God’s Budget and Double Doors .... On the Scarcity of Miracles

[waysider]

3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Ahhhhh...she might have been...she might have been...I told her we needed red drapes.

I see the problem. Your color description was not specific enough.

[OldSkool]

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

I see the problem. Your color description was not specific enough.

Man....I feel...so....blessed.....it's tremendous.

 

[T-Bone]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:59 PM, Mike said:

What VPW taught us was that mental assent lacks action. When there is risk, and something to lose by acting, but the action is taken anyway, then that is an indicator that believing is happening.

So mental assent is to intellectually accept something as true.

If I ACT on that, it’s called believing.

wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.

I accepted what he said as true - so in session 12 of PFAL , I stood up , licked my lips and was real natural - and performed the same comedic schtick I did in high school - faking a foreign language - usually Russian and Asian . 

[Nathan_Jr]

“It's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves.”

Frank Kafka, The Trial

 

 

(Hey! I didn’t write the book.)

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

So mental assent is to intellectually accept something as true.

If I ACT on that, it’s called believing.

wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.

I accepted what he said as true - so in session 12 of PFAL , I stood up , licked my lips and was real natural - and performed the same comedic schtick I did in high school - faking a foreign language - usually Russian and Asian . 

  Someday I'd love to delve into details on this.

The non-counterfeitability of SIT was something I studied long and hard in the decades before GreaseSpot, but then I put my notes down, and I never got into it here, so I am very rusty on it. But it is an important subject.

I have a folders (paper and digital) on this topic also going back to the 70s.  In the digital is an .mp4 of an old 1990s VHS of Andy Kaufman playing bongos and singing in tongues or faking it.

Hard to tell  which is which.

*/*/*

How do you know your HS gibberish was not genuine tongues?

BTW, my theater friends told me they call it gibberish in their circles.

They also will do low volume  "raspberries and strawberries" mantras to simulate a crowd of people talking randomly amongst themselves.

I have thought people like Andy Kaufman (my hero, along with Firesign) might be born again and his bongo SIT was real.

I noticed someone here posted a different Andy Kaufman doing non-singing gibberish, again maybe SIT. 

*/*/*

I also studied complex rhythms in dance were similar to complex rhythms of rap artist friends of mine when I was doing Open Mics.

In your HS gibberish did you ever go for VERY LONG periods of time, like 10 or 20 minutes to see if there were repeating patterns?  Did you even know to do such an experiment?

I am very rusty on this, but re-awakening circuits as I type.  If I ever have time we ought to get into this, and I'll break out my folders.

Meanwhile, I have explored the repetitiveness of gibberish with my friends to see if it resembled the repetitiveness we see in many PFAL grads. 

But grad repetitiveness is what I looked at most, and helped others overcome the most.  Being able to SIT for 10 or 20 minutes out loud with no noticeable repetition patterns is a big deal.

I have often thought that part of the non-counterfeitability of SIT was due to the ZERO motivation counterfeiters have to get fluent with it.

I have noticed with repetitive grads, that if you listen REAL close, there are all sorts of modulations of volume and rhythm that seems to augment the vocalization envelopes.  So if the vocalization envelopes for these grads carries less information due to repetition, but the volume and rhythm modulation carries lots of info, then the repetition that is most noticeable ain't so bad.

*/*/*/*

Anyway, that’s all the time I have for SIT right now.  I am swamped with a large backlog of posts I want to respond to next, and some posts I haven’t even read yet.

I’m home sick today so I may get to some of that backlog today.

PLUS, I want to post my Double Doors scriptures. There are not that many. I culled out the most clear ones to keep things more simple.

 

 

 

 

 

[waysider]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Hard to tell  which is which.

It's not hard at all, if you base your judgement on linguistic criteria.

[Rocky]

10 minutes ago, Mike said:

Someday I'd love to delve into details on this.

 

 

The non-counterfeitability of SIT was something I studied long and hard in the decades before GreaseSpot, but then I put my notes down, and I never got into it here, so I am very rusty on it. But it is an important subject.

Then do your research and come back to us about it WHEN YOU HAVE FULLY explored it and validated said research with theologians and scientists. To start yammering away about it before such time is the essence of going off half-cocked.

 

[T-Bone]

18 minutes ago, Mike said:

How do you know your HS gibberish was not genuine tongues?

Good question!

Come to think of it - I do remember some foreign exchange students who seemed very excited from my routine and would gesture toward me and say something in their native tongue…for all I know they could have been saying “ this clown is speaking the wonderful works of god.” 

