Hell is simply the grave or the place of the dead. For example, there are NO usages of the word hell for the Old Testament in most newer versions of the bible. Instead the Hebrew Old Testament word with English letters spelled as "sheol" or "sheowl" is primarily translated as "the grave". For example, the New International Version (NIV®) for 1984 does not have any usages of the word “hell” in the entire Old Testament. The following is a link to a TRUTHFUL teaching about the FALSE concept of hell.
I think all the people were raised when Jesus Christ was raised or right after that. Then we each are resurrected after we die.
Do people sometimes think that people who started wars so that they could make money or people that committed crimes so that they could also make money were resurrected after death also? The following verses show judgement with people being judged favorably and being in the book of life. Also people judged unfavorably and being thrown or placed in the lake of fire. The Greek word for fire is "puros", which represents spiritual from God and that includes the judgement of God.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (puros). (New International Version)
The following verses show judgement with people being judged favorably and being in the book of life. Also people judged unfavorably and being thrown or placed in the lake of fire.
So up on throwing people around, aren't you? I don't think those verses say what you think they say.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (NIV)
Most people on this forum here can read all the words of the scriptures, without closing their eyes with certain words, for example the words dead, judged or death. It looks to me like the person sitting on the great white throne, while judging will be and is Jesus Christ. One problem though with me is that I do NOT have a special religious title of Reverend or in the 1st century Pharisee or Sadducee. However, I can at least read all the words of the scriptures without needing to close my eyes with certain words.
each person was judged according to what he had done
I don't think I'd do well in this category. I'll take the lake of fire for $1000 please, probably a thousand years, that's ok with me. The flaming sword turning every way, keeping the tree of life is probably there.
You still are not making a point Mark. I know the scripture.
I don't think I'd do well in this category. I'll take the lake of fire for $1000 please, probably a thousand years, that's ok with me. The flaming sword turning every way, keeping the tree of life is probably there.
You still are not making a point Mark. I know the scripture.
A very good example of a religious person closing his eyes when reading scriptures that are not in harmony with his religious beliefs. This part of Revelation 20:11-15 is after Revelation 20:1-6 with the 1,000 year period with Jesus Christ being assisted by his followers or those in Christ who were raised from the dead. This assistance might even be the authority to judge.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesusand because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (NIV)
It seems more likely that Revelations is about many things already done. Since the scriptures declare we are seated in the heavenlies and passed from death to life.
But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible.
(Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
Thank you for helping me laugh, but I instead use a bible study software program. Hopefully a bible study software program is not intimidating. Regarding Revelation chapter 20. Has the devil in the last number of years ever been locked up so that the devil or Satan can not deceive humanity for a 1,000 year period of time? Then there would be no wars with people living longer and at least a Christ like mindset for humanity.
Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. (NIV)
A thousand years as one day and one day a thousand years.....
Better hang on to mercy and forgiveness cause when that serpent uncoils, you will get bit.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It reads like Cman is making his own bible version, but if you are not then simply type which verses you quoting from and even the version. However, perhaps this is a new bible version called the CMAN bible.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
A bit this, but if these souls under the altar are capable of thought as we know it, how horrible it must be for them to have to wait, knowing that there are others whom they are waiting for who have to be martyred and whose deaths they cannot prevent. Are they under the altar going, "No! Keep away from xxx, they plan to kill you!" or are they saying, "Hey, come on up! Being murdered isn't so bad!"
A bit this, but if these souls under the altar are capable of thought as we know it, how horrible it must be for them to have to wait, knowing that there are others whom they are waiting for who have to be martyred and whose deaths they cannot prevent. Are they under the altar going, "No! Keep away from xxx, they plan to kill you!" or are they saying, "Hey, come on up! Being murdered isn't so bad!"
Well maybe not totally off topic since the discussion is over are the dead alive now.
all this is speculative - as I mentioned to Mark in an earlier post, defining consciousness is the $64,000 question!
Considering the souls under the altar reference will take us on decision tree of possible interpretations of that passage - to recognize possibilities like I posed earlier - the souls under the altar drawing on symbolism of sacrifices in the OT.
OR
If it’s literal, that gets into defining consciousness. HOW are they able to react to the injustices and voice concerns if they are DISEMBODIED souls?
