When religious or cult leaders walk in craftiness, they are also handling the word of God deceitfully. How often have we seen this? The Pharisees were known for their double-standards..... doing one thing in public, yet privately doing another. Open rebuke at the pulpit, yet sinning in the privacy of their own lives.
Why does this deception escape one's discernment? Could it be that adulation and/or idolization has impaired this discernment? How could clergy and corps grads follow Rosalie's leadership for 17 years after Martindale's ouster? It nearly boggles the mind to see how many years it takes to untangle the web of lies and cult indoctrination once it takes hold. This indoctrination is cancerous.
And, true to form... it always seems to follow the same patterns. The religious/cult leader likes to KEEP THE SPOTLIGHT ON YOU.... while s/he hides in the shadows. They like to keep on the offense.... reframing the Scriptures to impose fear, guilt and confusion. That's why their sermons become dead, because there is no living epistle to speak of. They have succumbed to "deadness" inside. I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation. Yet, several days later.... no reply. Was this person serious? What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area? Nothing more forthcoming? Crickets.
Yes valid point. Sometimes when people really share a lot with a group of people over the next days they are ashamed of doing so and so disconnect subconsciously.
MarieP showed up as many have in the past a singular call to examine our own morals and past. If this was a genuine connection then it will not be a drive by. If it is not then hopefully that dump will give her some peace somewhere.
I would also challenge MarieP and her husband to consider this. No matter what people did to hurt you and no matter what you did, it was all due to the system of error set up by an adultering plagiarist who twisted scripture and started a cult that trapped many and robbed them of the abundant life. The only way to end a cycle of continuous abuse is to call it out until it is no longer hidden to the people affected.
I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation. Yet, several days later.... no reply. Was this person serious? What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area?
I'm not sure someone posting rhetorical questions, suggesting readers examine their words/actions needs to verify her bone fides. I will review her OP, but right now do not recall her making any accusations or inappropriate claims.
Sometimes when people really share a lot with a group of people over the next days they are ashamed of doing so and so disconnect subconsciously.
And perhaps sometimes when people show up and make a bold post, they might anticipate harsh replies. There's no social norm requiring the person to continue to engage. In fact, understanding such is implicit in requests made hoping she would engage further.
Bottom-line: take it however you like, but I'd encourage people here to not badger people who do and say what Marie did.
I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them.
RE-reading Marie's OP, I realized the tone and the entire message was an extended "I" statement. Sure, she extended it to "we." What she did NOT do was blame anyone here for anything she did not own herself.
MarieP's post was totally in line with emotional intelligence, IMO.
I'm not sure someone posting rhetorical questions, suggesting readers examine their words/actions needs to verify her bone fides. I will review her OP, but right now do not recall her making any accusations or inappropriate claims.
As I stated before..... I find it intriguing that she came to GreaseSpot after "she started reading a book about The Way." Has she read any of the thousands of threads here at GSC discussing some of these issues? We don't know. She doesn't say. After leaving twi in 1986 (37 years ago).... "this book" caused an epiphany of insight? Okay.... I can understand that. BUT... Waydale/GreaseSpot have been around for 24 years and its message has spread far and wide.
Maybe, she never crossed paths with anyone who was visiting GreaseSpot.... but then, after reading "this book" she come here to post her findings? Yes, it's believable..... but odd. One post and that's it?
Maybe, this "we" is simply referring to her and her husband. Okay. Then this is an account of her sorrow and repentance for following bad leadership and counsel.
"We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them."
Okay, MarieP... you and your husband treated people the way you were trained. That's a broad, generic statement. At times, I'm quite sure that most of us would say something similar..... but oftentimes, we chose the opposite. We treated people the way Jesus Christ would minister to others. I'm sure that I'm not alone is this. Catcup, Sunesis, and dozens of posters have come forward to express how they protected their fellowships from encroaching twi-leadership. This discernment didn't take 37 years to process.
If this is MarieP's personal accounting of her and her husband coming to the full realization of being duped, then it stands as stated. But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party. GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years.
If this is MarieP's personal accounting of her and her husband coming to the full realization of being duped, then it stands as stated. But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party. GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years.
Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise.
No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard.
