Well, here's a news flash. The Corps didn't invent itself. It was the creation of one Victor Paul Wierwille. It was his brainchild. Without him, it would have simply never existed.
Well, here's a news flash. The Corps didn't invent itself. It was the creation of one Victor Paul Wierwille. It was his brainchild. Without him, it would have simply never existed.
Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that.
I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly. You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.
Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow?
The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her. It befuddled me too. I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did. I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer.
The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil 2000 years ago. That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil. You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide.
The research dept was set up for several other reasons. I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now.
Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow?
The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her. It befuddled me too. I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did. I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer.
The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil 2000 years ago. That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil. You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide.
The research dept was set up for several other reasons. I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now.
Research Dept GOALS and AIMS
1 – To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.
2 – To find more examples of scripture teaching what was already in PFAL
3 – To help students believe better what they were taught
4 – To help prove things to other Christians who were suspicious of VPW
5 – To help grads in not getting swayed by the erroneous teachings of Churchianity
I am going to search for my list and add to that someday.
Please oh please Mister Grease Spotter kind sir - don't take my idol away - - - - please don't !!!!!!
Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that.
I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly. You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.
You completely missed the point, Mike. Or, was that done intentionally to shift the blame?
To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.
wierwille knew plagiarizing, lying and sexually molesting women was wrong.
To justify his inner demons telling him it was okay to do whatever his little old sinful heart desired, it would be necessary to be the best hypocrite he could be – and that meant teaching his followers to obey the moral dictates of the Bible – while he did as he full pleased.
Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that.
If I had been reading your posts for understanding, you would have had enough time to read Undertow a 20,000 times over, make a book report with selfie pictures of the shock on your face that wierwille really was a shyster, and circles, arrows and paragraphs on the back of each selfie, and several theme papers including "what I learned from Undertow that convinced me what a wierwille-worshipper I've been", and "why it took me 15 years, 11 months, 24 days, 19 hours, 58 seconds, and 200 milliseconds to read a 475 page book" and "The amazing literary structure of Undertow the A-B-C-B-As of escaping a cult", write the screenplay for a film, create a musical and start a line of PFAL action figures - wierwille as the puppet-master - collect all nine all the time.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly. You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.
you missed understanding that the way corps was created by wierwille based on the material in PFAL...the way corps program sucked because PFAL sucked because material plagiarized by an incompetent shyster who didn't know what he was doing sucks.
"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching," - John Wooden, coach, led UCLA men's basketball to 10 NCAA national championships 1964-1975. (Did NOT invent the dunk shot.)
"[Your behavior that people don't see] doesn't matter, unless you believe it will." - victor paul wierwille, charlatan, 1973 Romans Corps Teaching Q&A with Loy Craig Martindale. (vpw claimed himself the inventor of the hook shot.)
Which one of these men would you have your children imitate? On whose shoulders would you have them stand? With whom would you leave your daughter alone for ten minutes?
1 – To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.
2 – To find more examples of scripture teaching what was already in PFAL
3 – To help students believe better what they were taught
4 – To help prove things to other Christians who were suspicious of VPW
5 – To help grads in not getting swayed by the erroneous teachings of Churchianity
Then that is further proof that it never was a research department in the first place. It was intended to rubber stamp VPW's "research" and much of said research is blantantly false. Athletes of the spirit for example. The goals you listed verify that it was a rubber stamp department.
Thats another problem mike. the way international is not honest and neither was wierwille, they lied the entire time. But yet how many, many, many people did I tell the line "We are a Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry. Except no research and a shell of a research department.
Mike wierwille and the way international produced/produce putrid fruit.
I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.
It doesnt have to be God inspired. Except in the mouth of two or three witnesses receive not an accusation against a Church leader....there are countless witnesses, first hand victim accounts such as Kristen Skedgell that wierwille used his position as a minister to seduce young, unsuspecting women: married or not. His own granddaughter told me of the card playing drunken revelry that went on in the wierwille home basement. All of the trustees lived lavishly on the abundant sharing...they looted it every chance they got. These arent rumors mike. Its sad people are telling you the truth and you stop your ears because it was VPW.
But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos. The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him.
So you fell for the good words and fair speeches part and continued to allow them to make merchandise of your faith.
Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow?
The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her. It befuddled me too. I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did. I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer.
The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil 2000 years ago. That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil. You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide.
The research dept was set up for several other reasons. I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now.
*/*/*/*
Research Dept GOALS and AIMS
1 – To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics.
2 – To find more examples of scripture teaching what was already in PFAL
3 – To help students believe better what they were taught
4 – To help prove things to other Christians who were suspicious of VPW
5 – To help grads in not getting swayed by the erroneous teachings of Churchianity
I am going to search for my list and add to that someday.
