There have been examples of “accidental” plagiarism. Authors forget to cite their sources, or don’t recall that something they wrote was not original. I once started writing a novel, and later recognized several clever paragraphs as having originated in an Indiana Jones movie. It was inadvertent, and therefore, not plagiarism. Dumb, but not plagiarism.
Upon further reflection:
yeah, that IS plagiarism. Not deliberate, but still plagiarism.
Thanks, WW, for reposting this. Thanks, Raf, for your honest reflection.
I finally and forever stopped going to fellowship because of this very issue of integrity and that it does, indeed, matter.
I read somewhere in this forum about an obscure, out of print E.W. Bullinger book called The Giver And His Gifts (It was also published with an alternate title, I think?) A few weeks later at fellowship, the commander and his wife, both Corps, held forth for an embarrassingly long time about the great sacrifices victor paul wierwille made to "research the word." Victor worked 18 hours a day for years to find every use of "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, they said. No one else ever had or ever would do this, they said. We should be so humbly grateful to victor, they said. He did all the work so we wouldn't have to, they said. Isn't that wonderful, they said.
The accurate truth, I discovered, was victor copied the The Giver And His Gifts for all the uses of "Holy Spirit" for the appendix of RTHST. Why hide this? What's wrong with saying victor found this book from Bullinger and copied it so we wouldn't have to? Why make such a deliberate, painstaking effort to gushingly misattribute credit to victor for this? Why hide? Why deceive?
That was it for me. I had endured the bullshonta to keep the peace, but the deliberate deception I couldn't abide. If it wasn't deliberate deception on the fellowship commander's part (doubtful), then it was willful ignorance on his part, which is self deception -- I couldn't abide that, either.
A week later, the FC texted me for something unrelated. I replied with, "Are you familiar with The Giver and His Gifts by EW Bullinger?"
FC: Yes
NATE: Is that the source for RTHSPT?
FC: Somewhat
NATE: I mean the appendix.
FC: Dr. put together various writings. Bullinger was a biggie. But not EVERTHING Bullinger wrote was accurate.
NATE: I get it. Bullinger did the research, the work. But it seems Bullinger was a trinitarian. Everything was accurate, except that, I guess.
FC: I am concerned with rightly dividing the Word of truth. When we do, we get rewarded.
Deflect, distract, derail, deny. Red herrings are dirty birds. That's where the conversation ended. I was done with the deception, but he wasn't.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Gloves and movies as evidence.
Would wierwille have had such a big cult following if he would have given the proper attribution? I don’t think so. So, it gets me wondering why he did not – all I can think of is that it was intentional – to set himself up as some great man of god.
It’s remarkable how easily I fell for wierwille’s con. Reading Nathan’s account of the 2 corps is just another rendition of how to perpetuate a cult-leader. wierwille demanded admiration – but it was incognito -I thought it was in deference to the Word of God and the office of a prophet, teacher, pastor, etc.
Thanks, WW, for reposting this. Thanks, Raf, for your honest reflection.
The last fellowship I attended was because of this very issue of integrity and that it does, indeed, matter.
I read somewhere in this forum about an obscure, out of print E.W. Bullinger book called The Giver And His Gifts (It was also published with an alternate title, I think?) A few weeks later at fellowship, the commander and his wife, both Corps, held forth for an embarrassingly long time about the great sacrifices victor paul wierwille made to "research the word." Victor worked 18 hours a day for years to find every use of "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, they said. No one else ever had or ever would do this, they said. We should be so humbly grateful to victor, they said. He did all the work so we wouldn't have to, they said. Isn't that wonderful, they said.
The accurate truth, I discovered, was victor copied the The Giver And His Gifts for all the uses of "Holy Spirit" for the appendix of RTHST. Why hide this? What's wrong with saying victor found this book from Bullinger and copied it so we wouldn't have to? Why make such a deliberate, painstaking effort to gushingly misattribute credit victor for this? Why hide? Why deceive?
That was it for me. I had endured the bullshonta to keep the peace, but the deliberate deception I couldn't abide. If it wasn't deliberate deception on the fellowship commander's part (doubtful), then it was willful ignorance on his part, which is self deception -- I couldn't abide that, either.
A week later, the FC texted me for something unrelated. I replied with, "Are you familiar with The Giver and His Gifts by EW Bullinger?"
FC: Yes
NATE: Is that the source for RTHSPT?
FC: Somewhat
NATE: I mean the appendix.
FC: Dr. put together various writings. Bullinger was a biggie. But not EVERTHING Bullinger wrote was accurate.
NATE: I get it. Bullinger did the research, the work. But it seems Bullinger was a trinitarian. Everything was accurate, except that, I guess.
FC: I am concerned with rightly dividing the Word of truth. When we do, we get rewarded.
Deflect, distract, derail, deny. Red herrings are dirty birds. That's where the conversation ended. I was done with the deception, but he wasn't.
So being concerned with rightly dividing the word of truth lets rightly divide the 10 commandments where it says “thou shalt not steal”.
In VP logic that means you can’t steal because all truth belongs to God.
Just like you can’t commit adultery because all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.
To/For questions in the Bible do not impact integrity on the issues like chockfull addressed.
No doubt. No shonta. To/for is a bullshonta cop out, IMO. Chockfull is right on. I agree with him.
@chockfullSorry, Chockfull, if you didn't get it. My comment was pure sarcastic snark. It wasn't aimed AT you. It was aimed WITH you - aligned WITH your sarcastic critiques of the fraudsters.
Yeah I got it but with the dispensations there is not a negating of the 10 commandments but a fulfillment from the heart thru Christ.
Christ taught “love your neighbor as yourself” as a fulfillment of the law.
Without explicitly stating it this would cover stealing from your neighbor and committing adultery with the neighbors spouse as not being according to Christs law.
