I can only speak for myself. I have stated many times that I regret having led people into that horrible mess and have apologized many times, as well. Beyond that, there is not much I can really do.
All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'.
Who was the trainer?
Why did you have to have righteous anger? And how does that justify mistreating others?
Can one be righteously angry without behaving like a sadistic a$$hole?
Righteous anger is another one of those nonsensical ideas that has no real valid meaning. It's simply a self deluded justification people used to excuse unacceptable, irrational reactions and behavior.
Righteous anger is another one of those nonsensical ideas that has no real valid meaning. It's simply a self deluded justification people used to excuse unacceptable, irrational reactions and behavior.
Righteous anger is another one of those nonsensical ideas that has no real valid meaning. It's simply a self deluded justification people used to excuse unacceptable, irrational reactions and behavior.
Righteous anger is wayspeak for rationalizing a certain kind of behavior which does not comport with The Great Commandments, sadly.
Who was the trainer? [Beside any valid point at this time]
Why did you have to have righteous anger? [If a way corpse member didn't s/he would be deemed disobedient and subject to harsh reproof and correction] And how does that justify mistreating others? [In truth, it didn't. In twi's ungodly unwritten codes of conduct, it did.]
Can one be righteously angry without behaving like a sadistic a$$hole? [That's a philosophical question which I believe cannot be answered cogently in a forum like GSC. IOW, if it's a rhetorical question, BRAVO. If not, oh well.]
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctrinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage.
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowship for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
In reflection on my time at GSC, I believe you will find a good bit of self-awareness of that very notion in threads on GSC. For one to be willing to do so, s/he must be personally resilient and willing to be vulnerable, which I believe is an indication strong character. I have expressed my regret and remorse over how I handled my marriage, divorce and child raising. I'm thankful for God's mercy. As to the book to which you refer, depending on whether it's a memoir or a journalistic style exposé, I appreciate your take on it. It takes guts to acknowledge what you did about yourself. I hope you got/get a lot out of the book beyond second guessing the author.
Yeah. It’s rhetorical. Like so many of my questions.
Here are a few other rhetorical questions that can’t nor should be answered here:
When it comes to spiritual matters or that which is eternal or that which has no name, why are we so eager to be taught, to be trained? What does it mean to be taught? What does it mean to teach? Who is the teacher?
When it comes to spiritual matters or that which is eternal or that which has no name, why are we so eager to be taught, to be trained? What does it mean to be taught? What does it mean to teach? Who is the teacher?
Proverbs 2: 1-5 come to mind.
My son,if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of theLord and find the knowledge of God.
Some of those conditions are internal, attitude kind of things. But "search for it as for hidden treasure" seems to me to be more tangible, outward effort/action. In this context, readings the research of sociologists and psychologists who focus on cult related matters, for example.
I don't believe every single poster we've ever had, or even every one we have now, has answered all the hard questions, but I think most of the GSC survivors have made it through.
Did most of us get some kind of benefit while in twi? Most of us got SOMETHING, otherwise we would have left (everyone except the kids who were stuck in because their families were in.) Once again, I'm glad i got IN, and I'm glad I got OUT.
Most of us understand now that twi was neither a safe nor healthy place or experience. We were hurt by people- not the least of it by being taught how to hurt other people (inside or outside twi) and being told that's what God wanted. So, whether we meant well or not, people got hurt, not the least of which were ourselves.
Most of us will never have a chance to apologize to every single person we hurt, accidentally or otherwise. We will need to deal with the inconvenient truth that we did so regardless, and that they deserve an apology. It's healthy to reach a moment, IMHO, where one wants to apologize to God for one's failings in that regard. We meant to do well, and we hurt people and disobeyed anyway. One way or another, we all need to accept that's part of our past, especially if we want to stop hurting people in the present. (After all, one common response to having been hurt in the past is to lash out in the present and try to hurt others.)
I don't think authors who write about the dangers of twi mean to suggest those who were in twi, including ourselves, weren't responsible at SOME level when we were in. The FIRST questions and topics are how twi was/is dangerous. Later topics include what we did as part of twi. One can't address that at all if one's still skipping around, saying that twi started out as a wonderful place that lcm came along and ruined. (Or worse, saying it's always been ok and is still ok.)