We’re not impatient it is just that it’s ridiculous for you to take a year to get through a short book. It also illustrates that you only read what supports your idols. The ending is not spoiled it is a real story from a real Christian and ignoring it and calling her different names is wrong.
I don’t know what point you are making about 5-senses. Everybody has them including your idol. Christians worked in the research department with godly goals and intentions.
Yes VP approached research not with inductive reasoning seeking what it says of itself but deductive reasoning assuming his visions were true and looking for supporting evidence. That in itself is an admission there never was any genuine research in TWI. None by VP and due to his influence none by those he hired other than to shine up his theories.
Yet it didn’t work out that way - the Christians actually did genuine God inspired work, which caused friction with Wierwille as opposed to just going along with him. Walter did more of the go along to get along as he is part of Wierwilles extended family. All of the genuine Christians were fired, and the work taken credit for as authors by VP.
All of those 5 goals you listed for the research department are not goals that benefit the entire body of Christ, but benefit the setup of a cult and cult leadership.
Well, here's a news flash. The Corps didn't invent itself. It was the creation of one Victor Paul Wierwille. It was his brainchild. Without him, it would have simply never existed.
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior.
No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program.
Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly.
What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry.
Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural.
Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce.
And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior.
No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program.
Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly.
What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry.
Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural.
Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce.
And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.
19 minutes ago, Mike said:
I know for sure on several occasions he said that he could possibly terminate the Corps, but NOT the WoW program.
I never heard the version you wrote above.
If you ask me the WOW program was a glorified trick to make PFAL grads think it’s biblical - spreading the gospel - but it’s just motivating them to get another PFAL class together…each one reach one new customer- sell them on the greatest con in the world today…always be closing.
if wierwille was genuinely interested in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, I think he should have instructed all his followers to share stuff out of the 4 gospels and how having a genuine dynamic transformative relationship with their Lord Jesus Christ changed their life - - instead of blabbing about the stupid PFAL class .
And the corps program is the mini-wierwille clone factory. “ we have ways of making you stick with PFAL”. Indoctrination on steroids! From the heart of our beloved cult-leader - - drop-shipped into a living room near you. Shipping charges (corps sponsorship is optional but highly recommended) will redeem blessings 10, 20 and a hundredfold of wadded up counterfeit money. Each one blood-let one.
I know for sure on several occasions he said that he could possibly terminate the Corps
It has, indeed, been documented that he made threats to terminate CORPS. If one doesn't accept the testimony provided here, one need only need victor paul wierwille's own letters to "his CORPS."
(I can't find the link now. I thought the letters were on eternallyblessed. Has it been whitewashed? Letters have no copyright protection. Does anyone have the link to this invaluable evidence??)
IIRC, he terminated one class of CORPS for a day or two, then hoovered them back and reinstated them. ZERO CORPS was a way to hang this threat over everyone's head.
4 hours ago, waysider said:
Threatening to terminate the Corps was a hollow, phony threat used to elicit loyalty.
The same exact tactic was used in FellowLaborers. (I was there.)
Exactly. This is a typical manipulation and intimidation tactic of NPDs. It's about control. Control by threat. All narcissists do this. ALL. OF. THEM.
When a narcissist feels threatened, he will lash out with fear and hate. This is what victor did when vast swaths of people, especially CORPS, started leaving in the 1970's. See CORPS letters. The narc's greatest fear is being exposed, being found out for the fraud he is.
The narcissist hates the truth and hates those who know the truth. Those who are indifferent to the narc are mere empties, but sources of narc supply who begin to challenge the narc will find themselves the target of a campaign of destruction. And it all begins with mark and avoid.
When people started waking up to the stupidity of his doctrine and the sand of lies upon which his "ministry" was built, he felt threatened. The threat of abandonment is almost as serious as the threat of exposure. But the narc won't be abandoned by his supply!! No way. No how. "You can't quit. You're fired!"
Then the smear campaign starts against those the narc can no longer control, as with the Zero CORPS, as with those he spit on in the CORPS letters.
In "vp and me", lcm documented vpw telling one corps class they were all kicked out, then quietly allowed them individually to rejoin, provided they swore more loyalty to him. According to lcm, MOST of them chose to do so.
The WOW program was remarkable for twi for not only being a free sales force for twi classes and tithing, not only for providing their own transportation and lodging wherever they were TOLD to go,
but for PAYING for the privilege! It cost money to go WOW.
If someone's trying to push the idea that they understand God better than I do, and that I should study with them or under them,
and one of the things they're trying to explain is why they aren't seeing miracles in their lives,
they're not going to get far with me.
If you're not seeing miracles, and you're supposedly a Christian, I'll tell you this for free- if you're looking to blame God Almighty, you're looking to place the blame where it doesn't belong.
