Salvation for one....forgiveness mercy...other such things...
Yup - I agree
but
the Scripture quoted has to do with giving rewards or punishments according to what one has done, in other words works...it seems to me they are NOT talking about salvation, forgiveness or mercy...completely different topics!
For review - here's the rest of what I said:
34 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
From the Scripture quoted I gather that rewards and punishment are doled out according to one’s works.
maybe the serpent waswrong – after all - he probably was familiar with the cultural expression of death – being a separation – in this context Adam and Eve’s spiritualseparation from God…
but if
thatdid NOThappen (the spiritual separation from God) then yes, the serpent would have been right, and the rest of the Bible is rendered superfluous - oh what joy for every girl and boy…well...you'll have to excuse me I’ve got some apologies to make in the other doctrinal forums.
Do you actually believe that? There was spiritual death in Genesis chapter 3 and then future physical death, which humanity has now. The serpent or devil is really good at deception with false things. I do not recommend believing the devil and the demons, which I figuratively call spiritual .... ants. Please pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ and NOT the spiritual god of this world.
And who says it was spiritual death? BS vpw for one. It's funny how Pfal has ⛅️ clouded clear thinking. God and Adam were still speaking to each other as well as many other men and women. I'm just not buying into the doctrine of spiritual death.
Do you at least see that physical death began as worded in Genesis chapter 3? Do you at least see less of a spiritual connection with God? Followers of Jesus Christ can see that through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ with Jesus now seated at the right hand of God. Then beginning in the first century with the receiving of the Holy Spirit as a gift from God, that there is more of a spiritual connection now between God and human followers of Christ.
Genesis 3:1-13
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me — she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
NIV
no one...but then again - what do YOU think the death is in Genesis 2 & 3?
I was wondering if death can be understood as both physical and spiritual death.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
1 hour ago, cman said:
BS vpw for one. It's funny how Pfal has ⛅️ clouded clear thinking.
What do you mean by that?
1 hour ago, cman said:
God and Adam were still speaking to each other as well as many other men and women.
God still speaking to Adam and others – what does that prove?
God talked to The Serpent.
God and The Satan talking to each other in the book of Job.
Jesus and The Devil talking to each other in Matthew 4 & Luke 4.
The Risen Christ talked to Saul on the road to Damascus.
Maybe separation speaks to the parting of ways i.e., a divergence…a movement in different directions away from a common point. So true – even today – there can be opposing parties in politics, the cold war of rivaling countries, divorced couples – all separated yet they sometimes manage communication between them.
1 hour ago, cman said:
I'm just not buying into the doctrine of spiritual death.
I’m curious. What is the doctrine of spiritual death?
And so, following up with your opening statement, again I ask you what is the death spoken about in Genesis 2 & 3?
Regarding the topic of death as physical and spiritual. The following is from the Nelson Bible Dictionary and NOT VPW.
DEATH
A term which, when applied to the lower orders of living things such as plants and animals, means the end of life. With reference to human beings, however, death is not the end of life. The Bible teaches that man is more than a physical creature; he is also a spiritual being. For man, therefore, physical death does not mean the end of existence but the end of life as we know it and the transition to another dimension in which our conscious existence continues.
The Bible speaks of death in a threefold way: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The first physical death of a human being recorded in the Bible is that of Abel, who was murdered by his brother Cain (Genesis 4:8). However, death itself, in both the physical and spiritual sense, is first mentioned by God Himself (Genesis 2:17). In the Genesis account of the FALL both physical and spiritual death come as a result of sin (Romans 5:12-21).
Various attitudes toward death are expressed in the Bible, from dread to anticipation. The ancient Hebrews regarded death as entrance into SHEOL, where they were cut off from everything dear in life, including God and loved ones. But God revealed to the psalmist that the Redeemer God is both in heaven and in Sheol (Psalms 139:7-8), and He is able to bring a person out of Sheol ("the grave"; 1 Samuel 2:6).