I ran for an elected position to the governing board of the school district my daughter attended, back in 1998. I faced a good bit of criticism, as candidates apparently always do. Thanks to a hit piece about my divorce in a community newspaper at the last moment, I lost the race. The criticism stung. At this point, this criticism doesn't bother me.
You, Skyrider, have invested a lot and have valiantly made yourself vulnerable on GSC. That, I believe, is a solid indication of strength of character. I'm thankful for your input, both on this thread and over the years.
Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise.
No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard.
I ran for an elected position to the governing board of the school district my daughter attended, back in 1998. I faced a good bit of criticism, as candidates apparently always do. Thanks to a hit piece about my divorce in a community newspaper at the last moment, I lost the race. The criticism stung. At this point, this criticism doesn't bother me.
You, Skyrider, have invested a lot and have valiantly made yourself vulnerable on GSC. That, I believe, is a solid indication of strength of character. I'm thankful for your input, both on this thread and over the years.
Your points are well-taken, Rocky. As I examine my response further.... I would agree that it's not MarieP per se, my response is more directed at twi-hierarchy that put us corps back on our heels with intimidation. They would level an accusation in broad-stroke fashion to one individual and then proceed to lecture all of us on our failings. This was Corps Training 101 m.o.
All of us have come short of the glory of God whether we were corps or not. All of us needed a savior. The point I was trying to make was how this tactic is used. I sat in enough corps meetings during my 20+ tenure in twi to understand its effects. The way corps are an easy target, because they are caught between being "the representatives of twi's policies" and going forth to help others.
I certainly don't excuse the corps for bad behavior. We know it was prevalent among hundreds of "leaders." Yet, there were some 3,500 corps more or less. I suppose it's like any group of individuals.... you're always going to find 10-20% who are the bad apples, corrupted by greed, influence and power.
Long before coming to GSC, I held these thoughts on twi-leadership, even wierwille. When I graduated from the 9th corps, I vowed that I would NOT be like wierwille (brash, arrogant, short-tempered, etc). Even as early as 1978, I started to see these red flags in twi. Therefore, it didn't take "reading a book" for me to come to some sort of epiphany about this abuse. Do I have regrets of my involvement? Should I have exited earlier? Would I have ended my marriage in divorce by leaving when I wanted to leave?
GSC has provided us with an open forum to discuss and process our twi-involvement. It is a healthy exercise that one can process over time. Having been subjected to a heavy dose of cult indoctrination involving leadership roles and tactics, more corps would be benefitted by this level of introspection. By ignoring its effects, people can go through life with jaded perspectives and deceptive tactics masking as truth.
Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise.
No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard.
For the record.... I didn't say that she was obligated to refrain from finger-pointing...
What I said was....."But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party. GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years."
RE-reading Marie's OP, I realized the tone and the entire message was an extended "I" statement. Sure, she extended it to "we." What she did NOT do was blame anyone here for anything she did not own herself.
MarieP's post was totally in line with emotional intelligence, IMO.
I guess I find it interesting that after a good period of time we have more communication speculating the intent and boundaries surrounding what she was saying rather than interaction and clarification and the exchange of ideas to promote community growth.
While I can and do examine my past, admit my mistakes and have left an abusive system to not get looped in to an abused/abuser cycle, including admitting error just being in the group, what profit is a drive by with an emotional dump for the entire body of Christ?
So I completely disagree. While the initial elements contained some emotional awareness, GSC also is not a garbage dump for waylaid regret. The lack of reconnecting and continuing a discussion you started is not emotional intelligence. It is using others for an emotional release and a dumping ground.
I hope MarieP and spouse get past this and talk more about their perceived culpability and its sources. To me that is the only way to emotional intelligence.
If not then Marie thanks for the observations I will and already have considered and worked it into my views and consideration. Best wishes finding peace with your past, present and future.
While the initial elements contained some emotional awareness, GSC also is not a garbage dump for waylaid regret. The lack of reconnecting and continuing a discussion you started is not emotional intelligence. It is using others for an emotional release and a dumping ground.
Yes, the lack of reconnecting to continue a conversation she started shows a lack of respect. If all this was such “an epiphany of revelation”…. why did it wane so quickly?
Maybe she will come back and give us a good reason for her absence. It might be warranted, but for now…. we are left speculating.
It certainly falls short in adding much depth to what we’ve discussed hundreds of times. I don’t think she realizes how generic and mundane it sounds to those of us corps grads who experienced the abuse.
