What do you mean by "as we know it" at the end of your above statement?
Well... as God has already done it through Jesus Christ, it's a done deal, time is no factor to God for anyone to be raised from the dead. However, we see it as time, lots of time it seems. As each person dies, like graveyard dead, they are raised.
And then there is dyeing before we die, where we are born again... as the saying goes....
That does not say everyone at the same time as time as we know it...
What about the following - looks like everyone at the same time:
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
~ ~ ~ ~
3 hours ago, cman said:
Well... as God has already done it through Jesus Christ, it's a done deal, time is no factor to God for anyone to be raised from the dead. However, we see it as time, lots of time it seems. As each person dies, like graveyard dead, they are raised.
And then there is dyeing before we die, where we are born again... as the saying goes....
your statement seems contradictory with the verses you quoted (see the following) - they indicate there is a sequence - thus time is a factor:
On 4/7/2023 at 2:10 PM, cman said:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
King James Version
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
On 4/7/2023 at 9:10 PM, cman said:
So, we are seated in the heavenlies, Christ in you, now we are sons of God, and all that. And then we have to take a nap, sleep, at the end of our lives until 1000's of years till we meet the Lord? Does this make any kind of sense? About love? Salvation? Saved?
I'm not so smart you know, but I can see a few things....it has to be simple, easy for me to get it... I think it is
On 4/9/2023 at 10:35 AM, cman said:
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
The tomb of Jesus was empty…“in the likeness of his resurrection” - so, I was wondering – my mom & dad passed away and were cremated, their internment is at a memorial cemetery in vegas – and I had a brother-in-law who received a traditional burial in the cemetery near the family church.
In light of your earlier posts indicating there's no time factor - and as a person dies, they are raised, so if I had their graves exhumed right now - would I find any remains?
~ ~ ~ ~
On 4/8/2023 at 9:21 AM, cman said:
there is no "return" of Christ, there is a coming, that is different
Fascinating subject. The symbolism and figurative language can make some things in the Bible hard to decipher no doubt.
One indication from the New Testament that the deceased are aware or conscious but the body is dead is from Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus(Luke Chapter 16:vs19-31) In the parable Jesus described the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus) dying. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom which was a pleasant place to be. The rich man went to Hades where he was tormented. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man but there was a great distance between them.
I forget how this story is described in ATDAN book by VPW. Some say that it was just a story Jesus used to make a moral point but they imply that the description of Sheol was not literal. Some commentators see Sheol with two compartments: Hades being the compartment reserved for the wicked and Abraham's bosom or paradise being the compartment where the righteous go until the resurrection.
Interesting Exidor and this parable is explained in one of the chapters of the biblical teaching book, "Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ". The chapter is named "The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures".
Quote
Of the ten New Testament usages of the Greek word “hades”, the only usage which has this mystic Greek word associated to fire with torment after the death of a person is read in Luke 16:19-31 with “hades” in Luke 16:23. The whole of this story is the parable of a poor man named Lazarus and a rich man. As a confirmation that this is a parable and not literal truth, the Greek word for parable is “parabolee” with Strong’s NT:3850. There are 18 usages of this Greek word for parable in the gospel of Luke. With 50 usages of this word in the New Testament, this equals 36% of all usages of the Greek word for parable is in the gospel of Luke. Parables are stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson often told by Jesus Christ. They are figures of speech that use figurative language in a story to illustrate a spiritual lesson. For even Jesus’ disciples, who later became apostles, sometimes they were confused as to the meaning and needed additional explanation as read in Mathew 13:36.
The gospel of Luke was written by Luke who was a physician by his profession. Luke was a Gentile and likely the only author of a New Testament book who did not have any Jewish descent. His two writings are believed to be Acts of the Apostles and the book of Luke. Luke was not an apostle of Jesus Christ, which would involve being an eye witness of Jesus Christ’s resurrected body. He was simply a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and worked with Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles and was considered a loving person and likely a friend of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11, Philemon 1:24 and Colossians 4:14). Historically knowledgeable people have noted that Luke had a very good knowledge of the New Testament Koine Greek language, while also likely being familiar with the ancient Greek culture.
