Without being overly-judgmental of our own lives, could it be that God has us on "the right path" even though we lament our tenure in twi?
This is the case for me seeing that Im an eyewitness of the white washing and such that went into hyper drive with theh Allen lawsuit and ensuing coverup. It seems many of us here were exposed to a lot of evils first hand and to expose it is how not to be culpable.
Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.
This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden things of darkness. Some things remain hidden in our lives until the passage of time.
Without being overly-judgmental of our own lives, could it be that God has us on "the right path" even though we lament our tenure in twi? Could it be that until the passage of time, we were unable to receive, discern or examine the effects of standing before God without going through some "trials and tribulations" of our own? In reading the Church Epistles, I find that the Apostle Paul gives us large sweeping swaths of truth regarding 1) Legalism and 2) Liberty. On one side of the ledger, legalism in adherence to the law does not warrant one's own righteousness before God. Even with his bloodline and high credentials (a Pharisee of the Pharisees and as touching the law, blameless), Paul fell short of the righteousness given from God by faith. For indeed, it was in the power of Christ's resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings that opened doors of grace and mercy.
On the other side is Liberty in Christ. Can one use this liberty as a license to sin? No, because in this liberty one might inflict harm on another believer by being a stumbling block to his faith. One is not to flaunt this liberty or be puffed up against another. Life in Christ must be in moderation else the trappings of the flesh, lusts and lasciviousness surface from the hidden darkness attempt to overtake this man or woman in their folly.
Even though I was involved in twi for 20+ years.... there were several years (ie -- "fog years") that twi-activity was crawling along and we were raising our boys. During those times, we were engaged in life's simple activities and family time. Walks in the park, swing sets, slides, swimming pools, hugs and laughter .... living life. Other times, as years passed.... I think about fun activities with the believers. Snow skiing in Canada, hockey games, volleyball, basketball, movies, barbeques, etc..... enjoying the fellowship of others. So, when I approach this examination of "hurting others via twi-policies".... I try to give it some perspective through my years of involvement with twi.
So, with some deeper perspective..... maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up with a few missteps or zealousness to "do good." Maybe, just maybe.... our tenure in twi has given us greater insight of youthful exuberance carried away by bad counsel. Could it have happened under another Christian organization or business endeavor? Probably. Look how much we gained through our experiences. As Rocky and others like to always point out.... you and I wouldn't be able to help others with insight and guidance had we not taken this pathway in life. We are the sum total of our experiences.
Peace to all.
I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate. The Way’s version of that reality is a “lifetime of Christian service” as a label, but the details of that are becoming a yes-man to Pharisees who make policy to make life easier for themselves and harder for those that follow them. And to tiptoe around in fear of saying anything critical for fear of excommunication.
That is not a lifetime of Christian service. That is a lifetime of Pharisee service and self service.
So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system. How do I resolve those two ? Human nature is to make up a story where I am a hero. Whether true or not.
But the truth of the matter is the corrupt system hurt and enslaved many. And I was “sold out” to the system and didn’t really consider that some people would bait and switch my genuine desire to replace with absolute compliance to “the system”.
One analogy has been the role of a prison guard. These roles can be assumed very quickly as the Stanford prison experiment showed. The Way Corps was a larger scale Stanford Prison Experiment that produces a new set of prison guards every year, helping to perpetuate the prison experiment lifestyle.
A ruling class and a governed class. Both classes constructed on blind obedience and trust. This is a recipe for a cult. The pattern can get really bad like the Heavens Gate group and the Jonestown group. In TWI sometimes you had benevolent prison guards who treated the prisoners well. With my genuine heart and desire I fulfilled that pattern most of the time. But I was bound to follow orders and beat the prisoners other times.
So do I want to invent a history where I was the hero to myself and everyone around me? I don’t. I feel that would be lying to myself and everyone around. I would rather try and view from an objective perspective and highlight the scam that started the prison experiment.
Was God there through it all? Yes always. Did I see His hand in my life in the midst of this? Yes. To me to be true to God I tell the truth now. Thankfully my family hasn’t shunned me and I am able to rebuild some bridges. That’s not true for others who were victims of shunning and whose families are entangled still. These are very real ongoing problems. The gap between the whole body of Christ functioning together and a bunch of Pharisees isolating a “household of God” subject to lock step compliance is huge.
To me telling the truth is more important than my ego to reinvent the path I traveled. Let me be an average Christian in an average church doing average good works over being some hot shot who posts his resume on the net about how they saved the world through the greatness of their “yes ma’am”.
We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them. As Stanford prison guards. Not some anointed version of a fake clergy with a golden calf VP statue and an oversized ego. Not saying that is you sky. You have a genuine heart to help others and serve. Your insights are articulate and balanced. You help a lot of people here. I’m sure you helped people you led also in TWI. So did I and yes I have memories of some great snapshots that God helped energize when I was in also.
Just trying to tell the truth and catalyze more freedom for myself and others. And the truth about TWI is to look at the putrid fruit brought about by their Pharisee systems and activities.
I would rather have one day of freedom than 10 years of recognition of being a really important person in a prison experiment.
This is the case for me seeing that Im an eyewitness of the white washing and such that went into hyper drive with theh Allen lawsuit and ensuing coverup. It seems many of us here were exposed to a lot of evils first hand and to expose it is how not to be culpable.
Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.
We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them.
Oftentimes, if and when I get overly-critical of my involvement in this pseudo-Christian outfit that morphed into a cult.... I remind myself that God looks on the heart. He knows our longings, our desires, our inner thoughts. So, with that.... I thank Him for His grace and mercy and move on.
Oftentimes, if and when I get overly-critical of my involvement in this pseudo-Christian outfit that morphed into a cult.... I remind myself that God looks on the heart. He knows our longings, our desires, our inner thoughts. So, with that.... I thank Him for His grace and mercy and move onl
God looks on the heart. Jesus instructs to examine by the fruit.
