I really wasnt even in this conversation and vouched for you being a real human, which people around here doubt because we have had "aggregate accounts" before where the account was used by a group of people, so would be no surprise that it happens again, but that's not you. You are real and sincere in posting here, I get that and realize I was wrong in my suspicions. And what do you do? You turn insulting and mean with me.
It is very difficult for me to keep track of the variations of style people have in discussions with me and about me.
I apologize for forgetting that you were the one who did seem to lighten up a few weeks ago in the antagonistic posting against me. I apologize for forgetting that you backed off the "aggregate account" idea.
It just is not possible for me to accurately sort out who has how many insults against me and who doesn't. I can't be on a stage like this with every sort of insult thrown my way, and be necessarily rough with an idiot here and then switch gears to be nice and gracious to the next poster who is also challenging me as strong as they can.
You just cited my getting a little rough with you, but have you ever taken note of the daily barrage of hoots, jeers, lies, exaggerations, and belittling that I must delete from my eyes HUNDREDS of time per month, maybe even per week.
Do you have any ideas how we can discuss these things where it is the ideas that are discussed? Can I come to you to complain when the insult atmosphere reaches a high? Do you care only about how you are handled? Or do you want to get some work done, where you simply endure some minor roughness that may crop up?
All I can say is most posters lately are really good at dishing it out, but when I get Righteously Pi$$ed everyone is suddenly a wallflower and shocked that I would fight back against all the crap.
In his final hours, vpw was seen searching his memory, determined to find some imperfection in his life in which God Almighty disapproved. He was unable to find it.
vpw went to his grave feeling NO remorse for being a sexual predator, let alone drunk, false prophet, etc.
You don't cite any source here.
That is very suspicious.
What pi$$es me off about how you assume I have an unrealistic ideal of the Christian lifestyle is that I don’t fault wierwille or Craig for being human – but for being pretentious, pontificating behind a double standard.
I totally get that and feel similarly. Less for VPW, because he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie." He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak. In 1985 he wrote on his grave's headstone "I wish I were the 'real deal' I know to be."
In 1986 it was the suppression of the MUCH NEEDED Schoenheit paper that disgusted me to the max. For the next 10 years I had lots of anger toward VPW and all the rest of top leadership. But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos. The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him. Meanwhile LCM and TWI continued to become much worse, at least at the top. It is wonderful that some cool people survived TWI-2 and TWI-3, and now are trying to do it better.
I figured that like David and Solomon, VPW had his good days when he walked well enough to help me immensely with the class. I figured he may have slipped up and gone comparatively inefficient in his later years. His health reflects this for those years.
I agree things went really bad, but I refuse to throw away the good, and I refuse to follow the bandwagon of hate that seeks to destroy the good, and befuddle many grads in the process, THUS EXTENDING THE BAD beyond the ministry and onto the Internet.
The attempted destruction of PFAL will fail. It will die when the last poster here dies. Meanwhile, those grads who can recognize the good will preserve it and pass it on to their families and friends. Too many people have the videos and the collaterals for PFAL to fade away. But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.
Please provide Biblical support for your assertion that God continues to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners.
Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way.... but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.
But we know of no other good things Balaam did. His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.
Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does. I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously. There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.
You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times. All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works. I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.
...he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie." He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak
Where might one find this?
(Not counting any feigned humility.)
16 minutes ago, Mike said:
But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.
It's not merely what was taught in PFAL. It's also (maybe even more so) the twisted behavior it caused us to incorporate into our lifestyles.
I totally get that and feel similarly. Less for VPW, because he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie." He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak. In 1985 he wrote on his grave's headstone "I wish I were the 'real deal' I know to be."
In 1986 it was the suppression of the MUCH NEEDED Schoenheit paper that disgusted me to the max. For the next 10 years I had lots of anger toward VPW and all the rest of top leadership. But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos. The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him. Meanwhile LCM and TWI continued to become much worse, at least at the top. It is wonderful that some cool people survived TWI-2 and TWI-3, and now are trying to do it better.
I figured that like David and Solomon, VPW had his good days when he walked well enough to help me immensely with the class. I figured he may have slipped up and gone comparatively inefficient in his later years. His health reflects this for those years.
I agree things went really bad, but I refuse to throw away the good, and I refuse to follow the bandwagon of hate that seeks to destroy the good, and befuddle many grads in the process, THUS EXTENDING THE BAD beyond the ministry and onto the Internet.
