Does anyone have any information/sources/evidence/first hand accounts talking about wierwille's secret sex ring?
I am currently reading undertow but I am not one to be convinced from one perspective.
I recently left TW as someone who has been raised in it their whole life.. and the deprogramming is intense. I think having that information that the "profit" that founded the Way and was in my eyes close to faultless as a person can be, was not as Christ like as they played themselves to be will be a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs. Thank you!
P.S to the admins, I have tried to make an account multiple times with different emails and I am still not getting a verification email.. if someone could help me with that, that would be wonderful!
“a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs”
That is an apt description of the necessary process – and basically the same idea as the socratic method in a discussion where a lot of it is asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
Beliefs are important – that stuff helps us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. And our beliefs - along with experience, observations, and reason even attempt to predict the future: “If I play at the beach all day, I’ll probably get sunburned.”
I left during the aftermath of the 1986 TWI meltdown after 12 years of involvement and I imagined the “deconstructing all of my beliefs” as disassembling a huge brick wall one brick at a time and occasionally several bricks all at once – to analyze the validity and necessity of each brick.
Typically, we tend to base our beliefs on trusted sources. But what happens if you begin to suspect that the organization you’ve trusted for years has not been well grounded, accurate or truthful? I love detective /mystery / sci-fi books, movies, and TV shows. My slow exit of leaving TWI was like binge watching Lost, The X-Files, House of Cards, Big Love, Knives Out, Loga’s Run, The Matrix, Sherlock and the Wizard of Oz – especially the part when Toto pulls back the curtain to expose the wimpy wizard. The various perspectives from others is not what convinced me that wierwille et al was a con – it was simply a matter of trusting my own faculty of judgment – something that was trained out of me courtesy of a harmful and controlling cult – I did not trust my own thinking, instead I trusted wierwille who seemed to have it all figured out.
As a reference point, I acknowledged my viewpoint - a couple of core elements like a belief in a higher power and that the Bible was inspired by God. For all I knew that stuff could be nonsense too – but figuring out the big questions of life, reality and meaning was not the aim of deconstructing my TWI-mindset – even though I had considered wierwille-ideology as definitive answers to the big questions. Some 37 years later – I still believe in a higher power and the divine inspiration of the Bible – those bricks remain in place - and all the dubious bricks of wierwille-ideology have been removed. Not going to get into the scar tissue, therapies, and side projects of unpacking the intellectual and emotional baggage here and now – just want to let you know the journey ain’t over yet – but that’s life – and real life ain’t boring.
Check your am****er e-mail address. I approved your registration, so you don't need to do anything at this point other than log in with the password you chose.
If you have trouble with THAT, check back in here.
Extremist, in answer to your question, yes. He and his trustees had a "woman in every port" so to speak all over the country and certain gals in the corps. How do I know? I was in one of the early corps. I knew people. I had my women friends tell me about their escapades. I sometimes think I was the only woman who said no to him. Long story, search the threads, its all there.
Moderator’s note: with the server upgrade on June 5, 2023, we lost a few days worth of previous posts. I happened to have copied this one from Penworks. So I have pasted it back in here.
Like Sunesis, I was in one of the early Corps, too. The Second Corps. There are lots of threads here on Greasespot that contain accounts.
I am also the author of Undertow, and if you notice in the book, I reference two other books that readers have found helpful. The first one is Losing the Way by Kristen Skedgell which is her true story of VPW seducing using her (mentioned above in Waysider's post.) I happened to know her back then but did not know this dark side of her Way experience until after we both left The Way.
The other book is The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Inside The Way International by Karl Kahler. In Karl's book, you'll find at least one woman's first-hand account of her sexual experiences with VPW and she uses her real name. She was in the First Corps.
Since leaving The Way and publishing Undertow, I now know of many women who were sexually used by VPW, because they either told me themselves, or someone close to them told me. I cannot/will not divulge their names. I get messages through my website on a regular basis from women who've been sexually abused by other Way leaders, too. It's part of VPW's disgraceful legacy.
The first time I met VPW was at a state meeting and my immediate take on him was that he was a lecherous old man. He held my hand too long; he took me in with his eyes; and he kept a hand on my arm to the point where I was creeped out. I said something about his behavior to my husband who poo-poohed it. I've been hit on by all kinds and he was hitting on me.
I routinely saw corp grad guys getting into "relationships" with women to get them to take the class and say the ends justified the means.
We left in early 87, and yes I felt vindicated. We lined up with John Lynn since he was close by, but after all the drama in that group I stopped coming around in 05. Haven't missed it a bit.