If someone's trying to push the idea that they understand God better than I do, and that I should study with them or under them,
and one of the things they're trying to explain is why they aren't seeing miracles in their lives,
they're not going to get far with me.
If you're not seeing miracles, and you're supposedly a Christian, I'll tell you this for free- if you're looking to blame God Almighty, you're looking to place the blame where it doesn't belong.
Man, say that again or several more times for the people in the back. Great point and I couldnt agree more.
In "vp and me", lcm documented vpw telling one corps class they were all kicked out, then quietly allowed them individually to rejoin, provided they swore more loyalty to him. According to lcm, MOST of them chose to do so.
The WOW program was remarkable for twi for not only being a free sales force for twi classes and tithing, not only for providing their own transportation and lodging wherever they were TOLD to go,
but for PAYING for the privilege! It cost money to go WOW.
I remember the days of people deciding to go Wow at the ROA and “believing” to get their money together to go.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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waysider
Blame the Corps! It's all the Corp's fault!
Well, here's a news flash. The Corps didn't invent itself. It was the creation of one Victor Paul Wierwille. It was his brainchild. Without him, it would have simply never existed.
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Mike
Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that.
I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly. You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.
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T-Bone
Please oh please Mister Grease Spotter kind sir - don't take my idol away - - - - please don't !!!!!!
It's all I've got !!!!!
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waysider
You completely missed the point, Mike. Or, was that done intentionally to shift the blame?
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T-Bone
wierwille knew plagiarizing, lying and sexually molesting women was wrong.
To justify his inner demons telling him it was okay to do whatever his little old sinful heart desired, it would be necessary to be the best hypocrite he could be – and that meant teaching his followers to obey the moral dictates of the Bible – while he did as he full pleased.
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T-Bone
If I had been reading your posts for understanding, you would have had enough time to read Undertow a 20,000 times over, make a book report with selfie pictures of the shock on your face that wierwille really was a shyster, and circles, arrows and paragraphs on the back of each selfie, and several theme papers including "what I learned from Undertow that convinced me what a wierwille-worshipper I've been", and "why it took me 15 years, 11 months, 24 days, 19 hours, 58 seconds, and 200 milliseconds to read a 475 page book" and "The amazing literary structure of Undertow the A-B-C-B-As of escaping a cult", write the screenplay for a film, create a musical and start a line of PFAL action figures - wierwille as the puppet-master - collect all nine all the time.
you missed understanding that the way corps was created by wierwille based on the material in PFAL...the way corps program sucked because PFAL sucked because material plagiarized by an incompetent shyster who didn't know what he was doing sucks.
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T-Bone
from the perch of Ambassador One, he soaked up the adoration from his loyal followers - -
the new assistant said to him
"gee, that was a really creepy video you showed us at the pajama party last night"
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Nathan_Jr
"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching," - John Wooden, coach, led UCLA men's basketball to 10 NCAA national championships 1964-1975. (Did NOT invent the dunk shot.)
"[Your behavior that people don't see] doesn't matter, unless you believe it will." - victor paul wierwille, charlatan, 1973 Romans Corps Teaching Q&A with Loy Craig Martindale. (vpw claimed himself the inventor of the hook shot.)
Which one of these men would you have your children imitate? On whose shoulders would you have them stand? With whom would you leave your daughter alone for ten minutes?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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OldSkool
Then that is further proof that it never was a research department in the first place. It was intended to rubber stamp VPW's "research" and much of said research is blantantly false. Athletes of the spirit for example. The goals you listed verify that it was a rubber stamp department.
Thats another problem mike. the way international is not honest and neither was wierwille, they lied the entire time. But yet how many, many, many people did I tell the line "We are a Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry. Except no research and a shell of a research department.
Mike wierwille and the way international produced/produce putrid fruit.
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OldSkool
It doesnt have to be God inspired. Except in the mouth of two or three witnesses receive not an accusation against a Church leader....there are countless witnesses, first hand victim accounts such as Kristen Skedgell that wierwille used his position as a minister to seduce young, unsuspecting women: married or not. His own granddaughter told me of the card playing drunken revelry that went on in the wierwille home basement. All of the trustees lived lavishly on the abundant sharing...they looted it every chance they got. These arent rumors mike. Its sad people are telling you the truth and you stop your ears because it was VPW.
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OldSkool
So you fell for the good words and fair speeches part and continued to allow them to make merchandise of your faith.
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chockfull
We’re not impatient it is just that it’s ridiculous for you to take a year to get through a short book. It also illustrates that you only read what supports your idols. The ending is not spoiled it is a real story from a real Christian and ignoring it and calling her different names is wrong.
I don’t know what point you are making about 5-senses. Everybody has them including your idol. Christians worked in the research department with godly goals and intentions.
