Victor, bless his little heart, “taught” no one dies unless they stop beleeeving.
Now, I don’t know if beleeeving requires a well-rested soul life, or if unbeleeef is physically exhausting, whatever the cause, sleep is brought about by fatigue.
victor succumbed to death, which is to say, he was caused to sleep, because he was too tired to stay awake, which is related to his beleeeving, or lack thereof, somehow.
All that is REALLY known is that above all victor did not stand. Standing can be exhausting. So, he stopped beleeeving in order to get some rest.
Victor, bless his little heart, is not awake. Nor is he alive now. He’s dead due to his inability to beleeeve… or his fatigue.
You guys and girls know the doctrine of the second coming and all that involves, people go to sleep when they die and don't wake up until Christ comes back, deal.
I don't think that is true in any part of it. I believe all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now.
Please provide the chapter and verse of all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now...just do that instead of TALKING about doing that. TALKING about doing that is BLUFFING.
either put up or shut up...more on this in point 3 (at least wierwille tried )
On 3/31/2023 at 10:04 PM, cman said:
Being a Christian is not a bad thing, nor is it limited in expectations and insight. If I'm quiet enough inside I can see many things and do many things that are godly and miraculous. But it's not me but what God does and has done inside me. The work is finished as Jesus said. Just and unjust are inside you, the wheat and tares are inside you. Masculine and feminine as well.
John was caught up into heaven, Paul spoke about it too. This is not limited to the apostles of the bible.
Your statement does not describe me or anyone I know. I have not ignored anything and any religious beliefs I have or you have are deep spiritual things. I am not bound by any doctrine, especially the kindergarten type stuff that is very superficial.
2. What do you mean when you say you are not bound by any doctrine?
Doctrine is usually is a classification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system…If you are not bound by such – can you explain what your beliefs are based upon? There is no wrong answer here - I'm just curious.
When you said “especially the kindergarten type stuff that is very superficial” – could you please be specific. Not sure if you realize how condescending that sounds. And if you’re referring to some of the basic tenets of Christianity mentioned on this thread thatYOU started - like death, the afterlife, being born again, the resurrection, the real existence of heaven and hell, of rewards and punishments – if you’re calling all that nursery school insignificant stuff, I am waiting for you to bring on the heavy stuff – and it would be appropriate if you’d provide some biblical evidence or referencesome other LEGITIMATE source.
I think that’s only fair! Since you seem to be challenging what others have presented here as nothing but pre-school trivial stuff, then the onus is on you to do better – so go ahead!
Hey, you’re free to post a CSN&Y or U2 video – I like them both…at least this thread is entertaining so thanks!
On 4/6/2023 at 7:49 PM, cman said:
And who says it was spiritual death? BS vpw for one. It's funny how Pfal has ⛅️ clouded clear thinking. God and Adam were still speaking to each other as well as many other men and women. I'm just not buying into the doctrine of spiritual death.
3. I think it’s funny and pretentious on your part – to insinuate PFAL has clouded anyone’s clear thinking. At least in PFAL wierwille attempted to use Scripture and logic to make a case for his screwy doctrines. Now granted, wierwille twisted Scripture and used a lot of logical fallacies but hell – at least he tried to justify himself…you could at least try to make a rational presentation of why you think the dead are alive now.
I asked you earlier what you meant by this statement…but I’m getting the idea you just wanted to use something from The Condescending Person’s Playbook and make like you’re superior to others. Oh well...zzzZZZZ ZZZzzz ...wake me when you've got something substantial
10 hours ago, cman said:
I have admitted to no such thing, just presenting the ideas.
I don't think so, they are very much related if not the very same thing.
4. But you did admitit when you said “whatever born again means”…so you’re into presenting ideas, even when you seem to have no idea what the ideas are about …okay – I’m cool with that…
please don’t take it personal when any Grease Spotters call out nonsense – we all get that from time to time - I get that a lot - - - so don't whine about it - - there’s one old timer here who often resorts to playing the victim card when his baloney is analyzed and found to be wanting substance.
you asserting that being born again and the resurrection are very much related if not the very same thing - makes me think you have no respect for plain English and common sense.
(checks the forum we’re in) – here, most folks usually offer up some logic and Scripture to support their claim…But I’m easy – it doesn’t matter to me if someone wants to go on and on about a personal philosophy. I thought the thread was about asking the question are the dead alive now?I wasn’t expecting day care for airheads…my bad.
