The birds nesting sounds like how random thoughts taken in might speak to the subconscious is the only way I can see this.
I tried and tried to see how the pitcher with red water illustrates the subconscious. Is it supposed to illustrate extremely faint red water appearing clear, and the red part is so thin it is subconscious?
Are you seriously telling me you don't understand this concept?
Now you can exhibit your great teaching skills, by explaining it.
The red water represents your "off the word" thoughts. The clear water represents your "on the word" thoughts. By slowly displacing the red water with the clear water, you are eventually left with a glass that has no room left for red water. What's that phrase we used to say? Oh, yeah, Renew Your Mind.
Now, as far as the subconscious goes, the thinking was that all thoughts are spiritual in origin and what is called subconscious thought is really spiritual thought from one source or the other. Thus, you have no subconscious thought that is truly your own.
The red water represents your "off the word" thoughts. The clear water represents your "on the word" thoughts. By slowly displacing the red water with the clear water, you are eventually left with a glass that has no room left for red water. What's that phrase we used to say? Oh, yeah, Renew Your Mind.
Now, as far as the subconscious goes, the thinking was that all thoughts are spiritual in origin and what is call subconscious thought is really spiritual thought from one source of the other. Thus, you have no subconscious thought that is truly your own.
edit: I didn't write the... syllabus.
Just reading along and thanks! Cause Ive never heard the analogy.
Now, as far as the subconscious goes, the thinking was that all thoughts are spiritual in origin and what is call subconscious thought is really spiritual thought from one source of the other. Thus, you have no subconscious thought that is truly your own.
Thanks for that explanation. It is mostly new to me.
I think your explanation works for directly influenced thoughts, that is from a devil spirit oppression or possession.
But the indirect action of Satan would have lots of random thoughts in the environment and past learning that pop in without outside direct intelligent influence. We tend to think of these second types of thoughts as "our own."
This ownership, though, is not exactly clear, in the Neuro-physiological sense.
Again, I think little to zero free will is involved in this process.
One of the most useful tips I got from VPW on this was this often repeated phrase: "You can't control which thoughts hit your mind, but you can control which ones take up lodging in your mind."
It is super clear from the two Blue Book quotes that VPW believed in the subconscious.
Asking for clarification: now we are looking to Victor Wierwille's beliefs unrelated to biblical anything as to what's true or even godly?
1 hour ago, Mike said:
Thanks for that explanation. It is mostly new to me.
I think your explanation works for directly influenced thoughts, that is from a devil spirit oppression or possession.
But the indirect action of Satan would have lots of random thoughts in the environment and past learning that pop in without outside direct intelligent influence. We tend to think of these second types of thoughts as "our own."
Frankly, at this point, I reject the Wierwille-ist framing of the issue.
I believe Victor (who wasn't a winner, IMO) latched onto an entrenched but anachronistic religious concept that served (serves) to foster/highlight the divisive nature of the Wierwille private interpretation cult.
IOW, I believe, for the most part, the devil spirit influence/possession framing became (sub-)cultural hegemony which served to enable "leaders" to control everyday believers.
.... served to enable "leaders" to control everyday believers.
That certainly happened on the field. Many a power trip revolved around implied or stated discerning of devils.
Often leaders would totally forget about devil oppression, and focus on the more rare possession. That happens with nearly everyone here, also.
My take on VPW was that he taught much the same ideas that Jesus and his writers taught on devil spirits.
*/*/*
I have seen several old PFAL grads switch their whole vocabulary around, and instead of seeing devils everywhere and in all opponents, they now use the word "narcissism."
Narcissism is the New Age word for devil possessed, it seems. They see narcissism in lots of places and people, especially opponents.
I have seen several old PFAL grads switch their whole vocabulary around, and instead of seeing devils everywhere and in all opponents, they now use the word "narcissism."
Narcissism is the New Age word for devil possessed, it seems. They see narcissism in lots of places and people, especially opponents.
The difference being the DSM-5 recognizes Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Nothing New Age about it.
My take on VPW was that he taught much the same ideas that Jesus and his writers taught on devil spirits.
My take is he made it up as he went along, as you will notice with supporting the subconscious in PLAF, then claiming there was no such thing in the advanced class.
If I were attempting to explain NPD to someone preoccupied with devil spirits, to someone whose teeth are stained red with Kool-Aid, I might not use the terms narcissism and NPD. Those terms would be ineffectual and distracting for someone who has fully absorbed.
Rather, I might describe NPD as possession and oppression by python spirit, deceiver spirit and charmer spirit -- bullshonta lingo any duped grad could understand.