What is “overly critical” about following Jesus instructions? Even toward our own historical path?
We all are struggling with the cognitive dissonance of our genuine hearts being turned to serve a corrupt system.
I also am thankful for Gods grace and mercy and have moved on. Doctrinally and practically.
Psalm 23 is mine.
Part of moving on is telling the truth. If it is not why post here at all? Why not just move on? To me it is because to truly serve Jesus Christ I have a duty to tell the truth to help others from the same snare.
I mean how did you handle believers who came to you asking about the dilemma between a mortgage and the Advanced Class? Well or no?
Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.
I didn’t learn to be overly judgmental of my life in TWI. Exactly the opposite. I was Corps fulfilling Gods calling. I was walking by revelation. I was following the directives laid out in the household.
When did I become “overly judgmental” of my life? When I was shunned and manipulated and gaslighted to believe the negative things the Pharisees told me.
So what did I do? Sought out a second opinion. And told the first group and their opinion to pound sand.
I guess in a topic entitled “taking responsibility and a long hard look at yourself” this would not be the thread where I am focusing on the sonship rights from the blue book.
It would be more where I do the hard work to sort out my culpability in past endeavors.
Sorry sometimes words come out really direct I’m not trying to confront anyone I am trying to tell my truth.
I didn’t learn to be overly judgmental of my life in TWI. Exactly the opposite. I was Corps fulfilling Gods calling. I was walking by revelation. I was following the directives laid out in the household.
When did I become “overly judgmental” of my life? When I was shunned and manipulated and gaslighted to believe the negative things the Pharisees told me.
So what did I do? Sought out a second opinion. And told the first group and their opinion to pound sand.
Yes, pound sand. I took the same path and refused to harbor any guilt whatsoever. My heart was right with God and I claimed it.
Godly sorry might be something to consider as well. Paul spoke about the godly sorrow the believers of the Corinthian church had after receiving Paul's first letter to them. Sorrow means to experience deep, emotional pain (sadness), i.e. severe sorrow (grief) which is probably why verse 10 says there's a worldly sorrow that produces death.
2 Cor 7:11 lists how much good came out of their godly sorrow: diligence/earnestness; clearing of yourselves (an apology); indignation/anger; fear/alarm; vehement desire/longing; zeal/concern and revenge/readiness to see justice done.
Paul then says, "In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
It's important to note that the word "guilt" is not used.
Here's another thing we may not have grasped fully in twi: paradox.
Two or more contradictory things might both be true at the same time.
In my 60s, I can see how I have some wisdom I didn't have, especially between the ages of 19 and 31.
We submitted ourselves (at least I did) to someone I now believe was teaching things by word and deed which were wrong a lot.
How and why did I obtain such wisdom, if I did at all?
I think of Romans 5.
"we[c]also glory in our sufferings,because we know that suffering produces perseverance;4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.5 And hopedoes not put us to shame, because God’s lovehas been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit,who has been given to us."
Suffering? In the Gospel of John, doesn't Jesus tell us that in this world we will have trouble. Pressure? Stress? Make mistakes perhaps? (Many of them). But in Him we can have comfort and peace.
Going through such experiences produces, if we are humble, a depth of understanding (including to correct our "path" or conduct) and wisdom. Wisdom comes by making mistakes and learning from them... rather than steadfastly believing we weren't on the wrong path to begin with, perhaps.
Yeah, I use the word perhaps quite a bit. I'm not as certain about things now as I was 40 years ago.
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind.
......
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
I disagree.
Maybe some corps treated people the way they were trained.... but I would venture to say that 85-90% of the corps did NOT do that. You have to acknowledge that our corps training was over-the-top confrontational and obedient training. I highly doubt whether this "style" of leadership was effective on the field. In fact, we were warned to NOT use these tactics on believers. THIS WAS TRAINING.... not a how-to hand guide for running fellowship.
In my experience, those who applied these hard-hitting tactics might rise to the region coordinator level.... where they are tasked with "keeping the coal shoveled into the locomotive engines" of each limb in their region. In other words, most all their confrontation was leveled at limb coordinators. With all the levels of subordination and activity, a hard-nosed leader could justify his confrontations in a number of ways. Sure, there were instances of abusive leaders, and those who committed such acts should seek or have sought forgiveness. But I have come to believe that there were a number of narcissists who liked this power over others and have little or no empathy for the abuse they caused.
Whereas, those who sit in seats of power at headquarters were culpable of this abuse as well. Wierwille could do his on-stage "you're the best" routine, but behind the scenes he wielded the power over the corps training. He signed off on these tactics. It is known here at GSC that wierwille was the instigator behind TFI (Total Fitness Institute), the super-charged LEAD training in California (TFI, the predecessor of LEAD). Corps were put in large refrigerator boxes late at night to simulate a POW-scenario... where loud music was blared and provocateurs beat on the sides of these boxes with clubs. Martindale tried to lead a revolt and failed miserably. Maybe, that's where these early corps coordinators came up with abuse tactics.
One one occasion in the 9th/7th corps training, George Hendley the corps coordinator felt it a need to summon all corps on a Sunday evening to put on their corps sweats and meet him in the back 40. George was an old football jock who prided himself on his discipline to calisthenics. So, when we gathered he had each branch assembled together and doing basic jumping jacks, push-ups, leg-lifts, etc. (anyone who played football knows these exercises). Well, the more we ran-in-place.... the soft soil oozed with a muddy patch of glob. As we did push-ups, the girls started complaining that their hair was getting all muddy. The situation continued to escalate for another 40 minutes or so.... with confrontations leveled at certain branch leaders. When it all ended, many of us ran back to our dorm showers and just stepped into those showers with sweats and all to wash away the mud and another confrontation episode.