Yes VP approached research not with inductive reasoning seeking what it says of itself but deductive reasoning assuming his visions were true and looking for supporting evidence. That in itself is an admission there never was any genuine research in TWI. None by VP and due to his influence none by those he hired other than to shine up his theories.
Yet it didn’t work out that way - the Christians actually did genuine God inspired work, which caused friction with Wierwille as opposed to just going along with him. Walter did more of the go along to get along as he is part of Wierwilles extended family. All of the genuine Christians were fired, and the work taken credit for as authors by VP.
All of those 5 goals you listed for the research department are not goals that benefit the entire body of Christ, but benefit the setup of a cult and cult leadership.
The more you list the worse it looks.
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chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior.
No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program.
Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly.
What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry.
Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural.
Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce.
And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.
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Mike
I know for sure on several occasions he said that he could possibly terminate the Corps, but NOT the WoW program.
I never heard the version you wrote above.
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waysider
Threatening to terminate the Corps was a hollow, phony threat used to elicit loyalty.
The same exact tactic was used in FellowLaborers. (I was there.)
Terminating the WoW program, on the other hand, would have been a monumentally stupid business decision.
I mean, why on earth would you ever terminate an entire salesforce that was working without salary or commission?
Edited by waysidermissed a word/spelling
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chockfull
And since you were never in the Corps this means exactly nothing
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T-Bone
If you ask me the WOW program was a glorified trick to make PFAL grads think it’s biblical - spreading the gospel - but it’s just motivating them to get another PFAL class together…each one reach one new customer- sell them on the greatest con in the world today…always be closing.
if wierwille was genuinely interested in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, I think he should have instructed all his followers to share stuff out of the 4 gospels and how having a genuine dynamic transformative relationship with their Lord Jesus Christ changed their life - - instead of blabbing about the stupid PFAL class .
And the corps program is the mini-wierwille clone factory. “ we have ways of making you stick with PFAL”. Indoctrination on steroids! From the heart of our beloved cult-leader - - drop-shipped into a living room near you. Shipping charges (corps sponsorship is optional but highly recommended) will redeem blessings 10, 20 and a hundredfold of wadded up counterfeit money. Each one blood-let one.
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waysider
In my early, zealous days of Way involvement, I tried to pitch the idea of putting PFAL materials in public libraries.
Yeah, that went over like a fart in church choir.
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Nathan_Jr
It has, indeed, been documented that he made threats to terminate CORPS. If one doesn't accept the testimony provided here, one need only need victor paul wierwille's own letters to "his CORPS."
(I can't find the link now. I thought the letters were on eternallyblessed. Has it been whitewashed? Letters have no copyright protection. Does anyone have the link to this invaluable evidence??)
IIRC, he terminated one class of CORPS for a day or two, then hoovered them back and reinstated them. ZERO CORPS was a way to hang this threat over everyone's head.
Exactly. This is a typical manipulation and intimidation tactic of NPDs. It's about control. Control by threat. All narcissists do this. ALL. OF. THEM.
When a narcissist feels threatened, he will lash out with fear and hate. This is what victor did when vast swaths of people, especially CORPS, started leaving in the 1970's. See CORPS letters. The narc's greatest fear is being exposed, being found out for the fraud he is.
The narcissist hates the truth and hates those who know the truth. Those who are indifferent to the narc are mere empties, but sources of narc supply who begin to challenge the narc will find themselves the target of a campaign of destruction. And it all begins with mark and avoid.
When people started waking up to the stupidity of his doctrine and the sand of lies upon which his "ministry" was built, he felt threatened. The threat of abandonment is almost as serious as the threat of exposure. But the narc won't be abandoned by his supply!! No way. No how. "You can't quit. You're fired!"
Then the smear campaign starts against those the narc can no longer control, as with the Zero CORPS, as with those he spit on in the CORPS letters.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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WordWolf
In "vp and me", lcm documented vpw telling one corps class they were all kicked out, then quietly allowed them individually to rejoin, provided they swore more loyalty to him. According to lcm, MOST of them chose to do so.
The WOW program was remarkable for twi for not only being a free sales force for twi classes and tithing, not only for providing their own transportation and lodging wherever they were TOLD to go,
but for PAYING for the privilege! It cost money to go WOW.
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WordWolf
BTW,
If someone's trying to push the idea that they understand God better than I do, and that I should study with them or under them,
and one of the things they're trying to explain is why they aren't seeing miracles in their lives,
they're not going to get far with me.
If you're not seeing miracles, and you're supposedly a Christian, I'll tell you this for free- if you're looking to blame God Almighty, you're looking to place the blame where it doesn't belong.
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OldSkool
Man, say that again or several more times for the people in the back. Great point and I couldnt agree more.
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chockfull
I remember the days of people deciding to go Wow at the ROA and “believing” to get their money together to go.
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waysider
I remember the days of Fig Pep and familia.
Not all memories are equal.
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