It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the article wouldn't be any the worse off.
And they can't resist sticking their own special interpretation on the Greek words they pull up: see -
"The first word that stands out to us is “run,” which is translated from the Greek wordtrechō. This word literally means to run,
but metaphorically it indicates exerting oneself, to strive hard, or to spend one’s strength in performing or attaining something."
Yes, that's as may be, but the whole thing is: "We know something a bit better than [someone else]."
Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture.
And so we too must explain, or use as a springboard, the imagery and terms that would most reach those with whom we want to share the Good News. Maybe we would talk in terms of athletics, or military, or gardening - or in terms of writing the best computer program (knowing what you/your customer wants, and how to achieve that efficiently), or how to make a perfect cake (follow the rules for success) or playing a musical instrument (needs diligence and practice, you may even need to learn a new language).
To over-focus on one metaphor is to minimise the topic and to cut down on outreach.
I remember Penworks talking about how they told wierwille the concept didnt fit the way wierwille said. That we are athletes of the spirit becuase Christ won the war and we have eternal life. That's the way I was taught it in various and sundry classes from TWI but to learn that vicster forced the concept is crazy.
This is a jolly sight more interesting than AoS. I like the third horse (I think it is - dancing sideways) and the two garlanded police horses midway through (looks like at Glastonbury Festival!).
I remember Penworks talking about how they told wierwille the concept didnt fit the way wierwille said. That we are athletes of the spirit becuase Christ won the war and we have eternal life. That's the way I was taught it in various and sundry classes from TWI but to learn that vicster forced the concept is crazy.
This was a long time ago, but in 1988 John Lynn visited San Diego with his little GreaseSpot Cafe traveling road show.
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. The slant was that VPW was thinking that LCM had gone too far with it, or that he was having second thoughts about it. But by late 1984 no one was listening to VPW as he was visibly slower, had one or two strokes, lost an eye, and no longer controlled the payrolls.
John Lynn, in 1988, made it sound like LCM had taken the ball and run farther than VPW was comfortable with. He made it sound like VPW was unhappy with the large scale production of AOS. I can't remember if anything about AOS appeared in the Passing of the Patriarch. It should be checked for this.
This was a long time ago, but in 1988 John Lynn visited San Diego with his little GreaseSpot Cafe traveling road show.
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. The slant was that VPW was thinking that LCM had gone too far with it, or that he was having second thoughts about it. But by late 1984 no one was listening to VPW as he was visibly slower, had one or two strokes, lost an eye, and no longer controlled the payrolls.
John Lynn, in 1988, made it sound like LCM had taken the ball and run farther than VPW was comfortable with. He made it sound like VPW was unhappy with the large scale production of AOS. I can't remember if anything about AOS appeared in the Passing of the Patriarch. It should be checked for this.
Well that sure didn't take long. All discussions lead back to Wierwille, The Magnificent.
This was a long time ago, but in 1988 John Lynn visited San Diego with his little GreaseSpot Cafe traveling road show.
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. The slant was that VPW was thinking that LCM had gone too far with it, or that he was having second thoughts about it. But by late 1984 no one was listening to VPW as he was visibly slower, had one or two strokes, lost an eye, and no longer controlled the payrolls.
John Lynn, in 1988, made it sound like LCM had taken the ball and run farther than VPW was comfortable with. He made it sound like VPW was unhappy with the large scale production of AOS. I can't remember if anything about AOS appeared in the Passing of the Patriarch. It should be checked for this.
So you think a large production largely featuring devil spirit costumes where the lead in tights is having an illicit affair with the head “seed of the serpent” who happens to be a hot chick to “loosen up in that category” as directly instructed by his “father in the Word” was too much?
It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the article wouldn't be any the worse off.
And they can't resist sticking their own special interpretation on the Greek words they pull up: see -
"The first word that stands out to us is “run,” which is translated from the Greek wordtrechō. This word literally means to run,
but metaphorically it indicates exerting oneself, to strive hard, or to spend one’s strength in performing or attaining something."
Yes, that's as may be, but the whole thing is: "We know something a bit better than [someone else]."
Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture.
And so we too must explain, or use as a springboard, the imagery and terms that would most reach those with whom we want to share the Good News. Maybe we would talk in terms of athletics, or military, or gardening - or in terms of writing the best computer program (knowing what you/your customer wants, and how to achieve that efficiently), or how to make a perfect cake (follow the rules for success) or playing a musical instrument (needs diligence and practice, you may even need to learn a new language).
To over-focus on one metaphor is to minimise the topic and to cut down on outreach.
And please don't remind me any more of AoS. Ugh!
Yes it’s been like two decades and I still see “men in tights” images when reading Olympic athlete type terms in scripture.
Due to that trauma I’m a little more focused on the agriculture references and imagery currently.
I do enter into 5k races locally occasionally. There is a Thanksgiving one I have run with my kids. How that usually goes is I see all sorts of people passing me - kids, dogs, old people in wheelchairs, guys on crutches, etc.
I run in a race but the one receiving the prize is usually a high school or college distance runner in a program.
I don’t have to chase a clump of dirt to plant something in.
So you think a large production largely featuring devil spirit costumes where the lead in tights is having an illicit affair with the head “seed of the serpent” who happens to be a hot chick to “loosen up in that category” as directly instructed by his “father in the Word” was too much?
The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.
The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.
As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.
The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.
This was a long time ago, but in 1988 John Lynn visited San Diego with his little GreaseSpot Cafe traveling road show.
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. The slant was that VPW was thinking that LCM had gone too far with it, or that he was having second thoughts about it. But by late 1984 no one was listening to VPW as he was visibly slower, had one or two strokes, lost an eye, and no longer controlled the payrolls.
John Lynn, in 1988, made it sound like LCM had taken the ball and run farther than VPW was comfortable with. He made it sound like VPW was unhappy with the large scale production of AOS. I can't remember if anything about AOS appeared in the Passing of the Patriarch. It should be checked for this.
Don't jump on Mike. I think this was one of his better posts. Short, to the point, just reporting what he heard John Lynn say.
The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.
The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.
As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.
The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.
Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!
Hey, you guys. It's YOU dragging this off topic and making it about another poster here. That other poster just made a comment, as everyone here is entitled to do, reflecting his understanding of a situation.
The actual topic here is the article noted above, and its imagery.
Or, if you do want to be off topic, do you like the dancing horses?
The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.
The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.
As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.
The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.
Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns.
“The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW
And yes you bury your head in the sand when sexual immorality is brought up as a topic.
Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!
Yesterday, I just finished the chapter where she finishes Summer School and about to enter the Corps. I am slowly getting to the heavier stuff.
From John Lynn's report, VPW was asking these questions very late in the game, and he did it at Emporia, where he had a little more freedom to speak to people. Maybe that slipped by Penworks due to the location?
Oh yeah sorry…I forget he moves at a different pace…I blew through Undertow - couldn’t put it down! Like binge watching The West Wing - I don’t watch the “previously on…” in between each episode.
Hey, you guys. It's YOU dragging this off topic and making it about another poster here. That other poster just made a comment, as everyone here is entitled to do, reflecting his understanding of a situation.
The actual topic here is the article noted above, and its imagery.
Thanks, Twinky. I can bow out now, having said my tiny piece.
Yesterday, I just finished the chapter where she finishes Summer School and about to enter the Corps. I am slowly getting to the heavier stuff.
From John Lynn's report, VPW was asking these questions very late in the game, and he did it at Emporia, where he had a little more freedom to speak to people. Maybe that slipped by Penworks due to the location?
Could also be near the end of his life he was running out of energy to keep up the man of god persona and all his delusional hopes were falling apart and secret sins had metastasized
Hey, you guys. It's YOU dragging this off topic and making it about another poster here. That other poster just made a comment, as everyone here is entitled to do, reflecting his understanding of a situation.
The actual topic here is the article noted above, and its imagery.
Or, if you do want to be off topic, do you like the dancing horses?
Dancing horses are cool lol.
There are terms in the NT that are athletic competition focused.