Any advanced class grad would get it, but not really, because the "teaching" on devil spirits is throughly shallow and superficial and contrived.
The difference being the DSM-5 recognizes Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Nothing New Age about it.
Narcissism is totally New Age in the mouths and from the keyboards of people who use that word in their daily lives and interactions.
I wasn't talking about how the academics handle it.
I mean that the common everyday usage of "narcissism" is pretty identical to the personal power plays that revolved around most phony discerning of devil spirits.
My take is he made it up as he went along, as you will notice with supporting the subconscious in PLAF, then claiming there was no such thing in the advanced class.
I did a quick search for only one word. subconscious, in two AC's and found none. It was not a thorough super search.
Are you "sure" he said something in one of the AC's contradicting this? I don't think you are. The AC references to "subconscious" are only vague memories in one poster here so far.
Do you see how rushed and incomplete your assessments are here?
So Jesus taught that cancer was a devil spirit, right?
I have looked into this a lot. I see from your bolded words above, you are far from the truth on this matter. You are way over simplistic.
I see how the weakness of cancer can lead to a devil spirit.
I can see how a devil spirit operations can lead to cancer.
I can see how some cancer cases are physical only. The advances in modern medicine here have helped to calm many fears previously connected to cancer.
I have been thinking similarly about schizophrenia. There is the physical and the spiritual, and sometimes they are interrelated. One can lead to the other, but not guaranteed.
If it were as simple as "cancer is a spirit" then there would be no need for spiritual discerning of spirits.
Narcissism is totally New Age in the mouths and from the keyboards of people who use that word in their daily lives and interactions.
.If you knew anything about narcissism you'd know it was on a spectrum. We all have a touch of it, some a bit more then others.
Not everyone is condescending, refuses to listen to others, and think of people as things, not people. Saint Vic did, but then he was a huge narcissist, have most of the symptoms.
54 minutes ago, Mike said:
I wasn't talking about how the academics handle it.
I mean that the common everyday usage of "narcissism" is pretty identical to the personal power plays that revolved around most phony discerning of devil spirits.
Yah, kinda like people who accuse others of hate and only seeing the negative side of things, refusing to see how negative they are.
I did a quick search for only one word. subconscious, in two AC's and found none. It was not a thorough super search.
Are you "sure" he said something in one of the AC's contradicting this? I don't think you are. The AC references to "subconscious" are only vague memories in one poster here so far.
Do you see how rushed and incomplete your assessments are here?
Right, Waysider remembered it wrong. Just like he remembered the red water clear water demonstration wrong./s
I have way more faith in Waysider's memory then I have in your word.
I have looked into this a lot. I see from your bolded words above, you are far from the truth on this matter. You are way over simplistic.
I see how the weakness of cancer can lead to a devil spirit.
I can see how a devil spirit operations can lead to cancer.
I can see how some cancer cases are physical only. The advances in modern medicine here have helped to calm many fears previously connected to cancer.
I have been thinking similarly about schizophrenia. There is the physical and the spiritual, and sometimes they are interrelated. One can lead to the other, but not guaranteed.
If it were as simple as "cancer is a spirit" then there would be no need for spiritual discerning of spirits.
And this addresses Saint Vic's claim that cancer is a devil spirit how?
You recall what I said about the longer the post the greater the con? Congratulations, you just proved it.
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waysider
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old
waysider
I fixed that for you.
Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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waysider
Are you seriously telling me you don't understand this concept?
Wow. Just. Wow!
"Out with the bad air, in with the good."
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Mike
Ok, I admit I don't get it.
Now you can exhibit your great teaching skills, by explaining it.
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Rocky
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Nathan_Jr
If the the subconscious is a fallacy, then habit patterns are fallacy.
Just another withered hand ill-fitted to a bloody glove.
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waysider
The red water represents your "off the word" thoughts. The clear water represents your "on the word" thoughts. By slowly displacing the red water with the clear water, you are eventually left with a glass that has no room left for red water. What's that phrase we used to say? Oh, yeah, Renew Your Mind.
Ship of Theseus
Now, as far as the subconscious goes, the thinking was that all thoughts are spiritual in origin and what is called subconscious thought is really spiritual thought from one source or the other. Thus, you have no subconscious thought that is truly your own.
edit: I didn't write the... syllabus.
Edited by waysiderspelling
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OldSkool
Just reading along and thanks! Cause Ive never heard the analogy.
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Mike
Thanks for that explanation. It is mostly new to me.
I think your explanation works for directly influenced thoughts, that is from a devil spirit oppression or possession.
But the indirect action of Satan would have lots of random thoughts in the environment and past learning that pop in without outside direct intelligent influence. We tend to think of these second types of thoughts as "our own."