All of this definitely had aspects of the Stanford Prison Experiment in years to come, but the majority of corps fell on the side of the abused. So, you are correct that some corps imitated the corps training tactics.... but it is incorrect to implicate the majority. Some of us knew all-too-well how it felt to be the recipient of scathing confrontation and we didn't like or justify it one bit.
I was one of the ones who mostly shielded field followers from HQ bs. I stood up for them in meetings upward and spoke against extreme punishment or tactics or shunning.
I also knew people who tried to recreate the Corps environment on the field. This was 180 degrees different than how we led people. We always had others propped up in leadership unlike the example shown us. We didn’t institute “mini Corps programs” in fellowships like many Corps grads I saw doing.
Yet I still remember very distinctly being directly instructed to yell at particular people, with an unspoken threat for non compliance - from more than one region coordinator . And other various Stanford prison types of “assignments” to “check something out” from hq.
I never have and never will justify my complicity in this system and actions under direct instruction and duress not just modeling.
The yelling thing changed after LCM was canned. RFR was way more passive aggressive. Under those Pharisees they would question lock step commitment and shun people from a closed door meeting then never talk about it. Different from LCM who would trash someone from Corps night. This had less overt libel and slander - that was pushed down to the lay members and just hinted at that people were dropped because they were possessed. That was actually worse with people tip toeing around for fear of being reported as saying negative things. They tried to shut down GSC many times directly. They actively excommunicated anyone suspected of posting here.
Now with this group of current clowns you have a “good cop” front and a “bad cop” back. Come on home, except for you group of Corps that challenged the dictatorial structure of the Way leadership and suggested voting and equal voice for all Corps. You guys are mark and avoid.
In the Stanford Prison experiment the population was sorted into “guards” and “prisoners”. I don’t view the Way Corps graduates as the “prisoners” they were the “ruling class”. Yes, it was more likely that ordained clergy acted in the most extreme side of this for the most part. There were very few around like sky for example who were genuine and reasonable and shielding the of the cult culture - they were all mostly puffheaded idiots.
Did I ALWAYS “treat people how I was trained”? That is a way too general bucket. I had leaders in my time in that trained me well and genuinely in the midst of the system. So for those cases that would have been a good thing. I didn’t have anyone tell me BS in the sexual category like VP to LCM. And I treated people according to my conscience and not the rules in many cases. But in the negative cases I remember I did follow a jackass direction as it would have been political suicide not to. And they know who are the gung ho people that will do anything they ask and who aren’t. They promote the former up to the top ranks.
As it progressed on and the number of dropped Corps in fellowships increased their were more attacks on Corps who basically would feel like the non dropped guy were no better than them and so would attack and work to get them dropped. To be fair. So you were constrained from above by Pharisees and attacked from below by hurt people.
Yes God in the midst of this was still Himself and helped me remain sane through it all.
But no I’m not going to excuse myself and others abusing and abused from being enveloped in this system of nonsense and hurting others. Including the ex Corps and clergy here. Even the best behaved and most well intentioned souls.
Godly sorry might be something to consider as well. Paul spoke about the godly sorrow the believers of the Corinthian church had after receiving Paul's first letter to them. Sorrow means to experience deep, emotional pain (sadness), i.e. severe sorrow (grief) which is probably why verse 10 says there's a worldly sorrow that produces death.
2 Cor 7:11 lists how much good came out of their godly sorrow: diligence/earnestness; clearing of yourselves (an apology); indignation/anger; fear/alarm; vehement desire/longing; zeal/concern and revenge/readiness to see justice done.
Paul then says, "In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
It's important to note that the word "guilt" is not used.
This is a really good distinction. Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark.
Some of the AA steps are taken from here. Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice. The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter.
Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness. Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”. Never being clear in the matter.
For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on.
My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.
For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on.
My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.
So true. Personally, I think that the folks (some folks) who say we are beating a dead horse while TWI continues to proselytyze are themselves made uncomfortable by cognitive dissonance and instead of dropping the abusive cult prefer to drop the truth about the abusive cult. Its more comfortable for them that way.
The yelling thing changed after LCM was canned. RFR was way more passive aggressive. Under those Pharisees they would question lock step commitment and shun people from a closed door meeting then never talk about it. Different from LCM who would trash someone from Corps night. This had less overt libel and slander - that was pushed down to the lay members and just hinted at that people were dropped because they were possessed. That was actually worse with people tip toeing around for fear of being reported as saying negative things. They tried to shut down GSC many times directly. They actively excommunicated anyone suspected of posting here.
Man, that woman was a snake in the grass. Ive heard her brag several times in closed settings how so and so was "outFOXED" by her manuevers. Meaning one of her names was Fox, not sure if middle or previous marriage name, but Rosalie Fox Rivenbark operated by proxy and with full counsel by their attorneys on how to be a slick POS. She was a very mean woman who preferred the baseball bat approach but was forced into niceness. I think one of the biggest difference forced legal compliance brought about was working as staff provided a default layer of protection that doesnt apply outside of an employer/employee relationship. So this was extended to the way corps who were paid a salary. The harassment policy is a system of redress that was intended to protect the directors and the organization but it had the unintended consequence of protecting staff from the directors, et. al. I used the harassment policy on the directors after baiting them out to come after me. It ticked off Rosalie so bad that she got bit by her own manuevers that I was kicked out of the cabinet meetings, thankfully....talk about boring...anywho. I was told by a fellow cabinet member that Rosalie went on one heckuva rant in the first cabinet meeting I was booted from because I used their policy against them. Another humorous item is after I started posting here they started requiring non-disclosure agreements of their top leadership assignments. Perhaps that was in place with the directors and perhaps it doesnt apply to cabinet guys but I know it applied to officers and probably directors too. They have seperated office and director responsibilities.
If a someone isn't paid staff and considered a volunteer then all gloves are off. So there is a higher rate of abuse amongst field way corps vs TWI employed way corps.