I know a couple of people who are still in. I don't get it, but they don't push me about coming back.
"I think having that information that the "profit" that founded the Way and was in my eyes close to faultless as a person can be, was not as Christ like as they played themselves to be will be a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs. "
This is easy to find around here. What can I say, briefly? According to his own words, vpw chose between 3 professions, 1 of which was ministry, 1 was business, 1 was music. So, it wasn't a calling, but a vocation. Besides, the other 2 would have been more work.
vpw plagiarized his way through his early years as a minister, and in his first year, he REPEATEDLY considered giving up- in his own words! How would he have treated any twi'er who even CONSIDERED giving up twice in a year? When he set up the way corps, he did so with no experience in ANY form of training program whatsoever, and the only official rule for determining if someone was ready was what he said to lcm- "YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!" vpw dismissed an entire early group of corps abruptly. He went to each one later, and offered them a "second chance" -if they were willing to swear an oath of loyalty to him PERSONALLY. Not all of them accepted, but most apparently did.
vpw's claim to fame was the pfal class- all 3 levels of it. Nearly the entire contents of them were plagiarized from BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, JE Stiles or EW Kenyon. Early versions of the White Book (RTHST) mentioned him meeting a man who put the subject together like a hand in a glove- that was JE Stiles- but by the 3rd edition, this mention was dropped completely. The White Book's 1st edition was largely Stiles' book "Gifts of the Spirit" just retyped with a few words moved around. If you have your copy still, you can prove it right now. Flip to the FAQ. There's a question where the answer is phrased that vpw calls some type of people "FAITH BLASTERS." vpw NEVER called ANYONE "faith blasters"- that was Stiles. According to vpw's own claims, he should have called them a "believing-blaster" if anything- but he ripped the FAQ off of Stiles. BTW, if you move the words around and rip off the content but rephrased, that's still plagiarism. If you remove from the pfal classes everything that came straight from Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard, you have less than a session of the foundational, and something like that for the others. Keep in mind that vpw never said that pfal was a compilation of the works of others. A few times he made off-hand comments about SOME content. If you have the book-length advertisement for twi, "The Way- Living in Love," about 200 pages in, vpw said that nothing he did was original except for the way he put it together. Apologists for vpw like to claim that one passing reference, buried in the book, qualifies as him saying pfal was a compilation and not original. It falls far, far short of either.
BTW, the very first pfal class was Leonard's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" that vpw sat through 1 1/2 times. vpw retaught Leonard's content entirely. (People who were grads of Leonard's class were considered automatically to be grads of vpw's class.) vpw rarely mentioned Leonard because the plagiarism there was blatant and too obvious if one looks closely. Not long after that, vpw ran across Stiles, then got Stiles' book and retyped it into the White Book.
If you actually caught vpw doing that, he occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard's errors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance.
Most people would claim that the sheer dishonesty involved with all that would disqualify vpw as a leader of anything. But that's only part of things, since it leaves out the molestation, the rapes, the drugging, and so on.
Well between handsy and stormy we have both parties represented but keeping politics out it just leaves us with our original drambuie Kools and roofies boy and keeps the conversation strictly on religion lol .
Tzaia yes Howard used to also give off that sexual predator past retirement age vibe.
The same Howard who said shiny shoes were good for looking up women's dresses? Yeah, I bet he gave off that vibe in person.
“[vpw] occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like thedifference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard'serrors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance.”
This observable, demonstrable fact of actual reality is not mentioned enough. The plagiarism is frequently observed, sure, but the plagiarized errors and stupidities… wow.
it’s a different level of dishonesty. It’s willful ignorance. It’s contempt of truth.
All of this is unrighteous.
The apologist will rebuff with, “By what measure? Churchianity’s? Five senses realm? Man’s law?” These are but flimsy, rhetorical cop outs designed to deflect and distract.
No. vpw was unrighteous by the very measure of Righteousness itself.
Question
Guest "extremist"
Hi all!
Does anyone have any information/sources/evidence/first hand accounts talking about wierwille's secret sex ring?
I am currently reading undertow but I am not one to be convinced from one perspective.
I recently left TW as someone who has been raised in it their whole life.. and the deprogramming is intense. I think having that information that the "profit" that founded the Way and was in my eyes close to faultless as a person can be, was not as Christ like as they played themselves to be will be a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs. Thank you!
P.S to the admins, I have tried to make an account multiple times with different emails and I am still not getting a verification email.. if someone could help me with that, that would be wonderful!
