God’s Budget and Double Doors .... On the Scarcity of Miracles

[Raf]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:05 PM, Mike said:

posted June 7, 2008 by DontWorryBeHappy:

 

 

… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......

 

 

my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".

 

 

..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.

Ok, did a little homework. 

There was no professor of linguistics named Dubofsky at CCNY. School's archives have no record of him. 

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmmph

[Raf]

I am also having trouble finding any professional or academic publications authored by any linguist with the name Dubofsky. Linguistics is a publish-or-perish field, so it would be unusual for someone in that profession to have no publications to his name. 

Of course, that does not mean my search was exhaustive. But so far, nil.

[Raf]

Proving a negative is a little more xhallenging than affirming a known fact.

Does anyone have any evidence aside from DWBH's non-credible claim that DWBH's father was a linguist fluent in 13 languages? 

Because...

hand me my megaphone:

 

I AM CALLING OUT HIS SIT STORY AS A BULLS HIT LIE.

Linguist my ass.

Prove. Your. Claim.

[Mike]

His father could have had a different last name.

[Mike]

It suddenly occurred to me that in Daniel 9, the struggling GOOD ANGELS were God's budget. 

God limited Himself to these angels to get a job done, and it was a struggle that took time for them.  We know the angels are numbered, and therefore not infinite in that kind of power.

So, in  Daniel 9 we see God getting a job done within His budget, beating the devil's ability to work his budget.  But we do NOT see an overwhelming infinite force that QUICKLY wipes out the devil's resistance.

The numbered angels are God's budget.

 

(....I told you this idea comes and goes for decades with me.)

Edited July 7, 2023 by Mike

[Raf]

oh ffs

[Raf]

Please provide evidence that his father's name was different than his own.

Please provide evidence of his father's actual name.

Horse hit

[Nathan_Jr]

That evidence is not in the budget.

[cman]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

It suddenly occurred to me that in Daniel 9, the struggling GOOD ANGELS were God's budget. 

God limited Himself to these angels to get a job done, and it was a struggle that took time for them.  We know the angels are numbered, and therefore not infinite in that kind of power.

So, in  Daniel 9 we see God getting a job done within His budget, beating the devil's ability to work his budget.  But we do NOT see an overwhelming infinite force that QUICKLY wipes out the devil's resistance.

How can you even make any sense at all. Tell me what the difference is between angels and what you think the devil is. And how many angels are there? You imply that you know but you don't know, do you.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, cman said:

How can you even make any sense at all. Tell me what the difference is between angels and what you think the devil is. And how many angels are there? You imply that you know but you don't know, do you.

I was referring to how the Word says there are twice as many good angels as bad. That seems to say their number is finite.  It also seems that Daniel 9 is about an angelic visit.  I try to learn from it.

The sense that I see in this chapter is that God's infinite power was not used, and instead this angel, and how ever many other angels he had in his command, were taking a long time in answering Daniel's prayer because they were meeting opposing forces that hindered them, thus delaying them.

So I see in this chapter that God did not use His unlimited powers to answer Daniel's prayer, but instead He is limited Himself to the angels that eventually got the job done.  This is the idea I had in mind when I used the word "budget" for this thread. 

 

[cman]

Well....the idea does not work I think.

Where do these angels reside? What is the diff between a good one and a not good one?

"God" is always using his unlimited power, always talking- never shuts up.

[waysider]

25 minutes ago, Mike said:

they were meeting opposing forces that hindered them, thus delaying them.

........or, maybe they had exceeded their quarterly spending allowance.

[Nathan_Jr]

I wonder how an infinite power can impose a limit on itself. Does infinite power have room for limits? Once a power limits itself, is it still infinite? Was it ever?

Can infinite mind even conceive of limitations? Can a finite mind conceive of infinity?

Who devised these gods? 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Nathan_Jr]

“I was referring to how [YourWalk+ChristInYou+Bible+YourBelieving] says there are twice as many…”

[So_crates]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I was referring to how the Word says there are twice as many good angels as bad. That seems to say their number is finite.  It also seems that Daniel 9 is about an angelic visit.  I try to learn from it.