Man, that woman was a snake in the grass. Ive heard her brag several times in closed settings how so and so was "outFOXED" by her manuevers. Meaning one of her names was Fox, not sure if middle or previous marriage name, but Rosalie Fox Rivenbark operated by proxy and with full counsel by their attorneys on how to be a slick POS. She was a very mean woman who preferred the baseball bat approach but was forced into niceness. I think one of the biggest difference forced legal compliance brought about was working as staff provided a default layer of protection that doesnt apply outside of an employer/employee relationship. So this was extended to the way corps who were paid a salary. The harassment policy is a system of redress that was intended to protect the directors and the organization but it had the unintended consequence of protecting staff from the directors, et. al. I used the harassment policy on the directors after baiting them out to come after me. It ticked off Rosalie so bad that she got bit by her own manuevers that I was kicked out of the cabinet meetings, thankfully....talk about boring...anywho. I was told by a fellow cabinet member that Rosalie went on one heckuva rant in the first cabinet meeting I was booted from because I used their policy against them. Another humorous item is after I started posting here they started requiring non-disclosure agreements of their top leadership assignments. Perhaps that was in place with the directors and perhaps it doesnt apply to cabinet guys but I know it applied to officers and probably directors too. They have seperated office and director responsibilities.
If a someone isn't paid staff and considered a volunteer then all gloves are off. So there is a higher rate of abuse amongst field way corps vs TWI employed way corps.
Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring.
NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution.
”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”.
So, with some deeper perspective..... maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up with a few missteps or zealousness to "do good." Maybe, just maybe.... our tenure in twi has given us greater insight of youthful exuberance carried away by bad counsel. Could it have happened under another Christian organization or business endeavor? Probably. Look how much we gained through our experiences. As Rocky and others like to always point out.... you and I wouldn't be able to help others with insight and guidance had we not taken this pathway in life. We are the sum total of our experiences.
Peace to all.
Yes I am certainly not joining a Franciscan monk order with daily self floggings lol.
The trials of our faith have produced endurance and depth and wisdom.
I see so many of my former friends sucked up into TWI 4 cycle of abuse though. Why can’t they break free? Why have others clung to the false 1942 promise and propped up another abusive group?
Why is it the same lie people tell themselves of research that is not research, teaching meaning a push button DVD and phone hookup, and fellowship only with your group of deluded followers not accepting other groups and initiatives under the body of Christ? Why are people so comfortable with bondage?
I guess if they never experience anything negative and the leaders hide that well they keep the deluded youth engaged and working.
Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring.
NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution.
”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”.
That is what they want.
The truth is not what they want.
My short time on the cabinet and my short run on staff I never saw any efforts to reform, only cover while giving the appearance of reform. I heard Rosalie say on several occasions when it comes to confidential matters (and what isnt confidential with them) "just let them go ahead and speculate" --- which indicates they are fine with people drawing their own conclusions and most people conclude that there was a big reform movement afoot to undo what martindale alone caused. Thats what they wanted people to assume....but there was NEVER a true heart of repentance and never a true heart of change....only whitewash and preservation of what survived the whitewash.
Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring.
NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution.
”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”.
That is what they want.
The truth is not what they want.
Rosalie married shortly after high school (1958) to Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr.
Divorced him and by 1963.... she remarried. Rosalie Fox Shumate.
Divorced James M. Shumate, Jr. in 1970.
Rather than go back to maiden name Rosalie Fox.... she reattached with prominent name, Rivenbark.
This is a really good distinction. Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark.
Some of the AA steps are taken from here. Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice. The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter.
Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness. Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”. Never being clear in the matter.
For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on.
My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.
One of the things twi attempted to do was..... preach 'guilt' even if it was undeserved guilt. They would apply guilt with a broad brush to the corps with a pompous arrogance. I distinctly remember wierwille standing before the corps and stating, "None of you know how to work." As I sat in the audience, I said to myself.... "That's a lie. He has no idea about my life and background." Wierwille had no idea I grew up on a farm and was doing chores, driving the tractor at age 10. Years of hauling alfalfa bales, moving irrigation pipe, wheat harvesting, livestock management, etc.
In my observation, I believe wierwille did this to those guys in Way Production as well. Some of these professional guys had toured with Earth, Wind and Fire. One of the guys composed his own music. Yet, wierwille went to those High Country Caravan rehearsals and touted his "music bona fides." Of course, wierwille was a consummate plagiarist....professional in all that he set his mind to do. LOL
We were subjected constantly to undeserved guilt.... in attempts to motivate us to comply.
OldSkool..... posted in 2003, that link is very telling of Rosalie's secret life.
It seems apropos (fitting) on a thread entitled, "Taking responsibility. A long hard look at ourselves".... to examine the corresponding other side, namely twi-leadership (Rosalie). How open, honest and forthcoming are they on details relating to their lives? What kind of introspection have they done to rectify their mistakes and shortcomings? What relationships have they reconciled or destroyed in their past?
Well, insurgent (a poster on GSC) who worked as an editor in Way Publications and had direct involvement with Rosalie for a number of years tells us her perspective. As an editor, insurgent's precise language is revealing....
Rosalie NEVER talks about her children or family. NEVER. She NEVER talks about the man that she married - then divorced - then remarried - then divorced again.
To the best of my recollections (I may not be accurate, but I think I am), Rosalie has marked and avoided one of her sons.
I can verify Linda Z's remark that Rosalie would have her secretaries tell Dr. Wierwille when he called, that she was out of the office, when in fact she wasn't. That fact is know only by a very few at HQ.
In planning a Way International web site, it became increasingly apparent that one of the main road blocks to the implementation of a web site was the extreme concern on the part of Rosalie Rivenbark that her name and picture might have to be on the Web site.
It was quickly decided that NO pictures of ANY trustees was the best way to go. This was decided in an attempt to keep Rosalie off of the internet.