LCM ruined those for me for a long time. I’m still recovering lol. Sorry.
The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.
The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.
As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.
The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.
Yeah...I like science fiction too...star wars had an entire orchestra doing the music...
Hey, you guys. It's YOU dragging this off topic and making it about another poster here. That other poster just made a comment, as everyone here is entitled to do, reflecting his understanding of a situation.
The actual topic here is the article noted above, and its imagery.
Or, if you do want to be off topic, do you like the dancing horses?
5 hours ago, Twinky said:
It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the article wouldn't be any the worse off.
And they can't resist sticking their own special interpretation on the Greek words they pull up: see -
"The first word that stands out to us is “run,” which is translated from the Greek wordtrechō. This word literally means to run,
but metaphorically it indicates exerting oneself, to strive hard, or to spend one’s strength in performing or attaining something."
Yes, that's as may be, but the whole thing is: "We know something a bit better than [someone else]."
Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture.
And so we too must explain, or use as a springboard, the imagery and terms that would most reach those with whom we want to share the Good News. Maybe we would talk in terms of athletics, or military, or gardening - or in terms of writing the best computer program (knowing what you/your customer wants, and how to achieve that efficiently), or how to make a perfect cake (follow the rules for success) or playing a musical instrument (needs diligence and practice, you may even need to learn a new language).
To over-focus on one metaphor is to minimise the topic and to cut down on outreach.
And please don't remind me any more of AoS. Ugh!
Hi Twinky,
When OldSkool began this thread, he was referring to the article which used the phrase, "we are spiritual athletes" in the first and last sentences. Your reply was right on with the topic and interesting to read. Now I may be misreading the meaning of your last statement but I think it extended the topic to include the awful AoS production. (I found it interesting that this article did not cover the Ephesians 6 verses about the armour of God probably because it would have dragged the article on for too long or maybe the current twi wants everyone to simply forget vp's inaccurate interpretation of it. Who knows?)
Anyway, Mike shortly afterwards brought vp into the discussion and said something I'm not sure is true. He wrote:
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. (Not the production, but the metaphor itself - then Mike went on to talk about vp's concerns about the production.
So my question now is did anyone hear that this was the case - that vp was doubting his interpretation of the armour of God? If so, then I think it would be important that GSC readers get to read about it.
When OldSkool began this thread, he was referring to the article which used the phrase, "we are spiritual athletes" in the first and last sentences. Your reply was right on with the topic and interesting to read. Now I may be misreading the meaning of your last statement but I think it extended the topic to include the awful AoS production. (I found it interesting that this article did not cover the Ephesians 6 verses about the armour of God probably because it would have dragged the article on for too long or maybe the current twi wants everyone to simply forget vp's inaccurate interpretation of it. Who knows?)
Anyway, Mike shortly afterwards brought vp into the discussion and said something I'm not sure is true. He wrote:
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. (Not the production, but the metaphor itself - then Mike went on to talk about vp's concerns about the production.
So my question now is did anyone hear that this was the case - that vp was doubting his interpretation of the armour of God? If so, then I think it would be important that GSC readers get to read about it.
Charity that’s a great point.
My read on VP was more to do with him not being enough of the center of attention.
But I blew right by what you brought up. Yes a look at Ephesians 6 w/r to athletes verses warriors is absolutely necessary to me thank you. I will look into that.
Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture.
In 2 Tim 2:3-6, Paul uses 3 metaphors back to back – 1) a good soldier of Jesus Christ, 2) a man who strives is crowned only if he strives lawfully (athletic metaphor) and 3) a husbandman that laboureth.
What’s interesting is what he uses each metaphor to teach in the following verses.
1) When talking about the armour of God in Ephesians 6, Paul uses this metaphor to explain how we are to “stand against the wiles of the devil” and “having done all, to stand.”
2) When Paul uses the metaphor of running in a race, the article points out that the context is receiving rewards at the Bema.
· 1 Cor 9:24 - but one receiveth the prize and verse 25 - Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible
· Phil 2:16 - that I may rejoice in the day of Christ
· Phil 3:13,14 - I press toward the mark for the prize
3) Paul writes about “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”
Why Paul used these particular metaphors to teach these particular truths is something to consider.