10 hours ago, cman said:
I could not explain being born again; I don't think I could do it justice. It has to be experienced to even come close to believing it.
5. as I said earlier - Jesus explained it the best in John 3.
Edited by T-Bone formatting...Is My Editor Alive Now?
That does not say everyone at the same time as time as we know it...
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the verse you seem to be referring to in your post above. Just reading what is written, the blue words describe how it will happen, the purple words say when it will happen and I believe the red words are all inclusive - not some of the dead and not some of the Christians Paul is writing to.
What do you mean by "as we know it" at the end of your above statement?
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them thatslept.
I will reply about the word "slept" separately.
The definition of "firstfruits" as given in Scripture. (The website below talks about 5 Kinds of Firstfruits:)
1. The First Harvest - the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field (Exodus 23:16)
2. Israel - Just as the first and choicest crops were devoted to God, Israel was God’s chosen and set apart people. But the fact that Israel was God’s firstfruits, not His only fruit... (Jeremiah 2:3)
3. Believers - In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 16:15, the first converts of a particular area were called “the firstfruits.”
4. The Holy Spirit - The Holy Spirit is a foretaste, the first installment of our future glory. He is God’s the pledge of more to come in our resurrection life. (Rom 8:23)
5. Jesus - As the Old Testament firstfruits symbolized and consecrated the entire harvest that was to follow, Christ’s resurrection was the foretaste of the resurrection of all believers yet to come. His resurrection is our assurance that one day all believers will be raised from the dead and will receive new, resurrected bodies. (1 Cor 16:15)
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them thatslept.
The verb "slept" is not in the past tense.
When you look at this word in an Interlinear Bible, it is in the perfect participle tense (V-RPM/P) and means "having fallen asleep" (see website below). Therefore this verse is saying, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that died and continue to be dead." (This agrees with the meaning of the word firstfruits.)
Perfect Participleconveys a sense of completion and acts as a bridge between the past and the present. It is a completed action (he died) that has lasting or permanent results (he is dead)
In other words, it means a completed action shown by the period above (he died) that has lasting or permanent results shown by the (he is dead); it oftenreflects a state resulting from past action.
You form the perfect participle by putting the present participle “having” in front of the past participle. For example: having done, having finished, having read, having spoken.
So, we are seated in the heavenlies, Christ in you, now we are sons of God, and all that. And then we have to take a nap, sleep, at the end of our lives until 1000's of years till we meet the Lord? Does this make any kind of sense? About love? Salvation? Saved?
I'm not so smart you know, but I can see a few things....it has to be simple, easy for me to get it... I think it is
If humanity does not really die or die for a short time, perhaps 1 or 2 seconds. Then why do followers of Jesus Christ need Christ to return?? With the dead in Christ only being raised from the dead when Jesus Christ returns before the 1000 year period, shows that humanity needs Jesus Christ. Also after the 1,000 year period the devil and the demons will get placed in prison. Then there will be a second resurrection of judgement with Jesus Christ part of the judgement when working with God his Father. This also shows that humanity needs Jesus Christ to have eternal life and NOT Satan the god of this age and world now. This can be read in Revelation chapter 20.
Revelation 20:11-15 The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (NKJV)
In addition, it has the Book of Life with humanity being judged more favorably than others who will be placed into the lake of fire. As worded with the figurative “book of life”, some or perhaps even a majority who will be judged as read in Revelation 20:15 may be “found written in the book of life” (KJV). Then they will not need to be “cast into the lake of fire” and may be able to enter the gates in the new heaven and earth. Chapter 21 has information on the new heaven and earth.
Revelation 21:25-27
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (NIV)
This Christian ministry in Texas has information about this controversial subject.
So, we are seated in the heavenlies, Christ in you, now we are sons of God, and all that. And then we have to take a nap, sleep, at the end of our lives until 1000's of years till we meet the Lord? Does this make any kind of sense? About love? Salvation? Saved?
