But I have ongoing curiosity about a lot of things and try to stay open to changing my mind about some of those things.
Bravo!
This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usage, beleeef.
Curiosity, a seemingly rare and beautiful thing.
Does one have freedom to be curious? Freedom to inquire? Freedom to question? Freedom to explore and follow the evidence wherever it leads? Freedom to find out? Are these not the freedoms required for learning?
Actually, one of the things I discovered while working my little free will theory is that too much freedom could be a bad thing. One of the good things about a good habit is that it is hard to lose. It can hang in there for us and nag at us to perform it like an obedient robot.
The parameters that bind us in good ways and in bad ways are the brain's synapse connections and their strengths. These synapses are plastic and can change with our efforts, if those efforts aresmart enough and strong enough. I loved learning about this when I read "Rewire Your Anxious Brain: How to Use the Neuroscience of Fear to End Anxiety, Panic & Worry" by Pittman and Karle. "Use it or lose it" is how these connections grow stronger or are pruned back. Growing new connections to replace old ones like you say, takes practicing the new thought and action over and over again.
In austere and dangerous circumstances, however, slow and careful free will decisions are usually not called for, and emergency responses (all very robotic) must kick in sometimes, saving our lives.
The whole purpose of free will is to make it possible for us to respond to the Word even when our synapses are dead set against it. This takes just the right words and usually some repetition.
I see free will as a special case of advanced, self-directed learning. It is what makes it possible for us to learn a new response or a new habit. When free will is seen as a LEARNING MECHANISM then the question of why we have free will is answered: it's so we can make better decisions NEXT time by learning from our mistakes and persisting to try to get it better.
I see free will being depicted in this following song. It seems to depict both the robotic and the ability of going further, steering toward the better. The wheel here represents determinism, and is like a giant grain grinding machine, that cranks out most of life. The "try harder" is the emergence of free will in spite of the robot wheel's dictates. Notice the reference to God in there.
I like what you wrote Mike and the reference to God in the song below, "Big wheel turn by the grace of God."
Will power alone can take some people pretty far. I have found, however, that when it comes to spiritual matters (going from living in darkness to living in the light), free will combined with the Word of God and walking by the spirit of God within us allow for the greatest changes to happen in our lives. Eph 3:20
Thanks Mike for your post.
"The Wheel"
Songwriters: Jerry Garcia, Robert Hunter, Bill Kreutzmann
The wheel is turning
and you can’t slow down.
You can’t let go and you can’t hold on.
You can’t go back and you can’t stand still.
If the thunder don’t get you
then the lightning will.
Won’t you try just a little bit harder?
Couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
Won’t you try just a little bit harder?
Couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
Round, round robin run round,
got to get back to where you belong.
Little bit harder, just a little bit more.
A little bit further than you gone before.
The wheel is turning
and you can’t slow down.
You can’t let go and you can’t hold on.
You can’t go back and you can’t stand still.
If the thunder don’t get you
then the lightning will.
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod.
Big wheel turn by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turn ‘round
bound to cover just a little more ground.
The wheel is turning
and you can’t slow down
You can’t let go and you can’t hold on
You can’t go back and you can’t stand still
If the thunder don’t get you
then the lightning will
Won’t you try just a little bit harder
Couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
Won’t you try just a little bit harder
Couldn’t you try just a little bit more?
This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usage, beleeef.
Curiosity, a seemingly rare and beautiful thing.
Does one have freedom to be curious? Freedom to inquire? Freedom to question? Freedom to explore and follow the evidence wherever it leads? Freedom to find out? Are these not the freedoms required for learning?
Or must one hold questions in abeyance?
Eve considered some bunk info and paid dearly for it, but she also had access to God to ask and didn't. We don't have that advantage, and often we see through a glass darkly, so we need to do some considering and investigations. In the AC we were taught 16 keys and one of them was that "what we can know by the 5 senses God expects us to know."
We were taught in a few different places that "complaining to management" is a proper route to go. In the foundational class we were taught that the good servant Ananias initially objected to God's command to heal Paul's blindness. We were also taught that the angels were curious about the mystery gap between the Lord's sufferings and glory, and that they looked into it.
In a controlled cult, like the Way Corps became, any extra thinking is discouraged.
Eve considered some bunk info and paid dearly for it
She didn't consider very carefully. She beleeeved the first seductive asserted claim she heard, as did so many who beleeeved victor paul wierwille.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
but she also had access to God to ask and didn't.
To my point. She should have.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
We don't have that advantage
What advantage don't we have?