Is it possible DISEMBODIED souls have their own built-in capabilities that we as CORPOREAL beings cannot possibly relate to?
I lean toward appreciating the symbolism. And your comments of the souls made me think of the relevancy the symbolism carries- both when it was written and even now. How grieving parents would want to warn others about the ways criminals target kids. Or how families will want justice in a legal system over a preventable tragedy that happened to a loved one…of course the Revelation passage is in reference to believers being martyred - something I know little about in my comfy cozy world - so I used scenarios I’m familiar with that touch on the same heart-rending emotions.
if anything that passage informs me that God is aware of those issues and will resolve them all.
If there is a second death then there was a first.....sooooo death seems to have been survived at least once....what is death? Thanks to God for the victory over death!
Regarding the word soul from the bible. Here is information from the very informative Nelson Bible Dictionary.
SOUL
A word with two distinct meanings in the Bible:
1. That which makes a human or animal body alive. This usage of the word soul refers to life in the physical body. The best example of this usage are those passages in the New Testament in which the Greek word for soul is translated as life. "For whoever desires to save his life [soul] will lose it," Jesus declared, "but whoever loses his life [soul] for My sake and the gospel's will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Mark 8:36-37).
This idea is also present in the Old Testament. For example, the soul of a dying person departed at death (Genesis 35:18). The prophet Elijah brought a child back to life by stretching himself upon the child three times and praying that God would let the child's soul come back into him (1 Kings 17:19-23).
2. The word soul also refers to the inner life of man, the seat of his emotions, and the center of human personality. The first use of the word soul in the Old Testament expresses this meaning: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul)" (Genesis 2:7). This means more than being given physical life; the biblical writer declares that man became a "living soul," or a person, a human being, one distinct from all other animals.
The soul is described as the seat of many emotions and desires: the desire for food (Deuteronomy 12:20-21), love (Song of Solomon 1:7), longing for God (Psalms 63:1), rejoicing (Psalms 86:4), knowing (Psalms 139:14), and memory (Lamentations 3:20).
If there is a second death then there was a first.....sooooo death seems to have been survived at least once....what is death? Thanks to God for the victory over death!
That depends on one’s definition of death…previously I made reference to a thread I started on Human Nature – in which I shared the ancient Israelites conception of death – NOTas annihilation – but separation.
According to their view physical death= separation of the bodyfrom the life-animating soul/spirit(whateverthatis) – and spiritual death= separation of the life-animating soul/spirit(whatever that is) from God.
In light of this, there are biblical scholars who mention on pages 2310 and 2311 of the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible interpreting the second deathas ETERNAL separation from God mentioned in Rev. 20:14 & Rev. 21:8 – stating that this is talking about eternal conscious torment:
New International Version Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death…Revelation 20:14
New International Version But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death… Revelation 21:8
This seems to be consistent with other passages addressing the eternal state of each person in accordance to what they have done:
And speaking about death – whether - physical and/ or spiritual some folks might enjoy reading Beyond the Cosmos by Hugh Ross.
A word of caution – this is all SPECULATIVE- the author Hugh Ross is an astrophysicistand theorizes about the nature and capabilities of an eternal body each soul will ‘occupy’ … As I said, his book gets into a lot of conjecture referencing things like superstring theory and such…and I guess theoretically what he said sounds plausible – but that’s not to say that’s the only wayGod could work things out…my only reason in mentioning his book is to offer one option how Scriptures that seems to suggest a soul/spirit will be reunited with some type of body that has some physical properties distinct from the immaterial nature of the soul/spirit…that applies to BOTHthe just and the unjust:
New International Version and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned…John 5:29
New International Version and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked…Acts 24:15
and yet Paul's writings keep saying nothing is by our works, good or bad.... How does this make sense with some of these other scriptures, like what has been quoted? Is it the works being destroyed or the person?
and yet Paul's writings keep saying nothing is by our works, good or bad.... How does this make sense with some of these other scriptures, like what has been quoted? Is it the works being destroyed or the person?
Can you define what is NOT by works?
From the Scripture quoted I gather that rewards and punishment are doled out according to one’s works.
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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T-Bone
Got some of that in our pantry…should I be concerned?
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waysider
When I was in FellowLaborers, I worked in a factory that made that. Be concerned. Be very concerned... lol.
