Part of the reason for starting this thread was to be able to provide a different view of the subject. Since the thinking of the way has dominated the thought pattern. Even a search of the title brings up vpws book, and not much on the different answer.
Part of the reason for starting this thread was to be able to provide a different view of the subject. Since the thinking of the way has dominated the thought pattern. Even a search of the title brings up vpws book, and not much on the different answer.
Regarding what Wierwille actually taught. I agreed with him when he taught from the actual bible, but I did NOT agree with him when he did NOT. For example, as I was leaving TWI or soon after, I even wrote a teaching which I handed out to people with the title, "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". That is one of the chapters of my recent biblical teaching book with some editing of this chapter as I learned more. As an example, that I did NOT agree with him on this subject. I heard him teach from a video as I was driving my car. He agreed with the Roman Catholic church that the Pope was the vicar of Christ. Yes, the Pope and Wierwille could be the head of a corporation, but NOT the spiritual head of the body of Christ.
Because I read from the bible and have a brain and even know where my brain is. I believe my brain is inside my head, while even knowing where my head is. With help of 2 hands connected to 2 arms. In doing a Google search, this website says the majority of U.S. adults say they believe in heaven and hell. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/
Hell among Christians is often believed to be eternal punishment or torment. I instead see from reading the bible with the help of a very good biblical study software program that the word hell should be translated the grave or the place of the dead. I do not think that followers of Jesus Christ should believe that people who did not believe in Jesus Christ with death will go immediately to hell with eternal torment. Instead I believe in a future resurrection of judgement as written in Revelation 20:11-15.
And, of course, four crucified, six denials, crowing cocks crowed differently in “Bible times,” boundaries of the mind, lesbian sex between Eve and a snake, Jesus was given a bastard bar mitzvah, and on and on and on…. Those and thousands of other claims and assertions are NOT backed up with Biblical textual evidence.
I think heaven and hell are the same thing, same place
eternal torment? I don't think so
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
this does not say anything about this happening to everyone at the same time
At least cman does NOT believe in eternal torment with me agreeing with him on this. It looks like cman quoted from the New International Version Revelation 20:11-15. The next verses in the book of Revelation show a new heaven and a new earth from chapter 21:1-4.
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (New International Version)
I do not think we have already had this with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
who said anything about "we have already had this with me"?
??
Obviously, at least to people like me or Mark and other people. We are not in the new heaven and earth as read in Revelation chapter 21. In the new heaven and earth, people will not experience pain and sorrow, like people sometimes have in this age or period of time. Revelation chapter 21 follows the judgement at the end of chapter 20, which you quoted from.
When I typed "I do not think we have already had this with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body". I was referring to humanity is not in the new heaven and earth, where there will be no pain and sorrow like humanity sometimes has in the age or period of time.
Have a good day in believing what ever you want to believe.
who said anything about "we have already had this with me"?
??
I think he was saying:
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
Good editing by Mike. Yes, I often edit what I type. Similar to the editing by Mike. Only a few words typed by me (Mark) now.
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
Since I don't often get the chance to say it, I'll say it now.
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
So.....
doesn't mean others have not just because you haven't
I wonder if we had an earthquake or a firestorm, would we believe we had a new heaven and a new earth? Especially a new earth. Perhaps only if we wanted to do this to our physical heads.
I wonder should we adapt this perspective of knowing when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth?
Honestly, I do not think we now have a new heaven and a new earth and I do NOT know when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth. Is it OK to think this way or should I apologize for my perspective and thoughts? Have a good day and night.
I guess you boys are the beginning and end of all knowledge and wisdom.
You know, there might be more than you think.
Thank you very much for calling old or older men, boys. Regarding learning from other people. Should we learn from people who believe that the word "hell", as sometimes read in the bible, is eternal torment for most of humanity after we breath our last physical breath? Perhaps only if we view biblical words like this. I am sorry for typing my views to you, but I do not think "hell" is eternal torment. I instead think the word "hell" represents the grave or the place of the dead.
Yes, I learn from other people. For example, the Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary with regard to subjects of the bible. I also have learned the definitions of the Greek words that the New Testament was originally written from, from the Thayer's Greek Lexicon and the Vine's Expository Dictionary. I also learn on other subjects by watching YouTube videos. For example, I primarily learned how to use the Adobe InDesign software program to layout my biblical teaching book and get it ready for printing by watching YouTube videos with one specific video that covered book layout with the most detail.
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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cman
Part of the reason for starting this thread was to be able to provide a different view of the subject. Since the thinking of the way has dominated the thought pattern. Even a search of the title brings up vpws book, and not much on the different answer.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Regarding what Wierwille actually taught. I agreed with him when he taught from the actual bible, but I did NOT agree with him when he did NOT. For example, as I was leaving TWI or soon after, I even wrote a teaching which I handed out to people with the title, "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". That is one of the chapters of my recent biblical teaching book with some editing of this chapter as I learned more. As an example, that I did NOT agree with him on this subject. I heard him teach from a video as I was driving my car. He agreed with the Roman Catholic church that the Pope was the vicar of Christ. Yes, the Pope and Wierwille could be the head of a corporation, but NOT the spiritual head of the body of Christ.