This ownership, though, is not exactly clear, in the Neuro-physiological sense.
Again, I think little to zero free will is involved in this process.
One of the most useful tips I got from VPW on this was this often repeated phrase: "You can't control which thoughts hit your mind, but you can control which ones take up lodging in your mind."
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Mike
It is super clear from the two Blue Book quotes that VPW believed in the subconscious.
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Rocky
Asking for clarification: now we are looking to Victor Wierwille's beliefs unrelated to biblical anything as to what's true or even godly?
Frankly, at this point, I reject the Wierwille-ist framing of the issue.
I believe Victor (who wasn't a winner, IMO) latched onto an entrenched but anachronistic religious concept that served (serves) to foster/highlight the divisive nature of the Wierwille private interpretation cult.
IOW, I believe, for the most part, the devil spirit influence/possession framing became (sub-)cultural hegemony which served to enable "leaders" to control everyday believers.
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Mike
That certainly happened on the field. Many a power trip revolved around implied or stated discerning of devils.
Often leaders would totally forget about devil oppression, and focus on the more rare possession. That happens with nearly everyone here, also.
My take on VPW was that he taught much the same ideas that Jesus and his writers taught on devil spirits.
*/*/*
I have seen several old PFAL grads switch their whole vocabulary around, and instead of seeing devils everywhere and in all opponents, they now use the word "narcissism."
Edited by MikeNarcissism is the New Age word for devil possessed, it seems. They see narcissism in lots of places and people, especially opponents.
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waysider
So personality disorders are devil possession?
Now, where have I heard this before?
(Looks up page number in Advanced Class syllabus.)
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So_crates
The difference being the DSM-5 recognizes Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Nothing New Age about it.
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Nathan_Jr
"...on the field."
"...Jesus and his writers..."
"...grads..."
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So_crates
My take is he made it up as he went along, as you will notice with supporting the subconscious in PLAF, then claiming there was no such thing in the advanced class.
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waysider
Yeah, but only the ones who have since forgotten or weren't paying attention in the first place.
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So_crates
So Jesus taught that cancer was a devil spirit, right?
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Nathan_Jr
If I were attempting to explain NPD to someone preoccupied with devil spirits, to someone whose teeth are stained red with Kool-Aid, I might not use the terms narcissism and NPD. Those terms would be ineffectual and distracting for someone who has fully absorbed.
Rather, I might describe NPD as possession and oppression by python spirit, deceiver spirit and charmer spirit -- bullshonta lingo any duped grad could understand.
Any advanced class grad would get it, but not really, because the "teaching" on devil spirits is throughly shallow and superficial and contrived.
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Mike
Narcissism is totally New Age in the mouths and from the keyboards of people who use that word in their daily lives and interactions.
I wasn't talking about how the academics handle it.
I mean that the common everyday usage of "narcissism" is pretty identical to the personal power plays that revolved around most phony discerning of devil spirits.
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Mike
I did a quick search for only one word. subconscious, in two AC's and found none. It was not a thorough super search.
Are you "sure" he said something in one of the AC's contradicting this? I don't think you are. The AC references to "subconscious" are only vague memories in one poster here so far.
Do you see how rushed and incomplete your assessments are here?
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Mike
I have looked into this a lot. I see from your bolded words above, you are far from the truth on this matter. You are way over simplistic.
I see how the weakness of cancer can lead to a devil spirit.
I can see how a devil spirit operations can lead to cancer.
I can see how some cancer cases are physical only. The advances in modern medicine here have helped to calm many fears previously connected to cancer.
I have been thinking similarly about schizophrenia. There is the physical and the spiritual, and sometimes they are interrelated. One can lead to the other, but not guaranteed.
If it were as simple as "cancer is a spirit" then there would be no need for spiritual discerning of spirits.
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Nathan_Jr
"phony discerning of devil spirits"
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So_crates
.If you knew anything about narcissism you'd know it was on a spectrum. We all have a touch of it, some a bit more then others.
Not everyone is condescending, refuses to listen to others, and think of people as things, not people. Saint Vic did, but then he was a huge narcissist, have most of the symptoms.
Yah, kinda like people who accuse others of hate and only seeing the negative side of things, refusing to see how negative they are.
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So_crates
Right, Waysider remembered it wrong. Just like he remembered the red water clear water demonstration wrong./s
I have way more faith in Waysider's memory then I have in your word.
@waysider
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So_crates
And this addresses Saint Vic's claim that cancer is a devil spirit how?
You recall what I said about the longer the post the greater the con? Congratulations, you just proved it.
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