Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
Or are you thinking of some thing else?
I'm thinking about how big of a PITA you often are.
BTW, where was/is Victor Wierwille's peer reviews on his private interpretations of scripture?
I'm thinking about how big of a PITA you often are.
BTW, where was/is Victor Wierwille's peer reviews on his private interpretations of scripture?
Sorry for being a pain. I was trying to get your attention.
Looking for VPW's peer reviews is indicative of rejecting the 1942 promise.
A general phenomenon I have noticed is that grads will often accept the 1942 promise early as they take the class a few times. But by the time they have worked at HQ a few years, the 1942 promise is lost and the special kind of research done there is confused with normal research, which is FINDING via the 5-senses and reason.
The kind of research to be done there was to VERIFY what VPW had already found from God's guidance.
Since I didn't take the 1942 promise real seriously at first, I was ALWAYS in error as to the mission of TWI's Research Dept.
VPW taught against this in the tape and print record, but we all were slow to understand.
*/*/*/*
As for being a pain, it was to highlight how wrong you were in this assertion:
On 7/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Rocky said:
That MIGHT be the essence of what Victor Wierwille was trying to suppress when he beckoned PFLAP students to only read PFLAP collaterals. ...I'm thinking of you, Mike.
I listed 3 things that may have been the seed of your distorted view:
(1) Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
(2) Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
(3) Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
All these items are a tiny bit close to what you were saying, but all are innocent of your charges.
HOWEVER, not at all close to what you were charging was the fact that lots of outside reading was suggested and encouraged.
In the early 80s I remember reading, along with hundreds of other grads, Brother Andres’s “God’s Smuggler.”
Also during that time period I heard VPW suggest that the Harvard Classics were good to read, and that he really wanted all his top leaders to read them.
"The kind of research to be done there was to VERIFY what VPW had already found from God's guidance."
Verify via the five senses, of course. Yet so many of vic's cookies crumble, even when handled under the most generous empirical and spiritual scrutiny. To VERIFY errors, mistakes, lies, fictions, and bullshonta requires willful ignorance and deliberate dishonesty -- five senses dishonesty AND spiritual dishonesty.
"VPW taught against [REAL research] in the tape and print record, but we all were slow to understand.
Admitting this is not a good look, after all, it's called a RESEARCH ministry not a VERIFICATION ministry. Who could be blamed for being slow to understand 3=5? Absurd.
"(1) Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?"
A suggestion no less foolish and impractical. A mere alternate route to the same destructive destination. And who will privately interpret those epistles? Ol' VP will, that's who. It's still all about control.
"(2) Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?"
This is the culmination of all he had to teach? His final "lost" teaching? Crawl with the epistles, but run with the collaterals and classes?!?! Notice the conspicuous omission of his Advanced Class and its paper "keys" to walking with the spirit.
"(3) Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?"
No.**
"Also during that time period I heard VPW suggest that the Harvard Classics were good to read, and that he really wanted all his top leaders to read them."
I finally have insight into my fellowship commander's*** melodramatic declaration that civilization had reached it'll peak in the 19th century -- oh, how he longed to live in that great century!
Charles Eliot was a man limited to his period, and by the 1980s the Harvard Classics, though classic, were as incomplete as ever and woefully in need of updates. And who, having given all their spare income to the cult, could have afforded this 50-volume series?
-----
* Remember graduating from the 5th grade? Yeah, it's like that.
** I normally wouldn't speak for Rocky, but I'm confident I can here.
*** Headquarters. All that military imagery. Hey! I didn't organize this cult.
Sorry for being a pain. I was trying to get your attention.
Looking for VPW's peer reviews is indicative of rejecting the 1942 promise.
A general phenomenon I have noticed is that grads will often accept the 1942 promise early as they take the class a few times. But by the time they have worked at HQ a few years, the 1942 promise is lost and the special kind of research done there is confused with normal research, which is FINDING via the 5-senses and reason.
The kind of research to be done there was to VERIFY what VPW had already found from God's guidance.
Since I didn't take the 1942 promise real seriously at first, I was ALWAYS in error as to the mission of TWI's Research Dept.
VPW taught against this in the tape and print record, but we all were slow to understand.
*/*/*/*
As for being a pain, it was to highlight how wrong you were in this assertion:
I listed 3 things that may have been the seed of your distorted view:
(1) Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
(2) Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
(3) Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
All these items are a tiny bit close to what you were saying, but all are innocent of your charges.
HOWEVER, not at all close to what you were charging was the fact that lots of outside reading was suggested and encouraged.
In the early 80s I remember reading, along with hundreds of other grads, Brother Andres’s “God’s Smuggler.”
Also during that time period I heard VPW suggest that the Harvard Classics were good to read, and that he really wanted all his top leaders to read them.
There were others.
And this is the exact logic that RFR used to dismantle the Research department. “We aren’t seeking for the truth we already have the truth because 1942 promise”.
No need for any more of that pesky research evaluating theology, scripture, philosophical endeavors digging out truth.
All you need to do is listen and obey “The Teacher” and write PO Box 328 NK OH send in love notes along with your 15% ABS.