I believe this was the whole plan anyway, that we should know good and evil and get eternal life as well.
Daniel 9:24
King James Version
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I believe this was the whole plan anyway, that we should know good and evil and get eternal life as well.
Daniel 9:24 King James Version
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Putting it that way, makes God sound like He’s a poor planner – since Romans 8 says in verse 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time…so God ‘planned’ all this?
Plan = a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something; an intention or decision about what one is going to do; as a verb = decide on and arrange in advance; design or make a plan of (something to be made or built).
I guess one way to say it was “the whole plan” all along is to say that’s what God ultimately intended. One could think of The Fall of humankind as something that surprised God. I mean it could be – one of the ways children learn is by experience – making decisions that have real consequences – circling back to the Romans 8:22 metaphor, that means we haven’t even got the adult portion of the program started yet…maybe the whole plan included a contingency plan if things didn’t go according to the plan. Children are like that.
~ ~ ~ ~
Looking at the context of the passage you quoted in Daniel 9 – makes me think there must be some way to reconcile the treacherous way God’s whole plan is working out, if we don’t want to impugn His benevolence – which brings up the issue of free will. If God didn’t intend for humankind to be automatons, then He must have had something up His sleeve for the possibility of rebellion:
“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.
7“Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
15“Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. 16Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.
17“Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
20While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:
24“Seventy ‘sevens’ c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. e
25“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, f the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. g The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ h In the middle of the ‘seven’ i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple j he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. k ” l
Circling backto Romans 8 NIVspeaks of the contingency plans already in place:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba,g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And so, following up with your opening statement, again I ask you what is the death spoken about in Genesis 2 & 3?
To die and then be born again....so there has to be a death to be born again... whatever born again means....to die before you die...first and second deaths...
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
To die and then be born again....so there has to be a death to be born again... whatever born again means....to die before you die...first and second deaths...
Sounds more like you’re trying to describe reincarnation – and since you’ve admitted you don’t know what born again means, it seems you’re grabbing at straws , trying to assert something that lacks any credibility - - which is somewhat pointless in a doctrinal forum…I realize Grease Spot Café Doctrinal Forum isn’t exactly a highbrow platform for analysis– i.e., breaking down a complex topic into smaller parts in order to gain a better understanding of it, along with some creative synthesis – but most folks try to make a coherent case for their doctrinal dissertation…
Whatever…maybe there’s still hope for this discussion.
1 hour ago, cman said:
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
There’s probably no better definition of what born again means, than what Jesus said to Nicodemus:
1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. a ”
4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” d
10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. e14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, f15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” g
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
27To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.” h
31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God i gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not se
Comparing the concepts of born again with resurrectionthey are as different as night and day. Birth is the start of an individual’s life as a physically separate being from the mother. It’s probably best to understand Jesus’ words as drawing upon the motif of physical birth rather than pressing them into a scientifically precise description of a spiritual re-birth.
Resurrection- is the concept of coming back to life after death. At times Scripture speaks of being born and being raised from the dead in metaphors andeuphemisms- but to insist that all passages be interpreted as literal is the folly of fundamentalism .
Looking at the context of the Corinthian passage you quoted – the natural sense of resurrection here is a revitalization… a restoration… a regeneration of bodies that were dead and a unique transformation of living bodies...Paul seems to want us to take his references to resurrection in a literal sense:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
33Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” e34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” f ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we g bear the image of the heavenly man.
50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” h
Sounds more like you’re trying to describe reincarnation – and since you’ve admitted you don’t know what born again means, it seems you’re grabbing at straws
I have admitted to no such thing, just presenting the ideas.
15 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
Comparing the concepts of born again with resurrectionthey are as different as night and day.
I don't think so, they are very much related if not the very same thing.
So, no mention of a delay or long period of sleep. There is a word slept somewhere in the bible about the people before Christ came. I'll find it eventually....