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'.
MarieP..... thank you for your post and I hope you stick around a bit. So often, we read these kinds of posts and the poster never seems to return to follow up on a conversation that s/he started.
The Way Ministry, and specifically the way corps training, presented a conundrum for many of us. We were often told that this was "training" and not how to treat our fellow believers in fellowship. After all, there was strong confrontation in the way corps to drive home the concepts of obedience and faithfulness, but for those who kept to scripture the confrontations were less impactful.
Here at GreaseSpot, there have been several threads started on how way corps deemed it their responsibility TO PROTECT their fellowships FROM martindale and upper-tier leadership. I do not believe we were justified in having 'righteous anger'..... guess I never bought into that concept even while in twi. In fact, a discerning person (ie - way corps) didn't have to mimic this over-the-top behavior by some leadership. Throughout my experience in corps, as a corps grad, and in leadership roles.... I can easily say that what you describe was not true for every corps grad. But if the shoe fits... wear it.
I believe all of us will give an account of our actions. Have I taken a long hard look at what I did? Yes, and I believe that most of my actions fall on the good side of the ledger. I don't know if the 80-20 rule applies in this situation, but I would suggest that lots of corps went into the corps training to serve others not badger them with daily confrontation. Remember, quite often.... corps coordinators were confronting one person's attitude or behavior in a room full of 300+ individuals who did NOTHING WRONG. How does one extrapolate this information? Should we wield 'righteous anger' in our branch fellowships when only one person misbehaves? No. We should find time to pull that person aside and teach them why their behavior/actions were out of order. That's loving and proper in the context of teaching someone scriptural integrity not just twi "righteous anger protocol."
Some of us have been at this website for 20 years and have discussed these issues over and over again. Yet, in the past 20-30 years.... has twi leadership changed their methods? Nope. They carry on in the same mode as wierwille did back in the '70's. Who holds the greater sin? Those of us who've repented and helped others to see the errors in twi's teachings or the hierarchy at headquarters? I fully understand your point in "taking a hard look at ourselves" in this matter. Well, that's what we've been doing for 20+ years here at GSC.
I hope you stick around and further this conversation. If you disappear after starting this thread, then it speaks for itself. Engaging conversation is a very healthy way forward for all of us.
I fully understand your point in "taking a hard look at ourselves" in this matter. Well, that's what we've been doing for 20+ years here at GSC.
I hope you stick around and further this conversation. If you disappear after starting this thread, then it speaks for itself. Engaging conversation is a very healthy way forward for all of us.
Peace to all.
Btw, from a philosophical perspective, I agree with your point on who holds the greater sin. On a personal level, however, I don't necessarily want to compare whose sins are greater or lesser.
Nevertheless, Brother Skyrider, I very much appreciate, agree on, and relate to the heartfelt reflection in your two posts/comments this evening.
And MarieP, I too encourage you to stick around and continue the conversation.
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage.
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage.
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
Welcome to Grease Spot, MarieP - that is a very revealing post. After I left TWI I began to realize that I had gotten into the habit of relating to others in a very artificial way - and it was insulating me from any meaningful exchanges. I’d use ministry jargon and push TWI’s agenda and figured if anyone didn’t like it then that was too bad for them.
I lost a lot of friends when I left - but I’m learning to be myself , and allow my wife and kids the freedom to be themselves. Not a part of someone else’s exploitative agenda. I can still be the world’s biggest a$$-hole sometimes - but as a family we’re a forgiving bunch - and it no longer revolves around the ministry.
Btw, from a philosophical perspective, I agree with your point on who holds the greater sin. On a personal level, however, I don't necessarily want to compare whose sins are greater or lesser.
Nevertheless, Brother Skyrider, I very much appreciate, agree on, and relate to the heartfelt reflection in your two posts/comments this evening.
And MarieP, I too encourage you to stick around and continue the conversation.