And finally in the “grace administration” the one with the continuous succession of arseholes - there the Word is written in the hearts. So straight from your heart and conscience comes the truth of doing your own work and not stealing your neighbors and having the conscience not to schtoop the secretary - I mean commit adultery with neighbors wife.
There you have a response with the appropriate levels of obtuseness and sarcasm.
Yeah I got it but with the dispensations there is not a negating of the 10 commandments but a fulfillment from the heart thru Christ.
Christ taught “love your neighbor as yourself” as a fulfillment of the law.
Without explicitly stating it this would cover stealing from your neighbor and committing adultery with the neighbors spouse as not being according to Christs law.
And finally in the “grace administration” the one with the continuous succession of arseholes - there the Word is written in the hearts. So straight from your heart and conscience comes the truth of doing your own work and not stealing your neighbors and having the conscience not to schtoop the secretary - I mean commit adultery with neighbors wife.
There you have a response with the appropriate levels of obtuseness and sarcasm.
Well said. We still agree 100%.
I was “taught” that the Ten Commandments were rubbish laws for stupid Jews. I never bought that logic.
And if there should be any doubt for a hyper dispensationalist, one who exalts Paul above Christ, didn’t even Paul quote a few of the Ten Commandments in one of the later chapters of Romans?
Recommended Posts
Raf
Upon further reflection:
yeah, that IS plagiarism. Not deliberate, but still plagiarism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Thanks, WW, for reposting this. Thanks, Raf, for your honest reflection.
I finally and forever stopped going to fellowship because of this very issue of integrity and that it does, indeed, matter.
I read somewhere in this forum about an obscure, out of print E.W. Bullinger book called The Giver And His Gifts (It was also published with an alternate title, I think?) A few weeks later at fellowship, the commander and his wife, both Corps, held forth for an embarrassingly long time about the great sacrifices victor paul wierwille made to "research the word." Victor worked 18 hours a day for years to find every use of "Holy Spirit" in the Bible, they said. No one else ever had or ever would do this, they said. We should be so humbly grateful to victor, they said. He did all the work so we wouldn't have to, they said. Isn't that wonderful, they said.
The accurate truth, I discovered, was victor copied the The Giver And His Gifts for all the uses of "Holy Spirit" for the appendix of RTHST. Why hide this? What's wrong with saying victor found this book from Bullinger and copied it so we wouldn't have to? Why make such a deliberate, painstaking effort to gushingly misattribute credit to victor for this? Why hide? Why deceive?
That was it for me. I had endured the bullshonta to keep the peace, but the deliberate deception I couldn't abide. If it wasn't deliberate deception on the fellowship commander's part (doubtful), then it was willful ignorance on his part, which is self deception -- I couldn't abide that, either.
A week later, the FC texted me for something unrelated. I replied with, "Are you familiar with The Giver and His Gifts by EW Bullinger?"
FC: Yes
NATE: Is that the source for RTHSPT?
FC: Somewhat
NATE: I mean the appendix.
FC: Dr. put together various writings. Bullinger was a biggie. But not EVERTHING Bullinger wrote was accurate.
NATE: I get it. Bullinger did the research, the work. But it seems Bullinger was a trinitarian. Everything was accurate, except that, I guess.
FC: I am concerned with rightly dividing the Word of truth. When we do, we get rewarded.
Deflect, distract, derail, deny. Red herrings are dirty birds. That's where the conversation ended. I was done with the deception, but he wasn't.
Gloves and movies as evidence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Excellent article, Raf!
WordWolf, thanks for posting the link / article.
Would wierwille have had such a big cult following if he would have given the proper attribution? I don’t think so. So, it gets me wondering why he did not – all I can think of is that it was intentional – to set himself up as some great man of god.
It’s remarkable how easily I fell for wierwille’s con. Reading Nathan’s account of the 2 corps is just another rendition of how to perpetuate a cult-leader. wierwille demanded admiration – but it was incognito -I thought it was in deference to the Word of God and the office of a prophet, teacher, pastor, etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
So being concerned with rightly dividing the word of truth lets rightly divide the 10 commandments where it says “thou shalt not steal”.
In VP logic that means you can’t steal because all truth belongs to God.
Just like you can’t commit adultery because all the women in the kingdom belong to the king.
Flawless logic there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
To/For
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
To/For questions in the Bible do not impact integrity on the issues like chockfull addressed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
No doubt. No shonta. To/for is a bullshonta cop out, IMO. Chockfull is right on. I agree with him.
@chockfullSorry, Chockfull, if you didn't get it. My comment was pure sarcastic snark. It wasn't aimed AT you. It was aimed WITH you - aligned WITH your sarcastic critiques of the fraudsters.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yeah I got it but with the dispensations there is not a negating of the 10 commandments but a fulfillment from the heart thru Christ.
Christ taught “love your neighbor as yourself” as a fulfillment of the law.
Without explicitly stating it this would cover stealing from your neighbor and committing adultery with the neighbors spouse as not being according to Christs law.
And finally in the “grace administration” the one with the continuous succession of arseholes - there the Word is written in the hearts. So straight from your heart and conscience comes the truth of doing your own work and not stealing your neighbors and having the conscience not to schtoop the secretary - I mean commit adultery with neighbors wife.
There you have a response with the appropriate levels of obtuseness and sarcasm.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Well said. We still agree 100%.
I was “taught” that the Ten Commandments were rubbish laws for stupid Jews. I never bought that logic.
And if there should be any doubt for a hyper dispensationalist, one who exalts Paul above Christ, didn’t even Paul quote a few of the Ten Commandments in one of the later chapters of Romans?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Since someone asked,
EW Bullinger's "Giver and His Gifts" is a lot easier to find under the title "Word Studies on the Holy Spirit."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.