You guys and girls know the doctrine of the second coming and all that involves, people go to sleep when they die and don't wake up until Christ comes back, deal.
I don't think that is true in any part of it. I believe all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now.
Yeah, Cman a thought-provoking point!
Sorry I’m late to the party – I’ve been busy catching up on some reading projects…when I saw your post, some stuff I had already published on another thread - Human Nature and the Fall , came to mind…I hope you don’t mind my being boring by quoting myself…uhm…but actually most my ‘reiterated’ posts are excerpts and hyperlinks from legitimate resources with my occasional comments on relevancy to the topic of what is death.
What is death?
I decided to explore human nature - not only in Biblical theology – but also through other legitimate disciplines. Besides appreciating what the Bible says about the makeup of humankind we also need to seek a comprehensive understanding of that which can undermine what appears to be the original design and purpose of humankind – especially by two of the biggest threats – sin and death.
15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. 16 Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 15-17 NET
Heb. “dying you will die.” The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, “when you eat…you will die.” That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute.
The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (dying spiritually, you will then die physically). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined. Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God. Both occur with sin, although the physical alienation is more gradual than instant, and the spiritual is immediate, although the effects of it continue the separation.
End of excerpts
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Below are a few hyperlinks – food for thought on death:
The following is a summary of some stuff about death that I read in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Kindle Edition - location 45009ff – sorry no page numbers this is Kindle version …anyway, here’s some stuff I thought was noteworthy:
Because death did not immediately befall Adam and Eve on the day of transgression, but took hundreds of years later the expression “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (as it so reads in Gen. 2:17 KJV) must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy Gen. 3:15.
However, the Bible Encyclopedia states Gen. 2:17 may be showing a close connection of violating God’s commandment and the resultant consequences thereby attaching to death a religious and ethical significance and makes the lives of humankind dependent on obedience to God. The religious-ethical nature of life and death is not only decidedly and clearly expressed in the early chapters of Genesis, but we find it is the fundamental thought in the entire Bible and forms an essential element in many of the declarations of salvation.
The Encyclopedia goes on to say some theologians past and present have denied the spiritual significance of death and have separated the connection between ethical and physical life, usually base their opinions on passages that show death as a punishment for sin Rom. 5:12Romans 6:23I Cor. 15:21 …this opinion has some merit though – since we are made aware of the consequences of the weaknesses and frailty of human nature Job 14:1Eccl. 3:20 …For the most part death is portrayed as something natural.
What is the meaning of death?
The Encyclopedia states that we are influenced by the Greek Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal – but such an idea is utterly foreign to the ancient Hebrew concept of death – and is not found in the OT. The whole person dies, when in death the spirit Eccl. 12:7 or soul I Ki. 17:21 goes out of them. Death is not understood to be annihilation – as in complete extermination…utter destruction…obliterated, but rather deriving one of all that makes for life on earth. To the Israelites death meant separation from all that they loved – separation from God, and from His service, His law, His people, His land. The physical contrast between life and death gradually makes way for the moral and spiritual difference between life spent in the fear of the Lord, and a life in the service of sin.
Edited October 28, 2022 by T-Bone rebellious editor says: Typos thou art and unto typos thou shalt return
Considering your question, “are the dead alive now?”check out Revelation 9:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
There’s quite a number of things to unpack in these verses – and I don’t pretend to be qualified to do that – but I will say the two of the most fascinating issues to wrestle with here are the rich symbolism and biblical terminology ("soul" & "spirit")…
…To briefly digress back to my Human Nature thread, I did a study of soul and spirit and found the biblical writers used the two words interchangeably – see my posts here,here , and here…
The other thing - the imagery or symbolism of “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained” if not to be taken literallycanexpress or represent deeper meanings or themes that are immaterial, ideal, or intangible. Symbolism can vary depending on the context, culture, or personal perspective of the user or viewer of the symbols.
Both the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible page 2234andthe NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible page 2289 say similar things about Rev. 6:9-11 : this was a common Biblical plea for God’s swift intervention (e.g. Ps. 6:3; 35:17; 79:5; 80:4; Hab. 1:2; Zec. 1:12) and in Jewish apocalyptic traditions, the righteous continued crying for vindication until the judgement; in one source- possibly later than the book of Revelation – the righteous ask, “How long?” and an archangel responds, “Until your number is complete”, 4 Ezra 4:33-37. The OT sacrificial imagery recalls the altar of incense or the altar of burnt offering (Lev. 4:7) – referring to Christian martyrs Revelation 5:9 , Revelation 18:24 , and Revelation 20:4
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Let me be clear on Revelation 6 – to me it’s unclear on how to interpret Rev. 6 in light of your question. I’m thinking any otherworldly narratives in the Bible are not there to portray with scientific precision the metaphysical realm – so I wouldn’t use Rev. 6 as proof the dead are alive now. To me it’s the deeper meaning that it gives to Christians who make the ultimate sacrifice…
…and for what it’s worth – my opinion on the topic is that the dead are alive now – how, in what form, and what relevancy it has to the living - I don’t know.
How? I don't know either except that what I am will continue after I die, and in what form, I don't know. Good work on Revelations there, a lot to think about.
If the work of Jesus Christ was complete, then why wouldn't the dead live on. The work is completed, there is no need for him to come again as separated from us to reconcile, it's already done. Any reconciliation would be on an individual basis as is all the work of God coming from the inside of his greatest work.
You guys and girls know the doctrine of the second coming and all that involves, people go to sleep when they die and don't wake up until Christ comes back, deal.
I don't think that is true in any part of it. I believe all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now.
I do not recommend believing the first deception spoken to humanity by the serpent or the devil. In quoting from the book, "Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ", near the beginning of the chapter, "When Will the Dead Be Made Alive Through Jesus Christ?"
Quote
The first example of deception is read in Genesis 3:1-6. Here the devil as a spiritual being is symbolically referred to as a serpent, which is a crawling large snake or reptile. Before this in Genesis 2:15, God put man in the garden “to work it and take care of it.” (NIV®) This was likely both physical and spiritual since death had not yet arrived for Adam. Adam had the free will ability to do what he thought he needed or wanted to do. In Genesis 2:16-17, after creating the world including agriculture, animals and mankind. God told Adam that he was “free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (NIV®). This commandment by God was given as a test to Adam of his obedience to God the creator with proof that Adam was dependent of or needed God. This accountability to God was humanity following God regarding the knowledge of good and evil instead of humanity not relying on God, while trying to determine all without God’s help. Next begins the deception.
Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said to the woman, Ye will not certainly die;5 but God knows that in the day ye eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as God, knowing good and evil.(Darby)
The devil, seen as a serpent, deceptively said to the newly created woman called Eve that you won’t die when you do something that God previously told Adam not to do. The woman did not agree with the serpent at first. However, since the devil can be described as the God of deception, got her to ignore the word of God, while instead following what the serpent said to do. This was trying to figure everything out for yourself without God’s help of the knowledge of good compared to evil. Then Eve talked Adam into following the same deception. The result was a physical decay of humanity with death to follow. Or as Genesis 3:19 symbolically states, “For dust thou art; and unto dust shalt thou return.” (Darby)
Cherry picking some things to be symbolic, and other things are not? Genesis is a lot more informative then at first glance. Thinking of Adam being the masculine and Eve being the feminine would fit with symbolism.
Anyway, death has been defeated. I'm not really sure what your point is, Mark.