The sense that I see in this chapter is that God's infinite power was not used, and instead this angel, and how ever many other angels he had in his command, were taking a long time in answering Daniel's prayer because they were meeting opposing forces that hindered them, thus delaying them.

So I see in this chapter that God did not use His unlimited powers to answer Daniel's prayer, but instead He is limited Himself to the angels that eventually got the job done.  This is the idea I had in mind when I used the word "budget" for this thread. 

 

So it's your contention that God--a being of infinite power--turns to beings of finite power--angels--to get things done. And, as you've previously stated, God does this to protect us.

How does deferring to a lesser power protect us?

To put it in human terms, God has the drop on the devil, as he's packing heat. The devil pulls out a shiv and flashes it. God then tosses away his pistol and also protects us with a knife.

As if God couldn't protect all of us with a flick of his wrist if he chose to.

Why would God limit himself?

I, however, know why this conspiracy theory got started. Saint Vic was afraid he would be exposed as the faker he is, so he had to make up an excuse why all those followers weren't living the abundant life like he promised.

Edited July 8, 2023 by So_crates

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmph

[cman]

I think God can look like the Devil more often than realized. We look at things from a unique perspective, our own, usually, unless we are tied up into someone else's words and ideas instead of our own spirit.

Edited July 8, 2023 by cman

[OldSkool]

31 minutes ago, cman said:

I think God can look like the Devil more often than realized. We look at things from a unique perspective, our own, usually, unless we are tied up into someone else's words and ideas instead of our own spirit.

God certainly uses evil for his own purposes, thats in the Bible...not Da Verd tho...at least da verd acc to wierwille

[Nathan_Jr]

I am reminded of a G. K. Chesterton poem…

[waysider]

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Who devised these gods? 

 

 

The Ballad of God-Makers

BY G. K. CHESTERTON

A bird flew out at the break of day

From the nest where it had curled,

And ere the eve the bird had set

Fear on the kings of the world.

 

The first tree it lit upon

Was green with leaves unshed;

The second tree it lit upon

Was red with apples red;

 

The third tree it lit upon

Was barren and was brown,

Save for a dead man nailed thereon

On a hill above a town.

 

That night the kings of the earth were gay

And filled the cup and can;

Last night the kings of the earth were chill

For dread of a naked man.

 

‘If he speak two more words,’ they said,

‘The slave is more than the free;

If he speak three more words,’ they said,

‘The stars are under the sea.’

 

Said the King of the East to the King of the West,

I wot his frown was set,

‘Lo, let us slay him and make him as dung,

It is well that the world forget.’

 

Said the King of the West to the King of the East,

I wot his smile was dread,

‘Nay, let us slay him and make him a god,

It is well that our god be dead.’

 

They set the young man on a hill,

They nailed him to a rod;

And there in darkness and in blood

They made themselves a god.

 

And the mightiest word was left unsaid,

And the world had never a mark,

And the strongest man of the sons of men

Went dumb into the dark.

 

Then hymns and harps of praise they brought,

Incense and gold and myrrh,

And they thronged above the seraphim,

The poor dead carpenter.

 

‘Thou art the prince of all,’ they sang,

‘Ocean and earth and air.’

Then the bird flew on to the cruel cross,

And hid in the dead man’s hair.

 

‘Thou art the son of the world.’ they cried, `

‘Speak if our prayers be heard.’

And the brown bird stirred in the dead man’s hair

And it seemed that the dead man stirred.

 

Then a shriek went up like the world’s last cry

From all nations under heaven,

And a master fell before a slave

And begged to be forgiven.

 

They cowered, for dread in his wakened eyes

The ancient wrath to see;

And a bird flew out of the dead Christ’s hair,

And lit on a lemon tree.