5 hours ago, Mike said:
and often we see through a glass darkly, so we need to do some considering and investigations.
Again, to my point.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
In the AC we were taught 16 keys and one of them was that "what we can know by the 5 senses God expects us to know."
The AC is replete with errors and deception and bullshonta. Those "keys" have been throughly refuted and debunked right here in these pages.
Is that what God expects? God, who is spirit, expects us to accumulate carnal, sensory knowledge? Then God should expect us to easily know the stupidity of four crucified - anyone who can read effectually by one of those senses knows the stupidity of that asserted claim.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
We were taught in a few different places that "complaining to management" is a proper route to go.
is that what you were taught? You would have been taught better to reject any "management" claiming spiritual authority.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
In the foundational class we were taught that the good servant Ananias initially objected to God's command to heal Paul's blindness. We were also taught that the angels were curious about the mystery gap between the Lord's sufferings and glory, and that they looked into it.
Is that what you were taught? So?
5 hours ago, Mike said:
In a controlled cult, like the Way Corps became, any extra thinking is discouraged.
The Way Corps is a tool of the cult founded by victor paul wierwille. The cult is The Way International, Inc. The Way Corps is a spiritually wicked offspring of a spiritually wicked carnal man born of a woman, victor paul wierwille.
Oh my. We appear to be in a slightly cynical morning today. Maybe due to lack of sleep from a sore shoulder.
I must exercise my free will, to be cheerful, and try not to pi$$ off my clients today.
I did not pick up anything cynical. Your comments are very understandable, seeing the confusion that has developed around free will for about a thousand years. Free will was over spiritualized long ago, and that notion seeped into the Western collective consciousness. The more carefully classical free will is looked at, the more it shows itself to be a man-made ball of confusion.
I think we ALL start serious thinking about free will with cynical perspectives, because it made so very little sense to us all our lives.
Eve considered some bunk info and paid dearly for it
My view is Eve is a representational character in the Judeo-Christian origin myth.
My belief is every human is subject to getting conned, and virtually ALL of us do get conned in some material way along our journey in this life.
Even in the origin myth, people should consider God did not immediately strike either Eve or Adam dead for having committed the "original sin."
They, again, even in this origin STORY (myth, disregarding whether it's true or not), the two of them become parents of the entire Homo Sapiens species.
Does one have freedom to be curious? Freedom to inquire? Freedom to question? Freedom to explore and follow the evidence wherever it leads? Freedom to find out? Are these not the freedoms required for learning?
I have freedom to be curious. Do you? Freedom to inquire? Depends on the resources at your disposal. Bookstores, public libraries, scientists and other academicians doing original research. The possibilities are endless.
I picked up a copy of Churchland's book on Conscience at my local public library today. My heart fluttered when I opened it up.
However, as relates to curiosity and your comment, I picked up another book from which I already obtained a hit of dopamine. Steven Kotler's The Art of Impossible.
I CAN and DO go further/farther than I was led in The Wierwille (private) Interpretation.
Edited by Rocky Add links, in case anyone is CURIOUS. ;)
Somehow, Ephesians 4:14 seems to relate to this discussion topic.
Perhaps Paul understood that individuals were not always in control of their own decisions.
14 Then we will no longer be infants,tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
The issue isn't necessarily, IMO, whether a person believes in the "great mystery" but whether the person has skills to discipline her/his mind.
In that regard, TWI wasn't helpful, but Marcus Aurelius can be.
Not only do emotions affect the body, the reverse is equally true. Emotions are heavily influenced by hormones (such as those of the menstrual cycle), sexual arousal, insomnia, hunger, exhaustion, sickness, and other bodily states.
De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 84). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
And those emotions can hijack our ability to make decisions we might make otherwise... i.e. being "hangry."
Eve considered some bunk info and paid dearly for it, but she also had access to God to ask and didn't. We don't have that advantage, and often we see through a glass darkly, so we need to do some considering and investigations. In the AC we were taught 16 keys and one of them was that "what we can know by the 5 senses God expects us to know."
In my research I found that too much free will would RUIN good habits !!!
All three videos are on track with my theory. We are saying the same things, but from differing fields. We only have partial free will and the rest is habit. In my theory I often call habits "robotic behavior."
I learned of Lisa Feldman Barrett about 4 years ago and was shocked at how she was saying the same thing as I was saying. I tried to get in touch with her but the Pandemic interfered. Thanks for the reminder to contact her.
*/*/*/*
I didn't understand you comment of "Btw, Mike, that is a story" regarding my mention of Key #4 from the AC.