If the dead are alive then why do we need a gathering together and two ressurrections? Are we ressurecting living people?
Good question. I don’t know.
Some of the things I speculate about on this goes back to the ancient biblical concepts of death I shared about in a previous post – like physical death being a separation of the body from the life-animating spirit or soul - whatever that is. Thus, technically death is not annihilation or a cessation of existence.
In Genesis humankind is created out of several “components” for lack of a better term. How one breaks that down is a matter of opinion. The trichotomy view – humankind was originally composed of body, soul and spirit – which is held by some groups like TWI. The dichotomy view – humankind are composed of body and soul / spirit – see the hyperlinks in my previous post from the Human Nature thread. Personally, I lean toward the dichotomy view – which simply distinguishes between the material and immaterial “parts” of humankind:
26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them…Genesis 1 NIV
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5Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being…Genesis 2 NIV
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I think things can get silly when we interpret the Bible like a scientific textbook. To me, what the above passages suggest is that there’s two sides to our existence – natural and supernatural. Also, it seems to me the soul / spirit components were meant to be “housed” in something physical…In light of that, when I read I Corinthians 15, it does seem to suggest a few things depending on the current physical status. If one has been dead – the physical elements of their body must be reconstituted. What if they’ve been dead for eons – disintegrated into the surroundings? I don’t know how God is going to pull all this off.
Just all speculation here on my part. One possibility could be something gee-whiz-hi-tech like in the film The Iron Giant (1999) . One of our favorite movies – near the end of the story this huge robot from another world saves a small town from a nuclear missile but it is blown to smithereens in the process. Robot parts are scattered all over the globe. The story closes with scenes of Robot parts responding to a homing signal from the head and they go flopping, bouncing, crawling in the direction of the head…
Similar to the tech that Tony Stark invented - injecting neural transmitters into his arm in the beginning of Iron Man 3 (2013), which enables him to summon the various parts of his suit of armor…
jumping to other thoughts – in superstring theory one of the suppositions that theoretical physicists posit is that down at the smallest level of “stuff” we’ll find unique loops – or strings. And that each string has a unique frequency. This identifies and sets the properties of the string. In Beyond the Cosmos: The Transdimensionality of God by Hugh Ross astrophysicist Ross speculates among other things how Jesus Christ could walk through walls in his new body by altering the properties of his body…of course this is all speculation…now think about this:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven…Luke 10:20
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books…Revelation 20:12
Think of all the stuff that has been written, recorded and documented in our world. Is it too hard to imagine there’s some divine beings – angels - who are in charge of keeping records – logging the unique frequencies of each created being…now go to I Corinthians 15 – maybe it’s talking about the reassembling of the stuff our bodies are made of – note it speaks of being clothed – I have another idea to think about after you read the following:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…1 Corinthians 15 NIV
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Now remember these passages from my previous post:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been…Revelation 6:9-11 NIV
I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.
I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.
Interesting. Well, I've been reading the Book of Enoch which was removed from the canon and it shouldn't have been. It's quoted copiously through the new testament. It gives detail on the the subject but I'm not to that part quit yet....more later...good thoughts though...have my attention 4 sure.
Interesting. Well, I've been reading the Book of Enoch which was removed from the canon and it shouldn't have been. It's quoted copiously through the new testament. It gives detail on the the subject but I'm not to that part quit yet....more later...good thoughts though...have my attention 4 sure.
Don't mean to derail, but I just can't help myself. All apologies.
The Enoch scrolls fell out of the bookcase when Timothy hit a bump on the road to meet up with Paul. That's why it didn't make it into most canons. Timothy lost it and Paul corrected him with great spiritual anger. (Don't ask how I know this. Just know I eat cookies.)
Fortunately, some Ethiopians that were traveling behind Timothy picked up what he dropped. That's how it made it into the Ethiopian Orthodox canon.
Enoch was also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fascinating topic, Enoch.
Some of the things I speculate about on this goes back to the ancient biblical concepts of death I shared about in a previous post – like physical death being a separation of the body from the life-animating spirit or soul - whatever that is. Thus, technically death is not annihilation or a cessation of existence.
In Genesis humankind is created out of several “components” for lack of a better term. How one breaks that down is a matter of opinion. The trichotomy view – humankind was originally composed of body, soul and spirit – which is held by some groups like TWI. The dichotomy view – humankind are composed of body and soul / spirit – see the hyperlinks in my previous post from the Human Nature thread. Personally, I lean toward the dichotomy view – which simply distinguishes between the material and immaterial “parts” of humankind:
26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them…Genesis 1 NIV
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5Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being…Genesis 2 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
I think things can get silly when we interpret the Bible like a scientific textbook. To me, what the above passages suggest is that there’s two sides to our existence – natural and supernatural. Also, it seems to me the soul / spirit components were meant to be “housed” in something physical…In light of that, when I read I Corinthians 15, it does seem to suggest a few things depending on the current physical status. If one has been dead – the physical elements of their body must be reconstituted. What if they’ve been dead for eons – disintegrated into the surroundings? I don’t know how God is going to pull all this off.
Just all speculation here on my part. One possibility could be something gee-whiz-hi-tech like in the film The Iron Giant (1999) . One of our favorite movies – near the end of the story this huge robot from another world saves a small town from a nuclear missile but it is blown to smithereens in the process. Robot parts are scattered all over the globe. The story closes with scenes of Robot parts responding to a homing signal from the head and they go flopping, bouncing, crawling in the direction of the head…
Similar to the tech that Tony Stark invented - injecting neural transmitters into his arm in the beginning of Iron Man 3 (2013), which enables him to summon the various parts of his suit of armor…
jumping to other thoughts – in superstring theory one of the suppositions that theoretical physicists posit is that down at the smallest level of “stuff” we’ll find unique loops – or strings. And that each string has a unique frequency. This identifies and sets the properties of the string. In Beyond the Cosmos: The Transdimensionality of God by Hugh Ross astrophysicist Ross speculates among other things how Jesus Christ could walk through walls in his new body by altering the properties of his body…of course this is all speculation…now think about this:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven…Luke 10:20
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books…Revelation 20:12
Think of all the stuff that has been written, recorded and documented in our world. Is it too hard to imagine there’s some divine beings – angels - who are in charge of keeping records – logging the unique frequencies of each created being…now go to I Corinthians 15 – maybe it’s talking about the reassembling of the stuff our bodies are made of – note it speaks of being clothed – I have another idea to think about after you read the following:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…1 Corinthians 15 NIV
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Now remember these passages from my previous post:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been…Revelation 6:9-11 NIV
I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.
The Revelation chapter 6 stuff is interesting. With respect to the timing of all that I think that period of time is post gathering together.
The end times timing throughout there describes tribulations befalling the end times believers and the periods involved.
Also there seems to be a preparation period for the final battle then the battle itself.
The third heaven and earth would be post apocalyptic.
Its not readily apparent to me what the seals represent but they could have a temporal aspect meaning a period of time or series of events that occur to open the seal.
The white robe also seems to be obscured at the moment - perhaps it would take the opening of the 5th seal for the meaning to become fully known…
The Revelation chapter 6 stuff is interesting. With respect to the timing of all that I think that period of time is post gathering together.
The end times timing throughout there describes tribulations befalling the end times believers and the periods involved.
Also there seems to be a preparation period for the final battle then the battle itself.
The third heaven and earth would be post apocalyptic.