The attempted destruction of PFAL will fail. It will die when the last poster here dies. Meanwhile, those grads who can recognize the good will preserve it and pass it on to their families and friends. Too many people have the videos and the collaterals for PFAL to fade away. But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.
How is that holding onto the good of PFAL been working out for you?
Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way.... but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.
But we know of no other good things Balaam did. His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.
Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does. I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously. There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.
You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times. All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works. I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.
Sure Mike whatever you say
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,aputting them in chains of darknessbto be held for judgment;5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the fleshcand despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings;11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them fromdthe Lord.12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.e14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,fwho loved the wages of wickedness.16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”gand, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way.... but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.
But we know of no other good things Balaam did. His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.
Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does. I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously. There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.
You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times. All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works. I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.
Gee Mike, I wonder how Mrs. Wierwille and the kids felt about Vic’s persistent depraved behavior.
I wonder how way corps women felt sexually molested by “the teacher” of PFAL / president & founder of TWI / creator of the way corps program.
Mike, Sorry to be judgmental here - but I think you ought to be ashamed of how calloused you can be defending a creep like wierwille. I think there’s something out of whack with your scale of values - I may be grabbing at straws here but I feel God and Jesus Christ wouldn’t approve of your value system either.
A big failure in comprehension of the actual forgiveness given by God and paid for by Jesus Christ. To even get to this point takes intervention by the holy spirit. To really experience it this will change a person, from the heart. And affect every action afterwards.
A big failure in compression of the actual forgiveness given by God and paid for by Jesus Christ. To even get to this point takes intervention by the holy spirit. To really experience it this will change a person, from the heart. And affect every action afterwards.
Great post. So true, and that's been the reality in my life as well.
I apologize for forgetting that you were the one who did seem to lighten up a few weeks ago in the antagonistic posting against me. I apologize for forgetting that you backed off the "aggregate account" idea.
No worries, and thanks. I was wrong for being antogonistic and that's why I quit. I know you didn't ask, but my advice, (and I live this too) is remember this is just an internet forum. While, we are all emotionally invested in these topics, it's still an internet forum. When I start getting aggraveted I usually just walk away from the computer for a bit and come back with a fresh perspective. By doing this Ive found out that sometimes the problem is just me. Me being grumpy or whatever. Im not saying this about you by using myself as an example either. We disagree on many subjects but at the end of the day we both love God and are brothers in Christ. So theres that. I have no animosity towards you, or anybody really. Cyas around. Peace.
No worries, and thanks. I was wrong for being antogonistic and that's why I quit. I know you didn't ask, but my advice, (and I live this too) is remember this is just an internet forum. While, we are all emotionally invested in these topics, it's still an internet forum. When I start getting aggraveted I usually just walk away from the computer for a bit and come back with a fresh perspective. By doing this Ive found out that sometimes the problem is just me. Me being grumpy or whatever. Im not saying this about you by using myself as an example either. We disagree on many subjects but at the end of the day we both love God and are brothers in Christ.
So theres that. I have no animosity towards you, or anybody really. Cyas around. Peace.
Thank you MUCH for that.
Some good advice on separating simple ego anger from righteous anger.
It would be wonderful if a few other posters could calm down a little like you have proved you can do a few times.
*/*/*
I think GreaseSpot does a good job in laying down what went wrong in the entire ministry, but the pretended abilities to see into VPW's heart, or to see any repenting he did or did not do, is not real and does not exist, yet it is pretended daily.
In reckless zeal many here are under the illusion that if they soundly condemn VPW and PFAL then that will solve some of the problems he and especially his Rogue Corps Officers caused for us all. That reckless zeal really and truly throws out the wonderful baby God gave us along with the bathwater.
The criticisms of the class and collaterals here constantly shows me that most of the criticizers, though experts in the bathwater, have no deep understanding of the class.
*/*/*/*
This "parallel" thing soundly illustrates how many of the great criticisms come from people who were not so dedicated to get the doctrine of the class WELL understood when they first took it and the years thereafter.
In my early days no one but me asked detailed questions like WHY the word "parallel" is used. I got my answers as I sought them, but I was the Lone Ranger in my circles back then.
What I saw in my growing up in the ministry was very few grads pushing themselves systematically to get it all accurate.People took classes often just so they could take the AC, possibly for the status and not the knowledge.