I'm not so smart you know, but I can see a few things....it has to be simple, easy for me to get it... I think it is
Yes, it makes sense. I’m not that smart either – I’m always trying to unpack Bible stuff – there’s lots of overtones, hints, metaphors, associations, double meanings, disorienting space-time references in many passages. That’s why I like to check out reliable resources from people who have REAL expertise in the biblical languages, cultures, and theology. It’s not like anyone has it all together – but it doesn’t take a lot of work to examine legitimate sources to see what jibes with my basic understanding of Christianity – I’m no theologian or scholar – so I like things simple too – and the stuff is not repugnant to one’s cognitive skills like wierwille’s mishmash theology of PFAL. Take for instance your reference to Ephesians 2:6 NIV :
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
Many Jewish thinkers recognized that the righteous would reign in the coming world (Da.7:22, 27; Rev 3:21; 5:10). Here, however, believers have already begun to experience this victory. Specifically, they are enthroned with Christ above spiritual powers (1:20 – 23), hence are no longer bound by evil compelling them to sin (vv. 1 – 3). Many people feared spirits as well as the power of Fate through the stars; those exalted with Christ need not fear such powers.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
What I like about NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible is the chance to sort of travel back in space and time and get an idea of the worldview the biblical writers had – once I have that it’s a matter of transposing some concepts to my world – how I see Eph. 2:6 applicable today is that it speaks to not just New Age, Astrology, and Fatalism stuff but as an ex-TWI-follower it counters wierwille’s fascination with demonology and fears of demons running and ruining my life.
With regard to the biblical subject of the second coming of Christ. The following has some information from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
SECOND COMING
Christ's future return to the earth at the end of the present age. Although the Bible explicitly speaks of Christ's appearance as a "second time," the phrase "second coming" occurs nowhere in the New Testament. Many passages, however, speak of His return. In fact, in the New Testament alone it is referred to over 300 times.
The night before His crucifixion, Jesus told His apostles that He would return (John 14:3). When Jesus ascended into heaven, two angels appeared to His followers, saying that He would return in the same manner as they had seen Him go (Acts 1:11). The New Testament is filled with expectancy of His coming, even as Christians should be today.
Various opinions exist about what is meant by the Second Coming. Some regard it as the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of PENTECOST. Others regard it as the coming of Christ into the heart at conversion. Christ's coming for the believer at the time of death is still another view. Careful examination of the New Testament, however, makes it clear that the Second Coming will be a climactic historical event. The Lord will return in the same manner in which He left. His coming will be personal, bodily, and visible.
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (NIV)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
The Comfort of Christ's Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV)
Hi Cman, if you can get on Grease Spot Café, you should be able to Google those 2 questions – those are easy questions which most Bible students can easily handle. I Googled them anyway to prove a point and got some answers right away…so have at it!
38 minutes ago, cman said:
Forthey thatsleepsleepinthenight
I also Googled this passage – even though I knew where it was from right off the bat. Also – not sure if you’re aware that this refers to something different than your first two questions (which is something I also knew already from personal studies - but see for yourself the 2 commentaries I quoted below)
Also on Bible Hub you can click on commentaries – like I did for I Thess. 5:7 – and you’ll find some helpful explanations – like the couple I copied and pasted below:
(7) They that sleep. . . .--As the connection of sleep with night has already been sufficiently worked out, and is not touched upon again in 1Thessalonians 5:8, the first clause seems only to be inserted for the sake of bringing out the second, and to justify the sudden introduction of the words, "and be sober." It may thus be paraphrased: "I say, 'and be sober too,' for as they that sleep in the night, so they that be drunken are drunken in the night." It is implied that the streets even of heathen Thessalonica were seldom affronted with the common English spectacle of drunken men by daylight; while among the Jews it was proof positive of sobriety to say, "It is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15). In St. Cyprian's time, Christians were known from other men because their breath smelt of wine in the early morning through attending the Blessed Sacrament (Epistle lxiii. 15): no heathens would have touched wine by that time.
Verse 7. - For; the reason of this exhortation. They that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. Here not to be taken in a metaphorical sense, but a simple statement of fact - what occurs in ordinary experience. The night is the season in which sleep and drunkenness usually occur; whereas the day is the season of watchfulness, sobriety, and work. Both heathen and Jews considered it as eminently disgraceful for a man to be seen drunken in the day-time. Hence, when the Jews accused the believers on the day of Pentecost with being filled with new wine, Peter answered, "We are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15).
Obviously comparing sleep to death is NOT literal, and instead is a figure of speech or a metaphor. However, since I do not have a special religious title, for example Reverend, I can often be ignored. Therefore, on this subject of sleep, I will simply again copy from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. Yes, I often learn from the Nelson Illustrated Bible Dictionary. This includes speeding up my biblical study research. I hope others learn also.