Its not readily apparent to me what the seals represent but they could have a temporal aspect meaning a period of time or series of events that occur to open the seal.
The white robe also seems to be obscured at the moment - perhaps it would take the opening of the 5th seal for the meaning to become fully known…
Some thoughts.
Then we come across Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Is this the last trump? If so it presents all kinds of problems to dispensationalism and our understanding of God's timing and the entire book of Revelation for that matter.
Christians often have more deception today than they did with the original creation of humanity. Sometimes Christian organizations or denominations do NOT believe in death, but instead teach that most people go to hell with eternal torment and only some people go to heaven to be with God. This relates to the mythology or myths of hell. I wonder if the priority for people going to heaven after they breath their last physical breath is being part of their denomination??? Instead, the bible teaches that there will be two resurrections of the dead, as taught in the book of Revelation, chapter 20. The first resurrection is to be with Christ while being part of the 1000 year period. Then the second Resurrection of judgement. People that did not commit crimes in their lives will be judged more favorably than people who committed crimes and perhaps were never even charged for their crime.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead (nekros), small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (hades or the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell (hades or the grave) were cast into the lake of fire (puros). This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (puros). (KJV)
The final chapters of the book of Revelation gives some thoughts or perhaps even detail about the new heaven and earth and the book of life for humanity.
In addition, a Christian Ministry a few miles north of Dallas, Texas that has a web site which they teach from has the following teaching about this subject.
Do We Go to Heaven When We Die?
by Andy Burnett and Erik Jones
What actually happens when we die? Do Christians go to heaven after death? Or maybe—the other place? What the Bible says happens after death may surprise you.
Interesting. Well, I've been reading the Book of Enoch which was removed from the canon and it shouldn't have been. It's quoted copiously through the new testament. It gives detail on the the subject but I'm not to that part quit yet....more later...good thoughts though...have my attention 4 sure.
4 hours ago, OldSkool said:
Then we come across Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Is this the last trump? If so it presents all kinds of problems to dispensationalism and our understanding of God's timing and the entire book of Revelation for that matter.
Hey OldSkool,
just wanted to share some pertinent information to your posts…I thought you might get a kick out of the NICNT by Mounce mentioning the book of Enoch…The book of Revelation is one of my 7 favorite books of the Bible – I’ve got a pretty good selection of commentaries by various scholars with differing viewpoints – but I don’t want to give the impression to anyone I’m an expert on Revelation…rather I key off a question or point someone makes on Grease Spot – probably triggers something I’ve read and reread many times before...That's one of the things I like about Grease Spot Cafe - the give and take of it all...I like how the input of others helps me to focus and organize and reorganize all this stuff that I read. Maybe someday it will all make sense to me!
…I think these excerpts might help sort out a couple of things…maybe not …anyway…I quote Revelation 10: 5 – 7 first, because the commentaries draw some on the buildup to 7 …so here goes:
5Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”…Revelation 10 NIV
The proclamation of the mighty angel is that there shall be no further delay, but with the sounding of the seventh trumpet the hidden purpose of God will be accomplished. The NKJ translation, “when he is about to sound,” could be taken to mean the mystery of God will be completed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet. What the angel is saying, however, is that within that period of time to be introduced by the seventh trumpet blast the mystery of God will be brought to completion.
A great deal of attention has been given to the meaning of “the mystery of God.” In Col. 2:2 the exact phrase is used to refer to Christ, in whom are hidden the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist ( 1 Enoch 71:3ff.; also 40:2: 46:2).
An eschatological orientation is always present in the NT use of the word. In Rom. 11:25 the final destiny of Israel is a “mystery.” The “mystery” of 1 Cor. 15:55 is the change that will overtake the believer at Christ’s return. In 2 Thess.2:7 the “mystery of lawlessness” (RSV) that is at present restrained will soon be fully revealed and at the coming of Christ will be destroyed.
The mystery of God in Rev. 10:7 shares this apocalyptic coloring and refers to the purpose of God as revealed in the consummation of human history…
…The drama has now moved to that moment immediately preceding the final scene. From this point on, the Apocalypse becomes a multidimensional presentation of the final triumph of God over evil. Any attempt to arrange the material in a strictly sequential pattern is doomed to failure. From his vantage point on the brink of eternity John unveils the evil forces that operate behind the scenes of history and in the last days will mount a final and furious assault upon the faithful (12:12, 17).
We would have expected the seventh angel to blow his trumpet to introduce the series of seven plagues. This is not the case here, because John is writing only a preliminary reference to this event and not the event itself, which will take place in 11:15. With this reference he tells the reader to wait until he has completed the writing of his interlude that describes the task of God’s people on earth.
In other words, the blowing of the seventh trumpet will not occur immediately during or after John’s lifetime. When the trumpet sounds, the days of the end have arrived and are made visible by several visions. The trumpet blast announces the message that the end is at hand and the consummation of this age is near. And when this trumpet is heard, the second woe belongs to the past (11:14). The third woe encompasses the judgment (11:15b – 19)…
…The events take place in the future, at the time when the mystery of God will be accomplished. Interestingly, whereas in the translation the future tense of the verbto accomplishis used, the Greek text shows the past tense. In Greek the past tense has a futuristic connotation that should be understood not from the author’s point of view but from God’s eventual fulfillment. When the delay has run its course (v.6), the trumpet of the seventh angel will sound and God will cause his mysterious plan to become a reality. When this trumpet sounds, the time has come for God and his Christ to rule the kingdom of the world and to judge the dead (11:15 – 18). The cry of the souls under the altar asking for judgement will be fulfilled on the Judgement Day (6:10; 20: 11 – 15), and the blowing of the seventh trumpet is a sign of that day.
Christians often have more deception today than they did with the original creation of humanity. Sometimes Christian organizations or denominations do NOT believe in death, but instead teach that most people go to hell with eternal torment and only some people go to heaven to be with God. This relates to the mythology or myths of hell. I wonder if the priority for people going to heaven after they breath their last physical breath is being part of their denomination??? Instead, the bible teaches that there will be two resurrections of the dead, as taught in the book of Revelation, chapter 20. The first resurrection is to be with Christ while being part of the 1000 year period. Then the second Resurrection of judgement. People that did not commit crimes in their lives will be judged more favorably than people who committed crimes and perhaps were never even charged for their crime.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead (nekros), small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (hades or the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell (hades or the grave) were cast into the lake of fire (puros). This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (puros). (KJV)
The final chapters of the book of Revelation gives some thoughts or perhaps even detail about the new heaven and earth and the book of life for humanity.
In addition, a Christian Ministry a few miles north of Dallas, Texas that has a web site which they teach from has the following teaching about this subject.
Do We Go to Heaven When We Die?
by Andy Burnett and Erik Jones
What actually happens when we die? Do Christians go to heaven after death? Or maybe—the other place? What the Bible says happens after death may surprise you.
Cool post – thanks for the hyperlink do we go to heaven after we die…I read it and intend to reread it a few more times.
When wierwille taught on body, soul, and spirit in PFAL and in ADAN, I never felt like he adequately addressed what happens to the soul and spirit (keeping with his trichotomy view). The matter of consciousness is a deep deep subject even now – let alone in ancient times. I get the euphemism of sleep…wonder if it's anything like being put under anesthesia for surgery. That's a weird experience! I come out of it after a surgery - and there's no memory of feelings during the surgery - nor any weird dreams...One time I joked with the doctor afterwards "come on, this is all a scam - you didn't do anything, right -you can be honest with me."
