BTW, Mike imagines there's a big audience of readers out there...
I see most of them coming here to read in the future, maybe after we area dead.
I pray you will someday be able to see your way through this thicket and remember the good parts in PFAL where God got through to you, learn to set aside the bad parts, and see more of the good then ever before.
I am praying that you may someday in that reading audience for a while and that it helps you to come back to PFAL and celebrate it unencumbered by all the crap of the past.
I see most of them coming here to read in the future, maybe after we area dead.
I pray you will someday be able to see your way through this thicket and remember the good parts in PFAL where God got through to you, learn to set aside the bad parts, and see more of the good then ever before.
I am praying that you may someday in that reading audience for a while and that it helps you to come back to PFAL and celebrate it unencumbered by all the crap of the past.
Some people view Charles Manson the same way. If you could only set aside the bad parts and see the good.
The Wilson sisters from Heart seem to have this kind of undying connection to Charlie.
Most however let that fantasy slide after watching or reading helter skelter.
Some are just blind to any criticism or objective evaluation…
BTW, Mike imagines there's a big audience of readers out there who are all in accord with Mike, and not, say, spectating a fantastic car wreck.
IF such a thing were true, Mike would be doing this (imaginary) crowd a disservice by only allowing them to read his posts on the GSC.
Mike would set up his own board where they could read unadulterated Mike and cheer him on and so on. Then he could focus his time and effort on THEM.
That he spends the time here instead says a lot. (Mainly, that there's no "them" trying to become Mike's disciples.)
Right on. Im also thinking, from my own time as a good little wayfer, that mike imaginies he is battling devil spirits with the information we post. I mean, disagreements with wierwille always pointed to posession. So we are likely all hate filled, devil posessed cop outs and mike is here exercising his prowess in the spiritual competition. I saw, and participatied, in that delusional behavior my entire time in TWI. Example: Walmart witnessing, (silly made up example that actually happened ad infinitum) as I have a copy of golf digest (I hate golf) at the magazine aisle as I try and creep my way into a conversation I can turn to the class...finally I make eye contact and ask the person reading sport illustrated if they are an athelete...I then pounce and start preaching the spiritual competition....as they walk away hurriedly from the wacko reading golf digest who hates golf....I suddenly exercise discerning of spirits and realize that the guy who was reading sports illustrated and ran from me trying to preach the spiritual competition...is....posessed! See -- spiritual matrurity.
He starts off with both palms facing up, hands 12 inches apart, and at the same height.
One hand represents the Left seat of the see-saw or the Left tray in the balance. He says that is needs.
The other hand represents the Right seat of the see-saw or the Right tray in the balance. He says that is wants.
Both needs and wants are a parallel in this picture he says. As he says it, his hands are at the same level.
Martindale danced around with fake devil spirits on stage while wearing spandex. So what wierwille was a dancing monkey in the video who was too stupid to use the correct word to describe a scale being balanced and used the word parallel instead. Should come as no surprise as there are consequences to mail in doctorates.
BTW - needs and wants dont need to be balanced either, thats utter bullshonta and you are using it to cover your @$$. But for the sake of argument: If needs and wants need to be balanced then thats an equal sized load of bullshonta that balances out with the bullshonta parallel concept. The burden of proof is on you. Show me one verse that says needs and wants need to be balanced before God can provide. So I have to have equal parts of need and equal parts want before I can receive anything from God....where you guys get this crap from? a spiritual coolbook? I can imagine the counsel now: Oldskool, to receive anything from God you have to have 1/3 cup of need exactly proportioned to 1/3 cup of want and those portions must be exactly parallel. Now, if you need something you don't want then God can't provide it, or if you want something you don't need then God can't provide it..
.........my Lord you can't make this stuff up...next thing you know mike will come along and tell us he re-watched the video (of course by candlelight in a dark room with pictures of VPW and his little bronze statue nearby) and he has proof that needs and wants must be parallell because wierwille was wearing black socks in the video so therefore the definitions of parallel and balanced are now kind of a hybrid where to balance anything the opposing items need to be parallel and equally portioned.
The mathematical geomoetry is mind blowing...lo bullshonta mogadishu malakas many hypotenuse.