An “I” message is not about being polite. It’s about being clear. An “I” messages is not concerned with how the other person might respond. An “I” message is not intended to force another person to “fix the problem.” It is clear statement that says “this is how it looks from my perspective.”
An “I” message says “this is how it looks from my side of things.”
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, no big deal.
I don't understand the defensiveness in response to Marie's OP.
I don't have a compelling desire to understand it.
An “I” message is not about being polite. It’s about being clear. An “I” messages is not concerned with how the other person might respond. An “I” message is not intended to force another person to “fix the problem.” It is clear statement that says “this is how it looks from my perspective.”
An “I” message says “this is how it looks from my side of things.”
The "I" statements are fine. No problem.
The "us" and "we" statements add ambiguity to her post.
On 3/15/2023 at 4:30 PM, MarieP said:
All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it!
Sure, we all did things we should not have done as way corps. Broad-brush statement and all.
"But it was justified"..... why does MarieP think it was justified because of righteous anger. It was NOT justified according to Scripture. Who went around justifying all their actions by "righteous anger?" I can't name one corps person who did this time and time again.
I'm simply clarifying my experience as opposed to hers. What she claims as opposed to giving specificity to her claims.... I simply contest the "we" part.
I went to YouTube a little while ago. I don't know if this video suggests a bit of synchronicity or not, but I found it intriguing and though back to my childhood.
An “I” message is not about being polite. It’s about being clear. An “I” messages is not concerned with how the other person might respond. An “I” message is not intended to force another person to “fix the problem.” It is clear statement that says “this is how it looks from my perspective.”
An “I” message says “this is how it looks from my side of things.”
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, no big deal.
I don't understand the defensiveness in response to Marie's OP.
I don't have a compelling desire to understand it.
“All of us in the Way Corps” doesn’t look to me like an “I” statement.
I don’t understand how challenging someone to participate in a discussion about “all of us in the Way Corps” is defensive in the least bit.
Maybe you can come up with a compelling desire to explain that …. since you are speaking on it.
“All of us in the Way Corps” doesn’t look to me like an “I” statement.
I don’t understand how challenging someone to participate in a discussion about “all of us in the Way Corps” is defensive in the least bit.
Maybe you can come up with a compelling desire to explain that …. since you are speaking on it.
Oh myy. I'm not sure that's defensive, but it sure sounds confrontational.
Is it really a GSC social norm to challenge people to participate in an ongoing confrontational "discussion?"
I can only surmise such confrontation of MarieP might be a disincentive for her to participate in said ongoing confrontation(al) discussion. And for anyone else might consider dipping their toe in the water here if they are considering adding insight from their twi experience.
So, by all means, proceed as you wish. However, if you want new people share here, consider how your words might sound to such prospective contributors.
IIRC, there have been plenty of obstructors over the decades here. But MarieP, regardless of how anyone else reads her post at the beginning of this thread, doesn't strike me as one of them.
Oh myy. I'm not sure that's defensive, but it sure sounds confrontational.
Is it really a GSC social norm to challenge people to participate in an ongoing confrontational "discussion?"
I can only surmise such confrontation of MarieP might be a disincentive for her to participate in said ongoing confrontation(al) discussion. And for anyone else might consider dipping their toe in the water here if they are considering adding insight from their twi experience.
So, by all means, proceed as you wish. However, if you want new people share here, consider how your words might sound to such prospective contributors.
IIRC, there have been plenty of obstructors over the decades here. But MarieP, regardless of how anyone else reads her post at the beginning of this thread, doesn't strike me as one of them.
Dude - pot kettle on the “confrontational” - you are the one calling us “defensive”.
MarieP showed up as many have in the past a singular call to examine our own morals and past. If this was a genuine connection then it will not be a drive by. If it is not then hopefully that dump will give her some peace somewhere.
So, you're making a judgment about her motives based on whether or not she continues to engage in a confrontational discussion? How very Christlike of you.
I seem to recall Jesus being confrontational in a couple of Gospel records. But only with the moneychangers, Pharisees and Sadducees. Am I wrong in that recollection?
So, you're making a judgment about her motives based on whether or not she continues to engage in a confrontational discussion? How very Christlike of you.