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cman
How could you tell the difference?
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
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Mark Sanguinetti
Because I read from the bible and have a brain and even know where my brain is. I believe my brain is inside my head, while even knowing where my head is. With help of 2 hands connected to 2 arms. In doing a Google search, this website says the majority of U.S. adults say they believe in heaven and hell. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/
Hell among Christians is often believed to be eternal punishment or torment. I instead see from reading the bible with the help of a very good biblical study software program that the word hell should be translated the grave or the place of the dead. I do not think that followers of Jesus Christ should believe that people who did not believe in Jesus Christ with death will go immediately to hell with eternal torment. Instead I believe in a future resurrection of judgement as written in Revelation 20:11-15.
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Nathan_Jr
And, of course, four crucified, six denials, crowing cocks crowed differently in “Bible times,” boundaries of the mind, lesbian sex between Eve and a snake, Jesus was given a bastard bar mitzvah, and on and on and on…. Those and thousands of other claims and assertions are NOT backed up with Biblical textual evidence.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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cman
I think heaven and hell are the same thing, same place
eternal torment? I don't think so
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
this does not say anything about this happening to everyone at the same time
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Mark Sanguinetti
At least cman does NOT believe in eternal torment with me agreeing with him on this. It looks like cman quoted from the New International Version Revelation 20:11-15. The next verses in the book of Revelation show a new heaven and a new earth from chapter 21:1-4.
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (New International Version)
I do not think we have already had this with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
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cman
I can't seem to follow any of this from you mark
who said anything about "we have already had this with me"?
??
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Mark Sanguinetti
Obviously, at least to people like me or Mark and other people. We are not in the new heaven and earth as read in Revelation chapter 21. In the new heaven and earth, people will not experience pain and sorrow, like people sometimes have in this age or period of time. Revelation chapter 21 follows the judgement at the end of chapter 20, which you quoted from.
When I typed "I do not think we have already had this with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body". I was referring to humanity is not in the new heaven and earth, where there will be no pain and sorrow like humanity sometimes has in the age or period of time.
Have a good day in believing what ever you want to believe.
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cman
ok, here we go
JC has to come back a second time because somehow, he didn't get it all done the first time.
This contradicts everything in Paul's writings and the others, John, Peter, James, the gospels...etc.... So we are not complete? Righteous now?
Even the basics of pfal contradict itself if you hold to some kind of second coming.
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Mike
I think he was saying:
I do not think we have already had [the fulfillment of] this [prophecy in Revelation 21:4 mentioning pain ending,] with me sometimes experiencing pain with my physical body.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Good editing by Mike. Yes, I often edit what I type. Similar to the editing by Mike. Only a few words typed by me (Mark) now.
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WordWolf
Since I don't often get the chance to say it, I'll say it now.
I agree with Mike on this.
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cman
So.....
doesn't mean others have not just because you haven't
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cman
John saw it
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Mark Sanguinetti
I wonder if we had an earthquake or a firestorm, would we believe we had a new heaven and a new earth? Especially a new earth. Perhaps only if we wanted to do this to our physical heads.
I wonder should we adapt this perspective of knowing when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth?
Honestly, I do not think we now have a new heaven and a new earth and I do NOT know when humanity will have a new heaven and a new earth. Is it OK to think this way or should I apologize for my perspective and thoughts? Have a good day and night.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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cman
I guess you boys are the beginning and end of all knowledge and wisdom.
You know, there might be more than you think.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you very much for calling old or older men, boys.
Regarding learning from other people. Should we learn from people who believe that the word "hell", as sometimes read in the bible, is eternal torment for most of humanity after we breath our last physical breath? Perhaps only if we view biblical words like this. 
I am sorry for typing my views to you, but I do not think "hell" is eternal torment. I instead think the word "hell" represents the grave or the place of the dead.
Yes, I learn from other people. For example, the Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary with regard to subjects of the bible. I also have learned the definitions of the Greek words that the New Testament was originally written from, from the Thayer's Greek Lexicon and the Vine's Expository Dictionary. I also learn on other subjects by watching YouTube videos. For example, I primarily learned how to use the Adobe InDesign software program to layout my biblical teaching book and get it ready for printing by watching YouTube videos with one specific video that covered book layout with the most detail.
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cman
so hey ? the second coming is a lie, not true, a figment? of the imagination
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cman
What makes you think John was talking about you?
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Mike
What makes you think that, I was thinking that, John was talking about me?
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Mike
cman, if you check the context, I was translating what Mark said to you.
He had said it in highly abbreviated form, and I supplied the missing words.
The other posters thought that my translation was spot on.
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cman
so .....
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