...not going anywhere in this post – just some random thoughts…if death is separation of body and life-animating soul/spirit. Where does the soul/spirit go?
And how much of our personality is in our body/soul/spirit? The body has the sensory inputs - locomotion capabilities ...we must need a body - so - what's it like being bodiless? what can I do?
So, all the dead souls are just floating around somewhere right now? Are there other angels (besides the ones that keep good records of each person/personhood) that will coordinate with the record keepers to reunite reconstituted body/soul/spirit? what about all that superstring theory stuff and the extra dimensions? I've seen estimates of 10 up to 26 dimensions total. Does the soul/spirit have existence outside of our 3 known dimensions + time? In other words, in the other dimensions? when everything is said and done at the end of the book of Revelation are all the dimensions unraveled? united? connected - or rather re-connected?
just wanted to share some pertinent information to your posts…I thought you might get a kick out of the NICNT by Mounce mentioning the book of Enoch…The book of Revelation is one of my 7 favorite books of the Bible – I’ve got a pretty good selection of commentaries by various scholars with differing viewpoints – but I don’t want to give the impression to anyone I’m an expert on Revelation…rather I key off a question or point someone makes on Grease Spot – probably triggers something I’ve read and reread many times before...That's one of the things I like about Grease Spot Cafe - the give and take of it all...I like how the input of others helps me to focus and organize and reorganize all this stuff that I read. Maybe someday it will all make sense to me!
…I think these excerpts might help sort out a couple of things…maybe not …anyway…I quote Revelation 10: 5 – 7 first, because the commentaries draw some on the buildup to 7 …so here goes:
5Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”…Revelation 10 NIV
The proclamation of the mighty angel is that there shall be no further delay, but with the sounding of the seventh trumpet the hidden purpose of God will be accomplished. The NKJ translation, “when he is about to sound,” could be taken to mean the mystery of God will be completed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet. What the angel is saying, however, is that within that period of time to be introduced by the seventh trumpet blast the mystery of God will be brought to completion.
A great deal of attention has been given to the meaning of “the mystery of God.” In Col. 2:2 the exact phrase is used to refer to Christ, in whom are hidden the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist ( 1 Enoch 71:3ff.; also 40:2: 46:2).
An eschatological orientation is always present in the NT use of the word. In Rom. 11:25 the final destiny of Israel is a “mystery.” The “mystery” of 1 Cor. 15:55 is the change that will overtake the believer at Christ’s return. In 2 Thess.2:7 the “mystery of lawlessness” (RSV) that is at present restrained will soon be fully revealed and at the coming of Christ will be destroyed.
The mystery of God in Rev. 10:7 shares this apocalyptic coloring and refers to the purpose of God as revealed in the consummation of human history…
…The drama has now moved to that moment immediately preceding the final scene. From this point on, the Apocalypse becomes a multidimensional presentation of the final triumph of God over evil. Any attempt to arrange the material in a strictly sequential pattern is doomed to failure. From his vantage point on the brink of eternity John unveils the evil forces that operate behind the scenes of history and in the last days will mount a final and furious assault upon the faithful (12:12, 17).
We would have expected the seventh angel to blow his trumpet to introduce the series of seven plagues. This is not the case here, because John is writing only a preliminary reference to this event and not the event itself, which will take place in 11:15. With this reference he tells the reader to wait until he has completed the writing of his interlude that describes the task of God’s people on earth.
In other words, the blowing of the seventh trumpet will not occur immediately during or after John’s lifetime. When the trumpet sounds, the days of the end have arrived and are made visible by several visions. The trumpet blast announces the message that the end is at hand and the consummation of this age is near. And when this trumpet is heard, the second woe belongs to the past (11:14). The third woe encompasses the judgment (11:15b – 19)…
…The events take place in the future, at the time when the mystery of God will be accomplished. Interestingly, whereas in the translation the future tense of the verbto accomplishis used, the Greek text shows the past tense. In Greek the past tense has a futuristic connotation that should be understood not from the author’s point of view but from God’s eventual fulfillment. When the delay has run its course (v.6), the trumpet of the seventh angel will sound and God will cause his mysterious plan to become a reality. When this trumpet sounds, the time has come for God and his Christ to rule the kingdom of the world and to judge the dead (11:15 – 18). The cry of the souls under the altar asking for judgement will be fulfilled on the Judgement Day (6:10; 20: 11 – 15), and the blowing of the seventh trumpet is a sign of that day.
End of excerpts
I disagree with the commentaries in that they do not cite the mystery of God.
Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
There are many mysteries in scripture but only one "the mystery of God". Then there are mysteries within mysteries...
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So, to me it's problematic for dispensationalist theology when Revelation is supposed to be to another administration (it clearly is not) and in Revelation 10:7 we have a last trump about to sound that concludes the mystery of God. Am I decisive on anything yet....no....I appreciate you taking the time to post the commentaries, thanlks. Ive been looking at Rev 10:7 for at least three years now and havent found a commentary yet that handles the mystery that is revealed in the Church epistles.
I disagree with the commentaries in that they do not cite the mystery of God.
Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
There are many mysteries in scripture but only one "the mystery of God". Then there are mysteries within mysteries...
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So, to me it's problematic for dispensationalist theology when Revelation is supposed to be to another administration (it clearly is not) and in Revelation 10:7 we have a last trump about to sound that concludes the mystery of God. Am I decisive on anything yet....no....I appreciate you taking the time to post the commentaries, thanlks. Ive been looking at Rev 10:7 for at least three years now and havent found a commentary yet that handles the mystery that is revealed in the Church epistles.
Yes this all makes me wonder if the whole mystery concept is a consolidation of all of these different time periods with their rules into one standard overall that applies to all no matter the time origin or ethnic origin.
Jews and Gentiles merging into one. Pre and post tribulation Christians merging into one.
And then eventually all just one world and new heaven and earth that is not as complicated as this one.
Yes most commentaries are not focused on “The Great Mystery” like we were in Plaffy.
I guess to me it isn’t as much hype as VP jumped around about. It’s like eventually the justice system will be fair, expedient and functional. Cool.
Yes this all makes me wonder if the whole mystery concept is a consolidation of all of these different time periods with their rules into one standard overall that applies to all no matter the time origin or ethnic origin.
Jews and Gentiles merging into one. Pre and post tribulation Christians merging into one.
And then eventually all just one world and new heaven and earth that is not as complicated as this one.
Yes most commentaries are not focused on “The Great Mystery” like we were in Plaffy.
I guess to me it isn’t as much hype as VP jumped around about. It’s like eventually the justice system will be fair, expedient and functional. Cool.
Maybe I’m under reacting.
That is in part what the mystery is all about. That man made after the first Adam would be redeemed and made a-new after the last Adam Jesus Christ. So, yes, all will be summed as one new man under the same just laws of God almighty.
Wierwille tried to make it all about Christ in you and that power was to be tapped like a spiritual keg to bring abundance. Lies.
I disagree with the commentaries in that they do not cite the mystery of God.
Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
There are many mysteries in scripture but only one "the mystery of God". Then there are mysteries within mysteries...