As an example of figurative and not literal. Before I sleep at night I always pray to God now that I can get at least 6 hours of sleeping WORK, but I prefer 7 hours of sleeping work. Because I sometimes have acid reflex in my stomach. I figuratively compare my stomach to a dog and pray to God that my stomach wags his tail instead of growl or bark. Especially when I lie down to do my sleeping work. In addition, because I consider my self a workaholic and not an alcoholic. This is why I consider sleep part of my work day. I use figurative and not literal statements much.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
I'm not worried about death or much else for that matter. Why should I? Not concerned about those that sleep either, they will die and find out for themselves. That is comfort.
That is good CMAN, but when you quote from scriptures, please type or copy the scriptures that you are quoting from. I always do that so that people can double check the source of my information. In his recent post it looks like CMAN was quoting from Romans 6:3-11 from the King James Version and then Colossians 2:12 also from the KJV.
Thank you for helping me laugh T-Bone and that is NOT Mark Sanguinetti, the workaholic. I prefer eating healthy food so that I can live longer in my earthly life. I especially now do NOT want my stomach to growl and bark. I instead want him to wag his tail.
Thank you for helping me laugh T-Bone and that is NOT Mark Sanguinetti, the workaholic. I prefer eating healthy food so that I can live longer in my earthly life.
You’re welcome, Mark.
Btw, the picture wasn’t in reference to you but to the comment in the post before yours “both of you lean on these commentaries” – and the picture was more about me than you anyway…I do tend to lean a lot on commentaries and other reputable sources…I guess because theology isn’t my bag…and after a few Irish Coffees I probably act more like that guy…Moral of the story – don’t drink and post.
FYI: The reason I posted it this morning instead of right after that lean on commentariescomment last night, is because last night I found the leaning drunk picture by Googling on my smartphone – but had technical difficulties inserting it into a post when I tried to use the Insert image from URLfeature – but it wouldn’t take it. So, this morning I found the image from my laptop,
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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cman
I could not explain being born again; I don't think I could do it justice. It has to be experienced to even come close to believing it.
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cman
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Nathan_Jr
Victor, bless his little heart, “taught” no one dies unless they stop beleeeving.
Now, I don’t know if beleeeving requires a well-rested soul life, or if unbeleeef is physically exhausting, whatever the cause, sleep is brought about by fatigue.
victor succumbed to death, which is to say, he was caused to sleep, because he was too tired to stay awake, which is related to his beleeeving, or lack thereof, somehow.
All that is REALLY known is that above all victor did not stand. Standing can be exhausting. So, he stopped beleeeving in order to get some rest.
Victor, bless his little heart, is not awake. Nor is he alive now. He’s dead due to his inability to beleeeve… or his fatigue.
Math.
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T-Bone
1. So big deal – that’s what you believe.
However, thus far - you have failed to prove “all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now”.
Please provide the chapter and verse of all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now...just do that instead of TALKING about doing that. TALKING about doing that is BLUFFING.
either put up or shut up...more on this in point 3 (at least wierwille tried
)
2. What do you mean when you say you are not bound by any doctrine?
Doctrine is usually is a classification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system…If you are not bound by such – can you explain what your beliefs are based upon? There is no wrong answer here - I'm just curious.
When you said “especially the kindergarten type stuff that is very superficial” – could you please be specific. Not sure if you realize how condescending that sounds. And if you’re referring to some of the basic tenets of Christianity mentioned on this thread that YOU started - like death, the afterlife, being born again, the resurrection, the real existence of heaven and hell, of rewards and punishments – if you’re calling all that nursery school insignificant stuff, I am waiting for you to bring on the heavy stuff – and it would be appropriate if you’d provide some biblical evidence or reference some other LEGITIMATE source.
I think that’s only fair! Since you seem to be challenging what others have presented here as nothing but pre-school trivial stuff, then the onus is on you to do better – so go ahead!
Hey, you’re free to post a CSN&Y or U2 video – I like them both…at least this thread is entertaining so thanks!
3. I think it’s funny and pretentious on your part – to insinuate PFAL has clouded anyone’s clear thinking. At least in PFAL wierwille attempted to use Scripture and logic to make a case for his screwy doctrines. Now granted, wierwille twisted Scripture and used a lot of logical fallacies but hell – at least he tried to justify himself…you could at least try to make a rational presentation of why you think the dead are alive now.