Lots of grads were not that hungry for all the details; I was; they gently mocked me for it.I didn’t mind; I prayed they would get more interested later.What I saw them most interested in was the rich social club the ministry was at times and in some places. Many grads never read their Bibles except in fellowship.
I also saw some grads gravitate to enter the Corps very quickly after taking the class, and many I suspected were more interested in bossing people around or having a Reverend status someday.
I have MUCH deeper Word conversations with grads here at GreaseSpot than I did back then, because most grads had not really focused that much on the actual teachings.Here lots of focus is on the teachings, but with the wrong intentions IMO of destroying them and not to absorb, use, and pass on to others.
In the old days I had to wait for a real research leader to swing by so I could get out my lists of questions. I bonded early with Walter. I had to wait for big events to ask questions, while others were socializing mostly.
What happened is all these grads with shallow study habits were totally blown away when the troubles came.It was the parable of “the sower and the seeds” going on bigtime.
Very few really sought the deep knowledge systematically, and I sense that characterizes the most vehement and diligent critics of both bathwater with baby.
I recommend that posters calm down, get more civil, and concentrate on useful constructive criticism, dropping the hate, and Old School, I would love to see you help.
There is a receptive TWI-4 ear that I have access to.I want to help them change their practices and attitudes, as they are already actively doing that very thing themselves.We here at GreaseSpot could assist them if we turned this site into a source of good constructive criticism for how things were and/or done at TWI now.
I recommend GreaseSpotters turn their gun-sights on the bad practices and procedures and TVTs, and back off on the class and collaterals.
The latest round over ONE WORD (parallel) being lame in the film class is crazy.Everyone got the meaning of the needs and wants teaching in spite of that one word, and then it got immediately corrected in the PFAL book a couple of years later.
Why waste time mocking and jeering that needs and wants teaching over that one word?
Why not look at CURRENT practices and procedures at TWI that are actually a real problem, while they are open and humble to listen.When they perceived that I loved them and wanted to help (and not hurt),they opened up to me and showed they know they have needed repairs to do.
I am currently maneuvering with a few Innies on how to handle writing an honest and full-enough history of VPW to make LOVING admissions in writing about his admittedly bad behavior at times. Very few here are able to do that, but maybe in time more can.
I recommend posters give up the assault on PFAL and try to learn it more deeply.
We can discuss here the confusing or the suspicious looking doctrines we were given without prejudging them.If everyone would stand back and look at that one tiny word “parallel” and quit using it to mock and jeer at a perfectly good doctrine that everyone understands, then THAT would be helpful to others. It was only that one word that was misunderstood; only one idiosyncratic word in VPW's vocabulary.
It is time for GreaseSpotters to step back and re-think needs and wants without the distraction of that one word.This should be done with all the other questionable doctrines: ask questions and learn the deeper things in the collaterals that were not deeply learned long ago.
And please turn off the mindless ill-informed attacks on the baby, and turn on loving constructive criticism.
It's not merely what was taught in PFAL. It's also (maybe even more so) the twisted behavior it caused us to incorporate into our lifestyles.
My experience is that it was MUCH MORE SO in personal practices that things went wrong. The film class and collaterals were good. Their dangers are an illusion. Much did go wrong in how individuals conducted themselves.
Nope - Solomon and David were repentant...wierwille was a repeat-offender of epic proportions !
We all are repeat offenders.
You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.
You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.
Your heart is known only to God. Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death.
You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.
When I look at the fruit in MY LIFE that came from PFAL and the collaterals, I know for sure VPW was God's spokesman.
I have a hard time looking at the fruit in someone else's life. I can't see the fruit in your life and you cant see mine. Neither of us can see the fruit in VPW's life, especially now, 38 years after his death.
But you can very well see the fruit in YOUR OWN LIFE!
Do you member ANYTHING going well for you after you first took the class? Have these years at GSC ploughed over all those good memories.
I really think you are forgetting the great good that happened in your life when first taking PFAL and learning your Bible. Otherwise why would you take more classes? Why would you sign up others for the class? Why would you serve as a leader? You MUST have had good fruit that you are forgetting.
You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.
You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.
Your heart is known only to God. Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death.
You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.
Nope ! you're wrong - got the goods on wierwille as an unrepentant big time exceeding abundantly above all that inner demons could ask or think sinner of epic proportions:
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.