Yeah, Rocky.... we've been coming to GreaseSpot for 20+ years and there are lots of posts on introspection, the self-examination of our thoughts and actions while in twi. Yes, wierwille and martindale were "pulling levers of power over us," but it's the response to these situations that expose our character. What a person does in the quiet moments of their lives when no one is looking exhibits character. It was quite clear to me that those who relished in confrontations were advanced forward to higher leadership, ie region coordinators. But there were also good-hearted men and women who were positioned into leadership roles, because of damage control. In other words, the previous leader had stirred up so much ill-will and conflict that he was no longer effective in ministering to the needs in the area... and new leadership was needed.
Like any group of people.... you can NOT paint the whole group with the same brush.
The way corps certainly had its share of bad-a$$ people, because of the corps training environment. Some actually referred to some of these individuals as "Nazi-corps." Those were the crazy-agitators.... always looking for the things to confront. You know, the chair-stringing fanatic that wants to make sure that every chair is exactly aligned. Or, the flowers near the podium had to be a certain height. Or, the mints in the teacher's podium had to broken into three separate pieces for the teacher to use. Legalism in a box tied with a bow.
"When I exited twi in 1998, one of the first things I did was resolve to hold no sign of guilt. Why should I hold any guilt over my own head and heart? After all, THEY were the deceivers, the hucksters, the opportunists living off my sacrifice to serve twi. Yet, guilt is one of their many weapons. With incremental steps, each class gives them, they think, more access to govern our decisions and life. Remember.....having finished the advanced class, twi sent out a form letter stating to the grad that, now, he/she 'owed his life to the ministry.'"
"One is quickly able to put twi's leadership at arms-length from any more encroachment the minute the weapon of guilt is removed!! With luminous clarity and serenity, one begins to see that twi holds NO POWER over you unless you allow it. Certainly, untangling this whole mess is a process.... but, for me, the beginning step was removing this guilt-weapon from further attacks on my conscience."
Wierwille used guilt often at night owls and in his corps letters. He knew corps grads were distancing themselves from their corps indoctrination. It became more apparent with each passing year.
That's why "taking a long hard look at ourselves" is SO VITAL. This introspection, with others here at GSC, help us to see the blind spots that we might have in our own lives. Together, we discuss and banter back-and-forth these elements and principles. And, it is a process that TAKES TIME. Not just by reading one book and then saying "a-ha" I now know what to do. And it goes without saying that I hope MarieP returns to this conversation.... because it does take time to sort through the process.
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage.
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
Hey Marie thx for your heartfelt sharing and deep introspection. To start out first yes I absolutely realize and take accountability for my actions which definitely hurt others. I was literally told to yell at people by higher leaders. Yes that is sick. Yes I did it because I was duped. Yes I bear the responsibility for the sin of “following orders” just like all the Nazi prison camp operators.
The “Way Corps” is a multi tiered Pharisee organization. Like the masons or any other secret indoctrination program people advance through tiers by sacrificing morals at every turn.
I am so sorry for the lost time in relationships with your parents and siblings. I also experienced similar distancing from people who loved me due to my choices. I have been able to repair and recover some relationships. Others I lost. The time was too long and it was too late for that window of opportunity. I experience sorrow due to this like you.
In reality abusive and corrupt systems trap the follower into a cycle of abuse where the victim becomes the abuser. It is not easy to break these cycles regardless of where you are at in the cycle. I can only say I have resolved to not become an abuser like I have in the past. And to teach and speak against it.
Yes some of the non sanctioned Way International history books contain a telling of the story from the victim perspective. And probably the authors have also grown to avoid the personal abuse cycle also.
But victim blaming is evil and it is wrapped up completely in PFAL teachings on “the law of believing” so I’m not going to judge victims.
Thanks for sharing and hope you stay for a coffee and a donut lol.
Why did you have to have righteous anger? And how does that justify mistreating others?
Can one be righteously angry without behaving like a sadistic a$$hole?
The words “righteous anger” were taught and modeled. The pressure to confirm was real. No it does not justify.
Anger over a just cause should not cause sadistic actions. Because I was in a warped cult I evaluate it according to a “average” or “reasonable” person would react. If one of my calmer friends is worked up it catches my attention. Other than that I think “righteous anger” especially in context of excusing being a grade a petulant arsehole is 100 % false and 100 % an excuse.