In talks with certain cabinet people at HQ, it was very apparent that Rosalie was desperate that she not featured on the web site. One cabinet person (who knows Rosalie very well)went as far as to say to me - "we don' t want Rosalie's picture and biographical sketch on the Internet because next thing you know, people will start to research her background, then they'll discover her New Bern, NC. connections and then they'll be nosing into all sorts of stuff" ...
Wierwille was of the same mindset. Not only was wierwille secretive of his past, but he LIED often or fabricated grandiose recollections of the wierwille family. But when it came to the corps.... he wanted us to detail in writing "From Birth to Corps" papers that he and others could read and file away. He encouraged (demanded) that we be as open and candid as possible. Why did he need this information? What does it say about them.... when they demand you reveal private information about yourselves? Same deal with Momentus. How did that go?
Do the Scriptures encourage this? When Jesus met with the woman caught in adultery, did he demand a full accounting of her actions and relationships? No, he ministered to her and told her, "Go and sin no more."
Reminds me of that verse... II Co 4:2 Buthave renouncedthehiddenthingsofdishonesty,notwalkingincraftiness,norhandlingthe wordof Goddeceitfully;butby manifestationof the truthcommendingourselvestoeveryman'sconsciencein the sightof God.
What THEY do, we have renounced. While they walk in craftiness, we do not. When they handle the word of God deceitfully, we open up the truth of God's workings by living openly and righteously in the sight of God.
When religious or cult leaders walk in craftiness, they are also handling the word of God deceitfully. How often have we seen this? The Pharisees were known for their double-standards..... doing one thing in public, yet privately doing another. Open rebuke at the pulpit, yet sinning in the privacy of their own lives.
Why does this deception escape one's discernment? Could it be that adulation and/or idolization has impaired this discernment? How could clergy and corps grads follow Rosalie's leadership for 17 years after Martindale's ouster? It nearly boggles the mind to see how many years it takes to untangle the web of lies and cult indoctrination once it takes hold. This indoctrination is cancerous.
And, true to form... it always seems to follow the same patterns. The religious/cult leader likes to KEEP THE SPOTLIGHT ON YOU.... while s/he hides in the shadows. They like to keep on the offense.... reframing the Scriptures to impose fear, guilt and confusion. That's why their sermons become dead, because there is no living epistle to speak of. They have succumbed to "deadness" inside. I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation. Yet, several days later.... no reply. Was this person serious? What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area? Nothing more forthcoming? Crickets.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
21
19
10
Popular Days
Mar 20
17
Mar 15
12
Mar 16
12
Mar 17
12
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 18 posts
Rocky 21 posts
chockfull 19 posts
OldSkool 10 posts
Popular Days
Mar 20 2023
17 posts
Mar 15 2023
12 posts
Mar 16 2023
12 posts
Mar 17 2023
12 posts
Popular Posts
skyrider
This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden thing
Charity
Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts, I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced c
chockfull
I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate.
OldSkool
This is the case for me seeing that Im an eyewitness of the white washing and such that went into hyper drive with theh Allen lawsuit and ensuing coverup. It seems many of us here were exposed to a lot of evils first hand and to expose it is how not to be culpable.
Then theres the fact that becoming overly-judgemental of my own life is something I learned in the way international. So, obviously, I tossed that idea after leaving TWI to my own detriment. We should take heed to ourselves that we stand or fall but we don't even have the right to judge ourselves because we are bought with a price and our lives are not our own. Cool stuff everyone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate. The Way’s version of that reality is a “lifetime of Christian service” as a label, but the details of that are becoming a yes-man to Pharisees who make policy to make life easier for themselves and harder for those that follow them. And to tiptoe around in fear of saying anything critical for fear of excommunication.
That is not a lifetime of Christian service. That is a lifetime of Pharisee service and self service.
So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system. How do I resolve those two ? Human nature is to make up a story where I am a hero. Whether true or not.
But the truth of the matter is the corrupt system hurt and enslaved many. And I was “sold out” to the system and didn’t really consider that some people would bait and switch my genuine desire to replace with absolute compliance to “the system”.
One analogy has been the role of a prison guard. These roles can be assumed very quickly as the Stanford prison experiment showed. The Way Corps was a larger scale Stanford Prison Experiment that produces a new set of prison guards every year, helping to perpetuate the prison experiment lifestyle.
A ruling class and a governed class. Both classes constructed on blind obedience and trust. This is a recipe for a cult. The pattern can get really bad like the Heavens Gate group and the Jonestown group. In TWI sometimes you had benevolent prison guards who treated the prisoners well. With my genuine heart and desire I fulfilled that pattern most of the time. But I was bound to follow orders and beat the prisoners other times.
So do I want to invent a history where I was the hero to myself and everyone around me? I don’t. I feel that would be lying to myself and everyone around. I would rather try and view from an objective perspective and highlight the scam that started the prison experiment.
Was God there through it all? Yes always. Did I see His hand in my life in the midst of this? Yes. To me to be true to God I tell the truth now. Thankfully my family hasn’t shunned me and I am able to rebuild some bridges. That’s not true for others who were victims of shunning and whose families are entangled still. These are very real ongoing problems. The gap between the whole body of Christ functioning together and a bunch of Pharisees isolating a “household of God” subject to lock step compliance is huge.
To me telling the truth is more important than my ego to reinvent the path I traveled. Let me be an average Christian in an average church doing average good works over being some hot shot who posts his resume on the net about how they saved the world through the greatness of their “yes ma’am”.
We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them. As Stanford prison guards. Not some anointed version of a fake clergy with a golden calf VP statue and an oversized ego. Not saying that is you sky. You have a genuine heart to help others and serve. Your insights are articulate and balanced. You help a lot of people here. I’m sure you helped people you led also in TWI. So did I and yes I have memories of some great snapshots that God helped energize when I was in also.