I seem to recall Jesus being confrontational in a couple of Gospel records. But only with the moneychangers, Pharisees and Sadducees. Am I wrong in that recollection?
No I am stating a reasonable assumption.
Now you are progressing in the accusations to “not Christlike”.
I am simply pointing out a touch of hypocrisy in starting a thread here with this title calling out “all of us on the Way Corps” to “take a long hard look at ourselves” and then not returning to do what they were calling us out on although the discussion has been ongoing since last Wednesday.
I personally feel pointing that out is very “Christlike”. He pointed out hypocrisy often. But feel free to continue your word study of who he did this to. Maybe it will lead back to your accusations roundabout.
I started out making every excuse for why the disengagement after the initial confrontation. Make no mistake the original post does contain an accusation with “as Way Corps we all ….. XYZ”
She knows not a single thing of my life in that program.
And yes I first complied and answered honestly. Now I’m coming back with I’m not an emotional play toy to come dump on here then run and not deal with discussing what you said about others. And me.
I’m sure next you’ll blame me for her not posting.
Take a step back and see what all this is generating. Division here and lack of focus on TWI but rather how we may or may not have participated properly in the Stanford prison experiment. Taking a hard look at ourselves. By ourselves.
Ok I did. And as a result TWI it’s not me it’s you. And you can keep the guilt trip and try to sell it to Jesus at the return.
Now you are progressing in the accusations to “not Christlike”.
I am simply pointing out a touch of hypocrisy in starting a thread here with this title calling out “all of us on the Way Corps” to “take a long hard look at ourselves” and then not returning to do what they were calling us out on although the discussion has been ongoing since last Wednesday.
Yes, she started a thread calling out "all of us who were in the Way Corps."
Below is the beginning of the "we" part.
On 3/15/2023 at 4:30 PM, MarieP said:
All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified becausewehad to have 'righteous anger'.We can point fingers.We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it!
The substance of this post is confrontation:
"All of us in The Way Corps did things we should not have done."
"We treated people the way we were trained..."
"But it was justified because we (way corps) had to have 'righteous anger.'"
"We can point fingers."
"We can say this person did this bad thing."
"But what about a deep long hard look at what we did?"
"We (way corps) were a part of it."
I do not think it unreasonable that MarieP is getting some pushback from this confrontational post. First of all, she may be a newbie to this site, but she and her husband are corps grads. I would imagine that they've been around the block or two concerning confrontations. There is plenty of ambiguity in her post. Does she NOT want us "pointing fingers" and calling out wierwille, trustees, enablers, and those complicit with perpetuating this evil on the body of believers?
The mission statement of this website is to tell the other side of the story concerning the trustees and twi. When she posted on this site, is it her intention to say we've all sinned so stfu? Is this her way of trying to be Christ-like.... when (as corps) she obviously knows that Jesus confronted the Pharisees for their religious manipulation and exploitation of the people?
Should I remind her what Christ-like love entails? Luk 4:18The Spiritof the Lordisuponme,becausehe hath anointedmeto preach the gospelto the poor;he hath sentmeto healthe brokenhearted,to preachdeliveranceto the captives,andrecovering of sightto the blind,to setatlibertythem that are bruised. It is NOT silence.... but stepping forth to help heal/comfort the brokenhearted who had their dreams and character smashed. It's helping the captives (from cult indoctrination) to be set free. And, detailing how they were spiritually blinded by deception so that they can walk in liberty, no longer bound by past guilt or experiences.
Now you are progressing in the accusations to “not Christlike”.
I am simply pointing out a touch of hypocrisy in starting a thread here with this title calling out “all of us on the Way Corps” to “take a long hard look at ourselves” and then not returning to do what they were calling us out on although the discussion has been ongoing since last Wednesday.
I personally feel pointing that out is very “Christlike”. He pointed out hypocrisy often. But feel free to continue your word study of who he did this to. Maybe it will lead back to your accusations roundabout.
I started out making every excuse for why the disengagement after the initial confrontation. Make no mistake the original post does contain an accusation with “as Way Corps we all ….. XYZ”
She knows not a single thing of my life in that program.
And yes I first complied and answered honestly. Now I’m coming back with I’m not an emotional play toy to come dump on here then run and not deal with discussing what you said about others. And me.
I’m sure next you’ll blame me for her not posting.