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So, to me it's problematic for dispensationalist theology when Revelation is supposed to be to another administration (it clearly is not) and in Revelation 10:7 we have a last trump about to sound that concludes the mystery of God. Am I decisive on anything yet....no....I appreciate you taking the time to post the commentaries, thanlks. Ive been looking at Rev 10:7 for at least three years now and havent found a commentary yet that handles the mystery that is revealed in the Church epistles.
I thought Mounce’s reference to Colossians 2:2 NIV was in reference to the Mystery of Christ.
The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”Daniel 2:47
I think dispensationalist theology may inadvertently fragment the Mystery of Christ. Some commentaries explain that the Ephesians 3 Mystery of Christ was not as obviousbefore Pentecost:
4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
“What these prophets did not make clear was the connection with the coming of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Spirit the old theocracy would be completely abolished and in its place would arise a new organism in which the Gentiles and the Jews would be placed on a footing of perfect equality”…from Exposition of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon by William Hendriksen page 154.
If you look up the NT scholar William Hendriksen you might read about his influential work Israel and Prophecy, written a year after the 1967 war, and still in print, Hendriksen criticized the view, held by dispensationalists and Christian Zionists, that the Bible prophesies the return and restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel. Dispensationalist pastor Barry Horner describes Hendriksen's work as "a classic representation of replacement theology". Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight on dispensations, no dispensations, Pez Dispensers. I imagine God looks at groups, sects, religions and such a lot differently than we do anyway – and I’m becoming more of an inclusive kind of guy than exclusive.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s an approximately 34 minute You Tube video by Dr. Michael Heiser that addresses a few details mentioned on this thread video is here> Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Michael S. Heiser- Heiser points out a problem with 1 Corinthians 15 NIVandRevelation 20 NIV . Heiser asks of 1 Corinthians 15:54 is this the final victory over death. If you say “yes” then what about Revelation 20:14this is the final judgement – after the “second coming” – this is the place and time when death is finally destroyed. Heiser says Paul’s statement in I Cor. 15:54 conceptuallylinks to an event after the “second coming”. He also asks how literal do we interpret words like “air” and “clouds” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 .
You might enjoy the video simply as an ex-TWI-follower (recalling wierwille’s 4 crucified mishmash of Scripture) - for taking another look at how to interpret a wide range of NT Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ – they do not all agree in every detail. Heiser asks “Are you a splitter or a joiner?” There is no cosmic law saying you must interpret a passage as a splitter of topics or a joiner of topics. In other words, do these 2 separate passages refer to 2 different things or to the same thing?
…I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff since I’ve gotten into a lot of Heiser’s work – so I’m not going to butcher the gist of everything – but this video and another text series Eschatology Series - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com) it appears Heiser does not believe in a rapture – and from what I gather he’s more of a “joiner” on Scripture about the 2nd coming of Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some sad news about Michael S. Heiser – he passed away in February 2023. May he rest in peace.
I thought Mounce’s reference to Colossians 2:2 NIV was in reference to the Mystery of Christ.
The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”Daniel 2:47
I think dispensationalist theology may inadvertently fragment the Mystery of Christ. Some commentaries explain that the Ephesians 3 Mystery of Christ was not as obviousbefore Pentecost:
4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
“What these prophets did not make clear was the connection with the coming of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Spirit the old theocracy would be completely abolished and in its place would arise a new organism in which the Gentiles and the Jews would be placed on a footing of perfect equality”…from Exposition of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon by William Hendriksen page 154.
If you look up the NT scholar William Hendriksen you might read about his influential work Israel and Prophecy, written a year after the 1967 war, and still in print, Hendriksen criticized the view, held by dispensationalists and Christian Zionists, that the Bible prophesies the return and restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel. Dispensationalist pastor Barry Horner describes Hendriksen's work as "a classic representation of replacement theology". Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight on dispensations, no dispensations, Pez Dispensers. I imagine God looks at groups, sects, religions and such a lot differently than we do anyway – and I’m becoming more of an inclusive kind of guy than exclusive.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s an approximately 34 minute You Tube video by Dr. Michael Heiser that addresses a few details mentioned on this thread video is here> Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Michael S. Heiser- Heiser points out a problem with 1 Corinthians 15 NIVandRevelation 20 NIV . Heiser asks of 1 Corinthians 15:54 is this the final victory over death. If you say “yes” then what about Revelation 20:14this is the final judgement – after the “second coming” – this is the place and time when death is finally destroyed. Heiser says Paul’s statement in I Cor. 15:54 conceptuallylinks to an event after the “second coming”. He also asks how literal do we interpret words like “air” and “clouds” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 .
You might enjoy the video simply as an ex-TWI-follower (recalling wierwille’s 4 crucified mishmash of Scripture) - for taking another look at how to interpret a wide range of NT Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ – they do not all agree in every detail. Heiser asks “Are you a splitter or a joiner?” There is no cosmic law saying you must interpret a passage as a splitter of topics or a joiner of topics. In other words, do these 2 separate passages refer to 2 different things or to the same thing?
…I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff since I’ve gotten into a lot of Heiser’s work – so I’m not going to butcher the gist of everything – but this video and another text series Eschatology Series - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com) it appears Heiser does not believe in a rapture – and from what I gather he’s more of a “joiner” on Scripture about the 2nd coming of Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some sad news about Michael S. Heiser – he passed away in February 2023. May he rest in peace.
Mark... have you learned anything over the past decades?
FEAR is what you are promoting with all your guesswork.
If it's not the goodness of
God that is promoted then I don't have much time for it.
I'm here to tell you that there is life after death, immediately after death.
Because of your religious beliefs, you want to ignore what other people have learned from the bible. When you say FEAR is what you are promoting. NO, I do NOT believe in the ERRANT religious theology of eternal torment for people in their earthly lives who did not see Jesus Christ as their Lord. The EXACT OPPOSITE is true. I have NEVER promoted this false religious theology and I have been working to teach people that God is a God of love and not hateful. My goal is that Christians should see that Jesus Christ is the loving and NOT hateful savior of humanity. At least one of the Christian denominations believe in eternal torment. The Baptist church and I live next to a Berean Baptist church building that has a good size building and a parking lot. The following is a link to a web site about this.
“Perhaps man has a hundred senses, and when he dies only the five senses that we know perish with him, and the other ninety-five remain alive.”
--Anton Chekhov
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
Posted Images
T-Bone
Yeah, Cman a thought-provoking point!
Sorry I’m late to the party – I’ve been busy catching up on some reading projects…when I saw your post, some stuff I had already published on another thread - Human Nature and the Fall , came to mind…I hope you don’t mind my being boring by quoting myself…uhm…but actually most my ‘reiterated’ posts are excerpts and hyperlinks from legitimate resources with my occasional comments on relevancy to the topic of what is death.
What is death?
I decided to explore human nature - not only in Biblical theology – but also through other legitimate disciplines. Besides appreciating what the Bible says about the makeup of humankind we also need to seek a comprehensive understanding of that which can undermine what appears to be the original design and purpose of humankind – especially by two of the biggest threats – sin and death.
15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. 16 Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 15-17 NET
Notes on verse 17 in my Net Bible: Second Beta Edition read:
Heb. “dying you will die.” The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, “when you eat…you will die.” That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute.
The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (dying spiritually, you will then die physically). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined. Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God. Both occur with sin, although the physical alienation is more gradual than instant, and the spiritual is immediate, although the effects of it continue the separation.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Below are a few hyperlinks – food for thought on death:
Wikipedia: death
Plato Stanford Edu: death
Thomas Aquinas Edu: Philosophy is a Preparation for Death: Why We Study the Phaedo
Philosopher’s Mag com: Death and Its Concept
Rethink Now org: what does the Bible say about death?