Just trying to tell the truth and catalyze more freedom for myself and others. And the truth about TWI is to look at the putrid fruit brought about by their Pharisee systems and activities.
I would rather have one day of freedom than 10 years of recognition of being a really important person in a prison experiment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Indeed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Oftentimes, if and when I get overly-critical of my involvement in this pseudo-Christian outfit that morphed into a cult.... I remind myself that God looks on the heart. He knows our longings, our desires, our inner thoughts. So, with that.... I thank Him for His grace and mercy and move on.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
God looks on the heart. Jesus instructs to examine by the fruit.
What is “overly critical” about following Jesus instructions? Even toward our own historical path?
We all are struggling with the cognitive dissonance of our genuine hearts being turned to serve a corrupt system.
I also am thankful for Gods grace and mercy and have moved on. Doctrinally and practically.
Psalm 23 is mine.
Part of moving on is telling the truth. If it is not why post here at all? Why not just move on? To me it is because to truly serve Jesus Christ I have a duty to tell the truth to help others from the same snare.
I mean how did you handle believers who came to you asking about the dilemma between a mortgage and the Advanced Class? Well or no?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I didn’t learn to be overly judgmental of my life in TWI. Exactly the opposite. I was Corps fulfilling Gods calling. I was walking by revelation. I was following the directives laid out in the household.
When did I become “overly judgmental” of my life? When I was shunned and manipulated and gaslighted to believe the negative things the Pharisees told me.
So what did I do? Sought out a second opinion. And told the first group and their opinion to pound sand.
I guess in a topic entitled “taking responsibility and a long hard look at yourself” this would not be the thread where I am focusing on the sonship rights from the blue book.
It would be more where I do the hard work to sort out my culpability in past endeavors.
Sorry sometimes words come out really direct I’m not trying to confront anyone I am trying to tell my truth.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yes, pound sand. I took the same path and refused to harbor any guilt whatsoever. My heart was right with God and I claimed it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yeah that’s a good point - harboring guilt is just another form of bondage that is a secondary impact.
It is a fine line for me honestly evaluating and yet moving on and holding fast to the good and living as a son of God.
You are right on in that imagery. What ship am I allowing to dock at my dock and live in my harbor?
TWIs desire is for that to be a whitewash ship. And to “come on home to where the Word is”.
My path currently is to light a Chinese junk on fire and sail it into the ammo supplies and blow it up.
Maybe I’m too far leaning to one side on this. Maybe we shouldn’t blow up the ammo because we need it for hunting.
Yes I see Gods hand on my life protecting through the insanity and providing a table in the presence of my enemies. That is truth also.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Godly sorry might be something to consider as well. Paul spoke about the godly sorrow the believers of the Corinthian church had after receiving Paul's first letter to them. Sorrow means to experience deep, emotional pain (sadness), i.e. severe sorrow (grief) which is probably why verse 10 says there's a worldly sorrow that produces death.
2 Cor 7:11 lists how much good came out of their godly sorrow: diligence/earnestness; clearing of yourselves (an apology); indignation/anger; fear/alarm; vehement desire/longing; zeal/concern and revenge/readiness to see justice done.
Paul then says, "In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
It's important to note that the word "guilt" is not used.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Here's another thing we may not have grasped fully in twi: paradox.
Two or more contradictory things might both be true at the same time.
In my 60s, I can see how I have some wisdom I didn't have, especially between the ages of 19 and 31.
We submitted ourselves (at least I did) to someone I now believe was teaching things by word and deed which were wrong a lot.
How and why did I obtain such wisdom, if I did at all?
I think of Romans 5.
"we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."
Suffering? In the Gospel of John, doesn't Jesus tell us that in this world we will have trouble. Pressure? Stress? Make mistakes perhaps? (Many of them). But in Him we can have comfort and peace.
Going through such experiences produces, if we are humble, a depth of understanding (including to correct our "path" or conduct) and wisdom. Wisdom comes by making mistakes and learning from them... rather than steadfastly believing we weren't on the wrong path to begin with, perhaps.
Yeah, I use the word perhaps quite a bit. I'm not as certain about things now as I was 40 years ago.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
I disagree.
Maybe some corps treated people the way they were trained.... but I would venture to say that 85-90% of the corps did NOT do that. You have to acknowledge that our corps training was over-the-top confrontational and obedient training. I highly doubt whether this "style" of leadership was effective on the field. In fact, we were warned to NOT use these tactics on believers. THIS WAS TRAINING.... not a how-to hand guide for running fellowship.
In my experience, those who applied these hard-hitting tactics might rise to the region coordinator level.... where they are tasked with "keeping the coal shoveled into the locomotive engines" of each limb in their region. In other words, most all their confrontation was leveled at limb coordinators. With all the levels of subordination and activity, a hard-nosed leader could justify his confrontations in a number of ways. Sure, there were instances of abusive leaders, and those who committed such acts should seek or have sought forgiveness. But I have come to believe that there were a number of narcissists who liked this power over others and have little or no empathy for the abuse they caused.
Whereas, those who sit in seats of power at headquarters were culpable of this abuse as well. Wierwille could do his on-stage "you're the best" routine, but behind the scenes he wielded the power over the corps training. He signed off on these tactics. It is known here at GSC that wierwille was the instigator behind TFI (Total Fitness Institute), the super-charged LEAD training in California (TFI, the predecessor of LEAD). Corps were put in large refrigerator boxes late at night to simulate a POW-scenario... where loud music was blared and provocateurs beat on the sides of these boxes with clubs. Martindale tried to lead a revolt and failed miserably. Maybe, that's where these early corps coordinators came up with abuse tactics.