 

[cman]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I was referring to how the Word says there are twice as many good angels as bad. That seems to say their number is finite.

your angels are good and bad

4 hours ago, Mike said:

The sense that I see in this chapter is that God's infinite power was not used, and instead this angel, and how ever many other angels he had in his command, were taking a long time in answering Daniel's prayer because they were meeting opposing forces that hindered them, thus delaying them.

this is how you see it, Mike, can you look at this another way?

the battle is in the mind cause we are the ones with abilities to choose and command

[Nathan_Jr]

51 minutes ago, waysider said:

 

 

The Ballad of God-Makers

BY G. K. CHESTERTON

A bird flew out at the break of day

From the nest where it had curled,

And ere the eve the bird had set

Fear on the kings of the world.

 

The first tree it lit upon

Was green with leaves unshed;

The second tree it lit upon

Was red with apples red;

 

The third tree it lit upon

Was barren and was brown,

Save for a dead man nailed thereon

On a hill above a town.

 

That night the kings of the earth were gay

And filled the cup and can;

Last night the kings of the earth were chill

For dread of a naked man.

 

‘If he speak two more words,’ they said,

‘The slave is more than the free;

If he speak three more words,’ they said,

‘The stars are under the sea.’

 

Said the King of the East to the King of the West,

I wot his frown was set,

‘Lo, let us slay him and make him as dung,

It is well that the world forget.’

 

Said the King of the West to the King of the East,

I wot his smile was dread,

‘Nay, let us slay him and make him a god,

It is well that our god be dead.’

 

They set the young man on a hill,

They nailed him to a rod;

And there in darkness and in blood

They made themselves a god.

 

And the mightiest word was left unsaid,

And the world had never a mark,

And the strongest man of the sons of men

Went dumb into the dark.

 

Then hymns and harps of praise they brought,

Incense and gold and myrrh,

And they thronged above the seraphim,

The poor dead carpenter.

 

‘Thou art the prince of all,’ they sang,

‘Ocean and earth and air.’

Then the bird flew on to the cruel cross,

And hid in the dead man’s hair.

 

‘Thou art the son of the world.’ they cried, `

‘Speak if our prayers be heard.’

And the brown bird stirred in the dead man’s hair

And it seemed that the dead man stirred.

 

Then a shriek went up like the world’s last cry

From all nations under heaven,

And a master fell before a slave

And begged to be forgiven.

 

They cowered, for dread in his wakened eyes

The ancient wrath to see;

And a bird flew out of the dead Christ’s hair,

And lit on a lemon tree.

 

The comment about God appearing like the devil made me think of this one:

 

 

Gold Leaves

 

Lo! I am come to autumn
When all the leaves are gold;
Grey hairs and golden leaves cry out
The year and I am old.

In youth I sought the prince of men,
Captain in cosmic wars,
Our Titan, even the weeds would show
Defiant, to the stars.

But now a great thing in the street
Seems any human nod,
Where shift in strange democracy
The million masks of God.

In youth I sought the golden flower
Hidden in wood or wold,
But I am come to autumn
When all the leaves are gold.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Nathan_Jr]

Angels get no respect, but it was an angel who changed the course of history when Abraham needed to be steered from murdering his own precious son.

God was in one of his devilish, evil moods, I guess, when he commanded such a wicked act of Abraham. Thank goodness that angel appeared in the nick of time. How would the rest of the story played out had he not?

[So_crates]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:23 AM, Mike said:

It suddenly occurred to me that in Daniel 9, the struggling GOOD ANGELS were God's budget. 

God limited Himself to these angels to get a job done, and it was a struggle that took time for them.  We know the angels are numbered, and therefore not infinite in that kind of power.

So, in  Daniel 9 we see God getting a job done within His budget, beating the devil's ability to work his budget.  But we do NOT see an overwhelming infinite force that QUICKLY wipes out the devil's resistance.

The numbered angels are God's budget.

 

(....I told you this idea comes and goes for decades with me.)

Or, to put it another way, what does God gain by deferring to a lesser power?

Put in Wayspeak: What profits God, an infinitely powerful being, by deferring his power to a finitely powerful being, angels?