Take a step back and see what all this is generating. Division here and lack of focus on TWI but rather how we may or may not have participated properly in the Stanford prison experiment. Taking a hard look at ourselves. By ourselves.
Ok I did. And as a result TWI it’s not me it’s you. And you can keep the guilt trip and try to sell it to Jesus at the return.
Wow! Reasonable assumption? How so? Do you have any rational basis to determine your assumption is reasonable?
Do you know much about her "life in that program?"
You're sure I intend to blame you for her action/inaction? How is that NOT projection?
Well, there's a LOT in every line of your comment I quoted herein. My ONLY response is reflection, not declaration. Nevertheless, thanks.
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skyrider
This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden thing
Charity
Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts, I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced c
chockfull
I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate.
chockfull
Yes valid point. Sometimes when people really share a lot with a group of people over the next days they are ashamed of doing so and so disconnect subconsciously.
MarieP showed up as many have in the past a singular call to examine our own morals and past. If this was a genuine connection then it will not be a drive by. If it is not then hopefully that dump will give her some peace somewhere.
I would also challenge MarieP and her husband to consider this. No matter what people did to hurt you and no matter what you did, it was all due to the system of error set up by an adultering plagiarist who twisted scripture and started a cult that trapped many and robbed them of the abundant life. The only way to end a cycle of continuous abuse is to call it out until it is no longer hidden to the people affected.
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Rocky
I'm not sure someone posting rhetorical questions, suggesting readers examine their words/actions needs to verify her bone fides. I will review her OP, but right now do not recall her making any accusations or inappropriate claims.
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Rocky
And perhaps sometimes when people show up and make a bold post, they might anticipate harsh replies. There's no social norm requiring the person to continue to engage. In fact, understanding such is implicit in requests made hoping she would engage further.
Bottom-line: take it however you like, but I'd encourage people here to not badger people who do and say what Marie did.
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Rocky
RE-reading Marie's OP, I realized the tone and the entire message was an extended "I" statement. Sure, she extended it to "we." What she did NOT do was blame anyone here for anything she did not own herself.
MarieP's post was totally in line with emotional intelligence, IMO.
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WordWolf
For those who want more on rfr, here's the previous link, and another with connecting links...
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/1852-what-do-we-know-about-the-fox/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/6604-who-is-rosalie-fox-rivenbark/
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skyrider
As I stated before..... I find it intriguing that she came to GreaseSpot after "she started reading a book about The Way." Has she read any of the thousands of threads here at GSC discussing some of these issues? We don't know. She doesn't say. After leaving twi in 1986 (37 years ago).... "this book" caused an epiphany of insight? Okay.... I can understand that. BUT... Waydale/GreaseSpot have been around for 24 years and its message has spread far and wide.
Maybe, she never crossed paths with anyone who was visiting GreaseSpot.... but then, after reading "this book" she come here to post her findings? Yes, it's believable..... but odd. One post and that's it?
Maybe, this "we" is simply referring to her and her husband. Okay. Then this is an account of her sorrow and repentance for following bad leadership and counsel.
Okay, MarieP... you and your husband treated people the way you were trained. That's a broad, generic statement. At times, I'm quite sure that most of us would say something similar..... but oftentimes, we chose the opposite. We treated people the way Jesus Christ would minister to others. I'm sure that I'm not alone is this. Catcup, Sunesis, and dozens of posters have come forward to express how they protected their fellowships from encroaching twi-leadership. This discernment didn't take 37 years to process.
If this is MarieP's personal accounting of her and her husband coming to the full realization of being duped, then it stands as stated. But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party. GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years.
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Rocky
Fair points. Nevertheless, "we in the corps" were duped. And yes, GSC has been sounding this alarm for more than two decades. Personally, I'm not offended even if she was engaged in a finger-pointing exercise.
No reader at GSC is obligated to refrain from finger-pointing, last I heard.
I ran for an elected position to the governing board of the school district my daughter attended, back in 1998. I faced a good bit of criticism, as candidates apparently always do. Thanks to a hit piece about my divorce in a community newspaper at the last moment, I lost the race. The criticism stung. At this point, this criticism doesn't bother me.
You, Skyrider, have invested a lot and have valiantly made yourself vulnerable on GSC. That, I believe, is a solid indication of strength of character. I'm thankful for your input, both on this thread and over the years.