VPs reading lists included the 13th Tribe and The Myth of Six Million debunking the holocaust. He could also have been president of the Aryan Brotherhood. A minister according to Timothy’s standards? Not in a million years he didn’t fulfill the characteristics of husband of one wife and not being a drunk.
And this is the exact logic that RFR used to dismantle the Research department. “We aren’t seeking for the truth we already have the truth because 1942 promise”.
No need for any more of that pesky research evaluating theology, scripture, philosophical endeavors digging out truth.
All you need to do is listen and obey “The Teacher” and write PO Box 328 NK OH send in love notes along with your 15% ABS.
VPs reading lists included the 13th Tribe and The Myth of Six Million debunking the holocaust. He could also have been president of the Aryan Brotherhood. A minister according to Timothy’s standards? Not in a million years he didn’t fulfill the characteristics of husband of one wife and not being a drunk.
Yes, that's my position. Besides involuntary bodily functions my freewill is my freewill...whoa was that circular reasoning...hehe. but yes, that's what I believe.
Yes, that's my position. Besides involuntary bodily functions my freewill is my freewill...whoa was that circular reasoning...hehe. but yes, that's what I believe.
Morning. I think our freewill is influenced by other entities or events, etc. I dont feel that submission makes free will any less free.
I agree. Just because something influences us doesn't prove a lack of free will. We still have a choice of whether we bend with the influence or not.
But, you ask, what if we're unaware of the influence. Well, that doesn't reflect on free will. It reflects on the influencer. Your ability to act or not act remains, it's just been bypassed.
Another reason educating yourself is so important.
I agree. Just because something influences us doesn't prove a lack of free will. We still have a choice of whether we bend with the influence or not.
But, you ask, what if we're unaware of the influence. Well, that doesn't reflect on free will. It reflects on the influencer. Your ability to act or not act remains, it's just been bypassed.
Another reason educating yourself is so important.
This is a good, very brief look at a deep, nuanced and important issue to consider.
Where do our thoughts come from? Do we by our own volition generate thoughts? Or, do thoughts just arise? What can we control?
Think about a movie. Any movie. It doesn't matter if you've seen it or not. Pick one, any one. Ok, got it?
Now, where did THAT come from? Of the hundreds or thousands of movies you know, why did that one emerge in your thought? Did you choose it? Why Casablanca instead of Forest Gump?
Here's another one. Try to stop thinking. Clear your conscious mind of its contents. By your own free will make your thoughts stop.
You will notice the harder you try the worse it gets.
We are all conditioned. The script is there. Thoughts seem to arise on their own. It seems to me the first and most liberating thing to do is pay attention. See it.
The topic of this thread is more complicated than it appears, and I'm not finished considering it.
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waysider
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old
waysider
I fixed that for you.
Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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Mike
THAT which you described is a subtle, hidden belief system.
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Nathan_Jr
Except that it's not. It's just not.
It's a paradox. A figger of speech, see? It's not a hand that will fit in your wierwillian glove.
Victor stumbled on belief systems, too. He was wrong about atheism being a belief in not believing. How wrong? Turns out dead wrong. That's how.
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Rocky
I'm thinking about how big of a PITA you often are.
BTW, where was/is Victor Wierwille's peer reviews on his private interpretations of scripture?
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Mike
Sorry for being a pain. I was trying to get your attention.
Looking for VPW's peer reviews is indicative of rejecting the 1942 promise.
A general phenomenon I have noticed is that grads will often accept the 1942 promise early as they take the class a few times. But by the time they have worked at HQ a few years, the 1942 promise is lost and the special kind of research done there is confused with normal research, which is FINDING via the 5-senses and reason.
The kind of research to be done there was to VERIFY what VPW had already found from God's guidance.
Since I didn't take the 1942 promise real seriously at first, I was ALWAYS in error as to the mission of TWI's Research Dept.
VPW taught against this in the tape and print record, but we all were slow to understand.
*/*/*/*
As for being a pain, it was to highlight how wrong you were in this assertion:
I listed 3 things that may have been the seed of your distorted view:
(1) Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?
(2) Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?
(3) Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?
All these items are a tiny bit close to what you were saying, but all are innocent of your charges.
HOWEVER, not at all close to what you were charging was the fact that lots of outside reading was suggested and encouraged.
In the early 80s I remember reading, along with hundreds of other grads, Brother Andres’s “God’s Smuggler.”
Also during that time period I heard VPW suggest that the Harvard Classics were good to read, and that he really wanted all his top leaders to read them.
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Rocky
Good job, Mike. The opposite of persuasion.
One might think if you actually wanted to make positive headway in your Quixotic endeavors on GSC, you'd recognize THIS is an encouragement to YOU.
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waysider
I fixed that for you.
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Nathan_Jr
"grads"*
-----
"The kind of research to be done there was to VERIFY what VPW had already found from God's guidance."
Verify via the five senses, of course. Yet so many of vic's cookies crumble, even when handled under the most generous empirical and spiritual scrutiny. To VERIFY errors, mistakes, lies, fictions, and bullshonta requires willful ignorance and deliberate dishonesty -- five senses dishonesty AND spiritual dishonesty.