[Rocky]

18 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Mike and Bolshevik are like two peas in a pod. Ignore them and eventually the silence will chock them out. 

In some ways, yes. In other ways no.

Mike's just along for the ride. I totally agree w/you STL on how if he is consistently ignored, he will disappear from GSC. It seems intuitive he survives on the BS he is fed in reply to HIS BS.

Bolshevik, however, in private messages to me over the last few days, has seemingly revealed his intent to destroy (or at least hinder the purpose and intent of) GSC as payback for him being victimized by it/us. He is not a victim. Nobody's a victim of GSC or Waydale, except perhaps for the intended consequences of exposure of Wierwille's, Loy's and twi's words and conduct contrary to biblical teachings.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Rocky

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Bolshevik, however, in private messages to me over the last few days, has seemingly revealed his intent to destroy GSC as payback for him being victimized by it/us. He is not a victim. Nobody's a victim of GSC or Waydale, except perhaps for the intended consequences of exposure of Wierwille's, Loy's and twi's words and conduct contrary to biblical teachings

That sure is a strange turn of events.

[Rocky]

5 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

That sure is a strange turn of events.

I should clarify what I said above is MY inference on what Bolshie implied.

I reported the situation to mods who will decide what to do about it.

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I have thought people like Andy Kaufman (my hero, along with Firesign) might be born again and his bongo SIT was real.

I noticed someone here posted a different Andy Kaufman doing non-singing gibberish, again maybe SIT. 

Nope. He was not a born again Christian. Not even might have been. He was born Jewish and was into TM.

I'm not surprised you don't know this, even though you claim him as a hero.

Andy Kaufman made a career of exposing and throughly eviscerating charlatans, including "Christian" hucksters like victor paul wierwille.

If you want to find out about Andy Kaufman, you should search again. Or, if you prefer, re-search.

Pentecostal Christians in the West aren't the only people on the planet who speak in tongues, whether counterfeit or authentic. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Yikes!

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Mike's just along for the ride. I totally agree w/you STL on how if he is consistently ignored, he will disappear from GSC. It seems intuitive he survives on the BS he is fed in reply to HIS BS.

 I agree with the sentiment of STL and you. Now - I don’t mean to give you a hard time – but since I felt like I was in a quandary several times when you’ve said this stuff – I would like some clarification and/or definitive answers.

I have reported a few of Mike’s posts before and the moderators have responded in a timely manner to me saying he has not violated Grease Spot forum rules.

 

 So, I respectfully submit there are three parameters I would like explained:

1. The statement: “If Mike is consistently ignored” would require an agreement by all other Grease Spotters. Even if it was not a formal agreement – how do you get everyone on board with that agreement, verify everyone has been notified of it, and what is in place to orient newbies to Grease Spot? 

 

2. Is it possible a Grease Spotter might zero-in on one or two points of Mike’s post to expose a fallacy for the benefit of   other   Grease Spot readers? 

I’ve witnessed several other Grease Spotters do just that and you don’t lecture them. And sometimes it’s after a whole slew of posts responding to Mike you step in with a general comment to all that implies some Grease Spotters know how to handle Mike and some don’t. I would like clarification on what is the protocol for communication in such situations.

 

 3. What if a Grease Spotter doesn’t think their response to Mike is BS?

[skyrider]

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

In some ways, yes. In other ways no.

Mike's just along for the ride. I totally agree w/you STL on how if he is consistently ignored, he will disappear from GSC. It seems intuitive he survives on the BS he is fed in reply to HIS BS.

Bolshevik, however, in private messages to me over the last few days, has seemingly revealed his intent to destroy GSC as payback for him being victimized by it/us. He is not a victim. Nobody's a victim of GSC or Waydale, except perhaps for the intended consequences of exposure of Wierwille's, Loy's and twi's words and conduct contrary to biblical teachings.

in private messages to me, Bolshevik said he was going to continue speaking out against "my form of control."

[Stayed Too Long]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

 I agree with the sentiment of STL and you. Now - I don’t mean to give you a hard time – but since I felt like I was in a quandary several times when you’ve said this stuff – I would like some clarification and/or definitive answers.

I have reported a few of Mike’s posts before and the moderators have responded in a timely manner to me saying he has not violated Grease Spot forum rules.

 

 So, I respectfully submit there are three parameters I would like explained:

1. The statement: “If Mike is consistently ignored” would require an agreement by all other Grease Spotters. Even if it was not a formal agreement – how do you get everyone on board with that agreement, verify everyone has been notified of it, and what is in place to orient newbies to Grease Spot? 