Oh boy, I missed this little jewel....I better post it up real quick before I forget what I was gonna post.... So to receive anything from God I need to have my needs and lusts paralell, or balanced, or balanced and paralell...I mean nevermind scripture tells us lusts are evil. So if I covet my neighbors wife but that covetousness is balanced out with my genuine need for sexual relations then God will provide my neighbors wife because my lust and needs are balanced. Now I understand wierwille, he was right all along for being a sexual predator and serial adulterer. Thanks!
You make this crap up as you go? Or you really pulling it all from the collateral damage books and pflappy?
You are too much the stickler on exact vocabulary.
I wonder if this argument would hold up in court....I mean words have meaning and language is set up on various rules and such, but hey, lets redefine words and break the rules of language to hold up our bronzed idols shall we! Cmon sing along..roll awa roll away every burden on your hear roll away...song along now!
I joined TWI in 74 because I thought wierwille was the real deal.
I left in 86 because I realized he was a phony.
You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.
You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?
Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother?
You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.
Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.
A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing.
I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all.
Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.
But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.
*/*/*/*/*
You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.
Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately?
Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Have you given up on the real deal being possible?
You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.
There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.
You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.
You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?
Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother?
You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.
Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.
A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing.
I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all.
Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.
But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.
*/*/*/*/*
You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.
Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately?
Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Have you given up on the real deal being possible?
You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.
There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.
Same old load of horse spit I had to listen to, all the way back in 1975, when I voiced concern over the direction of the FellowLaborer program. Substitute the name of any infamous villain from the past (Dahmer, Gacy, Manson, Stalin...) and try to justify their actions using the same line of reasoning. Wierwille wasn't "one of the good guys". It's really just that simple.
You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.
You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?
Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother?
You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.
Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.
A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing.
I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all.
Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.
But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.
*/*/*/*/*
You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.
Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately?
Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Have you given up on the real deal being possible?
You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.
There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research.
isolation from other Christians, rote mechanics in place of worship manifestations, conspiracy theory, lack of sexual boundaries (Schoenheit adultery paper), and wrong dividing of scripture to introduce spiritual abuse via the all powerful leadership.
The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side.
What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error.
Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.
The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side.
What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error.
Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.
Agreed.
I would tweak that last statement, though, to note that his personal behavior functioned as instruction by example and, thus, encouraged others to indulge in harmful behavior as well..
I would tweak that last statement, though, to note that his personal behavior functioned as instruction by example and, thus, encouraged others to indulge in harmful behavior as well..
That's is precisely what I experienced and observed my entire time in twi. Both way corps, especially way corps, but Joe disciple as well.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
Sorry it doesnt work that way mikey. If you repent of sin you not only ask forgiveness but one is to bring forth fruits meet for repentance and the biggest point being cease from said sin. How did that play out with wierwille? The only things that ceased his trips to the motorcoach to boink his victims (that his wife knew was happening - they all knew) was either hi health, or his death. This whole idea of jumping in and out of the spotlight of fellowship is utterly preposterous and invented by a guy (wierwille) who was so ensconsed in his sins that they were a way of life complete with bible verses wrapped around his actions to provide him his rationailazation to continue to the point that his conscience became seared with a hot iron. My bet is he felt NO remorse for being a sexual predator, drunk, false prophet, etc. And he taught others to do the same. thus propagating the horror show another generation before martindale got busted and became Fox (Rosalie Fox Rivenbark) and Donna's fall guy.
You folks constantly complain and criticize and mock what you do not understand in the class and collaterals.In some other more removed areas, you all do have some valid complaints and criticisms.
But the more you mock the class with ignorant punches, the more I am able to see through your lame mocking and insulting of me
We refute the class because the class is riddled with contradictions and error and you resort to typical way international bullying tactiics.
Allow me to elucidate:
The poor ole me crap is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The blaming the victims card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The resort to insults when challenged card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The superiority complex card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The attack other's faith as if it's not genuine card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
All you wierwille-ites can do when legitametely challenged is turn hostile and then blame the one who raised the issue for wierwille's shortcomings. So you do what all good wafers do, you go on the attack then play the victim card when people stand up to it and then charge everybody with being stupid and hateful. An accusation that leaves three fingers pointing at yourself.