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Twinky
It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the
chockfull
Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns. “The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW
OldSkool
You were quoting T-Bone and my post really isnt aimed at anyone Chock, just quoted you for convenience sake. As for me, I heard that baby and bathwater analogy so many times from various o
Twinky
It's actually not a bad article - but it's ruined by the pseudo-intellectualism of stuffing in assorted Greek words, which in context add absolutely nothing to the article. If they were removed, the article wouldn't be any the worse off.
And they can't resist sticking their own special interpretation on the Greek words they pull up: see -
"The first word that stands out to us is “run,” which is translated from the Greek word trechō. This word literally means to run,
but metaphorically it indicates exerting oneself, to strive hard, or to spend one’s strength in performing or attaining something."
Yes, that's as may be, but the whole thing is: "We know something a bit better than [someone else]."
Paul said, he was all things to all men. He could talk in athletic terms to those with an athletic bent, or where it suited the context and climate of the times. In other places, he talked of putting on armour - to talk, perhaps, to a different group of people. Agricultural and husbandry references abound throughout the Bible, and doubtless Paul used many to expound to those who most understood agriculture.
And so we too must explain, or use as a springboard, the imagery and terms that would most reach those with whom we want to share the Good News. Maybe we would talk in terms of athletics, or military, or gardening - or in terms of writing the best computer program (knowing what you/your customer wants, and how to achieve that efficiently), or how to make a perfect cake (follow the rules for success) or playing a musical instrument (needs diligence and practice, you may even need to learn a new language).
To over-focus on one metaphor is to minimise the topic and to cut down on outreach.
And please don't remind me any more of AoS. Ugh!
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OldSkool
My bad..
I remember Penworks talking about how they told wierwille the concept didnt fit the way wierwille said. That we are athletes of the spirit becuase Christ won the war and we have eternal life. That's the way I was taught it in various and sundry classes from TWI but to learn that vicster forced the concept is crazy.
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Twinky
This is a jolly sight more interesting than AoS. I like the third horse (I think it is - dancing sideways) and the two garlanded police horses midway through (looks like at Glastonbury Festival!).
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Mike
This was a long time ago, but in 1988 John Lynn visited San Diego with his little GreaseSpot Cafe traveling road show.
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. The slant was that VPW was thinking that LCM had gone too far with it, or that he was having second thoughts about it. But by late 1984 no one was listening to VPW as he was visibly slower, had one or two strokes, lost an eye, and no longer controlled the payrolls.
John Lynn, in 1988, made it sound like LCM had taken the ball and run farther than VPW was comfortable with. He made it sound like VPW was unhappy with the large scale production of AOS. I can't remember if anything about AOS appeared in the Passing of the Patriarch. It should be checked for this.
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waysider
Well that sure didn't take long. All discussions lead back to Wierwille, The Magnificent.
All hail the Mighty Wizard!
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chockfull
So you think a large production largely featuring devil spirit costumes where the lead in tights is having an illicit affair with the head “seed of the serpent” who happens to be a hot chick to “loosen up in that category” as directly instructed by his “father in the Word” was too much?
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chockfull
Yes it’s been like two decades and I still see “men in tights” images when reading Olympic athlete type terms in scripture.
Due to that trauma I’m a little more focused on the agriculture references and imagery currently.
I do enter into 5k races locally occasionally. There is a Thanksgiving one I have run with my kids. How that usually goes is I see all sorts of people passing me - kids, dogs, old people in wheelchairs, guys on crutches, etc.
I run in a race but the one receiving the prize is usually a high school or college distance runner in a program.
I don’t have to chase a clump of dirt to plant something in.
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Mike
The music in AOS was very good. I still listen to it once in a while. But I edited out the words.
The music was bright and cheery, but the scenery was dark and garish.
As for the actors, people in the sexual fast lane were always on the other side of the horizon for me. I am not the one to ask about that topic.