Bible Study Tools: 10 Important Things the Bible Says about Death
Chaim Ben Torah: Hebrew word study of death
Bible Hub: Hebrew "maveth" Strong’s # 4194
Chabad Org: Jewish meaning of death
Truth Watchers: does death mean separation?
Bible Study Tools dictionary: death
My Jewish Learning: defining death on Jewish Law
Teaching the Word org: What Is the Biblical Definition of Death?
Edited October 25, 2022 by T-Bone
all typos must die !
From: Human nature + the Fall 10/25/2022 10:01 PM by T-Bone
~ ~ ~ ~
The following is a summary of some stuff about death that I read in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Kindle Edition - location 45009ff – sorry no page numbers this is Kindle version …anyway, here’s some stuff I thought was noteworthy:
Because death did not immediately befall Adam and Eve on the day of transgression, but took hundreds of years later the expression “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (as it so reads in Gen. 2:17 KJV ) must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy Gen. 3:15 .
However, the Bible Encyclopedia states Gen. 2:17 may be showing a close connection of violating God’s commandment and the resultant consequences thereby attaching to death a religious and ethical significance and makes the lives of humankind dependent on obedience to God. The religious-ethical nature of life and death is not only decidedly and clearly expressed in the early chapters of Genesis, but we find it is the fundamental thought in the entire Bible and forms an essential element in many of the declarations of salvation.
The Encyclopedia goes on to say some theologians past and present have denied the spiritual significance of death and have separated the connection between ethical and physical life, usually base their opinions on passages that show death as a punishment for sin Rom. 5:12 Romans 6:23 I Cor. 15:21 …this opinion has some merit though – since we are made aware of the consequences of the weaknesses and frailty of human nature Job 14:1 Eccl. 3:20 …For the most part death is portrayed as something natural.
What is the meaning of death?
The Encyclopedia states that we are influenced by the Greek Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal – but such an idea is utterly foreign to the ancient Hebrew concept of death – and is not found in the OT. The whole person dies, when in death the spirit Eccl. 12:7 or soul I Ki. 17:21 goes out of them. Death is not understood to be annihilation – as in complete extermination…utter destruction…obliterated, but rather deriving one of all that makes for life on earth. To the Israelites death meant separation from all that they loved – separation from God, and from His service, His law, His people, His land. The physical contrast between life and death gradually makes way for the moral and spiritual difference between life spent in the fear of the Lord, and a life in the service of sin.
Edited October 28, 2022 by T-Bone
rebellious editor says: Typos thou art and unto typos thou shalt return
Human nature + the fall 10/28/2022 11:21 AM by T-Bone
~ ~ ~ ~
Considering your question, “are the dead alive now?” check out Revelation 9:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 6:9-11 NIV
There’s quite a number of things to unpack in these verses – and I don’t pretend to be qualified to do that – but I will say the two of the most fascinating issues to wrestle with here are the rich symbolism and biblical terminology ("soul" & "spirit")…
…To briefly digress back to my Human Nature thread, I did a study of soul and spirit and found the biblical writers used the two words interchangeably – see my posts here , here , and here …
The other thing - the imagery or symbolism of “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained” if not to be taken literally can express or represent deeper meanings or themes that are immaterial, ideal, or intangible. Symbolism can vary depending on the context, culture, or personal perspective of the user or viewer of the symbols.
Both the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible page 2234 and the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible page 2289 say similar things about Rev. 6:9-11 : this was a common Biblical plea for God’s swift intervention (e.g. Ps. 6:3; 35:17; 79:5; 80:4; Hab. 1:2; Zec. 1:12) and in Jewish apocalyptic traditions, the righteous continued crying for vindication until the judgement; in one source- possibly later than the book of Revelation – the righteous ask, “How long?” and an archangel responds, “Until your number is complete”, 4 Ezra 4:33-37. The OT sacrificial imagery recalls the altar of incense or the altar of burnt offering (Lev. 4:7) – referring to Christian martyrs Revelation 5:9 , Revelation 18:24 , and Revelation 20:4
~ ~ ~ ~
Let me be clear on Revelation 6 – to me it’s unclear
on how to interpret Rev. 6 in light of your question. I’m thinking any otherworldly narratives in the Bible are not there to portray with scientific precision the metaphysical realm – so I wouldn’t use Rev. 6 as proof the dead are alive now. To me it’s the deeper meaning that it gives to Christians who make the ultimate sacrifice…
…and for what it’s worth – my opinion on the topic is that the dead are alive now – how, in what form, and what relevancy it has to the living - I don’t know.
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cman
How? I don't know either except that what I am will continue after I die, and in what form, I don't know. Good work on Revelations there, a lot to think about.
If the work of Jesus Christ was complete, then why wouldn't the dead live on. The work is completed, there is no need for him to come again as separated from us to reconcile, it's already done. Any reconciliation would be on an individual basis as is all the work of God coming from the inside of his greatest work.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I do not recommend believing the first deception spoken to humanity by the serpent or the devil. In quoting from the book, "Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ", near the beginning of the chapter, "When Will the Dead Be Made Alive Through Jesus Christ?"
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cman
Cherry picking some things to be symbolic, and other things are not? Genesis is a lot more informative then at first glance. Thinking of Adam being the masculine and Eve being the feminine would fit with symbolism.
Anyway, death has been defeated. I'm not really sure what your point is, Mark.
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OldSkool
If the dead are alive then why do we need a gathering together and two ressurrections? Are we ressurecting living people?
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T-Bone
Good question. I don’t know.
Some of the things I speculate about on this goes back to the ancient biblical concepts of death I shared about in a previous post – like physical death being a separation of the body from the life-animating spirit or soul - whatever that is. Thus, technically death is not annihilation or a cessation of existence.
In Genesis humankind is created out of several “components” for lack of a better term. How one breaks that down is a matter of opinion. The trichotomy view – humankind was originally composed of body, soul and spirit – which is held by some groups like TWI. The dichotomy view – humankind are composed of body and soul / spirit – see the hyperlinks in my previous post from the Human Nature thread. Personally, I lean toward the dichotomy view – which simply distinguishes between the material and immaterial “parts” of humankind:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them…Genesis 1 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being…Genesis 2 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
I think things can get silly when we interpret the Bible like a scientific textbook. To me, what the above passages suggest is that there’s two sides to our existence – natural and supernatural. Also, it seems to me the soul / spirit components were meant to be “housed” in something physical…In light of that, when I read I Corinthians 15, it does seem to suggest a few things depending on the current physical status. If one has been dead – the physical elements of their body must be reconstituted. What if they’ve been dead for eons – disintegrated into the surroundings? I don’t know how God is going to pull all this off.