I asked you earlier what you meant by this statement…but I’m getting the idea you just wanted to use something from The Condescending Person’s Playbook and make like you’re superior to others. Oh well...zzzZZZZ
ZZZzzz ...wake me when you've got something substantial 
4. But you did admit it when you said “whatever born again means”…so you’re into presenting ideas, even when you seem to have no idea what the ideas are about
…okay – I’m cool with that…
please don’t take it personal when any Grease Spotters call out nonsense – we all get that from time to time - I get that a lot -
- - so don't whine about it - - there’s one old timer here who often resorts to playing the victim card when his baloney is analyzed and found to be wanting substance.
you asserting that being born again and the resurrection are very much related if not the very same thing - makes me think you have no respect for plain English and common sense.
(checks the forum we’re in) – here, most folks usually offer up some logic and Scripture to support their claim…But I’m easy – it doesn’t matter to me if someone wants to go on and on about a personal philosophy. I thought the thread was about asking the question are the dead alive now? I wasn’t expecting day care for airheads…my bad.
5. as I said earlier - Jesus explained it the best in John 3.
Edited by T-Boneformatting...Is My Editor Alive Now?
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Charity
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the verse you seem to be referring to in your post above. Just reading what is written, the blue words describe how it will happen, the purple words say when it will happen and I believe the red words are all inclusive - not some of the dead and not some of the Christians Paul is writing to.
What do you mean by "as we know it" at the end of your above statement?
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Charity
I will reply about the word "slept" separately.
The definition of "firstfruits" as given in Scripture. (The website below talks about 5 Kinds of Firstfruits:)
1. The First Harvest - the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field (Exodus 23:16)
2. Israel - Just as the first and choicest crops were devoted to God, Israel was God’s chosen and set apart people. But the fact that Israel was God’s firstfruits, not His only fruit... (Jeremiah 2:3)
3. Believers - In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 16:15, the first converts of a particular area were called “the firstfruits.”
4. The Holy Spirit - The Holy Spirit is a foretaste, the first installment of our future glory. He is God’s the pledge of more to come in our resurrection life. (Rom 8:23)
5. Jesus - As the Old Testament firstfruits symbolized and consecrated the entire harvest that was to follow, Christ’s resurrection was the foretaste of the resurrection of all believers yet to come. His resurrection is our assurance that one day all believers will be raised from the dead and will receive new, resurrected bodies. (1 Cor 16:15)
https://explorethebible.lifeway.com/blog/adults/5-kinds-of-firstfruits-session-5-john-203-9-1-corinthians-1520-28/
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Charity
The verb "slept" is not in the past tense.
When you look at this word in an Interlinear Bible, it is in the perfect participle tense (V-RPM/P) and means "having fallen asleep" (see website below). Therefore this verse is saying, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that died and continue to be dead." (This agrees with the meaning of the word firstfruits.)
Perfect Participle conveys a sense of completion and acts as a bridge between the past and the present. It is a completed action (he died) that has lasting or permanent results (he is dead)
In other words, it means a completed action shown by the period above
(he died) that has lasting or permanent results shown by the 
(he is dead); it often reflects a state resulting from past action.
You form the perfect participle by putting the present participle “having” in front of the past participle. For example: having done, having finished, having read, having spoken.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm
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cman
So, we are seated in the heavenlies, Christ in you, now we are sons of God, and all that. And then we have to take a nap, sleep, at the end of our lives until 1000's of years till we meet the Lord? Does this make any kind of sense? About love? Salvation? Saved?
I'm not so smart you know, but I can see a few things....it has to be simple, easy for me to get it... I think it is
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Mark Sanguinetti
If humanity does not really die or die for a short time, perhaps 1 or 2 seconds. Then why do followers of Jesus Christ need Christ to return?? With the dead in Christ only being raised from the dead when Jesus Christ returns before the 1000 year period, shows that humanity needs Jesus Christ. Also after the 1,000 year period the devil and the demons will get placed in prison. Then there will be a second resurrection of judgement with Jesus Christ part of the judgement when working with God his Father. This also shows that humanity needs Jesus Christ to have eternal life and NOT Satan the god of this age and world now. This can be read in Revelation chapter 20.