I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage.
Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.
Hi and nice to meet you. For the longest time I justified my time as way corps as "fine" because I never abused people and came along right after Martindale left so I wasn't there for his reign of terror I wasn't perfect but I genuinely did all I could to help people.
Then as time went forward I took a fresh look at my involvement in TWI and way corps all that. I felt strongly convicted for being part of it all and especially for teaching the errors they promulgate. So, yes, I literally dropped on my knees and asked the Lord's forgiveness. I have also forgiven those in twi for the wrongs done on me and my family. I have no bitterness left and post here as a warning to others...both doctrinally and practically. It's my way of making amends, not that I need to offer anything else to Christ's redeeming work, but it's me bringing forth fruit meets for repentance. Cheers!
Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising
I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p:
1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power.
2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully.
3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them.
4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself.
5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time.
Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising
I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p:
1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power.
2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully.
3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them.
4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself.
5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time.
Thank you reading!! Onward!
Thanks for being so candid. Very inspiring, very inspiring. I can relate to God's compassion and love shining through and melting that tough outer shell some of us tend to develop. I guess for me I dont really take the flight method when engaged; I tend to fight even when theres nothing left to fight about. Just part of my human weakness really, not something Im proud of, ashamed really...but my point is this is an area of my life that Ive been addressing pretty heavily the past few months. A fellow GSC compadre has helped me to understand that my background and upbringing taught me to go from 0 to 150 as a survival mechanism. So for the longest there hasnt been a rational side of me once provoked. Its truly taken God's love and compassion to melt that calloused shell of mine and Im making genuine strides at temperance and controlling my anger and preferring not to fight, well unless no choice remains...but how often is that truly necessary? It helps to see others because you remind me that Im not alone and others are in the same struggles. Ditto on forgiving them, and I have. It took a while because when I first left TWI I checked out and was courted by three off shoots and they all were so adamant that I forgive wierwille, and others. At the time, and even still to a degree, I feel that their motivations were to keep the gravy train rolling with the same, but altered doctrines that wierwille taught. Over time though I recognized that I was hanging on to an excuse, even if the excuse was true in cases. Really, it feels good to have dropped the baggage and bitterness I used to carry. I feel like Frodo after he realized that the ring was truly gone....relieved and breathing fresh air.
Cool perspective all the way across but point 5 is new to me and has my wheels turning. Thanks again!
I don't think authors who write about the dangers of twi mean to suggest those who were in twi, including ourselves, weren't responsible at SOME level when we were in. The FIRST questions and topics are how twi was/is dangerous. Later topics include what we did as part of twi. One can't address that at all if one's still skipping around, saying that twi started out as a wonderful place that lcm came along and ruined. (Or worse, saying it's always been ok and is still ok.)
Yeah this is a biggie. It literally was an extremely hard hurdle for me to get honest about. I was there front and center when martindale became the fall guy for doing what VPW taught him to do. Then once I left it took a while to understand my culpability, and gullibility as way corps and rising into the top leadership ranks working for the dorectors first hand. I literally thought I was in the center of God's will....wrong...and the congnitive dissonance was tough to navigate. Eventually I came to understand my part in the matter and of course asked for forgiveness. Its a tough pill to swallow. I kinda feel for the offshoot guys because they are convinced they are right and wierwille was a great mogfodat. Its tougher to unplug from the matrix when your lively hood is at stake. I mean, I made the choice to re-enter the workforce instead of living off donations that werent for me in the first place and that in itself was a tough pill to swallow. Its humbling to say the least.
Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts,
I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced class and led both adult and children fellowships. I too taught the law of believing and the great principle about how we operate the spirit of God. I spoke of what Jesus accomplished for us but failed to speak of the joy and power that having an actual relationship with Christ brings (because I didn't even know about it myself).
My greatest regret is for all the hurting people I talked with and my main answer to their pain was to take pfal. I did not love them with the love of God. I’d faithfully share John 10:10 with them but not Luke 4:18 where Jesus defines the abundant life he came to give to people. I had more faith in a class than I had in the spirit of God working in me to minister to someone’s needs. I've confessed to God of how sad and feeble of a Christian I was to them.