I really wasnt even in this conversation and vouched for you being a real human, which people around here doubt because we have had "aggregate accounts" before where the account was used by a group of people, so would be no surprise that it happens again, but that's not you. You are real and sincere in posting here, I get that and realize I was wrong in my suspicions. And what do you do? You turn insulting and mean with me. So, you wanna go, let's go. We both know you lack the reasoning and debate skills to carry on an intelligent, calm, reasonable discussion on the matters. Its doubtful you will concede wierwille is wrong on anything and may well goto your grave convinced of his con game. You can't say you were never told otherwise.
Mike: "You are too much the stickler on exact vocabulary."
Whatever happened to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision", and "God has a purpose for everything He says, how He says it, to whom He says it..." vpw pushed being a stickler on exact vocabulary.
Of course, since he was wrong, we don't have to obsess, but since you insist he was right, you're supposed to agree with him and push FOR being a stickler.
Sorry it doesnt work that way mikey. If you repent of sin you not only ask forgiveness but one is to bring forth fruits meet for repentance and the biggest point being cease from said sin. How did that play out with wierwille? The only things that ceased his trips to the motorcoach to boink his victims (that his wife knew was happening - they all knew) was either hi health, or his death. This whole idea of jumping in and out of the spotlight of fellowship is utterly preposterous and invented by a guy (wierwille) who was so ensconsed in his sins that they were a way of life complete with bible verses wrapped around his actions to provide him his rationailazation to continue to the point that his conscience became seared with a hot iron. My bet is he felt NO remorse for being a sexual predator, drunk, false prophet, etc. And he taught others to do the same. thus propagating the horror show another generation before martindale got busted and became Fox (Rosalie Fox Rivenbark) and Donna's fall guy.
In his final hours, vpw was seen searching his memory, determined to find some imperfection in his life in which God Almighty disapproved. He was unable to find it.
vpw went to his grave feeling NO remorse for being a sexual predator, let alone drunk, false prophet, etc.
You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.
You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?
Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother?
You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.
Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.
A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing.
I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all.
Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.
But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.
*/*/*/*/*
You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.
Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately?
Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Have you given up on the real deal being possible?
You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.
There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.
Mike, my dear Brother we are so close it’s not even funny.
About the only thing I really disagree with you on is your assumption I’m doing black & white thinking or absolute thinking. I used to think that way – but since I left TWI I’ve been working on broadening the spectrum – which gives me a wider range of options to think about and choose from – like this monochromatic value scale:
~ ~ ~ ~
Polarized, black-and-white thinking is a big problem. It distorts our understanding of realities involving shades of gray, which most human realities are. Binary thinking produces misleading maps of a complicated, nuanced world.
When we face difficult situations, all-or-none thinking blinds us to the possibility of a middle ground, leaving us with only simple, extreme options that rarely work. This type of cognition results in maladaptive emotions and behaviors, an array of mental health diagnoses too numerous to mention, and in its milder and more common forms, all sorts of problems in living and relationships.
Everyone engages in black and white thinking sometimes, because it is quicker and easier than careful consideration of a spectrum of possibilities. Problems arise when we rely on it too much, especially in dealing with emotionally important situations, issues and relationships.
Persistent problems in a particular life area suggest that some kind of dichotomous thinking is going on below the surface, driving the ineffective functioning. This is especially true when extreme emotions and/or behaviors occur, because these are the hallmarks of polarized cognition.
I am no different than you Mike. I don’t have this Hollywood idea of the Christian lifestyle. I have a realistic idea of the Christian lifestyle. My day-to-day ‘interior’ living is an irregular pattern of switching back and forth between black and white thinking and a monochromatic value scale– but now after being out of TWI for some 37 years, it’s using the monochromatic value scale much morethan using black and white thinking.