It is when they STOP being willfully stubborn and unrepentant long enough to admit TO GOD that they were in sin.
and do you know when wierwille stopped his deplorable behavior?
oh check it out wierwille's # 1 fan - Scripture says we prove we have repented of our sins and turned to God by the way we live - it's walking the talk, Mike - not talking up a good walk :
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.
ol' wierwille didn't even try to be a good person!
- - - didn't even try, Mike !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you are to be pitied for loving the $hit out of a dead idol !
What gives?
Why have you invested so much in a wolf in sheep's clothing?
Have a heart - think about all his victims, his wife and kids, the genuine Christians who thought they were following a genuine minister of God.
22 minutes ago, Mike said:
If we confess [admit] our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
ok if you're speaking about yourself.
no one can speak for wierwille. he be daid.
I hope for the sake of his eternal soul he repented on his death bed. I wouldn't want to wish the punishment he deserves from the God of justice for all the people he victimized.
Sadly, you favor the advice God gave to his sheep who had no spirit, and dismiss the MUCH better arrangement Jesus bought for us in the new birth.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Now, after being cleansed this way, THEN some repenting with fruitful new right behavior is the RIGHT THING to do next. It will help in avoiding repeat offenses, and it can help others with trusting the sinner again if they were affected by the sin.
No one can have a power walk with God and do a juggling act with being in and out of fellowship.
I suspect there were times in VPW's life when he was relatively powerless, compared to his spiritual abilities earlier in his life. Like David and Saul, the riches of the ministry may have softened him and he was less effective in his later days. Bouncing back and sticking in sustained fellowship gets harder and harder, the longer the juggling act continues.
I see VPW possibly wasting much of his later years on the Corps, and then trying to fix things in his very last few years. What he did to make the class and most of the collaterals in those early years tells me he had lots of sustained fellowship in those very early years... and a lot less riches to distract.
It doesn't really matter what word you use, whether it be parallel, balanced, synchronized, aligned or whatever. The essence of the problem is that it's a flawed, erroneous concept.
It also doesn't matter that we can never know what was or wasn't in Wierwille's heart. What we do know is that his atrocious behavior and promotion of an aberrant doctrinal brought about immeasurable damage to thousands of trusting individuals.
Lives were damaged, some beyond repair. Some met an even worse, permanent fate and will never get a second chance.
This is not a game. It's a chance to either set the record straight or be complicit in the furtherance of a travesty.
Sadly, you favor the advice God gave to his sheep who had no spirit, and dismiss the MUCH better arrangement Jesus bought for us in the new birth.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Now, after being cleansed this way, THEN some repenting with fruitful new right behavior is the RIGHT THING to do next. It will help in avoiding repeat offenses, and it can help others with trusting the sinner again if they were affected by the sin.
No one can have a power walk with God and do a juggling act with being in and out of fellowship.
I suspect there were times in VPW's life when he was relatively powerless, compared to his spiritual abilities earlier in his life. Like David and Saul, the riches of the ministry may have softened him and he was less effective in his later days. Bouncing back and sticking in sustained fellowship gets harder and harder, the longer the juggling act continues.
I see VPW possibly wasting much of his later years on the Corps, and then trying to fix things in his very last few years. What he did to make the class and most of the collaterals in those early years tells me he had lots of sustained fellowship in those very early years... and a lot less riches to distract.
sorry Mike - pulling the bogus dispensationalism card doesn't work in this game!
proving you've repented by how you live appears elsewhere in the NT
New Living Translation Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
you lose once again at trying to defend a wolf in sheep's clothing
You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.
You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.
Your heart is known only to God. Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death.
You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.
what false facts ?!?!?!
you're hilarious, Mike
The Bible said we prove we've repented of sins and turned to God by the way we live - behavior - something that is visible to others - like wierwille plagiarizing the works of others - that's a fact! like sexually molesting way corps women - the victim's testimonies - facts !
don't have to wait for the judgement seat - the verdict is already in for unrepentant sinners who were slaves to life-dominating sins :
New International Version But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”...Revelation 21:8
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Mike
It is very difficult for me to keep track of the variations of style people have in discussions with me and about me.
I apologize for forgetting that you were the one who did seem to lighten up a few weeks ago in the antagonistic posting against me. I apologize for forgetting that you backed off the "aggregate account" idea.