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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T-Bone
Yup - I agree
but
the Scripture quoted has to do with giving rewards or punishments according to what one has done, in other words works...it seems to me they are NOT talking about salvation, forgiveness or mercy...completely different topics!
For review - here's the rest of what I said:
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cman
The serpent was right You shall not surely die
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T-Bone
Or
maybe the serpent was wrong – after all - he probably was familiar with the cultural expression of death
– being a separation – in this context Adam and Eve’s spiritual separation from God…
but if
that did NOT happen (the spiritual separation from God) then yes, the serpent would have been right, and the rest of the Bible is rendered superfluous - oh what joy for every girl and boy…well...you'll have to excuse me I’ve got some apologies to make in the other doctrinal forums.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Do you actually believe that? There was spiritual death in Genesis chapter 3 and then future physical death, which humanity has now. The serpent or devil is really good at deception with false things. I do not recommend believing the devil and the demons, which I figuratively call spiritual .... ants. Please pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ and NOT the spiritual god of this world.
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cman
And who says it was spiritual death? BS vpw for one. It's funny how Pfal has ⛅️ clouded clear thinking. God and Adam were still speaking to each other as well as many other men and women. I'm just not buying into the doctrine of spiritual death.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Do you at least see that physical death began as worded in Genesis chapter 3? Do you at least see less of a spiritual connection with God? Followers of Jesus Christ can see that through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ with Jesus now seated at the right hand of God. Then beginning in the first century with the receiving of the Holy Spirit as a gift from God, that there is more of a spiritual connection now between God and human followers of Christ.
Genesis 3:1-13
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me — she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
NIV
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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T-Bone
no one...but then again - what do YOU think the death is in Genesis 2 & 3?
I was wondering if death can be understood as both physical and spiritual death.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
What do you mean by that?
God still speaking to Adam and others – what does that prove?
God talked to The Serpent.
God and The Satan talking to each other in the book of Job.
Jesus and The Devil talking to each other in Matthew 4 & Luke 4.
The Risen Christ talked to Saul on the road to Damascus.
Maybe separation speaks to the parting of ways i.e., a divergence…a movement in different directions away from a common point. So true – even today – there can be opposing parties in politics, the cold war of rivaling countries, divorced couples – all separated yet they sometimes manage communication between them.
I’m curious. What is the doctrine of spiritual death?
And so, following up with your opening statement, again I ask you what is the death spoken about in Genesis 2 & 3?
Edited by T-Boneclarity - death to typos
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Mark Sanguinetti
Regarding the topic of death as physical and spiritual. The following is from the Nelson Bible Dictionary and NOT VPW.
DEATH
A term which, when applied to the lower orders of living things such as plants and animals, means the end of life. With reference to human beings, however, death is not the end of life. The Bible teaches that man is more than a physical creature; he is also a spiritual being. For man, therefore, physical death does not mean the end of existence but the end of life as we know it and the transition to another dimension in which our conscious existence continues.
The Bible speaks of death in a threefold way: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The first physical death of a human being recorded in the Bible is that of Abel, who was murdered by his brother Cain (Genesis 4:8). However, death itself, in both the physical and spiritual sense, is first mentioned by God Himself (Genesis 2:17). In the Genesis account of the FALL both physical and spiritual death come as a result of sin (Romans 5:12-21).
Various attitudes toward death are expressed in the Bible, from dread to anticipation. The ancient Hebrews regarded death as entrance into SHEOL, where they were cut off from everything dear in life, including God and loved ones. But God revealed to the psalmist that the Redeemer God is both in heaven and in Sheol (Psalms 139:7-8), and He is able to bring a person out of Sheol ("the grave"; 1 Samuel 2:6).
Because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), all men are spiritually dead-separated from God who is the Source of spiritual life. Sin makes a person hate the light and despise the truth; it causes one to break God's laws and to become insensitive to holy things. Everyone who has not been redeemed by Christ is spiritually dead (Luke 15:32; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13).