I think it speaks of your relationship with God, Annio, that you were able to show compassion for the abusers and forgive them. I wonder though, why it is often harder for us to accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves? Understanding the role I played in what went on around me in twi and sorting through my feelings about the role leadership played in messing things up spiritually is important to do. But when I consciously or subconsciously added into this mix past traumas and insecurities I had before I even knew of twi, figuring things out became more complicated and confusing.
One last thing, if at times who I thought I was and what I thought I had while in twi was based on following man made doctrine and not the truth of God’s Word, realizing the worthlessness of it all was a hard pill to swallow. So was the realization that the “issues” from my past which I thought were gone had really only been covered over because a cult like twi cannot bring deliverance nor healing.
It’s all been a lot to deal with but for me the answer has been to go back to Luke 4:18 and get to know Christ personally so he can be the one to teach me and heal my broken heart and deliver me from captivity and open my eyes to the truth and set me at liberty from my shattered life. This is the process that Christ wants to continue working on with me and it has been the most effective and rewarding.
Being on GSC was where it all started for me. I hope you both will continue to post as well.
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skyrider
This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden thing
Charity
Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts, I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced c
chockfull
I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate.
waysider
I can only speak for myself. I have stated many times that I regret having led people into that horrible mess and have apologized many times, as well. Beyond that, there is not much I can really do.
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Nathan_Jr
Who was the trainer?
Why did you have to have righteous anger? And how does that justify mistreating others?
Can one be righteously angry without behaving like a sadistic a$$hole?
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waysider
Righteous anger is another one of those nonsensical ideas that has no real valid meaning. It's simply a self deluded justification people used to excuse unacceptable, irrational reactions and behavior.
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Nathan_Jr
So, not unlike “spiritual anger.”
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Rocky
Righteous anger is wayspeak for rationalizing a certain kind of behavior which does not comport with The Great Commandments, sadly.
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Rocky
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Rocky
In reflection on my time at GSC, I believe you will find a good bit of self-awareness of that very notion in threads on GSC. For one to be willing to do so, s/he must be personally resilient and willing to be vulnerable, which I believe is an indication strong character. I have expressed my regret and remorse over how I handled my marriage, divorce and child raising. I'm thankful for God's mercy. As to the book to which you refer, depending on whether it's a memoir or a journalistic style exposé, I appreciate your take on it. It takes guts to acknowledge what you did about yourself. I hope you got/get a lot out of the book beyond second guessing the author.
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Rocky
BTW, You posed a very reasonable question for readers here. Thank you.
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Nathan_Jr
Yeah. It’s rhetorical. Like so many of my questions.
Here are a few other rhetorical questions that can’t nor should be answered here:
When it comes to spiritual matters or that which is eternal or that which has no name, why are we so eager to be taught, to be trained? What does it mean to be taught? What does it mean to teach? Who is the teacher?
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Rocky
Proverbs 2: 1-5 come to mind.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
Some of those conditions are internal, attitude kind of things. But "search for it as for hidden treasure" seems to me to be more tangible, outward effort/action. In this context, readings the research of sociologists and psychologists who focus on cult related matters, for example.
That's something I try to do.
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WordWolf
I don't believe every single poster we've ever had, or even every one we have now, has answered all the hard questions, but I think most of the GSC survivors have made it through.
Did most of us get some kind of benefit while in twi? Most of us got SOMETHING, otherwise we would have left (everyone except the kids who were stuck in because their families were in.) Once again, I'm glad i got IN, and I'm glad I got OUT.
Most of us understand now that twi was neither a safe nor healthy place or experience. We were hurt by people- not the least of it by being taught how to hurt other people (inside or outside twi) and being told that's what God wanted. So, whether we meant well or not, people got hurt, not the least of which were ourselves.