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skyrider
Your points are well-taken, Rocky. As I examine my response further.... I would agree that it's not MarieP per se, my response is more directed at twi-hierarchy that put us corps back on our heels with intimidation. They would level an accusation in broad-stroke fashion to one individual and then proceed to lecture all of us on our failings. This was Corps Training 101 m.o.
All of us have come short of the glory of God whether we were corps or not. All of us needed a savior. The point I was trying to make was how this tactic is used. I sat in enough corps meetings during my 20+ tenure in twi to understand its effects. The way corps are an easy target, because they are caught between being "the representatives of twi's policies" and going forth to help others.
I certainly don't excuse the corps for bad behavior. We know it was prevalent among hundreds of "leaders." Yet, there were some 3,500 corps more or less. I suppose it's like any group of individuals.... you're always going to find 10-20% who are the bad apples, corrupted by greed, influence and power.
Long before coming to GSC, I held these thoughts on twi-leadership, even wierwille. When I graduated from the 9th corps, I vowed that I would NOT be like wierwille (brash, arrogant, short-tempered, etc). Even as early as 1978, I started to see these red flags in twi. Therefore, it didn't take "reading a book" for me to come to some sort of epiphany about this abuse. Do I have regrets of my involvement? Should I have exited earlier? Would I have ended my marriage in divorce by leaving when I wanted to leave?
GSC has provided us with an open forum to discuss and process our twi-involvement. It is a healthy exercise that one can process over time. Having been subjected to a heavy dose of cult indoctrination involving leadership roles and tactics, more corps would be benefitted by this level of introspection. By ignoring its effects, people can go through life with jaded perspectives and deceptive tactics masking as truth.
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skyrider
For the record.... I didn't say that she was obligated to refrain from finger-pointing...
What I said was....."But if this is a finger-pointing exercise that "we in the corps" were duped..... then she's very late to the party. GSC has been sounding this alarm for some 22 years."
Have a nice day, Rocky.
.
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chockfull
I guess I find it interesting that after a good period of time we have more communication speculating the intent and boundaries surrounding what she was saying rather than interaction and clarification and the exchange of ideas to promote community growth.
While I can and do examine my past, admit my mistakes and have left an abusive system to not get looped in to an abused/abuser cycle, including admitting error just being in the group, what profit is a drive by with an emotional dump for the entire body of Christ?
So I completely disagree. While the initial elements contained some emotional awareness, GSC also is not a garbage dump for waylaid regret. The lack of reconnecting and continuing a discussion you started is not emotional intelligence. It is using others for an emotional release and a dumping ground.
I hope MarieP and spouse get past this and talk more about their perceived culpability and its sources. To me that is the only way to emotional intelligence.
If not then Marie thanks for the observations I will and already have considered and worked it into my views and consideration. Best wishes finding peace with your past, present and future.
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skyrider
Yes, the lack of reconnecting to continue a conversation she started shows a lack of respect. If all this was such “an epiphany of revelation”…. why did it wane so quickly?
Maybe she will come back and give us a good reason for her absence. It might be warranted, but for now…. we are left speculating.
It certainly falls short in adding much depth to what we’ve discussed hundreds of times. I don’t think she realizes how generic and mundane it sounds to those of us corps grads who experienced the abuse.
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Rocky
I statements are not blaming. They are
An “I” message is not about being polite. It’s about being clear. An “I” messages is not concerned with how the other person might respond. An “I” message is not intended to force another person to “fix the problem.” It is clear statement that says “this is how it looks from my perspective.”
An “I” message says “this is how it looks from my side of things.”
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, no big deal.
I don't understand the defensiveness in response to Marie's OP.
I don't have a compelling desire to understand it.
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skyrider
The "I" statements are fine. No problem.
The "us" and "we" statements add ambiguity to her post.
Sure, we all did things we should not have done as way corps. Broad-brush statement and all.
"But it was justified"..... why does MarieP think it was justified because of righteous anger. It was NOT justified according to Scripture. Who went around justifying all their actions by "righteous anger?" I can't name one corps person who did this time and time again.
I'm simply clarifying my experience as opposed to hers. What she claims as opposed to giving specificity to her claims.... I simply contest the "we" part.
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Rocky
I went to YouTube a little while ago. I don't know if this video suggests a bit of synchronicity or not, but I found it intriguing and though back to my childhood.