One one occasion in the 9th/7th corps training, George Hendley the corps coordinator felt it a need to summon all corps on a Sunday evening to put on their corps sweats and meet him in the back 40. George was an old football jock who prided himself on his discipline to calisthenics. So, when we gathered he had each branch assembled together and doing basic jumping jacks, push-ups, leg-lifts, etc. (anyone who played football knows these exercises). Well, the more we ran-in-place.... the soft soil oozed with a muddy patch of glob. As we did push-ups, the girls started complaining that their hair was getting all muddy. The situation continued to escalate for another 40 minutes or so.... with confrontations leveled at certain branch leaders. When it all ended, many of us ran back to our dorm showers and just stepped into those showers with sweats and all to wash away the mud and another confrontation episode.
All of this definitely had aspects of the Stanford Prison Experiment in years to come, but the majority of corps fell on the side of the abused. So, you are correct that some corps imitated the corps training tactics.... but it is incorrect to implicate the majority. Some of us knew all-too-well how it felt to be the recipient of scathing confrontation and we didn't like or justify it one bit.
Edited by skyridertypos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I was one of the ones who mostly shielded field followers from HQ bs. I stood up for them in meetings upward and spoke against extreme punishment or tactics or shunning.
I also knew people who tried to recreate the Corps environment on the field. This was 180 degrees different than how we led people. We always had others propped up in leadership unlike the example shown us. We didn’t institute “mini Corps programs” in fellowships like many Corps grads I saw doing.
Yet I still remember very distinctly being directly instructed to yell at particular people, with an unspoken threat for non compliance - from more than one region coordinator . And other various Stanford prison types of “assignments” to “check something out” from hq.
I never have and never will justify my complicity in this system and actions under direct instruction and duress not just modeling.
The yelling thing changed after LCM was canned. RFR was way more passive aggressive. Under those Pharisees they would question lock step commitment and shun people from a closed door meeting then never talk about it. Different from LCM who would trash someone from Corps night. This had less overt libel and slander - that was pushed down to the lay members and just hinted at that people were dropped because they were possessed. That was actually worse with people tip toeing around for fear of being reported as saying negative things. They tried to shut down GSC many times directly. They actively excommunicated anyone suspected of posting here.
Now with this group of current clowns you have a “good cop” front and a “bad cop” back. Come on home, except for you group of Corps that challenged the dictatorial structure of the Way leadership and suggested voting and equal voice for all Corps. You guys are mark and avoid.
In the Stanford Prison experiment the population was sorted into “guards” and “prisoners”. I don’t view the Way Corps graduates as the “prisoners” they were the “ruling class”. Yes, it was more likely that ordained clergy acted in the most extreme side of this for the most part. There were very few around like sky for example who were genuine and reasonable and shielding the of the cult culture - they were all mostly puffheaded idiots.
Did I ALWAYS “treat people how I was trained”? That is a way too general bucket. I had leaders in my time in that trained me well and genuinely in the midst of the system. So for those cases that would have been a good thing. I didn’t have anyone tell me BS in the sexual category like VP to LCM. And I treated people according to my conscience and not the rules in many cases. But in the negative cases I remember I did follow a jackass direction as it would have been political suicide not to. And they know who are the gung ho people that will do anything they ask and who aren’t. They promote the former up to the top ranks.
As it progressed on and the number of dropped Corps in fellowships increased their were more attacks on Corps who basically would feel like the non dropped guy were no better than them and so would attack and work to get them dropped. To be fair. So you were constrained from above by Pharisees and attacked from below by hurt people.
Yes God in the midst of this was still Himself and helped me remain sane through it all.
But no I’m not going to excuse myself and others abusing and abused from being enveloped in this system of nonsense and hurting others. Including the ex Corps and clergy here. Even the best behaved and most well intentioned souls.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
This is a really good distinction. Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark.
Some of the AA steps are taken from here. Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice. The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter.
Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness. Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”. Never being clear in the matter.
For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on.
My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
So true. Personally, I think that the folks (some folks) who say we are beating a dead horse while TWI continues to proselytyze are themselves made uncomfortable by cognitive dissonance and instead of dropping the abusive cult prefer to drop the truth about the abusive cult. Its more comfortable for them that way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Man, that woman was a snake in the grass. Ive heard her brag several times in closed settings how so and so was "outFOXED" by her manuevers. Meaning one of her names was Fox, not sure if middle or previous marriage name, but Rosalie Fox Rivenbark operated by proxy and with full counsel by their attorneys on how to be a slick POS. She was a very mean woman who preferred the baseball bat approach but was forced into niceness. I think one of the biggest difference forced legal compliance brought about was working as staff provided a default layer of protection that doesnt apply outside of an employer/employee relationship. So this was extended to the way corps who were paid a salary. The harassment policy is a system of redress that was intended to protect the directors and the organization but it had the unintended consequence of protecting staff from the directors, et. al. I used the harassment policy on the directors after baiting them out to come after me. It ticked off Rosalie so bad that she got bit by her own manuevers that I was kicked out of the cabinet meetings, thankfully....talk about boring...anywho. I was told by a fellow cabinet member that Rosalie went on one heckuva rant in the first cabinet meeting I was booted from because I used their policy against them. Another humorous item is after I started posting here they started requiring non-disclosure agreements of their top leadership assignments. Perhaps that was in place with the directors and perhaps it doesnt apply to cabinet guys but I know it applied to officers and probably directors too. They have seperated office and director responsibilities.
If a someone isn't paid staff and considered a volunteer then all gloves are off. So there is a higher rate of abuse amongst field way corps vs TWI employed way corps.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring.
NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution.
”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”.
That is what they want.
The truth is not what they want.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Yes I am certainly not joining a Franciscan monk order with daily self floggings lol.
The trials of our faith have produced endurance and depth and wisdom.
I see so many of my former friends sucked up into TWI 4 cycle of abuse though. Why can’t they break free? Why have others clung to the false 1942 promise and propped up another abusive group?