Just all speculation here on my part. One possibility could be something gee-whiz-hi-tech like in the film The Iron Giant (1999) . One of our favorite movies – near the end of the story this huge robot from another world saves a small town from a nuclear missile but it is blown to smithereens in the process. Robot parts are scattered all over the globe. The story closes with scenes of Robot parts responding to a homing signal from the head and they go flopping, bouncing, crawling in the direction of the head…
Similar to the tech that Tony Stark invented - injecting neural transmitters into his arm in the beginning of Iron Man 3 (2013), which enables him to summon the various parts of his suit of armor…
jumping to other thoughts – in superstring theory one of the suppositions that theoretical physicists posit is that down at the smallest level of “stuff” we’ll find unique loops – or strings. And that each string has a unique frequency. This identifies and sets the properties of the string. In Beyond the Cosmos: The Transdimensionality of God by Hugh Ross astrophysicist Ross speculates among other things how Jesus Christ could walk through walls in his new body by altering the properties of his body…of course this is all speculation…now think about this:
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven…Luke 10:20
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books…Revelation 20:12
Think of all the stuff that has been written, recorded and documented in our world. Is it too hard to imagine there’s some divine beings – angels - who are in charge of keeping records – logging the unique frequencies of each created being…now go to I Corinthians 15 – maybe it’s talking about the reassembling of the stuff our bodies are made of – note it speaks of being clothed – I have another idea to think about after you read the following:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”… 1 Corinthians 15 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Now remember these passages from my previous post:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been…Revelation 6:9-11 NIV
I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.
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cman
Like the wheat and the tares, just and unjust are assumed to be two groups of people at the same time.
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OldSkool
Interesting. Well, I've been reading the Book of Enoch which was removed from the canon and it shouldn't have been. It's quoted copiously through the new testament. It gives detail on the the subject but I'm not to that part quit yet....more later...good thoughts though...have my attention 4 sure.
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Nathan_Jr
Don't mean to derail, but I just can't help myself. All apologies.
The Enoch scrolls fell out of the bookcase when Timothy hit a bump on the road to meet up with Paul. That's why it didn't make it into most canons. Timothy lost it and Paul corrected him with great spiritual anger. (Don't ask how I know this. Just know I eat cookies.)
Fortunately, some Ethiopians that were traveling behind Timothy picked up what he dropped. That's how it made it into the Ethiopian Orthodox canon.
Enoch was also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Fascinating topic, Enoch.
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OldSkool
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chockfull
The Revelation chapter 6 stuff is interesting. With respect to the timing of all that I think that period of time is post gathering together.
The end times timing throughout there describes tribulations befalling the end times believers and the periods involved.
Also there seems to be a preparation period for the final battle then the battle itself.
The third heaven and earth would be post apocalyptic.
Its not readily apparent to me what the seals represent but they could have a temporal aspect meaning a period of time or series of events that occur to open the seal.
The white robe also seems to be obscured at the moment - perhaps it would take the opening of the 5th seal for the meaning to become fully known…
Some thoughts.
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OldSkool
Then we come across Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Is this the last trump? If so it presents all kinds of problems to dispensationalism and our understanding of God's timing and the entire book of Revelation for that matter.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Christians often have more deception today than they did with the original creation of humanity. Sometimes Christian organizations or denominations do NOT believe in death, but instead teach that most people go to hell with eternal torment and only some people go to heaven to be with God. This relates to the mythology or myths of hell. I wonder if the priority for people going to heaven after they breath their last physical breath is being part of their denomination??? Instead, the bible teaches that there will be two resurrections of the dead, as taught in the book of Revelation, chapter 20. The first resurrection is to be with Christ while being part of the 1000 year period. Then the second Resurrection of judgement. People that did not commit crimes in their lives will be judged more favorably than people who committed crimes and perhaps were never even charged for their crime.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead (nekros), small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (hades or the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell (hades or the grave) were cast into the lake of fire (puros). This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (puros). (KJV)
The final chapters of the book of Revelation gives some thoughts or perhaps even detail about the new heaven and earth and the book of life for humanity.
In addition, a Christian Ministry a few miles north of Dallas, Texas that has a web site which they teach from has the following teaching about this subject.
Do We Go to Heaven When We Die?
by Andy Burnett and Erik Jones
What actually happens when we die? Do Christians go to heaven after death? Or maybe—the other place? What the Bible says happens after death may surprise you.
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/life/life-after-death/what-is-heaven/go-to-heaven/
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T-Bone
Hey OldSkool,
just wanted to share some pertinent information to your posts…I thought you might get a kick out of the NICNT by Mounce mentioning the book of Enoch…The book of Revelation is one of my 7 favorite books of the Bible – I’ve got a pretty good selection of commentaries by various scholars with differing viewpoints – but I don’t want to give the impression to anyone I’m an expert on Revelation…rather I key off a question or point someone makes on Grease Spot – probably triggers something I’ve read and reread many times before...That's one of the things I like about Grease Spot Cafe - the give and take of it all...I like how the input of others helps me to focus and organize and reorganize all this stuff that I read. Maybe someday it will all make sense to me!
…I think these excerpts might help sort out a couple of things…maybe not
…anyway…I quote Revelation 10: 5 – 7 first, because the commentaries draw some on the buildup to 7 …so here goes:
5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”… Revelation 10 NIV
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On page 206ff of The Book of Revelation (The NICNT) by Robert Mounce it says this of Rev.10:7:
The proclamation of the mighty angel is that there shall be no further delay, but with the sounding of the seventh trumpet the hidden purpose of God will be accomplished. The NKJ translation, “when he is about to sound,” could be taken to mean the mystery of God will be completed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet. What the angel is saying, however, is that within that period of time to be introduced by the seventh trumpet blast the mystery of God will be brought to completion.
A great deal of attention has been given to the meaning of “the mystery of God.” In Col. 2:2 the exact phrase is used to refer to Christ, in whom are hidden the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist ( 1 Enoch 71:3ff.; also 40:2: 46:2).
An eschatological orientation is always present in the NT use of the word. In Rom. 11:25 the final destiny of Israel is a “mystery.” The “mystery” of 1 Cor. 15:55 is the change that will overtake the believer at Christ’s return. In 2 Thess.2:7 the “mystery of lawlessness” (RSV) that is at present restrained will soon be fully revealed and at the coming of Christ will be destroyed.
The mystery of God in Rev. 10:7 shares this apocalyptic coloring and refers to the purpose of God as revealed in the consummation of human history…
…The drama has now moved to that moment immediately preceding the final scene. From this point on, the Apocalypse becomes a multidimensional presentation of the final triumph of God over evil. Any attempt to arrange the material in a strictly sequential pattern is doomed to failure. From his vantage point on the brink of eternity John unveils the evil forces that operate behind the scenes of history and in the last days will mount a final and furious assault upon the faithful (12:12, 17).
End of excerpts
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And pages 313ff of New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Book of Revelation by Simon J. Kistemaker notes of Rev. 10:7
We would have expected the seventh angel to blow his trumpet to introduce the series of seven plagues. This is not the case here, because John is writing only a preliminary reference to this event and not the event itself, which will take place in 11:15. With this reference he tells the reader to wait until he has completed the writing of his interlude that describes the task of God’s people on earth.
In other words, the blowing of the seventh trumpet will not occur immediately during or after John’s lifetime. When the trumpet sounds, the days of the end have arrived and are made visible by several visions. The trumpet blast announces the message that the end is at hand and the consummation of this age is near. And when this trumpet is heard, the second woe belongs to the past (11:14). The third woe encompasses the judgment (11:15b – 19)…
…The events take place in the future, at the time when the mystery of God will be accomplished. Interestingly, whereas in the translation the future tense of the verb to accomplish is used, the Greek text shows the past tense. In Greek the past tense has a futuristic connotation that should be understood not from the author’s point of view but from God’s eventual fulfillment. When the delay has run its course (v.6), the trumpet of the seventh angel will sound and God will cause his mysterious plan to become a reality. When this trumpet sounds, the time has come for God and his Christ to rule the kingdom of the world and to judge the dead (11:15 – 18). The cry of the souls under the altar asking for judgement will be fulfilled on the Judgement Day (6:10; 20: 11 – 15), and the blowing of the seventh trumpet is a sign of that day.