It just is not possible for me to accurately sort out who has how many insults against me and who doesn't. I can't be on a stage like this with every sort of insult thrown my way, and be necessarily rough with an idiot here and then switch gears to be nice and gracious to the next poster who is also challenging me as strong as they can.
You just cited my getting a little rough with you, but have you ever taken note of the daily barrage of hoots, jeers, lies, exaggerations, and belittling that I must delete from my eyes HUNDREDS of time per month, maybe even per week.
Do you have any ideas how we can discuss these things where it is the ideas that are discussed? Can I come to you to complain when the insult atmosphere reaches a high? Do you care only about how you are handled? Or do you want to get some work done, where you simply endure some minor roughness that may crop up?
All I can say is most posters lately are really good at dishing it out, but when I get Righteously Pi$$ed everyone is suddenly a wallflower and shocked that I would fight back against all the crap.
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Mike
You don't cite any source here.
That is very suspicious.
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Mike
I totally get that and feel similarly. Less for VPW, because he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie." He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak. In 1985 he wrote on his grave's headstone "I wish I were the 'real deal' I know to be."
In 1986 it was the suppression of the MUCH NEEDED Schoenheit paper that disgusted me to the max. For the next 10 years I had lots of anger toward VPW and all the rest of top leadership. But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos. The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him. Meanwhile LCM and TWI continued to become much worse, at least at the top. It is wonderful that some cool people survived TWI-2 and TWI-3, and now are trying to do it better.
I figured that like David and Solomon, VPW had his good days when he walked well enough to help me immensely with the class. I figured he may have slipped up and gone comparatively inefficient in his later years. His health reflects this for those years.
I agree things went really bad, but I refuse to throw away the good, and I refuse to follow the bandwagon of hate that seeks to destroy the good, and befuddle many grads in the process, THUS EXTENDING THE BAD beyond the ministry and onto the Internet.
The attempted destruction of PFAL will fail. It will die when the last poster here dies. Meanwhile, those grads who can recognize the good will preserve it and pass it on to their families and friends. Too many people have the videos and the collaterals for PFAL to fade away. But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.
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Mike
Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way.... but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy.
But we know of no other good things Balaam did. His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God.
Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does. I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously. There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years.
You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times. All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works. I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.
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waysider
Where might one find this?
(Not counting any feigned humility.)
It's not merely what was taught in PFAL. It's also (maybe even more so) the twisted behavior it caused us to incorporate into our lifestyles.
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waysider
By their fruit you shall know them.
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T-Bone
How is that holding onto the good of PFAL been working out for you?
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T-Bone
Sure Mike whatever you say
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, a putting them in chains of darkness b to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the fleshc and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from d the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, f who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
iI Peter 2
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T-Bone
Gee Mike, I wonder how Mrs. Wierwille and the kids felt about Vic’s persistent depraved behavior.
I wonder how way corps women felt sexually molested by “the teacher” of PFAL / president & founder of TWI / creator of the way corps program.
Mike , Sorry to be judgmental here - but I think you ought to be ashamed of how calloused you can be defending a creep like wierwille. I think there’s something out of whack with your scale of values - I may be grabbing at straws here but I feel God and Jesus Christ wouldn’t approve of your value system either.
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cman
A big failure in comprehension of the actual forgiveness given by God and paid for by Jesus Christ. To even get to this point takes intervention by the holy spirit. To really experience it this will change a person, from the heart. And affect every action afterwards.
Edited by cmanMisspelled comprehension
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OldSkool
Great post. So true, and that's been the reality in my life as well.
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OldSkool
No worries, and thanks. I was wrong for being antogonistic and that's why I quit. I know you didn't ask, but my advice, (and I live this too) is remember this is just an internet forum. While, we are all emotionally invested in these topics, it's still an internet forum. When I start getting aggraveted I usually just walk away from the computer for a bit and come back with a fresh perspective. By doing this Ive found out that sometimes the problem is just me. Me being grumpy or whatever. Im not saying this about you by using myself as an example either. We disagree on many subjects but at the end of the day we both love God and are brothers in Christ. So theres that. I have no animosity towards you, or anybody really. Cyas around. Peace.
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Mike
Thank you MUCH for that.
Some good advice on separating simple ego anger from righteous anger.
It would be wonderful if a few other posters could calm down a little like you have proved you can do a few times.