Revelation 20:11-15 The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (NKJV)
In addition, it has the Book of Life with humanity being judged more favorably than others who will be placed into the lake of fire. As worded with the figurative “book of life”, some or perhaps even a majority who will be judged as read in Revelation 20:15 may be “found written in the book of life” (KJV). Then they will not need to be “cast into the lake of fire” and may be able to enter the gates in the new heaven and earth. Chapter 21 has information on the new heaven and earth.
Revelation 21:25-27
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (NIV)
This Christian ministry in Texas has information about this controversial subject.
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/life/life-after-death/what-is-heaven/go-to-heaven/
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cman
there is no "return" of Christ, there is a coming, that is different
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T-Bone
Yes, it makes sense. I’m not that smart either – I’m always trying to unpack Bible stuff – there’s lots of overtones, hints, metaphors, associations, double meanings, disorienting space-time references in many passages. That’s why I like to check out reliable resources from people who have REAL expertise in the biblical languages, cultures, and theology. It’s not like anyone has it all together – but it doesn’t take a lot of work to examine legitimate sources to see what jibes with my basic understanding of Christianity – I’m no theologian or scholar – so I like things simple too – and the stuff is not repugnant to one’s cognitive skills like wierwille’s mishmash theology of PFAL. Take for instance your reference to Ephesians 2:6 NIV :
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus
Page 2059 of the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible says this of Eph. 2:6
Many Jewish thinkers recognized that the righteous would reign in the coming world (Da.7:22, 27; Rev 3:21; 5:10). Here, however, believers have already begun to experience this victory. Specifically, they are enthroned with Christ above spiritual powers (1:20 – 23), hence are no longer bound by evil compelling them to sin (vv. 1 – 3). Many people feared spirits as well as the power of Fate through the stars; those exalted with Christ need not fear such powers.
End of excerpt
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What I like about NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible is the chance to sort of travel back in space and time and get an idea of the worldview the biblical writers had – once I have that it’s a matter of transposing some concepts to my world – how I see Eph. 2:6 applicable today is that it speaks to not just New Age, Astrology, and Fatalism stuff but as an ex-TWI-follower it counters wierwille’s fascination with demonology and fears of demons running and ruining my life.
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Mark Sanguinetti
With regard to the biblical subject of the second coming of Christ. The following has some information from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
SECOND COMING
Christ's future return to the earth at the end of the present age. Although the Bible explicitly speaks of Christ's appearance as a "second time," the phrase "second coming" occurs nowhere in the New Testament. Many passages, however, speak of His return. In fact, in the New Testament alone it is referred to over 300 times.
The night before His crucifixion, Jesus told His apostles that He would return (John 14:3). When Jesus ascended into heaven, two angels appeared to His followers, saying that He would return in the same manner as they had seen Him go (Acts 1:11). The New Testament is filled with expectancy of His coming, even as Christians should be today.
Various opinions exist about what is meant by the Second Coming. Some regard it as the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of PENTECOST. Others regard it as the coming of Christ into the heart at conversion. Christ's coming for the believer at the time of death is still another view. Careful examination of the New Testament, however, makes it clear that the Second Coming will be a climactic historical event. The Lord will return in the same manner in which He left. His coming will be personal, bodily, and visible.
The time of the Second Coming is unknown. In fact, Jesus stated that only the Father knew the time. Therefore, the return of the Lord should be a matter of constant expectancy. As He came the first time, in the "fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4), so will the Second Coming be. The believer's task is not to try to determine the time of the Second Coming. We should share the gospel message diligently until He returns (Acts 1:8-11).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Acts 1:6-11
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (NIV)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
The Comfort of Christ's Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV)
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cman
Who are the ones who sleep in Jesus
Who are the dead in Christ
For they that sleep sleep in the night
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T-Bone
Hi Cman, if you can get on Grease Spot Café, you should be able to Google those 2 questions – those are easy questions which most Bible students can easily handle. I Googled them anyway to prove a point and got some answers right away…so have at it!