Most of us will never have a chance to apologize to every single person we hurt, accidentally or otherwise. We will need to deal with the inconvenient truth that we did so regardless, and that they deserve an apology. It's healthy to reach a moment, IMHO, where one wants to apologize to God for one's failings in that regard. We meant to do well, and we hurt people and disobeyed anyway. One way or another, we all need to accept that's part of our past, especially if we want to stop hurting people in the present. (After all, one common response to having been hurt in the past is to lash out in the present and try to hurt others.)
I don't think authors who write about the dangers of twi mean to suggest those who were in twi, including ourselves, weren't responsible at SOME level when we were in. The FIRST questions and topics are how twi was/is dangerous. Later topics include what we did as part of twi. One can't address that at all if one's still skipping around, saying that twi started out as a wonderful place that lcm came along and ruined. (Or worse, saying it's always been ok and is still ok.)
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skyrider
MarieP..... thank you for your post and I hope you stick around a bit. So often, we read these kinds of posts and the poster never seems to return to follow up on a conversation that s/he started.
The Way Ministry, and specifically the way corps training, presented a conundrum for many of us. We were often told that this was "training" and not how to treat our fellow believers in fellowship. After all, there was strong confrontation in the way corps to drive home the concepts of obedience and faithfulness, but for those who kept to scripture the confrontations were less impactful.
Here at GreaseSpot, there have been several threads started on how way corps deemed it their responsibility TO PROTECT their fellowships FROM martindale and upper-tier leadership. I do not believe we were justified in having 'righteous anger'..... guess I never bought into that concept even while in twi. In fact, a discerning person (ie - way corps) didn't have to mimic this over-the-top behavior by some leadership. Throughout my experience in corps, as a corps grad, and in leadership roles.... I can easily say that what you describe was not true for every corps grad. But if the shoe fits... wear it.
I believe all of us will give an account of our actions. Have I taken a long hard look at what I did? Yes, and I believe that most of my actions fall on the good side of the ledger. I don't know if the 80-20 rule applies in this situation, but I would suggest that lots of corps went into the corps training to serve others not badger them with daily confrontation. Remember, quite often.... corps coordinators were confronting one person's attitude or behavior in a room full of 300+ individuals who did NOTHING WRONG. How does one extrapolate this information? Should we wield 'righteous anger' in our branch fellowships when only one person misbehaves? No. We should find time to pull that person aside and teach them why their behavior/actions were out of order. That's loving and proper in the context of teaching someone scriptural integrity not just twi "righteous anger protocol."
Some of us have been at this website for 20 years and have discussed these issues over and over again. Yet, in the past 20-30 years.... has twi leadership changed their methods? Nope. They carry on in the same mode as wierwille did back in the '70's. Who holds the greater sin? Those of us who've repented and helped others to see the errors in twi's teachings or the hierarchy at headquarters? I fully understand your point in "taking a hard look at ourselves" in this matter. Well, that's what we've been doing for 20+ years here at GSC.
I hope you stick around and further this conversation. If you disappear after starting this thread, then it speaks for itself. Engaging conversation is a very healthy way forward for all of us.
Peace to all.
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Rocky
Btw, from a philosophical perspective, I agree with your point on who holds the greater sin. On a personal level, however, I don't necessarily want to compare whose sins are greater or lesser.
Nevertheless, Brother Skyrider, I very much appreciate, agree on, and relate to the heartfelt reflection in your two posts/comments this evening.
And MarieP, I too encourage you to stick around and continue the conversation.
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oldiesman
Agree. Thx for sharing.
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, MarieP - that is a very revealing post. After I left TWI I began to realize that I had gotten into the habit of relating to others in a very artificial way - and it was insulating me from any meaningful exchanges. I’d use ministry jargon and push TWI’s agenda and figured if anyone didn’t like it then that was too bad for them.
I lost a lot of friends when I left - but I’m learning to be myself , and allow my wife and kids the freedom to be themselves. Not a part of someone else’s exploitative agenda. I can still be the world’s biggest a$$-hole sometimes - but as a family we’re a forgiving bunch - and it no longer revolves around the ministry.