*/*/*
I think GreaseSpot does a good job in laying down what went wrong in the entire ministry, but the pretended abilities to see into VPW's heart, or to see any repenting he did or did not do, is not real and does not exist, yet it is pretended daily.
In reckless zeal many here are under the illusion that if they soundly condemn VPW and PFAL then that will solve some of the problems he and especially his Rogue Corps Officers caused for us all. That reckless zeal really and truly throws out the wonderful baby God gave us along with the bathwater.
The criticisms of the class and collaterals here constantly shows me that most of the criticizers, though experts in the bathwater, have no deep understanding of the class.
*/*/*/*
This "parallel" thing soundly illustrates how many of the great criticisms come from people who were not so dedicated to get the doctrine of the class WELL understood when they first took it and the years thereafter.
In my early days no one but me asked detailed questions like WHY the word "parallel" is used. I got my answers as I sought them, but I was the Lone Ranger in my circles back then.
What I saw in my growing up in the ministry was very few grads pushing themselves systematically to get it all accurate. People took classes often just so they could take the AC, possibly for the status and not the knowledge.
Lots of grads were not that hungry for all the details; I was; they gently mocked me for it. I didn’t mind; I prayed they would get more interested later. What I saw them most interested in was the rich social club the ministry was at times and in some places. Many grads never read their Bibles except in fellowship.
I also saw some grads gravitate to enter the Corps very quickly after taking the class, and many I suspected were more interested in bossing people around or having a Reverend status someday.
I have MUCH deeper Word conversations with grads here at GreaseSpot than I did back then, because most grads had not really focused that much on the actual teachings. Here lots of focus is on the teachings, but with the wrong intentions IMO of destroying them and not to absorb, use, and pass on to others.
In the old days I had to wait for a real research leader to swing by so I could get out my lists of questions. I bonded early with Walter. I had to wait for big events to ask questions, while others were socializing mostly.
What happened is all these grads with shallow study habits were totally blown away when the troubles came. It was the parable of “the sower and the seeds” going on bigtime.
Very few really sought the deep knowledge systematically, and I sense that characterizes the most vehement and diligent critics of both bathwater with baby.
I recommend that posters calm down, get more civil, and concentrate on useful constructive criticism, dropping the hate, and Old School, I would love to see you help.
There is a receptive TWI-4 ear that I have access to. I want to help them change their practices and attitudes, as they are already actively doing that very thing themselves. We here at GreaseSpot could assist them if we turned this site into a source of good constructive criticism for how things were and/or done at TWI now.
I recommend GreaseSpotters turn their gun-sights on the bad practices and procedures and TVTs, and back off on the class and collaterals.
The latest round over ONE WORD (parallel) being lame in the film class is crazy. Everyone got the meaning of the needs and wants teaching in spite of that one word, and then it got immediately corrected in the PFAL book a couple of years later.
Why waste time mocking and jeering that needs and wants teaching over that one word?
Why not look at CURRENT practices and procedures at TWI that are actually a real problem, while they are open and humble to listen. When they perceived that I loved them and wanted to help (and not hurt), they opened up to me and showed they know they have needed repairs to do.
I am currently maneuvering with a few Innies on how to handle writing an honest and full-enough history of VPW to make LOVING admissions in writing about his admittedly bad behavior at times. Very few here are able to do that, but maybe in time more can.
I recommend posters give up the assault on PFAL and try to learn it more deeply.
We can discuss here the confusing or the suspicious looking doctrines we were given without prejudging them. If everyone would stand back and look at that one tiny word “parallel” and quit using it to mock and jeer at a perfectly good doctrine that everyone understands, then THAT would be helpful to others. It was only that one word that was misunderstood; only one idiosyncratic word in VPW's vocabulary.
It is time for GreaseSpotters to step back and re-think needs and wants without the distraction of that one word. This should be done with all the other questionable doctrines: ask questions and learn the deeper things in the collaterals that were not deeply learned long ago.
And please turn off the mindless ill-informed attacks on the baby, and turn on loving constructive criticism.
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Mike
My experience is that it was MUCH MORE SO in personal practices that things went wrong. The film class and collaterals were good. Their dangers are an illusion. Much did go wrong in how individuals conducted themselves.
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Mike
Oops! Double post
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Mike
We all are repeat offenders.
You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance.
You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years.
Your heart is known only to God. Aren't you glad about that?
You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death.
You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.