*/*/*/*
Your last comment is EXTREMELY similar VPW's call that we all do a Spiritual Makeover in his last Way Magazine article, and then he repeated this same suggestion in his last Our Times Editorial, both in the same magazine issue.
He called for us to ask ourselves about ALL our beliefs: Where did I get this belief? Who taught it to me? Why do I believe it?
Do you remember me posting that last call from VPW to us to do our own Spiritual Makeovers?
The stronger your beliefs, the stronger your reasons
to question them regularly. Don’t simply believe everything
you think you believe.
Kelly, Kevin. Excellent Advice for Living (p. 161). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Here is something I wrote on this about 15 years ago:
In Dr’s LAST writings to us, his last magazine articles, both appearing in the July/Aug 1985 issue of the Way Magazine Dr issued a challenge to all us grads, twice.
The first one is in "Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice" on page 17, right column, in the upper half. There he says (with my highlighted fonts):
"You have to honestly come to the place that you're willing to keep asking yourself, 'Where did I learn what I believe? How did I get to the place where I believe what I believe today?' For the most part, men believe what they have received from tradition and not from directly reading it in the Word of God."
In other words, a self examination should be on-going. I see an implication here that we were NOT doing this at that time. I see that those who are quick to answer theological questions without first getting the whole story in view for a long series of examinations are STILL not experienced in self examinations of the kind Dr called for, which are complete doctrinal makeovers.
When Dr says "men" above I see him primarily referring to leadership of the ministry. I don't see him teaching here about denominational churchgoers outside the ministry. Dr is addressing us grads and he’s saying we were believing was the verbal traditions that grew up within the ministry, what I have called TVTs.
We were not (by that time) forming and maintaining beliefs from directly reading God's pure Word, the written material we were supplied in PFAL. We were forming beliefs not from written PFAL but from our own KJV or Greek research, the traditional approach, and drifting farther and farther from the written revelations God gave Dr and Dr gave us.
This is why in his last teaching (and on many previous occasions) Dr stresses the written forms of PFAL for mastery.
***
The second location of this challenge from Dr is in the Our Times Insight article on page 12, left column, lower half. There he writes:
"We must honestly come to the place of asking ourselves: Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word to separate truth from error."
The accuracy of the Word cannot be read from the KJV. The accuracy of the Word cannot be conjured up from stale memories, or learned from verbal traditions like sitting through the film class a lot of times. It is written in PFAL for us. PFAL is the genuine from which we can detect the counterfeit.
***
In addition to the twice occurrence of this challenge in one magazine, he also twice (once in each article) decries the "dark clouds that hover over us" due to the traditions of men.
I am convinced that the "us" Dr is referring to here is not rhetoric for "us human beings" nor for "us Christians throughout the world" but is referring to "us PFAL grads."
I believe the traditions Dr refers to here are not things like the trinity or salvation by works. He's nailing our whole scale reverting back to tradition of searching for truth in the writings of men like the KJV, other versions, or the critical Greek texts. That job had been essentially finished by October 1982, as Dr reported at Craig's installation and on that week's SNS tape. In both of those articles he was urging us to take the REAL Bible as our only rule for faith and practice, not some version.
***
In Session One Dr says that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God. Millions and millions of the world's population believe that their KJV or NIV or Greek texts are the Word of God.
So how come Dr said in Session One that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the Word of God?
It’s because the millions are WRONG and don’t know that those items are only mere tools to START finding God's will at best, and counterfeits at worst, if leaned on too heavily?
How many people know that God commissioned Dr to commit to writing His Word like it has not been known since the first century?
Hardly any.
THAT is the greatest secret in the world today!
The greatest literal secret in the world is that the written forms of PFAL comprise God's book, the Bible, the written Word of God.
***
THAT these items were printed twice in the same magazine should have arrested our attention!
THAT they also appeared in Dr's very last prepared articles should have arrested our attention.
They should have been the theme at the Rock that year at the very least,
but instead no one (hardly) even saw them.
I plead guilty to this.
Thank GOD! He's given us all a second chance here twenty years later!
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Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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Nathan_Jr
Bravo!
This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usage, beleeef.
Curiosity, a seemingly rare and beautiful thing.
Does one have freedom to be curious? Freedom to inquire? Freedom to question? Freedom to explore and follow the evidence wherever it leads? Freedom to find out? Are these not the freedoms required for learning?
Or must one hold questions in abeyance?