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waysider
"I am currently reading undertow but I am not one to be convinced from one perspective."
Here it is from another perspective:
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2251610
It's an easy read.
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T-Bone
Waysider mentioned Kristen’s book – and here are a few links you might find interesting:
1989-1998 Timeline: Insanity on Steroids
Why I Wrote My Story -- "Insanity on Steroids"
Cults 3: This week we talk about victor paul wierwille and The Way International
SOCIETY & CULTURE - Cults - E62: “The Way International” - Victor Paul Wierwille
CHARLENE L. EDGE --Author "A Cult Insider's Story"
~ ~ ~ ~
“a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs”
That is an apt description of the necessary process – and basically the same idea as the socratic method in a discussion where a lot of it is asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.
Beliefs are important – that stuff helps us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. And our beliefs - along with experience, observations, and reason even attempt to predict the future: “If I play at the beach all day, I’ll probably get sunburned.”
I left during the aftermath of the 1986 TWI meltdown after 12 years of involvement and I imagined the “deconstructing all of my beliefs” as disassembling a huge brick wall one brick at a time and occasionally several bricks all at once – to analyze the validity and necessity of each brick.
Typically, we tend to base our beliefs on trusted sources. But what happens if you begin to suspect that the organization you’ve trusted for years has not been well grounded, accurate or truthful? I love detective /mystery / sci-fi books, movies, and TV shows. My slow exit of leaving TWI was like binge watching Lost, The X-Files, House of Cards, Big Love, Knives Out, Loga’s Run, The Matrix, Sherlock and the Wizard of Oz – especially the part when Toto pulls back the curtain to expose the wimpy wizard. The various perspectives from others is not what convinced me that wierwille et al was a con – it was simply a matter of trusting my own faculty of judgment – something that was trained out of me courtesy of a harmful and controlling cult – I did not trust my own thinking, instead I trusted wierwille who seemed to have it all figured out.
As a reference point, I acknowledged my viewpoint - a couple of core elements like a belief in a higher power and that the Bible was inspired by God. For all I knew that stuff could be nonsense too – but figuring out the big questions of life, reality and meaning was not the aim of deconstructing my TWI-mindset – even though I had considered wierwille-ideology as definitive answers to the big questions. Some 37 years later – I still believe in a higher power and the divine inspiration of the Bible – those bricks remain in place - and all the dubious bricks of wierwille-ideology have been removed. Not going to get into the scar tissue, therapies, and side projects of unpacking the intellectual and emotional baggage here and now – just want to let you know the journey ain’t over yet – but that’s life – and real life ain’t boring.
~ ~ ~ ~
FYI – I reported your concern to the moderators
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modcat5
Extremist:
Check your am****er e-mail address. I approved your registration, so you don't need to do anything at this point other than log in with the password you chose.
If you have trouble with THAT, check back in here.
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Sunesis
Extremist, in answer to your question, yes. He and his trustees had a "woman in every port" so to speak all over the country and certain gals in the corps. How do I know? I was in one of the early corps. I knew people. I had my women friends tell me about their escapades. I sometimes think I was the only woman who said no to him. Long story, search the threads, its all there.
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Modgellan
Moderator’s note: with the server upgrade on June 5, 2023, we lost a few days worth of previous posts. I happened to have copied this one from Penworks. So I have pasted it back in here.
penworks
Posted June 2, 2023 · IP
Like Sunesis, I was in one of the early Corps, too. The Second Corps. There are lots of threads here on Greasespot that contain accounts.
I am also the author of Undertow, and if you notice in the book, I reference two other books that readers have found helpful. The first one is Losing the Way by Kristen Skedgell which is her true story of VPW seducing using her (mentioned above in Waysider's post.) I happened to know her back then but did not know this dark side of her Way experience until after we both left The Way.
The other book is The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Inside The Way International by Karl Kahler. In Karl's book, you'll find at least one woman's first-hand account of her sexual experiences with VPW and she uses her real name. She was in the First Corps.
Since leaving The Way and publishing Undertow, I now know of many women who were sexually used by VPW, because they either told me themselves, or someone close to them told me. I cannot/will not divulge their names. I get messages through my website on a regular basis from women who've been sexually abused by other Way leaders, too. It's part of VPW's disgraceful legacy.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Rocky
LOL!
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Tzaia
The first time I met VPW was at a state meeting and my immediate take on him was that he was a lecherous old man. He held my hand too long; he took me in with his eyes; and he kept a hand on my arm to the point where I was creeped out. I said something about his behavior to my husband who poo-poohed it. I've been hit on by all kinds and he was hitting on me.