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Mike
It is when they STOP being willfully stubborn and unrepentant long enough to admit TO GOD that they were in sin.
If we confess [admit] our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
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Mike
When I look at the fruit in MY LIFE that came from PFAL and the collaterals, I know for sure VPW was God's spokesman.
I have a hard time looking at the fruit in someone else's life. I can't see the fruit in your life and you cant see mine. Neither of us can see the fruit in VPW's life, especially now, 38 years after his death.
But you can very well see the fruit in YOUR OWN LIFE!
Do you member ANYTHING going well for you after you first took the class? Have these years at GSC ploughed over all those good memories.
I really think you are forgetting the great good that happened in your life when first taking PFAL and learning your Bible. Otherwise why would you take more classes? Why would you sign up others for the class? Why would you serve as a leader? You MUST have had good fruit that you are forgetting.
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T-Bone
Nope ! you're wrong - got the goods on wierwille as an unrepentant big time exceeding abundantly above all that inner demons could ask or think sinner of epic proportions:
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.
Matthew 3:8 NLT
He proved by the way he lived a grossly depraved lifestyle that he never repented of his sins NOR turned to God.
I covered this in a previous session of your crass budgetary class on bar room double doors.
shame on you for sleeping through that session
for your penance do a chapter report on something you read in Undertow
if not Mike - who? if not now - when will he do it?
Edited by T-Bonethe inner editor
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T-Bone
and do you know when wierwille stopped his deplorable behavior?
oh check it out wierwille's # 1 fan - Scripture says we prove we have repented of our sins and turned to God by the way we live - it's walking the talk, Mike - not talking up a good walk :
Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.
Matthew 3:8 NLT
ol' wierwille didn't even try to be a good person!
- - - didn't even try, Mike !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you are to be pitied for loving the $hit out of a dead idol !
What gives?
Why have you invested so much in a wolf in sheep's clothing?
Have a heart - think about all his victims, his wife and kids, the genuine Christians who thought they were following a genuine minister of God.
ok if you're speaking about yourself.
no one can speak for wierwille. he be daid.
I hope for the sake of his eternal soul he repented on his death bed. I wouldn't want to wish the punishment he deserves from the God of justice for all the people he victimized.
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Mike
Sadly, you favor the advice God gave to his sheep who had no spirit, and dismiss the MUCH better arrangement Jesus bought for us in the new birth.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Now, after being cleansed this way, THEN some repenting with fruitful new right behavior is the RIGHT THING to do next. It will help in avoiding repeat offenses, and it can help others with trusting the sinner again if they were affected by the sin.
No one can have a power walk with God and do a juggling act with being in and out of fellowship.
I suspect there were times in VPW's life when he was relatively powerless, compared to his spiritual abilities earlier in his life. Like David and Saul, the riches of the ministry may have softened him and he was less effective in his later days. Bouncing back and sticking in sustained fellowship gets harder and harder, the longer the juggling act continues.
I see VPW possibly wasting much of his later years on the Corps, and then trying to fix things in his very last few years. What he did to make the class and most of the collaterals in those early years tells me he had lots of sustained fellowship in those very early years... and a lot less riches to distract.
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waysider
It doesn't really matter what word you use, whether it be parallel, balanced, synchronized, aligned or whatever. The essence of the problem is that it's a flawed, erroneous concept.
It also doesn't matter that we can never know what was or wasn't in Wierwille's heart. What we do know is that his atrocious behavior and promotion of an aberrant doctrinal brought about immeasurable damage to thousands of trusting individuals.
Lives were damaged, some beyond repair. Some met an even worse, permanent fate and will never get a second chance.
This is not a game. It's a chance to either set the record straight or be complicit in the furtherance of a travesty.
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T-Bone
sorry Mike - pulling the bogus dispensationalism card doesn't work in this game!
proving you've repented by how you live appears elsewhere in the NT
New Living Translation
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
you lose once again at trying to defend a wolf in sheep's clothing
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T-Bone
what false facts ?!?!?!
you're hilarious, Mike
The Bible said we prove we've repented of sins and turned to God by the way we live - behavior - something that is visible to others - like wierwille plagiarizing the works of others - that's a fact! like sexually molesting way corps women - the victim's testimonies - facts !
don't have to wait for the judgement seat - the verdict is already in for unrepentant sinners who were slaves to life-dominating sins :
New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”...Revelation 21:8
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