Edited by waysiderwording
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hell is simply the grave or the place of the dead. For example, there are NO usages of the word hell for the Old Testament in most newer versions of the bible. Instead the Hebrew Old Testament word with English letters spelled as "sheol" or "sheowl" is primarily translated as "the grave". For example, the New International Version (NIV®) for 1984 does not have any usages of the word “hell” in the entire Old Testament. The following is a link to a TRUTHFUL teaching about the FALSE concept of hell.
https://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/topical/eternal-punishment-pt01-hell-no.htm
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cman
Well hell....
I think all the people were raised when Jesus Christ was raised or right after that. Then we each are resurrected after we die.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Do people sometimes think that people who started wars so that they could make money or people that committed crimes so that they could also make money were resurrected after death also? The following verses show judgement with people being judged favorably and being in the book of life. Also people judged unfavorably and being thrown or placed in the lake of fire. The Greek word for fire is "puros", which represents spiritual from God and that includes the judgement of God.
Revelation 20:12-15
Edited by Mark Sanguinetti12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire (puros). (New International Version)
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cman
Hm... yeah... the books are open... book of life
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cman
So up on throwing people around, aren't you? I don't think those verses say what you think they say.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (NIV)
Most people on this forum here can read all the words of the scriptures, without closing their eyes with certain words, for example the words dead, judged or death. It looks to me like the person sitting on the great white throne, while judging will be and is Jesus Christ. One problem though with me is that I do NOT have a special religious title of Reverend or in the 1st century Pharisee or Sadducee. However, I can at least read all the words of the scriptures without needing to close my eyes with certain words.
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cman
I don't think I'd do well in this category. I'll take the lake of fire for $1000 please, probably a thousand years, that's ok with me. The flaming sword turning every way, keeping the tree of life is probably there.
You still are not making a point Mark. I know the scripture.
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Mark Sanguinetti
A very good example of a religious person closing his eyes when reading scriptures that are not in harmony with his religious beliefs. This part of Revelation 20:11-15 is after Revelation 20:1-6 with the 1,000 year period with Jesus Christ being assisted by his followers or those in Christ who were raised from the dead. This assistance might even be the authority to judge.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (NIV)
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cman
Using scripture to beat people up is not for me.
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waysider
Yeah, me neither.
But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible.
(Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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cman
It seems more likely that Revelations is about many things already done. Since the scriptures declare we are seated in the heavenlies and passed from death to life.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you for helping me laugh, but I instead use a bible study software program. Hopefully a bible study software program is not intimidating. Regarding Revelation chapter 20. Has the devil in the last number of years ever been locked up so that the devil or Satan can not deceive humanity for a 1,000 year period of time? Then there would be no wars with people living longer and at least a Christ like mindset for humanity.
Revelation 20:1-3
Edited by Mark Sanguinetti1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. (NIV)
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cman
A thousand years as one day and one day a thousand years.....
Better hang on to mercy and forgiveness cause when that serpent uncoils, you will get bit.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
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cman
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Mark Sanguinetti
It reads like Cman is making his own bible version, but if you are not then simply type which verses you quoting from and even the version. However, perhaps this is a new bible version called the CMAN bible.
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Twinky
A bit
this, but if these souls under the altar are capable of thought as we know it, how horrible it must be for them to have to wait, knowing that there are others whom they are waiting for who have to be martyred and whose deaths they cannot prevent. Are they under the altar going, "No! Keep away from xxx, they plan to kill you!" or are they saying, "Hey, come on up! Being murdered isn't so bad!"
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T-Bone
Well maybe not totally off topic since the discussion is over are the dead alive now.
all this is speculative - as I mentioned to Mark in an earlier post, defining consciousness is the $64,000 question!
Considering the souls under the altar reference will take us on decision tree of possible interpretations of that passage - to recognize possibilities like I posed earlier - the souls under the altar drawing on symbolism of sacrifices in the OT.
OR
If it’s literal, that gets into defining consciousness. HOW are they able to react to the injustices and voice concerns if they are DISEMBODIED souls?
Is it possible DISEMBODIED souls have their own built-in capabilities that we as CORPOREAL beings cannot possibly relate to?