"VPW taught against [REAL research] in the tape and print record, but we all were slow to understand.
Admitting this is not a good look, after all, it's called a RESEARCH ministry not a VERIFICATION ministry. Who could be blamed for being slow to understand 3=5? Absurd.
"(1) Are you thinking of where VPW suggested in the film class that we put aside all our reading material for THREE MONTHS and read nothing but the CHURCH EPISTLES ?"
A suggestion no less foolish and impractical. A mere alternate route to the same destructive destination. And who will privately interpret those epistles? Ol' VP will, that's who. It's still all about control.
"(2) Are you thinking of at the end of his life VPW suggested to his top leaders (and all of us) that we master the foundational and intermediate classes and the written materials that come with them ?"
This is the culmination of all he had to teach? His final "lost" teaching? Crawl with the epistles, but run with the collaterals and classes?!?! Notice the conspicuous omission of his Advanced Class and its paper "keys" to walking with the spirit.
"(3) Are you thinking of the 20 year review of the collaterals that I did from 1998 to 2018 ?"
No.**
"Also during that time period I heard VPW suggest that the Harvard Classics were good to read, and that he really wanted all his top leaders to read them."
I finally have insight into my fellowship commander's*** melodramatic declaration that civilization had reached it'll peak in the 19th century -- oh, how he longed to live in that great century!
Charles Eliot was a man limited to his period, and by the 1980s the Harvard Classics, though classic, were as incomplete as ever and woefully in need of updates. And who, having given all their spare income to the cult, could have afforded this 50-volume series?
-----
* Remember graduating from the 5th grade? Yeah, it's like that.
** I normally wouldn't speak for Rocky, but I'm confident I can here.
*** Headquarters. All that military imagery. Hey! I didn't organize this cult.
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chockfull
And this is the exact logic that RFR used to dismantle the Research department. “We aren’t seeking for the truth we already have the truth because 1942 promise”.
No need for any more of that pesky research evaluating theology, scripture, philosophical endeavors digging out truth.
All you need to do is listen and obey “The Teacher” and write PO Box 328 NK OH send in love notes along with your 15% ABS.
VPs reading lists included the 13th Tribe and The Myth of Six Million debunking the holocaust. He could also have been president of the Aryan Brotherhood. A minister according to Timothy’s standards? Not in a million years he didn’t fulfill the characteristics of husband of one wife and not being a drunk.
Couldnt find a vomit emoji.
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OldSkool
By choosing not to participate in this discussion I effectively proven to myself that I do indeed have freewill.
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Nathan_Jr
Of course I have free will - I have no choice in the matter.
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Rocky
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Rocky
That's not the question. Of course you have SOME DEGREE of free will. But do you have 100 percent, unqualified free will?
Do you ever do anything, take any actions, make any decisions, contrary to what you wanted to do?
Also, on the tangential topic of whether Victor Wierwille conned you (and me) and thousands of others,
I recommend this newly released book. Nobody's Fool: Why We Get Taken In and What We Can Do About It. You might be able to find it in your local public library.
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Mike
This hilarious depiction of how free will works showed up in my newsfeed today:
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OldSkool
Yes, that's my position. Besides involuntary bodily functions my freewill is my freewill...whoa was that circular reasoning...hehe. but yes, that's what I believe.
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Nathan_Jr
Irony? ...Irony...
Hey!
....Irony, is that you?
...could've swore I heard her say something...
Oh, Eye-Row-Neeeee.... I can heeeaaarrrr you...
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waysider
I DON'T CARE
WHAT WIERWILLE TAUGHT YOU,
UNLEARN THAT... SHTUFF.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep. There she is.
I knew I heard her. I just KNEW it!
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Rocky
Hmmmm.... oh, really?
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OldSkool
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So_crates
I agree. Just because something influences us doesn't prove a lack of free will. We still have a choice of whether we bend with the influence or not.
But, you ask, what if we're unaware of the influence. Well, that doesn't reflect on free will. It reflects on the influencer. Your ability to act or not act remains, it's just been bypassed.
Another reason educating yourself is so important.
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OldSkool
Very well said, thx.
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Rocky
Good morning to you too, kind sir.
This is just one of the influences.
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Rocky
That's not EVEN what this thread was intended to do.
Discussion, not argumentation.
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Nathan_Jr
This is a good, very brief look at a deep, nuanced and important issue to consider.
Where do our thoughts come from? Do we by our own volition generate thoughts? Or, do thoughts just arise? What can we control?
Think about a movie. Any movie. It doesn't matter if you've seen it or not. Pick one, any one. Ok, got it?
Now, where did THAT come from? Of the hundreds or thousands of movies you know, why did that one emerge in your thought? Did you choose it? Why Casablanca instead of Forest Gump?
Here's another one. Try to stop thinking. Clear your conscious mind of its contents. By your own free will make your thoughts stop.
You will notice the harder you try the worse it gets.
We are all conditioned. The script is there. Thoughts seem to arise on their own. It seems to me the first and most liberating thing to do is pay attention. See it.
The topic of this thread is more complicated than it appears, and I'm not finished considering it.
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