The ONLY thing I was reporting was that John Lynn was pretty clear in 1988 that VPW had second thoughts about the athletes thing being a genuine figure of speech in Ephesians.
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Twinky
Don't jump on Mike. I think this was one of his better posts. Short, to the point, just reporting what he heard John Lynn say.
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Twinky
For some reason, I thought AoS was good at the time. That ole Waybrain!
I had the video. Started to watch it some decades later. (Note: "started" - didn't finish it.)
It burned quite well in the woodburner.
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T-Bone
Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!
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Twinky
Hey, you guys. It's YOU dragging this off topic and making it about another poster here. That other poster just made a comment, as everyone here is entitled to do, reflecting his understanding of a situation.
The actual topic here is the article noted above, and its imagery.
Or, if you do want to be off topic, do you like the dancing horses?
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waysider
It's a long book, T-Bone. Cut him some slack.
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chockfull
Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns.
“The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW
And yes you bury your head in the sand when sexual immorality is brought up as a topic.
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Mike
Yesterday, I just finished the chapter where she finishes Summer School and about to enter the Corps. I am slowly getting to the heavier stuff.
From John Lynn's report, VPW was asking these questions very late in the game, and he did it at Emporia, where he had a little more freedom to speak to people. Maybe that slipped by Penworks due to the location?
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T-Bone
Oh yeah sorry…I forget he moves at a different pace…I blew through Undertow - couldn’t put it down! Like binge watching The West Wing - I don’t watch the “previously on…” in between each episode.
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Mike
Thanks, Twinky. I can bow out now, having said my tiny piece.
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T-Bone
Could also be near the end of his life he was running out of energy to keep up the man of god persona and all his delusional hopes were falling apart and secret sins had metastasized
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waysider
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Penworks fault because of ...uhhhm...location.
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chockfull
Dancing horses are cool lol.
There are terms in the NT that are athletic competition focused.
LCM ruined those for me for a long time. I’m still recovering lol. Sorry.
And I’m too old and slow to run so that I win.
The problem here is me o Lord lol.
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OldSkool
Yeah...I like science fiction too...star wars had an entire orchestra doing the music...
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Charity
Hi Twinky,
When OldSkool began this thread, he was referring to the article which used the phrase, "we are spiritual athletes" in the first and last sentences. Your reply was right on with the topic and interesting to read. Now I may be misreading the meaning of your last statement but I think it extended the topic to include the awful AoS production. (I found it interesting that this article did not cover the Ephesians 6 verses about the armour of God probably because it would have dragged the article on for too long or maybe the current twi wants everyone to simply forget vp's inaccurate interpretation of it. Who knows?)
Anyway, Mike shortly afterwards brought vp into the discussion and said something I'm not sure is true. He wrote:
At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. (Not the production, but the metaphor itself - then Mike went on to talk about vp's concerns about the production.
So my question now is did anyone hear that this was the case - that vp was doubting his interpretation of the armour of God? If so, then I think it would be important that GSC readers get to read about it.
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chockfull
Charity that’s a great point.
My read on VP was more to do with him not being enough of the center of attention.
But I blew right by what you brought up. Yes a look at Ephesians 6 w/r to athletes verses warriors is absolutely necessary to me thank you. I will look into that.
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Charity
In 2 Tim 2:3-6, Paul uses 3 metaphors back to back – 1) a good soldier of Jesus Christ, 2) a man who strives is crowned only if he strives lawfully (athletic metaphor) and 3) a husbandman that laboureth.
What’s interesting is what he uses each metaphor to teach in the following verses.
1) When talking about the armour of God in Ephesians 6, Paul uses this metaphor to explain how we are to “stand against the wiles of the devil” and “having done all, to stand.”
2) When Paul uses the metaphor of running in a race, the article points out that the context is receiving rewards at the Bema.
· 1 Cor 9:24 - but one receiveth the prize and verse 25 - Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible
· Phil 2:16 - that I may rejoice in the day of Christ
· Phil 3:13,14 - I press toward the mark for the prize
3) Paul writes about “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”
Why Paul used these particular metaphors to teach these particular truths is something to consider.
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