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skyrider
Yeah, Rocky.... we've been coming to GreaseSpot for 20+ years and there are lots of posts on introspection, the self-examination of our thoughts and actions while in twi. Yes, wierwille and martindale were "pulling levers of power over us," but it's the response to these situations that expose our character. What a person does in the quiet moments of their lives when no one is looking exhibits character. It was quite clear to me that those who relished in confrontations were advanced forward to higher leadership, ie region coordinators. But there were also good-hearted men and women who were positioned into leadership roles, because of damage control. In other words, the previous leader had stirred up so much ill-will and conflict that he was no longer effective in ministering to the needs in the area... and new leadership was needed.
Like any group of people.... you can NOT paint the whole group with the same brush.
The way corps certainly had its share of bad-a$$ people, because of the corps training environment. Some actually referred to some of these individuals as "Nazi-corps." Those were the crazy-agitators.... always looking for the things to confront. You know, the chair-stringing fanatic that wants to make sure that every chair is exactly aligned. Or, the flowers near the podium had to be a certain height. Or, the mints in the teacher's podium had to broken into three separate pieces for the teacher to use. Legalism in a box tied with a bow.
One of the things I learned about myself after exiting in 1998 was how twi used guilt to compel us to do things. I wrote about this in the thread entitled ........ GSC offers first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in trap.
Wierwille used guilt often at night owls and in his corps letters. He knew corps grads were distancing themselves from their corps indoctrination. It became more apparent with each passing year.
That's why "taking a long hard look at ourselves" is SO VITAL. This introspection, with others here at GSC, help us to see the blind spots that we might have in our own lives. Together, we discuss and banter back-and-forth these elements and principles. And, it is a process that TAKES TIME. Not just by reading one book and then saying "a-ha" I now know what to do. And it goes without saying that I hope MarieP returns to this conversation.... because it does take time to sort through the process.
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chockfull
Hey Marie thx for your heartfelt sharing and deep introspection. To start out first yes I absolutely realize and take accountability for my actions which definitely hurt others. I was literally told to yell at people by higher leaders. Yes that is sick. Yes I did it because I was duped. Yes I bear the responsibility for the sin of “following orders” just like all the Nazi prison camp operators.
The “Way Corps” is a multi tiered Pharisee organization. Like the masons or any other secret indoctrination program people advance through tiers by sacrificing morals at every turn.
I am so sorry for the lost time in relationships with your parents and siblings. I also experienced similar distancing from people who loved me due to my choices. I have been able to repair and recover some relationships. Others I lost. The time was too long and it was too late for that window of opportunity. I experience sorrow due to this like you.
In reality abusive and corrupt systems trap the follower into a cycle of abuse where the victim becomes the abuser. It is not easy to break these cycles regardless of where you are at in the cycle. I can only say I have resolved to not become an abuser like I have in the past. And to teach and speak against it.
Yes some of the non sanctioned Way International history books contain a telling of the story from the victim perspective. And probably the authors have also grown to avoid the personal abuse cycle also.
But victim blaming is evil and it is wrapped up completely in PFAL teachings on “the law of believing” so I’m not going to judge victims.
Thanks for sharing and hope you stay for a coffee and a donut lol.
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chockfull
The words “righteous anger” were taught and modeled. The pressure to confirm was real. No it does not justify.
Anger over a just cause should not cause sadistic actions. Because I was in a warped cult I evaluate it according to a “average” or “reasonable” person would react. If one of my calmer friends is worked up it catches my attention. Other than that I think “righteous anger” especially in context of excusing being a grade a petulant arsehole is 100 % false and 100 % an excuse.
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OldSkool
Hi and nice to meet you. For the longest time I justified my time as way corps as "fine" because I never abused people and came along right after Martindale left so I wasn't there for his reign of terror I wasn't perfect but I genuinely did all I could to help people.
Then as time went forward I took a fresh look at my involvement in TWI and way corps all that. I felt strongly convicted for being part of it all and especially for teaching the errors they promulgate. So, yes, I literally dropped on my knees and asked the Lord's forgiveness. I have also forgiven those in twi for the wrongs done on me and my family. I have no bitterness left and post here as a warning to others...both doctrinally and practically. It's my way of making amends, not that I need to offer anything else to Christ's redeeming work, but it's me bringing forth fruit meets for repentance. Cheers!
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annio
Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising
I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p:
1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power.