I lean toward appreciating the symbolism. And your comments of the souls made me think of the relevancy the symbolism carries- both when it was written and even now. How grieving parents would want to warn others about the ways criminals target kids. Or how families will want justice in a legal system over a preventable tragedy that happened to a loved one…of course the Revelation passage is in reference to believers being martyred - something I know little about in my comfy cozy world - so I used scenarios I’m familiar with that touch on the same heart-rending emotions.
if anything that passage informs me that God is aware of those issues and will resolve them all.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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cman
If there is a second death then there was a first.....sooooo death seems to have been survived at least once....what is death? Thanks to God for the victory over death!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Regarding the word soul from the bible. Here is information from the very informative Nelson Bible Dictionary.
SOUL
A word with two distinct meanings in the Bible:
1. That which makes a human or animal body alive. This usage of the word soul refers to life in the physical body. The best example of this usage are those passages in the New Testament in which the Greek word for soul is translated as life. "For whoever desires to save his life [soul] will lose it," Jesus declared, "but whoever loses his life [soul] for My sake and the gospel's will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Mark 8:36-37).
This idea is also present in the Old Testament. For example, the soul of a dying person departed at death (Genesis 35:18). The prophet Elijah brought a child back to life by stretching himself upon the child three times and praying that God would let the child's soul come back into him (1 Kings 17:19-23).
2. The word soul also refers to the inner life of man, the seat of his emotions, and the center of human personality. The first use of the word soul in the Old Testament expresses this meaning: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul)" (Genesis 2:7). This means more than being given physical life; the biblical writer declares that man became a "living soul," or a person, a human being, one distinct from all other animals.
The soul is described as the seat of many emotions and desires: the desire for food (Deuteronomy 12:20-21), love (Song of Solomon 1:7), longing for God (Psalms 63:1), rejoicing (Psalms 86:4), knowing (Psalms 139:14), and memory (Lamentations 3:20).
In the New Testament, Jesus spoke of his soul as being "exceedingly sorrowful" (Matthew 26:38). Mary, the mother of Jesus, proclaimed that her soul "magnifies the Lord" (Luke 1:46). John prayed that Gaius would "prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers" (3 John 2).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Regarding soul referring to life in the physical body. This involves the ability to breath which is needed for our physical bodies.
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T-Bone
That depends on one’s definition of death…previously I made reference to a thread I started on Human Nature – in which I shared the ancient Israelites conception of death – NOT as annihilation – but separation.
According to their view physical death = separation of the body from the life-animating soul/spirit (whatever that is
) – and spiritual death = separation of the life-animating soul/spirit (whatever that is 
) from God.
In light of this, there are biblical scholars who mention on pages 2310 and 2311 of the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible interpreting the second death as ETERNAL separation from God mentioned in Rev. 20:14 & Rev. 21:8 – stating that this is talking about eternal conscious torment:
New International Version
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death…Revelation 20:14
New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death… Revelation 21:8
This seems to be consistent with other passages addressing the eternal state of each person in accordance to what they have done:
Psalm 62:12 NIV: and with you, Lord, is unfailing love"; and, "You reward everyone according to what they have done." (biblehub.com)
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. (biblehub.com)
Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds." (biblehub.com)
And speaking about death – whether - physical and/ or spiritual some folks might enjoy reading Beyond the Cosmos by Hugh Ross.
A word of caution – this is all SPECULATIVE - the author Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist and theorizes about the nature and capabilities of an eternal body each soul will ‘occupy’ … As I said, his book gets into a lot of conjecture referencing things like superstring theory and such…and I guess theoretically what he said sounds plausible – but that’s not to say that’s the only way God could work things out…my only reason in mentioning his book is to offer one option how Scriptures that seems to suggest a soul/spirit will be reunited with some type of body that has some physical properties distinct from the immaterial nature of the soul/spirit…that applies to BOTH the just and the unjust:
New International Version
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned…John 5:29
New International Version
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked…Acts 24:15
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cman
and yet Paul's writings keep saying nothing is by our works, good or bad.... How does this make sense with some of these other scriptures, like what has been quoted? Is it the works being destroyed or the person?
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T-Bone
Can you define what is NOT by works?
From the Scripture quoted I gather that rewards and punishment are doled out according to one’s works.
I don’t understand your question.
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