Obviously ignoring Mike is a completely voluntary thing that not everyone will probably endorse and no agreement is proposed. But if enough posters do write him off, It might make a difference. It is like saying to not support a cafe because the food is not that good. It would not require everyone to boycott, but if a sufficient number did it would have an effect.

2. Is it possible a Grease Spotter might zero-in on one or two points of Mike’s post to expose a fallacy for the benefit of   other   Grease Spot readers? 

I’ve witnessed several other Grease Spotters do just that and you don’t lecture them. And sometimes it’s after a whole slew of posts responding to Mike you step in with a general comment to all that implies some Grease Spotters know how to handle Mike and some don’t. I would like clarification on what is the protocol for communication in such situations.

 

 3. What if a Grease Spotter doesn’t think their response to Mike is BS?

Of course, everyone will probably not participate. So be it. Let them respond to Mike.

 

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, skyrider said:

in private messages to me, Bolshevik said he was going to continue speaking out against "my form of control."

He may or may not be able to continue doing so on GSC. I don't have inside information on this subject, but I got the impression from Raf's interaction w/Bolsh that one of our resident trolls, at minimum, is on a very short leash... 

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

[Actually, Nathan_Jr quoted Mike as saying] I have thought people like Andy Kaufman (my hero, along with Firesign) might be born again and his bongo SIT was real.

IMO, this is nothing more and nothing less than another expression of Mike's undisciplined imagination.

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 So, I respectfully submit there are three parameters I would like explained:

1. The statement: “If Mike is consistently ignored” would require a[n TACIT, and therefore unenforceable] agreement by all other Grease Spotters. Even if it was not a formal agreement – how do you get everyone on board with that agreement, verify everyone has been notified of it, and what is in place to orient newbies to Grease Spot? [perhaps a disclaimer putting Mike's "verbal contributions" in context can be posted on threads]

 

2. Is it possible a Grease Spotter might zero-in on one or two points of Mike’s post to expose a fallacy for the benefit of   other   Grease Spot readers? [I am NOT a moderator here. I don't make the rules. I wouldn't step on their toes. Personally, I don't think, at this time, ANYone interacting w/Mike makes a positive difference for new or longtime GSC posters. I pose this rhetorical question to you: is there ANYTHING he posts which somehow is NOT fallacious or otherwise outrageous or evidence of his undisciplined approach to blathering on about anything here?]

I’ve witnessed several other Grease Spotters do just that and you don’t lecture them. And sometimes it’s after a whole slew of posts responding to Mike you step in with a general comment to all that implies some Grease Spotters know how to handle Mike and some don’t. I would like clarification on what is the protocol for communication in such situations. [I do not make the rules or determine what might be an acceptable protocol for interacting w/Mike. I don't read everything he posts. I don't read everything anyone else writes in response to his vain babblings.]

 

 3. What if a Grease Spotter doesn’t think their response to Mike is BS? [I don't make the rules here. I can't imagine the owner or moderators for GSC have any intention to stop him from posting here or anyone from responding to him, regardless of how ridiculous any of it might be.]

The bottom line is this: for Mike this is a social exercise of some sort. He almost certainly feels (especially after making a donation for the upkeep of the site) like he belongs here. Those who take his bait and get hooked, take his bait and get hooked. He is exceptionally skilled at pushing YOUR buttons. Ultimately, it's always going to be up to you to what extent you continue to engage with him.

Your comment with the questions is certainly thoughtful. I remain convinced Mike will continue to yank your chain as long as you let him. Which is probably going to be a long time. Further, I remain convinced the only way to incentivize Mike taking a LOOONNNNGGG vacation is to ignore him.

Selah

Edited March 4, 2023 by Rocky

[Mike]

18 hours ago, T-Bone said:

wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.

You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.

I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.

I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/17393-how-did-the-ordination-of-clergy-thing-work-in-twi/page/4/#comment-415724

 

These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?”  on page 4.

 

Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P.  and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

posted June 7, 2008 by DontWorryBeHappy:

… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......

my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".

..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.

........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught

.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"

..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..

........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"

............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!

...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!

my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.

......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!

..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.

........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".

........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!

........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........

during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.

.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!

.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!

........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!

as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".

........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.

There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!

..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!

.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!

.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!

Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/

I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it.  I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again.   It absolutely can!

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Mike

[So_crates]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.

 

 

I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.