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chockfull
“All of us in the Way Corps” doesn’t look to me like an “I” statement.
I don’t understand how challenging someone to participate in a discussion about “all of us in the Way Corps” is defensive in the least bit.
Maybe you can come up with a compelling desire to explain that …. since you are speaking on it.
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Rocky
Oh myy. I'm not sure that's defensive, but it sure sounds confrontational.
Is it really a GSC social norm to challenge people to participate in an ongoing confrontational "discussion?"
I can only surmise such confrontation of MarieP might be a disincentive for her to participate in said ongoing confrontation(al) discussion. And for anyone else might consider dipping their toe in the water here if they are considering adding insight from their twi experience.
So, by all means, proceed as you wish. However, if you want new people share here, consider how your words might sound to such prospective contributors.
IIRC, there have been plenty of obstructors over the decades here. But MarieP, regardless of how anyone else reads her post at the beginning of this thread, doesn't strike me as one of them.
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chockfull
Dude - pot kettle on the “confrontational” - you are the one calling us “defensive”.
I am responding in kind.
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Rocky
So, you're making a judgment about her motives based on whether or not she continues to engage in a confrontational discussion? How very Christlike of you.
I seem to recall Jesus being confrontational in a couple of Gospel records. But only with the moneychangers, Pharisees and Sadducees. Am I wrong in that recollection?
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Rocky
Seriously? Really?
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chockfull
First it was “defensive” now it is “confrontational”?
Seriously? Really?
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chockfull
No I am stating a reasonable assumption.
Now you are progressing in the accusations to “not Christlike”.
I am simply pointing out a touch of hypocrisy in starting a thread here with this title calling out “all of us on the Way Corps” to “take a long hard look at ourselves” and then not returning to do what they were calling us out on although the discussion has been ongoing since last Wednesday.
I personally feel pointing that out is very “Christlike”. He pointed out hypocrisy often. But feel free to continue your word study of who he did this to. Maybe it will lead back to your accusations roundabout.
I started out making every excuse for why the disengagement after the initial confrontation. Make no mistake the original post does contain an accusation with “as Way Corps we all ….. XYZ”
She knows not a single thing of my life in that program.
And yes I first complied and answered honestly. Now I’m coming back with I’m not an emotional play toy to come dump on here then run and not deal with discussing what you said about others. And me.
I’m sure next you’ll blame me for her not posting.
Take a step back and see what all this is generating. Division here and lack of focus on TWI but rather how we may or may not have participated properly in the Stanford prison experiment. Taking a hard look at ourselves. By ourselves.
Ok I did. And as a result TWI it’s not me it’s you. And you can keep the guilt trip and try to sell it to Jesus at the return.
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skyrider
Yes, she started a thread calling out "all of us who were in the Way Corps."
Below is the beginning of the "we" part.
The substance of this post is confrontation:
I do not think it unreasonable that MarieP is getting some pushback from this confrontational post. First of all, she may be a newbie to this site, but she and her husband are corps grads. I would imagine that they've been around the block or two concerning confrontations. There is plenty of ambiguity in her post. Does she NOT want us "pointing fingers" and calling out wierwille, trustees, enablers, and those complicit with perpetuating this evil on the body of believers?
The mission statement of this website is to tell the other side of the story concerning the trustees and twi. When she posted on this site, is it her intention to say we've all sinned so stfu? Is this her way of trying to be Christ-like.... when (as corps) she obviously knows that Jesus confronted the Pharisees for their religious manipulation and exploitation of the people?
Should I remind her what Christ-like love entails? Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. It is NOT silence.... but stepping forth to help heal/comfort the brokenhearted who had their dreams and character smashed. It's helping the captives (from cult indoctrination) to be set free. And, detailing how they were spiritually blinded by deception so that they can walk in liberty, no longer bound by past guilt or experiences.
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Rocky
Wow! Reasonable assumption? How so? Do you have any rational basis to determine your assumption is reasonable?
Do you know much about her "life in that program?"
You're sure I intend to blame you for her action/inaction? How is that NOT projection?
Well, there's a LOT in every line of your comment I quoted herein. My ONLY response is reflection, not declaration. Nevertheless, thanks.
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Rocky
Sure, you possibly could, if she come back to read. Will she do so?
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