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Charity
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Mike
Eve considered some bunk info and paid dearly for it, but she also had access to God to ask and didn't. We don't have that advantage, and often we see through a glass darkly, so we need to do some considering and investigations. In the AC we were taught 16 keys and one of them was that "what we can know by the 5 senses God expects us to know."
We were taught in a few different places that "complaining to management" is a proper route to go. In the foundational class we were taught that the good servant Ananias initially objected to God's command to heal Paul's blindness. We were also taught that the angels were curious about the mystery gap between the Lord's sufferings and glory, and that they looked into it.
In a controlled cult, like the Way Corps became, any extra thinking is discouraged.
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Mike
My pleasure, ma'am.
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Nathan_Jr
She didn't consider very carefully. She beleeeved the first seductive asserted claim she heard, as did so many who beleeeved victor paul wierwille.
To my point. She should have.
What advantage don't we have?
Again, to my point.
The AC is replete with errors and deception and bullshonta. Those "keys" have been throughly refuted and debunked right here in these pages.
Is that what God expects? God, who is spirit, expects us to accumulate carnal, sensory knowledge? Then God should expect us to easily know the stupidity of four crucified - anyone who can read effectually by one of those senses knows the stupidity of that asserted claim.
is that what you were taught? You would have been taught better to reject any "management" claiming spiritual authority.
Is that what you were taught? So?
The Way Corps is a tool of the cult founded by victor paul wierwille. The cult is The Way International, Inc. The Way Corps is a spiritually wicked offspring of a spiritually wicked carnal man born of a woman, victor paul wierwille.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Mike
I did not pick up anything cynical. Your comments are very understandable, seeing the confusion that has developed around free will for about a thousand years. Free will was over spiritualized long ago, and that notion seeped into the Western collective consciousness. The more carefully classical free will is looked at, the more it shows itself to be a man-made ball of confusion.
I think we ALL start serious thinking about free will with cynical perspectives, because it made so very little sense to us all our lives.
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Rocky
My view is Eve is a representational character in the Judeo-Christian origin myth.
My belief is every human is subject to getting conned, and virtually ALL of us do get conned in some material way along our journey in this life.
Even in the origin myth, people should consider God did not immediately strike either Eve or Adam dead for having committed the "original sin."
They, again, even in this origin STORY (myth, disregarding whether it's true or not), the two of them become parents of the entire Homo Sapiens species.
Therefore, God still loved them.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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Rocky
I have freedom to be curious. Do you? Freedom to inquire? Depends on the resources at your disposal. Bookstores, public libraries, scientists and other academicians doing original research. The possibilities are endless.
I picked up a copy of Churchland's book on Conscience at my local public library today. My heart fluttered when I opened it up.
I also picked up Alex Mar's book, Seventy Times Seven and Barbara Kingsolver's Demon Copperhead. I read a few pages of Kingsolver's book (my first time reading any of her writing) and was amazed. No wonder she wins awards.
However, as relates to curiosity and your comment, I picked up another book from which I already obtained a hit of dopamine. Steven Kotler's The Art of Impossible.
I CAN and DO go further/farther than I was led in The Wierwille (private) Interpretation.
Edited by RockyAdd links, in case anyone is CURIOUS. ;)
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Rocky
Somehow, Ephesians 4:14 seems to relate to this discussion topic.
Perhaps Paul understood that individuals were not always in control of their own decisions.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
The issue isn't necessarily, IMO, whether a person believes in the "great mystery" but whether the person has skills to discipline her/his mind.
In that regard, TWI wasn't helpful, but Marcus Aurelius can be.
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Mike
How so? Was ti the Table of Contents?
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Rocky
The chapter titles are intriguing. The epigraphs to each chapter are also.
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Rocky
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Rocky
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Rocky
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Rocky
Not only do emotions affect the body, the reverse is equally true. Emotions are heavily influenced by hormones (such as those of the menstrual cycle), sexual arousal, insomnia, hunger, exhaustion, sickness, and other bodily states.
De Waal, Frans . Mama's Last Hug: Animal Emotions and What They Tell Us about Ourselves (p. 84). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
And those emotions can hijack our ability to make decisions we might make otherwise... i.e. being "hangry."
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Rocky
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Rocky
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Rocky
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Rocky
Btw, Mike, that is a story.
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Rocky
The stronger your beliefs, the stronger your reasons
to question them regularly. Don’t simply believe everything
you think you believe.
Kelly, Kevin. Excellent Advice for Living (p. 161). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Mike
Rocky, I absolutely LOVED those 3 videos.
In my research I found that too much free will would RUIN good habits !!!