 

 

I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here:

file:///C:/Users/mike7/Downloads/01%20GreaseSpot%20threads%20to%20save/How%20did%20the%20ordination%20of%20clergy%20thing%20work%20in%20TWI%20-%20GSC%20history/How%20did%20the%20ordination%20of%20clergy%20thing%20work%20in%20TWI%20-%2004.html

 

 

These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?” 

 

 

Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P.  and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.

 

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

 

 

posted June 7, 2008 by DontWorryBeHappy:

 

 

… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......

 

 

my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".

 

 

..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.

 

 

........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught

 

 

.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"

 

 

..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..

 

 

........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"

 

 

............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!

 

 

...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!

 

 

my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.

 

 

......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!

 

 

..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.

 

 

........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".

 

 

........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!

 

 

........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........

 

 

during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.

 

 

.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!

 

 

.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!

 

 

........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!

 

 

as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".

 

 

........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.

 

 

There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!

 

 

..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!

 

 

.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!

 

 

.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!

 

 

Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

 

 

 

 

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/

 

 

I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it.  I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again.   It absolutely can!

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, your link doesn't work.

Second, don't you think I'd want to read it in the original?

Third, why the reformatting?

Fourth, how do I know you didn't edit out everything you disagreed with, leaving in only the parts you agree with? Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

[So_crates]

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

file:///C:/Users/mike7/Downloads/01%20GreaseSpot%20threads%20to%20save/How%20did%20the%20ordination%20of%20clergy%20thing%20work%20in%20TWI%20-%20GSC%20history/How%20did%20the%20ordination%20of%20clergy%20thing%20work%20in%20TWI%20-%2004.html

These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?”  on page 4.

Yah, I'm going to waste my time using a search engine when it's not important enough for you to.

Sloppy..sloppy...sloppy.

[Mike]

 

On 3/2/2023 at 12:02 PM, So_crates said:

Just before I left the ministry in 1986, I was about to give ABS. At the time I was recently between job and I had given ABS faithfully for a year. I quickly calculated ...   ... the sent the check to an address I lived at 10 years prior. (I later found out the new residents took the check and cashed it.) I had to argue with the business manager to even get half the money owed me. Now, you have believing and action and I had skin on the game, so what happened [?]

 

Hi So_crates,

You and I were discussing this and I gave you a story of mine with similar issues where it seemed like the law of believing was not working for us.

I am still working on my response to all that.  Have you thought any on my question to you?  I asked what was it that I did wrong as I drove my limping car to go out WoW. 

But, I got a little distracted by T-Bone's SIT thread, and then with life's business.  But I will be back to that discussion soon.

Meanwhile, I wanted to take another tangent into the Gospels.  You brought up a point in another thread and I answered it this way:

On 3/2/2023 at 10:59 AM, Mike said:

... it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing. 

Have you ever gone through the 4 Gospels and taken note of all that Jesus teaches on believing?  It might change your attitudes. Maybe I should post them here?  Are you even AWARE of Jesus talking about believing?

 

Most people here are offended by VPW's teaching on the law of believing, and I often get the impression that few here ever checked out the 4 Gospels to see what Jesus taught on the law of believing. 

When I first got into the Word, I tried my best to check EVERYTHING out that was in PFAL, including the law of believing.  I had two big reasons, in the 1970s, to read all of the Gospels for (1) anything Jesus said about HIMSELF that could settle the Trinity and “Jesus is God” issues that were raging in my mind, and (2) to see what Jesus taught on the law of believing.

Well, I went back and did it again a few days ago.  I didn't read all the Gospels this time, but I used technology to find all occurrences of "faith" and "believing" and "believe" in the KJV.  I did this fast, so I can't guarantee I got every last one.

I get the strong impression that few here ever systematically studied what Jesus said about the law of believing. This may help some.

The words faith and believing and believe are all tied into the one Greek word pistis.  Some are verb form, some noun form.

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 8

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 8

25 And his disciples came to [him], and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 9

27  And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

30 And their eyes were opened…

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 17

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 21

20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT MARK

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 2

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

 

MARK CHAPTER 4

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

 

MARK CHAPTER 5

30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's [house certain] which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

 

MARK CHAPTER 9

21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

MARK CHAPTER 11

21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

 

MARK CHAPTER 16

9  Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12  After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14  Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT LUKE

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 1

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.

22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

 

LUKE CHAPTER 1

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

 

LUKE CHAPTER 7

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 

LUKE CHAPTER 8

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

LUKE CHAPTER 8

24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

 

LUKE CHAPTER 17

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

 

LUKE CHAPTER 17

17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?