This parable of Jesus Christ written by Luke does not match any actual historical records from the Old Testament. It is symbolic to let people know that they should not be greedy, while instead being concerned about the poor and sick. And this is the main point of Luke chapter 16. As an example, it says in Luke 16:13, “…You cannot serve both God and money.” (NIV®) Then in Luke 16:14 it says “The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.” (NIV®) This shows us that the following verses were addressed to the Pharisees who loved money and not God, and not common everyday people and especially not Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
In Luke 16:22 it says both a beggar and a rich man died. In Luke 16:22-23 it has the poor man carried to Abraham and the rich man in “hades” while being in agony in fire. In Luke 16:24 the rich man calls to Abraham and says “…Father Abraham, have pity on me...” (NIV®). This parable even paints a picture of Abraham as Father God. This symbolic writing also has Abraham speaking to the rich man. In reality Abraham does not have the role of God the Father or Jesus Christ his Son. Otherwise, Abraham who lived years before Jesus Christ would need to be raised from the dead with the authority of God the Father or his Son Jesus Christ prior to Jesus Christ being raised from the dead. There are no Old Testament verses with Abraham being raised from the dead. Instead, we only have verses showing his death.
Genesis 25:7-11
7 Altogether, Abraham lived a hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. 9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite, 10 the field Abraham had bought from the Hittites. There Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah. 11 After Abraham's death, God blessed his son Isaac, who then lived near Beer Lahai Roi. (NIV®)
The following is the copyright information from the quoted book. I wonder who that author is?? While posting on Grease Spot Cafe, I could instead be called Marky Spaghetti and could or would even consider being called that a compliment.
I forget how this story is described in ATDAN book by VPW. Some say that it was just a story Jesus used to make a moral point but they imply that the description of Sheol was not literal.
It took me a long time to understand the way ADAN handles this story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
I now see it as a cultural thing.
The people loved parables, and Jesus reached them often that way.
Imagine yourself in a movie theater, about to see a drama or something. The lights go out, and a cartoon comes on. What happens? The people love it and laugh and applaud as the Merry Melodies play. Then everyone eats up the talking animals like Bugs Bunny cracking jokes, and that Wiley Coyote gets smashed by a giant heavy rock, only to get up and continue the chase.
No one gets the idea from the cartoon that animals can really talk.
When Jesus ran the Parables Reel at his shows, the people loved it! Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk.
They just did not have the centuries of twisted training to think that the dead are alive now. They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting.
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Fascinating subject. The symbolism and figurative language can make some things in the Bible hard to decipher no doubt.
One indication from the New Testament that the deceased are aware or conscious but the body is dead is from Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus(Luke Chapter 16:vs19-31) In the parable Jesus described the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus) dying. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom which was a pleasant place to be. The rich man went to Hades where he was tormented. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man but there was a great distance between them.
I forget how this story is described in ATDAN book by VPW. Some say that it was just a story Jesus used to make a moral point but they imply that the description of Sheol was not literal. Some commentators see Sheol with two compartments: Hades being the compartment reserved for the wicked and Abraham's bosom or paradise being the compartment where the righteous go until the resurrection.
I believe you are correct, Exidor.
Sheol is used some 66 times in the OT, translated as realm of the dead or grave…I find it fascinating that ancient Israel was not interested in the dead – the way other ancient cultures were…makes me think of books of Job and Ecclesiastes – Yahweh is not God of the dead but of the living…they walked by faith in this life…not to read too much into it – but was there an underlying thought that what followed after one’s life was relatively unimportant? Don’t mind me – just thinking out loud here.
Hades mentioned in the parable of Luke 16 is usually associated with the eternal place of punishment as seen in Luke 10:15 andMatthew 11:20 - 24 .
Luke 16 has several parables and as you mentioned we’re not supposed to understand them as literal. So, they’re not true to fact but to principle – with the principle of reversal as shown in Luke 16: 27, 28 – reminding people they should repent while they still can (while they’re still alive.
~ ~ ~ ~
Way
I dig your picture of Exidor. He was one of my favorite recurring characters on Mork and Mindy…one episode, Mork returned home and was repeating Exidor’s instructions even mimicking his delivery: all aliens must report to the immigraaaaaation bureau…oh and excuse my bad manners I should have welcomed you to Grease Spot with nanu nanu.
Edited by T-Bone Going to hell in an Easter Basket
Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience.
The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate a little on that.
Meditate a little on this:
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
That Jesus told parables, and that Aesop told fables hundreds of years prior, tells us little or nothing about what the people loved. To assert such an opinionated, baseless claim is to tip one’s hand to reveal four jokers and a 2 of clubs.
There is a reason why Jesus spoke in parable. It has nothing to do with audience preference.