2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully.
3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them.
4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself.
5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time.
Thank you reading!! Onward!
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waysider
Beautifully articulated.
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OldSkool
Thanks for being so candid. Very inspiring, very inspiring. I can relate to God's compassion and love shining through and melting that tough outer shell some of us tend to develop. I guess for me I dont really take the flight method when engaged; I tend to fight even when theres nothing left to fight about. Just part of my human weakness really, not something Im proud of, ashamed really...but my point is this is an area of my life that Ive been addressing pretty heavily the past few months. A fellow GSC compadre has helped me to understand that my background and upbringing taught me to go from 0 to 150 as a survival mechanism. So for the longest there hasnt been a rational side of me once provoked. Its truly taken God's love and compassion to melt that calloused shell of mine and Im making genuine strides at temperance and controlling my anger and preferring not to fight, well unless no choice remains...but how often is that truly necessary? It helps to see others because you remind me that Im not alone and others are in the same struggles. Ditto on forgiving them, and I have. It took a while because when I first left TWI I checked out and was courted by three off shoots and they all were so adamant that I forgive wierwille, and others. At the time, and even still to a degree, I feel that their motivations were to keep the gravy train rolling with the same, but altered doctrines that wierwille taught. Over time though I recognized that I was hanging on to an excuse, even if the excuse was true in cases. Really, it feels good to have dropped the baggage and bitterness I used to carry. I feel like Frodo after he realized that the ring was truly gone....relieved and breathing fresh air.
Cool perspective all the way across but point 5 is new to me and has my wheels turning. Thanks again!
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OldSkool
Yeah this is a biggie. It literally was an extremely hard hurdle for me to get honest about. I was there front and center when martindale became the fall guy for doing what VPW taught him to do. Then once I left it took a while to understand my culpability, and gullibility as way corps and rising into the top leadership ranks working for the dorectors first hand. I literally thought I was in the center of God's will....wrong...and the congnitive dissonance was tough to navigate. Eventually I came to understand my part in the matter and of course asked for forgiveness. Its a tough pill to swallow. I kinda feel for the offshoot guys because they are convinced they are right and wierwille was a great mogfodat. Its tougher to unplug from the matrix when your lively hood is at stake. I mean, I made the choice to re-enter the workforce instead of living off donations that werent for me in the first place and that in itself was a tough pill to swallow. Its humbling to say the least.
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Charity
Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts,
I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced class and led both adult and children fellowships. I too taught the law of believing and the
greatprinciple about how we operate the spirit of God. I spoke of what Jesus accomplished for us but failed to speak of the joy and power that having an actual relationship with Christ brings (because I didn't even know about it myself).My greatest regret is for all the hurting people I talked with and my main answer to their pain was to take pfal. I did not love them with the love of God. I’d faithfully share John 10:10 with them but not Luke 4:18 where Jesus defines the abundant life he came to give to people. I had more faith in a class than I had in the spirit of God working in me to minister to someone’s needs. I've confessed to God of how sad and feeble of a Christian I was to them.
I think it speaks of your relationship with God, Annio, that you were able to show compassion for the abusers and forgive them. I wonder though, why it is often harder for us to accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves? Understanding the role I played in what went on around me in twi and sorting through my feelings about the role leadership played in messing things up spiritually is important to do. But when I consciously or subconsciously added into this mix past traumas and insecurities I had before I even knew of twi, figuring things out became more complicated and confusing.
One last thing, if at times who I thought I was and what I thought I had while in twi was based on following man made doctrine and not the truth of God’s Word, realizing the worthlessness of it all was a hard pill to swallow. So was the realization that the “issues” from my past which I thought were gone had really only been covered over because a cult like twi cannot bring deliverance nor healing.
It’s all been a lot to deal with but for me the answer has been to go back to Luke 4:18 and get to know Christ personally so he can be the one to teach me and heal my broken heart and deliver me from captivity and open my eyes to the truth and set me at liberty from my shattered life. This is the process that Christ wants to continue working on with me and it has been the most effective and rewarding.
Being on GSC was where it all started for me. I hope you both will continue to post as well.
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