18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT JOHN

 

 

JOHN CHAPTER 14

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

JOHN CHAPTER 20

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike]

20 minutes ago, So_crates said:

Yah, I'm going to waste my time using a search engine when it's not important enough for you to.

Sloppy..sloppy...sloppy.

I struggled to get that link to work. 

Try pasting it in your browser.

I will try to get it to work.

Meanwhile try this:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/17393-how-did-the-ordination-of-clergy-thing-work-in-twi/page/4/#comment-415724

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Mike

[So_crates]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

 

Hi So_crates,

You and I were discussing this and I gave you a story of mine with similar issues where it seemed like the law of believing was not working for us.

I am still working on my response to all that.  Have you thought any on my question to you?  I asked what was it that I did wrong as I drove my limping car to go out WoW. 

But, I got a little distracted by T-Bone's SIT thread, and then with life's business.  But I will be back to that discussion soon.

Meanwhile, I wanted to take another tangent into the Gospels.  You brought up a point in another thread and I answered it this way:

 

Most people here are offended by VPW's teaching on the law of believing, and I often get the impression that few here ever checked out the 4 Gospels to see what Jesus taught on the law of believing. 

 

 

When I first got into the Word, I tried my best to check EVERYTHING out that was in PFAL, including the law of believing.  I had two big reasons, in the 1970s, to read all of the Gospels for (1) anything Jesus said about HIMSELF that could settle the Trinity and “Jesus is God” issues that were raging in my mind, and (2) to see what Jesus taught on the law of believing.

 

 

Well, I went back and did it again a few days ago.  I didn't read all the Gospels this time, but I used technology to find all occurrences of "faith" and "believing" and "believe" in the KJV.  I did this fast, so I can't guarantee I got every last one.

 

 

I get the strong impression that few here ever systematically studied what Jesus said about the law of believing. This may help some.

 

 

The words faith and believing and believe are all tied into the one Greek word pistis.  Some are verb form, some noun form.

 

 

 

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 8

 

 

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

 

 

10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

 

 

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

 

 

 

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 8

 

 

25 And his disciples came to [him], and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

 

 

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

 

 

 

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 9

 

 

27  And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, [Thou] Son of David, have mercy on us.

 

 

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

 

 

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

 

 

30 And their eyes were opened…

 

 

 

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 17

 

 

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

 

 

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

 

 

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

 

 

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

 

 

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

 

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

 

 

 

 

MATTHEW CHAPTER 21

 

 

20 And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

 

 

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

 

 

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT MARK

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 2

 

 

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

 

 

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 4

 

 

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

 

 

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 5

 

 

30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

 

 

31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

 

 

32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

 

 

33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

 

 

34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

 

 

35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's [house certain] which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

 

 

36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 9

 

 

21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

 

 

22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

 

 

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.

 

 

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 11

 

 

21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

 

 

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

 

 

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

 

 

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

 

 

 

 

 

MARK CHAPTER 16

 

 

9  Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

 

 

10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

 

 

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

 

 

12  After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

 

 

13 And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.

 

 

14  Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 

 

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

 

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

 

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 

 

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

 

19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT LUKE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 1

 

 

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

 

 

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

 

 

20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

 

 

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.

 

 

22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 1

 

 

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

 

 

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

 

 

43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

 

 

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

 

 

45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

 

 

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 7

 

 

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

 

 

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

 

 

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 8

 

 

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

 

 

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 

 

13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

 

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

 

 

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 8

 

 

24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

 

 

25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 17

 

 

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

 

 

6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

 

 

 

 

 

LUKE CHAPTER 17

 

 

17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?

 

 

18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

 

 

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SAINT JOHN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JOHN CHAPTER 14

 

 

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

 

11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

 

 

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

 

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

 

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

 

 

15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

 

 

 

 

JOHN CHAPTER 20

 

 

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

 

 

30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

 

 

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So far you've posted nothing to prove why my two instances of believing failed.

Edited March 4, 2023 by So_crates

[Mike]

35 minutes ago, So_crates said:

First, your link doesn't work.

Second, don't you think I'd want to read it in the original?

Third, why the reformatting?

Fourth, how do I know you didn't edit out everything you disagreed with, leaving in only the parts you agree with? Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

I fixed the link.  Sorry about that.

I did think people would want to see the original, and that is why I posted the link.

I re-formatted it to make it easier to read.