“Jesus was given a bastard bar mitzvah.”
”Cocks crowed at different times of the day in ‘Bible times.’”
”Four Crucified.”
Are these parables, lies or lines of bullshonta? Why do people love this fiction? What lessons do they teach, if any?
It took me a long time to understand the way ADAN handles this story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
I now see it as a cultural thing.
The people loved parables, and Jesus reached them often that way.
apparently you STILL have a misunderstanding of not only ADAN but the Lazarus parable
2 hours ago, Mike said:
Imagine yourself in a movie theater, about to see a drama or something. The lights go out, and a cartoon comes on. What happens? The people love it and laugh and applaud as the Merry Melodies play. Then everyone eats up the talking animals like Bugs Bunny cracking jokes, and that Wiley Coyote gets smashed by a giant heavy rock, only to get up and continue the chase.
No one gets the idea from the cartoon that animals can really talk.
When Jesus ran the Parables Reel at his shows, the people loved it! Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk.
Please provide historical evidence for The Jesus Show, preferably specific Parables Reel. So far you've presented a gag reel of dubious origin... time-traveling Tik Toks will be acceptable provided Jerusalem et al - both past and present don't have any security concerns and restrictions to you posting those Tik Toks.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
They just did not have the centuries of twisted training to think that the dead are alive now. They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting.
training = the action of teaching a person a particular skill or type of behavior.
who was providing the centuries of this twisted training ?
Do you have documentation / evidence to support that assertion?
1 hour ago, Mike said:
Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience.
Are you the spokesperson for Jesus' intentions?
1 hour ago, Mike said:
The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate a little on that.
Please provide Scripture references to show people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate on what providing this documentation means...it does NOT mean a long essay.
Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk.
tricked = to deceive someone, often as a part of a plan.
Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory on this.
Please provide scriptural evidence to support your theory that someone or some group had infiltrated the Jewish community and had a scheme to get Israelites to think dead people can talk...no essays please - just Scripture will do.
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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cman
it's not about you mark, believe it or not
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cman
Well... as God has already done it through Jesus Christ, it's a done deal, time is no factor to God for anyone to be raised from the dead. However, we see it as time, lots of time it seems. As each person dies, like graveyard dead, they are raised.
And then there is dyeing before we die, where we are born again... as the saying goes....
Edited by cmanLink to comment
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T-Bone
What about the following - looks like everyone at the same time:
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
~ ~ ~ ~
your statement seems contradictory with the verses you quoted (see the following) - they indicate there is a sequence - thus time is a factor:
The tomb of Jesus was empty…“in the likeness of his resurrection” - so, I was wondering – my mom & dad passed away and were cremated, their internment is at a memorial cemetery in vegas – and I had a brother-in-law who received a traditional burial in the cemetery near the family church.
In light of your earlier posts indicating there's no time factor - and as a person dies, they are raised, so if I had their graves exhumed right now - would I find any remains?
~ ~ ~ ~
How are they different?
“return” is come or go back to a place.
“coming” is an arrival or approach.
What’s the difference?
Edited by T-Boneoh edit my edit
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cman
Seriously? You are not your body.
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T-Bone
That’s not what I asked
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Exidor
Fascinating subject. The symbolism and figurative language can make some things in the Bible hard to decipher no doubt.
One indication from the New Testament that the deceased are aware or conscious but the body is dead is from Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus(Luke Chapter 16:vs19-31) In the parable Jesus described the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus) dying. Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom which was a pleasant place to be. The rich man went to Hades where he was tormented. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man but there was a great distance between them.
I forget how this story is described in ATDAN book by VPW. Some say that it was just a story Jesus used to make a moral point but they imply that the description of Sheol was not literal. Some commentators see Sheol with two compartments: Hades being the compartment reserved for the wicked and Abraham's bosom or paradise being the compartment where the righteous go until the resurrection.
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T-Bone
Seriously?
then resurrection is for optional accessory?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Interesting Exidor and this parable is explained in one of the chapters of the biblical teaching book, "Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ". The chapter is named "The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures".
The following is the copyright information from the quoted book. I wonder who that author is?? While posting on Grease Spot Cafe, I could instead be called Marky Spaghetti and could or would even consider being called that a compliment.
Author: Mark Sanguinetti
Edited by Mark SanguinettiPrimary Graphic Artist: Julian Kernes
Publisher: Puros Christian Reconciliation
First Edition © 2021
All rights reserved: Printed in the United States of America
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Mike
It took me a long time to understand the way ADAN handles this story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.