End of excerpts
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cman
Mark... have you learned anything over the past decades?
FEAR is what you are promoting with all your guesswork.
If it's not the goodness of
God that is promoted then I don't have much time for it.
I'm here to tell you that there is life after death, immediately after death.
The Revelations of Jesus Christ is the Revelations of Jesus Christ, not some fictional end of the world scenario.
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T-Bone
Hey Mark,
Cool post – thanks for the hyperlink do we go to heaven after we die…I read it and intend to reread it a few more times.
When wierwille taught on body, soul, and spirit in PFAL and in ADAN, I never felt like he adequately addressed what happens to the soul and spirit (keeping with his trichotomy view). The matter of consciousness is a deep deep subject even now – let alone in ancient times. I get the euphemism of sleep…wonder if it's anything like being put under anesthesia for surgery. That's a weird experience! I come out of it after a surgery - and there's no memory of feelings during the surgery - nor any weird dreams...One time I joked with the doctor afterwards "come on, this is all a scam - you didn't do anything, right -you can be honest with me."
...not going anywhere in this post – just some random thoughts…if death is separation of body and life-animating soul/spirit. Where does the soul/spirit go?
And how much of our personality is in our body/soul/spirit? The body has the sensory inputs - locomotion capabilities ...we must need a body - so - what's it like being bodiless? what can I do?
So, all the dead souls are just floating around somewhere right now? Are there other angels (besides the ones that keep good records of each person/personhood) that will coordinate with the record keepers to reunite reconstituted body/soul/spirit? what about all that superstring theory stuff and the extra dimensions? I've seen estimates of 10 up to 26 dimensions total. Does the soul/spirit have existence outside of our 3 known dimensions + time? In other words, in the other dimensions? when everything is said and done at the end of the book of Revelation are all the dimensions unraveled? united? connected - or rather re-connected?
Edited by T-Bonetypos + added thoughts
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waysider
freeze dried and vacuum packed.
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OldSkool
I disagree with the commentaries in that they do not cite the mystery of God.
Ephesians 3:3-6
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
There are many mysteries in scripture but only one "the mystery of God". Then there are mysteries within mysteries...
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So, to me it's problematic for dispensationalist theology when Revelation is supposed to be to another administration (it clearly is not) and in Revelation 10:7 we have a last trump about to sound that concludes the mystery of God. Am I decisive on anything yet....no....I appreciate you taking the time to post the commentaries, thanlks. Ive been looking at Rev 10:7 for at least three years now and havent found a commentary yet that handles the mystery that is revealed in the Church epistles.
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chockfull
Yes this all makes me wonder if the whole mystery concept is a consolidation of all of these different time periods with their rules into one standard overall that applies to all no matter the time origin or ethnic origin.
Jews and Gentiles merging into one. Pre and post tribulation Christians merging into one.
And then eventually all just one world and new heaven and earth that is not as complicated as this one.
Yes most commentaries are not focused on “The Great Mystery” like we were in Plaffy.
I guess to me it isn’t as much hype as VP jumped around about. It’s like eventually the justice system will be fair, expedient and functional. Cool.
Maybe I’m under reacting.
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OldSkool
That is in part what the mystery is all about. That man made after the first Adam would be redeemed and made a-new after the last Adam Jesus Christ. So, yes, all will be summed as one new man under the same just laws of God almighty.
Wierwille tried to make it all about Christ in you and that power was to be tapped like a spiritual keg to bring abundance. Lies.
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T-Bone
I thought Mounce’s reference to Colossians 2:2 NIV was in reference to the Mystery of Christ.
The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.” Daniel 2:47
I think dispensationalist theology may inadvertently fragment the Mystery of Christ. Some commentaries explain that the Ephesians 3 Mystery of Christ was not as obvious before Pentecost:
4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
The OT writers, in fact, did know about it and referred to it again and again like in Genesis 22:18 , Psalm 72 , Isaiah 11:10 , Hosea 1:10 , and Malachi 1:11 to cite just a few.
“What these prophets did not make clear was the connection with the coming of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Spirit the old theocracy would be completely abolished and in its place would arise a new organism in which the Gentiles and the Jews would be placed on a footing of perfect equality”…from Exposition of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon by William Hendriksen page 154.
If you look up the NT scholar William Hendriksen you might read about his influential work Israel and Prophecy, written a year after the 1967 war, and still in print, Hendriksen criticized the view, held by dispensationalists and Christian Zionists, that the Bible prophesies the return and restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel. Dispensationalist pastor Barry Horner describes Hendriksen's work as "a classic representation of replacement theology". Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight on dispensations, no dispensations, Pez Dispensers. I imagine God looks at groups, sects, religions and such a lot differently than we do anyway – and I’m becoming more of an inclusive kind of guy than exclusive.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s an approximately 34 minute You Tube video by Dr. Michael Heiser that addresses a few details mentioned on this thread video is here > Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Michael S. Heiser - Heiser points out a problem with 1 Corinthians 15 NIV and Revelation 20 NIV . Heiser asks of 1 Corinthians 15:54 is this the final victory over death. If you say “yes” then what about Revelation 20:14 this is the final judgement – after the “second coming” – this is the place and time when death is finally destroyed. Heiser says Paul’s statement in I Cor. 15:54 conceptually links to an event after the “second coming”. He also asks how literal do we interpret words like “air” and “clouds” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 .
You might enjoy the video simply as an ex-TWI-follower (recalling wierwille’s 4 crucified mishmash of Scripture) - for taking another look at how to interpret a wide range of NT Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ – they do not all agree in every detail. Heiser asks “Are you a splitter or a joiner?” There is no cosmic law saying you must interpret a passage as a splitter of topics or a joiner of topics. In other words, do these 2 separate passages refer to 2 different things or to the same thing?
…I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff since I’ve gotten into a lot of Heiser’s work – so I’m not going to butcher the gist of everything – but this video and another text series Eschatology Series - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com) it appears Heiser does not believe in a rapture – and from what I gather he’s more of a “joiner” on Scripture about the 2nd coming of Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some sad news about Michael S. Heiser – he passed away in February 2023. May he rest in peace.
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OldSkool
Thanks, I'll check it out!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Because of your religious beliefs, you want to ignore what other people have learned from the bible. When you say FEAR is what you are promoting. NO, I do NOT believe in the ERRANT religious theology of eternal torment for people in their earthly lives who did not see Jesus Christ as their Lord. The EXACT OPPOSITE is true. I have NEVER promoted this false religious theology and I have been working to teach people that God is a God of love and not hateful. My goal is that Christians should see that Jesus Christ is the loving and NOT hateful savior of humanity. At least one of the Christian denominations believe in eternal torment. The Baptist church and I live next to a Berean Baptist church building that has a good size building and a parking lot. The following is a link to a web site about this.
https://faith.edu/faith-news/evangelicals-and-the-doctrine-of-eternal-punishment/
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Nathan_Jr
“Perhaps man has a hundred senses, and when he dies only the five senses that we know perish with him, and the other ninety-five remain alive.”
--Anton Chekhov
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