Edited by Mark Sanguinetti(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
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cman
I believe this was the whole plan anyway, that we should know good and evil and get eternal life as well.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
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T-Bone
Putting it that way, makes God sound like He’s a poor planner – since Romans 8 says in verse 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time…so God ‘planned’ all this?
Plan = a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something; an intention or decision about what one is going to do; as a verb = decide on and arrange in advance; design or make a plan of (something to be made or built).
I guess one way to say it was “the whole plan” all along is to say that’s what God ultimately intended. One could think of The Fall of humankind as something that surprised God. I mean it could be – one of the ways children learn is by experience – making decisions that have real consequences – circling back to the Romans 8:22 metaphor, that means we haven’t even got the adult portion of the program started yet…maybe the whole plan included a contingency plan if things didn’t go according to the plan. Children are like that.
~ ~ ~ ~
Looking at the context of the passage you quoted in Daniel 9 – makes me think there must be some way to reconcile the treacherous way God’s whole plan is working out, if we don’t want to impugn His benevolence – which brings up the issue of free will. If God didn’t intend for humankind to be automatons, then He must have had something up His sleeve for the possibility of rebellion:
4I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:
“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.
7“Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
15“Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. 16Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.
17“Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
20While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:
24“Seventy ‘sevens’ c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. e
25“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, f the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. g The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ h In the middle of the ‘seven’ i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple j he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. k ” l
Daniel 9 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Circling back to Romans 8 NIV speaks of the contingency plans already in place:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” j
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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OldSkool
Which would make God a liar. Is that what u mean to say?
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cman
And who is God, who is the serpent? What are they? Where are they? The garden of Eden, a state of mind?
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OldSkool
That's on you. Peace.
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cman
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cman
I think Genesis and Job are about the same story of man. The internal battle of Christ and the man.
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cman
Not really, God said don't, so of course they did. Human nature, that God created.
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cman
To die and then be born again....so there has to be a death to be born again... whatever born again means....to die before you die...first and second deaths...
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
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T-Bone
Sounds more like you’re trying to describe reincarnation – and since you’ve admitted you don’t know what born again means, it seems you’re grabbing at straws , trying to assert something that lacks any credibility - - which is somewhat pointless in a doctrinal forum…
I realize Grease Spot Café Doctrinal Forum isn’t exactly a highbrow platform for analysis – i.e., breaking down a complex topic into smaller parts in order to gain a better understanding of it, along with some creative synthesis – but most folks try to make a coherent case for their doctrinal dissertation…
Whatever…maybe there’s still hope for this discussion.
There’s probably no better definition of what born again means, than what Jesus said to Nicodemus:
1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. a ”
4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” d
9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. e 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, f 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” g
16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
27To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.” h
31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God i gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not se
John 3 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Comparing the concepts of born again with resurrection they are as different as night and day. Birth is the start of an individual’s life as a physically separate being from the mother. It’s probably best to understand Jesus’ words as drawing upon the motif of physical birth rather than pressing them into a scientifically precise description of a spiritual re-birth.
Resurrection - is the concept of coming back to life after death. At times Scripture speaks of being born and being raised from the dead in metaphors and euphemisms - but to insist that all passages be interpreted as literal is the folly of fundamentalism .
Looking at the context of the Corinthian passage you quoted – the natural sense of resurrection here is a revitalization… a restoration… a regeneration of bodies that were dead and a unique transformation of living bodies...Paul seems to want us to take his references to resurrection in a literal sense:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.” d
33Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” e 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” f ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we g bear the image of the heavenly man.
50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” h
1 Corinthians 15 NIV
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cman
I have admitted to no such thing, just presenting the ideas.
I don't think so, they are very much related if not the very same thing.
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cman
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
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cman
Crazy fonts won't cooperate.
So, no mention of a delay or long period of sleep. There is a word slept somewhere in the bible about the people before Christ came. I'll find it eventually....
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cman
here....
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cman
slept-----Past Tense...awake now..raised from their sleep
Now it's in the twinkling of an eye.
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cman
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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