As an example of before and after in self-examination:
Recapping the extraordinary details of T-Bone’s Exciting Escape from Crazy Town > TBEEFCT episode whatever first aired 5/04/2023 1:04 AM , remember new episodes drop each time big-wierwille-fans drop the ball, streaming exclusively on Grease Spot TV cue the theme music and text “the more you know”:
1986: I left in 1986 from having a strong sense of disillusionment because of the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and WOW program to fulfill declared goals. There was also the constant accumulation of red flags when I observed inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented. Without realizing it at the time, Mike – I was doing what I always did in TWI – using black and white thinking to judge myself and others. 12 years of ignoring red flags with the last two years of being in-residence way corps to see wierwille and Craig’s darker side, unguarded moments and connecting the dots of sexually molested women who kept a stiff upper lip and get on with the program. Yeah, I was furious. Outraged! How dare these hypocrites demand I walk the talk but not themselves.
1986 – 2023: Mike, I’m a lot harsher and more judgmental on myself than you will ever know. And I cut everyone a lot more slack than you may think.
What pi$$es me off about how you assume I have an unrealistic ideal of the Christian lifestyle is that I don’t fault wierwille or Craig for being human – but for being pretentious, pontificating behind a double standard. I think very highly of anyone who bravely and honestly admits they have a problem and tries to do something about it. Like an alcoholic joining AA.
I’ve been married some 47 years and have never cheated on my wife. But Jesus doesn’t cut me any slack when He saidBut I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart….Matthew 5:28 NIV
I’m an old fart now and don’t have the drive I used to – and I’m too embarrassed…ashamed…to reveal the times I’ve committed adultery in my heart…
and let me just say my wife satisfies me completely in the 3 types of love (agape, phileo, eros) - so what can I say in my defense? I used to be a greedy horny little ba$tard. - but long ago I decided it’s better to please God and honor my Lord Jesus Christ…for me it’s been more of a spiritual battle within than without - now I’m pretty good about heading the temptation off at pass - - so the battle gets easier…so much for letting you in on my sinful nature.. .got better at nipping those thoughts in the bud and I have had andcontinue to have long talks with close friends – believers usually - on this issue I have. I want to do better.
Mike, these are the comparisons I get into evaluating what I do versus what hypocrites like wierwille, and Craig did. At least I try to do better in watching what I think about and how I interact with women other than my wife - - and - - so far in 47 years of marriage - -I have not consummated my lustful thoughts of another woman which would do even more harm to others – the repercussions of to my wife and kids, to the woman’s life – and if she’s married and has kids, the consequences hit them too.
One last thought. I talked about a love / hate relationship I have with wierwille and Craig on another thread. Folks who use black and white thinking don’t understand how that’s possible. Maybe it’s because they see the love / hate relationship in equal parts – 50% love and 50% hate. I don’t think that’s the way our minds usually work - or we’d be immobilized by strong and equally contradictory desires – like Robby the Robot in Forbidden Planet. There’s a great scene when his creator demonstrates the safety features built into Robby. See Robby the Robot - laws of robotics scene in Forbidden Planet (1956 film)- if it doesn’t go directly to the spot it begins at the 1:9-minute mark.
My love / hate relationship with wierwille and Craig is like 20% love and 80% hate. They’re human beings – imperfect, yes – but I admire the good qualities I recognize in them and can relate to them as fellow humans – I don’t paint them up as absolute monsters. The 80% I hate is their unrepentant sinful behavior that earned them the titles of whatever their life-dominating sins were/are – sexual predator, liar, thief, etc.
In good healthy relationships I think the ratio is 90% love of all that is decent, honorable, beneficial to self and others and 10% hate of the sinful nonsense that comes with every human.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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chockfull
Well I don’t know about you but the silent reader is getting tired of all the whiny drama.
Besides everything I need to know about “needs and wants parallel” I can learn from Greta van Fleet lol.
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Mike
I see most of them coming here to read in the future, maybe after we area dead.
I pray you will someday be able to see your way through this thicket and remember the good parts in PFAL where God got through to you, learn to set aside the bad parts, and see more of the good then ever before.
I am praying that you may someday in that reading audience for a while and that it helps you to come back to PFAL and celebrate it unencumbered by all the crap of the past.
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chockfull
Some people view Charles Manson the same way. If you could only set aside the bad parts and see the good.
The Wilson sisters from Heart seem to have this kind of undying connection to Charlie.
Most however let that fantasy slide after watching or reading helter skelter.