I also Googled this passage – even though I knew where it was from right off the bat. Also – not sure if you’re aware that this refers to something different than your first two questions (which is something I also knew already from personal studies - but see for yourself the 2 commentaries I quoted below)
New International Version
For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 1 Thessalonians 5:7
Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages (used above ) is really handy as well as BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
Also on Bible Hub you can click on commentaries – like I did for I Thess. 5:7 – and you’ll find some helpful explanations – like the couple I copied and pasted below:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(7) They that sleep. . . .--As the connection of sleep with night has already been sufficiently worked out, and is not touched upon again in 1Thessalonians 5:8, the first clause seems only to be inserted for the sake of bringing out the second, and to justify the sudden introduction of the words, "and be sober." It may thus be paraphrased: "I say, 'and be sober too,' for as they that sleep in the night, so they that be drunken are drunken in the night." It is implied that the streets even of heathen Thessalonica were seldom affronted with the common English spectacle of drunken men by daylight; while among the Jews it was proof positive of sobriety to say, "It is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15). In St. Cyprian's time, Christians were known from other men because their breath smelt of wine in the early morning through attending the Blessed Sacrament (Epistle lxiii. 15): no heathens would have touched wine by that time.
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Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - For; the reason of this exhortation. They that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. Here not to be taken in a metaphorical sense, but a simple statement of fact - what occurs in ordinary experience. The night is the season in which sleep and drunkenness usually occur; whereas the day is the season of watchfulness, sobriety, and work. Both heathen and Jews considered it as eminently disgraceful for a man to be seen drunken in the day-time. Hence, when the Jews accused the believers on the day of Pentecost with being filled with new wine, Peter answered, "We are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15).
End of excerpts - - from: 1 Thessalonians 5:7 commentaries
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You’re welcome!
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cman
lol, both of you lean on these commentaries That's fine for you I suppose, not for me. Thanks for the info.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Obviously comparing sleep to death is NOT literal, and instead is a figure of speech or a metaphor. However, since I do not have a special religious title, for example Reverend, I can often be ignored. Therefore, on this subject of sleep, I will simply again copy from the Nelson Bible Dictionary. Yes, I often learn from the Nelson Illustrated Bible Dictionary. This includes speeding up my biblical study research. I hope others learn also.
SLEEP
A natural period of rest during which consciousness is suspended. In the Bible, sleep is a common metaphor for death. In 1 and 2 Kings, especially, the phrase, "he rested (slept, KJV) with his fathers," occurs many times (1 Kings 2:10; 11:43). The Christian dead "sleep in Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 4:14). Sleep also can symbolize physical laziness, which brings poverty (Proverbs 6:9-11). In the New Testament sleep often suggests spiritual or moral laziness (1 Thessalonians 5:6). On the other hand, sleep can be a symbol of living in safety (Ezekiel 34:25). God gives sleep to the righteous and to the hard worker (Psalms 4:8; Ecclesiastes 5:12).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
As an example of figurative and not literal. Before I sleep at night I always pray to God now that I can get at least 6 hours of sleeping WORK, but I prefer 7 hours of sleeping work. Because I sometimes have acid reflex in my stomach. I figuratively compare my stomach to a dog and pray to God that my stomach wags his tail instead of growl or bark. Especially when I lie down to do my sleeping work. In addition, because I consider my self a workaholic and not an alcoholic. This is why I consider sleep part of my work day. I use figurative and not literal statements much.
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T-Bone
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cman
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
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cman
I'm not worried about death or much else for that matter. Why should I? Not concerned about those that sleep either, they will die and find out for themselves. That is comfort.
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Mark Sanguinetti
That is good CMAN, but when you quote from scriptures, please type or copy the scriptures that you are quoting from. I always do that so that people can double check the source of my information. In his recent post it looks like CMAN was quoting from Romans 6:3-11 from the King James Version and then Colossians 2:12 also from the KJV.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you for helping me laugh T-Bone and that is NOT Mark Sanguinetti, the workaholic. I prefer eating healthy food so that I can live longer in my earthly life. I especially now do NOT want my stomach to growl and bark. I instead want him to wag his tail.
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T-Bone
You’re welcome, Mark.
Btw, the picture wasn’t in reference to you but to the comment in the post before yours “both of you lean on these commentaries” – and the picture was more about me than you anyway…I do tend to lean a lot on commentaries and other reputable sources…I guess because theology isn’t my bag…and after a few Irish Coffees I probably act more like that guy…Moral of the story – don’t drink and post.
FYI: The reason I posted it this morning instead of right after that lean on commentaries comment last night, is because last night I found the leaning drunk picture by Googling on my smartphone – but had technical difficulties inserting it into a post when I tried to use the Insert image from URL feature – but it wouldn’t take it. So, this morning I found the image from my laptop,
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cman
No...lol...
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cman
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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