I routinely saw corp grad guys getting into "relationships" with women to get them to take the class and say the ends justified the means.
We left in early 87, and yes I felt vindicated. We lined up with John Lynn since he was close by, but after all the drama in that group I stopped coming around in 05. Haven't missed it a bit.
I know a couple of people who are still in. I don't get it, but they don't push me about coming back.
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waysider
No politics, Allan.
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WordWolf
"I think having that information that the "profit" that founded the Way and was in my eyes close to faultless as a person can be, was not as Christ like as they played themselves to be will be a final blow to deconstructing all of my beliefs. "
This is easy to find around here. What can I say, briefly? According to his own words, vpw chose between 3 professions, 1 of which was ministry, 1 was business, 1 was music. So, it wasn't a calling, but a vocation. Besides, the other 2 would have been more work.
vpw plagiarized his way through his early years as a minister, and in his first year, he REPEATEDLY considered giving up- in his own words! How would he have treated any twi'er who even CONSIDERED giving up twice in a year? When he set up the way corps, he did so with no experience in ANY form of training program whatsoever, and the only official rule for determining if someone was ready was what he said to lcm- "YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!" vpw dismissed an entire early group of corps abruptly. He went to each one later, and offered them a "second chance" -if they were willing to swear an oath of loyalty to him PERSONALLY. Not all of them accepted, but most apparently did.
vpw's claim to fame was the pfal class- all 3 levels of it. Nearly the entire contents of them were plagiarized from BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, JE Stiles or EW Kenyon. Early versions of the White Book (RTHST) mentioned him meeting a man who put the subject together like a hand in a glove- that was JE Stiles- but by the 3rd edition, this mention was dropped completely. The White Book's 1st edition was largely Stiles' book "Gifts of the Spirit" just retyped with a few words moved around. If you have your copy still, you can prove it right now. Flip to the FAQ. There's a question where the answer is phrased that vpw calls some type of people "FAITH BLASTERS." vpw NEVER called ANYONE "faith blasters"- that was Stiles. According to vpw's own claims, he should have called them a "believing-blaster" if anything- but he ripped the FAQ off of Stiles. BTW, if you move the words around and rip off the content but rephrased, that's still plagiarism. If you remove from the pfal classes everything that came straight from Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard, you have less than a session of the foundational, and something like that for the others. Keep in mind that vpw never said that pfal was a compilation of the works of others. A few times he made off-hand comments about SOME content. If you have the book-length advertisement for twi, "The Way- Living in Love," about 200 pages in, vpw said that nothing he did was original except for the way he put it together. Apologists for vpw like to claim that one passing reference, buried in the book, qualifies as him saying pfal was a compilation and not original. It falls far, far short of either.
BTW, the very first pfal class was Leonard's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" that vpw sat through 1 1/2 times. vpw retaught Leonard's content entirely. (People who were grads of Leonard's class were considered automatically to be grads of vpw's class.) vpw rarely mentioned Leonard because the plagiarism there was blatant and too obvious if one looks closely. Not long after that, vpw ran across Stiles, then got Stiles' book and retyped it into the White Book.
If you actually caught vpw doing that, he occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard's errors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance.
Most people would claim that the sheer dishonesty involved with all that would disqualify vpw as a leader of anything. But that's only part of things, since it leaves out the molestation, the rapes, the drugging, and so on.
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WordWolf
The same Howard who said shiny shoes were good for looking up women's dresses? Yeah, I bet he gave off that vibe in person.
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Nathan_Jr
“[vpw] occasionally would claim he worked all the error out of the works of others- but he did not. He seemed not to understand their work, and copied it over with errors intact. So, Bullinger's errors got included (like thedifference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God) and Leonard's errors got included (like the definitions of the manifestations), and so on. He moved some words around to make plagiarism less obvious, and made some things wordier, but did not improve upon their substance.”
This observable, demonstrable fact of actual reality is not mentioned enough. The plagiarism is frequently observed, sure, but the plagiarized errors and stupidities… wow.
it’s a different level of dishonesty. It’s willful ignorance. It’s contempt of truth.
All of this is unrighteous.
The apologist will rebuff with, “By what measure? Churchianity’s? Five senses realm? Man’s law?” These are but flimsy, rhetorical cop outs designed to deflect and distract.
No. vpw was unrighteous by the very measure of Righteousness itself.
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