All three videos are on track with my theory. We are saying the same things, but from differing fields. We only have partial free will and the rest is habit. In my theory I often call habits "robotic behavior."
I learned of Lisa Feldman Barrett about 4 years ago and was shocked at how she was saying the same thing as I was saying. I tried to get in touch with her but the Pandemic interfered. Thanks for the reminder to contact her.
*/*/*/*
I didn't understand you comment of "Btw, Mike, that is a story" regarding my mention of Key #4 from the AC.
*/*/*/*
Your last comment is EXTREMELY similar VPW's call that we all do a Spiritual Makeover in his last Way Magazine article, and then he repeated this same suggestion in his last Our Times Editorial, both in the same magazine issue.
He called for us to ask ourselves about ALL our beliefs: Where did I get this belief? Who taught it to me? Why do I believe it?
Do you remember me posting that last call from VPW to us to do our own Spiritual Makeovers?
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Mike
Here is something I wrote on this about 15 years ago:
In Dr’s LAST writings to us, his last magazine articles, both appearing in the July/Aug 1985 issue of the Way Magazine Dr issued a challenge to all us grads, twice.
The first one is in "Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice" on page 17, right column, in the upper half. There he says (with my highlighted fonts):
"You have to honestly come to the place that you're willing to keep asking yourself, 'Where did I learn what I believe? How did I get to the place where I believe what I believe today?' For the most part, men believe what they have received from tradition and not from directly reading it in the Word of God."
In other words, a self examination should be on-going. I see an implication here that we were NOT doing this at that time. I see that those who are quick to answer theological questions without first getting the whole story in view for a long series of examinations are STILL not experienced in self examinations of the kind Dr called for, which are complete doctrinal makeovers.
When Dr says "men" above I see him primarily referring to leadership of the ministry. I don't see him teaching here about denominational churchgoers outside the ministry. Dr is addressing us grads and he’s saying we were believing was the verbal traditions that grew up within the ministry, what I have called TVTs.
We were not (by that time) forming and maintaining beliefs from directly reading God's pure Word, the written material we were supplied in PFAL. We were forming beliefs not from written PFAL but from our own KJV or Greek research, the traditional approach, and drifting farther and farther from the written revelations God gave Dr and Dr gave us.
This is why in his last teaching (and on many previous occasions) Dr stresses the written forms of PFAL for mastery.
***
The second location of this challenge from Dr is in the Our Times Insight article on page 12, left column, lower half. There he writes:
"We must honestly come to the place of asking ourselves: Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word to separate truth from error."
The accuracy of the Word cannot be read from the KJV. The accuracy of the Word cannot be conjured up from stale memories, or learned from verbal traditions like sitting through the film class a lot of times. It is written in PFAL for us. PFAL is the genuine from which we can detect the counterfeit.
***
In addition to the twice occurrence of this challenge in one magazine, he also twice (once in each article) decries the "dark clouds that hover over us" due to the traditions of men.
I am convinced that the "us" Dr is referring to here is not rhetoric for "us human beings" nor for "us Christians throughout the world" but is referring to "us PFAL grads."
I believe the traditions Dr refers to here are not things like the trinity or salvation by works. He's nailing our whole scale reverting back to tradition of searching for truth in the writings of men like the KJV, other versions, or the critical Greek texts. That job had been essentially finished by October 1982, as Dr reported at Craig's installation and on that week's SNS tape. In both of those articles he was urging us to take the REAL Bible as our only rule for faith and practice, not some version.
***
In Session One Dr says that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God. Millions and millions of the world's population believe that their KJV or NIV or Greek texts are the Word of God.
So how come Dr said in Session One that the greatest secret in the world today is that the Bible is the Word of God?
It’s because the millions are WRONG and don’t know that those items are only mere tools to START finding God's will at best, and counterfeits at worst, if leaned on too heavily?
How many people know that God commissioned Dr to commit to writing His Word like it has not been known since the first century?
Hardly any.
THAT is the greatest secret in the world today!
The greatest literal secret in the world is that the written forms of PFAL comprise God's book, the Bible, the written Word of God.
***
THAT these items were printed twice in the same magazine should have arrested our attention!
THAT they also appeared in Dr's very last prepared articles should have arrested our attention.
They should have been the theme at the Rock that year at the very least,
but instead no one (hardly) even saw them.
I plead guilty to this.
Thank GOD! He's given us all a second chance here twenty years later!
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Rocky
It's not anything but a story you told. No qualification as to whether it's true or not.
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Rocky
No. I don't input your posts into my mental database, sorry.
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