Why is it the same lie people tell themselves of research that is not research, teaching meaning a push button DVD and phone hookup, and fellowship only with your group of deluded followers not accepting other groups and initiatives under the body of Christ? Why are people so comfortable with bondage?
I guess if they never experience anything negative and the leaders hide that well they keep the deluded youth engaged and working.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
My short time on the cabinet and my short run on staff I never saw any efforts to reform, only cover while giving the appearance of reform. I heard Rosalie say on several occasions when it comes to confidential matters (and what isnt confidential with them) "just let them go ahead and speculate" --- which indicates they are fine with people drawing their own conclusions and most people conclude that there was a big reform movement afoot to undo what martindale alone caused. Thats what they wanted people to assume....but there was NEVER a true heart of repentance and never a true heart of change....only whitewash and preservation of what survived the whitewash.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Rosalie married shortly after high school (1958) to Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr.
Divorced him and by 1963.... she remarried. Rosalie Fox Shumate.
Divorced James M. Shumate, Jr. in 1970.
Rather than go back to maiden name Rosalie Fox.... she reattached with prominent name, Rivenbark.
Rosalie F. Shumate
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
One of the things twi attempted to do was..... preach 'guilt' even if it was undeserved guilt. They would apply guilt with a broad brush to the corps with a pompous arrogance. I distinctly remember wierwille standing before the corps and stating, "None of you know how to work." As I sat in the audience, I said to myself.... "That's a lie. He has no idea about my life and background." Wierwille had no idea I grew up on a farm and was doing chores, driving the tractor at age 10. Years of hauling alfalfa bales, moving irrigation pipe, wheat harvesting, livestock management, etc.
In my observation, I believe wierwille did this to those guys in Way Production as well. Some of these professional guys had toured with Earth, Wind and Fire. One of the guys composed his own music. Yet, wierwille went to those High Country Caravan rehearsals and touted his "music bona fides." Of course, wierwille was a consummate
plagiarist....professional in all that he set his mind to do. LOLWe were subjected constantly to undeserved guilt.... in attempts to motivate us to comply.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Lookie what I unearthed...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
OldSkool..... posted in 2003, that link is very telling of Rosalie's secret life.
It seems apropos (fitting) on a thread entitled, "Taking responsibility. A long hard look at ourselves".... to examine the corresponding other side, namely twi-leadership (Rosalie). How open, honest and forthcoming are they on details relating to their lives? What kind of introspection have they done to rectify their mistakes and shortcomings? What relationships have they reconciled or destroyed in their past?
Well, insurgent (a poster on GSC) who worked as an editor in Way Publications and had direct involvement with Rosalie for a number of years tells us her perspective. As an editor, insurgent's precise language is revealing....
Rosalie NEVER talks about her children or family. NEVER. She NEVER talks about the man that she married - then divorced - then remarried - then divorced again.
To the best of my recollections (I may not be accurate, but I think I am), Rosalie has marked and avoided one of her sons.
I can verify Linda Z's remark that Rosalie would have her secretaries tell Dr. Wierwille when he called, that she was out of the office, when in fact she wasn't. That fact is know only by a very few at HQ.
In planning a Way International web site, it became increasingly apparent that one of the main road blocks to the implementation of a web site was the extreme concern on the part of Rosalie Rivenbark that her name and picture might have to be on the Web site.
It was quickly decided that NO pictures of ANY trustees was the best way to go. This was decided in an attempt to keep Rosalie off of the internet.
In talks with certain cabinet people at HQ, it was very apparent that Rosalie was desperate that she not featured on the web site. One cabinet person (who knows Rosalie very well)went as far as to say to me - "we don' t want Rosalie's picture and biographical sketch on the Internet because next thing you know, people will start to research her background, then they'll discover her New Bern, NC. connections and then they'll be nosing into all sorts of stuff" ...
Wierwille was of the same mindset. Not only was wierwille secretive of his past, but he LIED often or fabricated grandiose recollections of the wierwille family. But when it came to the corps.... he wanted us to detail in writing "From Birth to Corps" papers that he and others could read and file away. He encouraged (demanded) that we be as open and candid as possible. Why did he need this information? What does it say about them.... when they demand you reveal private information about yourselves? Same deal with Momentus. How did that go?
Do the Scriptures encourage this? When Jesus met with the woman caught in adultery, did he demand a full accounting of her actions and relationships? No, he ministered to her and told her, "Go and sin no more."
Reminds me of that verse... II Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
What THEY do, we have renounced. While they walk in craftiness, we do not. When they handle the word of God deceitfully, we open up the truth of God's workings by living openly and righteously in the sight of God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
When religious or cult leaders walk in craftiness, they are also handling the word of God deceitfully. How often have we seen this? The Pharisees were known for their double-standards..... doing one thing in public, yet privately doing another. Open rebuke at the pulpit, yet sinning in the privacy of their own lives.
Why does this deception escape one's discernment? Could it be that adulation and/or idolization has impaired this discernment? How could clergy and corps grads follow Rosalie's leadership for 17 years after Martindale's ouster? It nearly boggles the mind to see how many years it takes to untangle the web of lies and cult indoctrination once it takes hold. This indoctrination is cancerous.
And, true to form... it always seems to follow the same patterns. The religious/cult leader likes to KEEP THE SPOTLIGHT ON YOU.... while s/he hides in the shadows. They like to keep on the offense.... reframing the Scriptures to impose fear, guilt and confusion. That's why their sermons become dead, because there is no living epistle to speak of. They have succumbed to "deadness" inside. I find it intriguing that a drive-by poster tells us how s/he took a "long hard look at herself/himself" and wanted to start this conversation. Yet, several days later.... no reply. Was this person serious? What did we learn about MarieP that would give her credibility in this area? Nothing more forthcoming? Crickets.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
annio
YES! Thank you much!!! Well spoken. And I sooooo appreciate ALL of the aboves!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.