I now see it as a cultural thing.
The people loved parables, and Jesus reached them often that way.
Imagine yourself in a movie theater, about to see a drama or something. The lights go out, and a cartoon comes on. What happens? The people love it and laugh and applaud as the Merry Melodies play. Then everyone eats up the talking animals like Bugs Bunny cracking jokes, and that Wiley Coyote gets smashed by a giant heavy rock, only to get up and continue the chase.
No one gets the idea from the cartoon that animals can really talk.
When Jesus ran the Parables Reel at his shows, the people loved it! Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk.
They just did not have the centuries of twisted training to think that the dead are alive now. They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting.
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waysider
"Not one of them got tricked into thinking that dead people can really talk.
They loved the teaching of principles in a fantasy setting."
And you know this because........how?
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Mike
Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience.
The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate a little on that.
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cman
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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T-Bone
I believe you are correct, Exidor.
Sheol is used some 66 times in the OT, translated as realm of the dead or grave…I find it fascinating that ancient Israel was not interested in the dead – the way other ancient cultures were…makes me think of books of Job and Ecclesiastes – Yahweh is not God of the dead but of the living…they walked by faith in this life…not to read too much into it – but was there an underlying thought that what followed after one’s life was relatively unimportant? Don’t mind me – just thinking out loud here.
Hades mentioned in the parable of Luke 16 is usually associated with the eternal place of punishment as seen in Luke 10:15 and Matthew 11:20 - 24 .
Luke 16 has several parables and as you mentioned we’re not supposed to understand them as literal. So, they’re not true to fact but to principle – with the principle of reversal as shown in Luke 16: 27, 28 – reminding people they should repent while they still can (while they’re still alive.
~ ~ ~ ~
Way
I dig your picture of Exidor. He was one of my favorite recurring characters on Mork and Mindy…one episode, Mork returned home and was repeating Exidor’s instructions even mimicking his delivery: all aliens must report to the immigraaaaaation bureau…oh and excuse my bad manners I should have welcomed you to Grease Spot with nanu nanu.
Edited by T-BoneGoing to hell in an Easter Basket
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OldSkool
Meditate a little on this:
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
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Nathan_Jr
That Jesus told parables, and that Aesop told fables hundreds of years prior, tells us little or nothing about what the people loved. To assert such an opinionated, baseless claim is to tip one’s hand to reveal four jokers and a 2 of clubs.
There is a reason why Jesus spoke in parable. It has nothing to do with audience preference.
“Jesus was given a bastard bar mitzvah.”
”Cocks crowed at different times of the day in ‘Bible times.’”
”Four Crucified.”
Are these parables, lies or lines of bullshonta? Why do people love this fiction? What lessons do they teach, if any?
Meditate on that.
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Nathan_Jr
Parables aren’t fantasy. They are metaphor.
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Mike
Talking dead people is fantasy.
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T-Bone
apparently you STILL have a misunderstanding of not only ADAN but the Lazarus parable
Please provide historical evidence for The Jesus Show, preferably specific Parables Reel. So far you've presented a gag reel of dubious origin... time-traveling Tik Toks will be acceptable provided Jerusalem et al - both past and present don't have any security concerns and restrictions to you posting those Tik Toks.
training = the action of teaching a person a particular skill or type of behavior.
who was providing the centuries of this twisted training ?
Do you have documentation / evidence to support that assertion?
Are you the spokesperson for Jesus' intentions?
Please provide Scripture references to show people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate on what providing this documentation means...it does NOT mean a long essay.
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Nathan_Jr
A talking snake is fantasy.
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T-Bone
fantasy = the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need.
metaphor = a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
fantasize on developing your own definitions of fantasy and metaphor.
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Nathan_Jr
Parable is a genre. Allegory is a genre. Fable is a genre. Fantasy is a genre.
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Nathan_Jr
So much certainty. So much beleeef. So little understanding.
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T-Bone
tricked = to deceive someone, often as a part of a plan.
Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory on this.
Please provide scriptural evidence to support your theory that someone or some group had infiltrated the Jewish community and had a scheme to get Israelites to think dead people can talk...no essays please - just Scripture will do.
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Nathan_Jr
Four crucified.
Bastard bar mitzvah.
Crowing cocks.
Six denials.
Lesbian love in Eden.
To/for.
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