Some are just blind to any criticism or objective evaluation…
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OldSkool
Right on. Im also thinking, from my own time as a good little wayfer, that mike imaginies he is battling devil spirits with the information we post. I mean, disagreements with wierwille always pointed to posession. So we are likely all hate filled, devil posessed cop outs and mike is here exercising his prowess in the spiritual competition. I saw, and participatied, in that delusional behavior my entire time in TWI. Example: Walmart witnessing, (silly made up example that actually happened ad infinitum) as I have a copy of golf digest (I hate golf) at the magazine aisle as I try and creep my way into a conversation I can turn to the class...finally I make eye contact and ask the person reading sport illustrated if they are an athelete...I then pounce and start preaching the spiritual competition....as they walk away hurriedly from the wacko reading golf digest who hates golf....I suddenly exercise discerning of spirits and realize that the guy who was reading sports illustrated and ran from me trying to preach the spiritual competition...is....posessed! See -- spiritual matrurity.
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OldSkool
Martindale danced around with fake devil spirits on stage while wearing spandex. So what wierwille was a dancing monkey in the video who was too stupid to use the correct word to describe a scale being balanced and used the word parallel instead. Should come as no surprise as there are consequences to mail in doctorates.
BTW - needs and wants dont need to be balanced either, thats utter bullshonta and you are using it to cover your @$$. But for the sake of argument: If needs and wants need to be balanced then thats an equal sized load of bullshonta that balances out with the bullshonta parallel concept. The burden of proof is on you. Show me one verse that says needs and wants need to be balanced before God can provide. So I have to have equal parts of need and equal parts want before I can receive anything from God....where you guys get this crap from? a spiritual coolbook? I can imagine the counsel now: Oldskool, to receive anything from God you have to have 1/3 cup of need exactly proportioned to 1/3 cup of want and those portions must be exactly parallel. Now, if you need something you don't want then God can't provide it, or if you want something you don't need then God can't provide it..
.........my Lord you can't make this stuff up...next thing you know mike will come along and tell us he re-watched the video (of course by candlelight in a dark room with pictures of VPW and his little bronze statue nearby) and he has proof that needs and wants must be parallell because wierwille was wearing black socks in the video so therefore the definitions of parallel and balanced are now kind of a hybrid where to balance anything the opposing items need to be parallel and equally portioned.
The mathematical geomoetry is mind blowing...lo bullshonta mogadishu malakas many hypotenuse.
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waysider
They were argyle. Weren't you paying attention?
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OldSkool
Egads...thats why it doesnt fit!!
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OldSkool
Oh boy, I missed this little jewel....I better post it up real quick before I forget what I was gonna post.... So to receive anything from God I need to have my needs and lusts paralell, or balanced, or balanced and paralell...I mean nevermind scripture tells us lusts are evil. So if I covet my neighbors wife but that covetousness is balanced out with my genuine need for sexual relations then God will provide my neighbors wife because my lust and needs are balanced. Now I understand wierwille, he was right all along for being a sexual predator and serial adulterer. Thanks!
You make this crap up as you go? Or you really pulling it all from the collateral damage books and pflappy?
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waysider
One would think a golf aficionado, such as yourself, would be keen to recognize argyle.
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OldSkool
I wonder if this argument would hold up in court....I mean words have meaning and language is set up on various rules and such, but hey, lets redefine words and break the rules of language to hold up our bronzed idols shall we! Cmon sing along..roll awa roll away every burden on your hear roll away...song along now!
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
The spiritually mature know how (H-O-W) to get their needs and lusts balanced.
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chockfull
Ian Poulter approves of this message!
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waysider
Payne Stewart comes to mind.
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Mike
You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only.
You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate?
Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother?
You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater.
Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done.
You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class.
Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives.
A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing.
I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all.
Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there.
But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century.
*/*/*/*/*
You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others.
Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately?
Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction?
*/*/*/*/*/*
Have you given up on the real deal being possible?
You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus.
There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.
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waysider
Same old load of horse spit I had to listen to, all the way back in 1975, when I voiced concern over the direction of the FellowLaborer program. Substitute the name of any infamous villain from the past (Dahmer, Gacy, Manson, Stalin...) and try to justify their actions using the same line of reasoning. Wierwille wasn't "one of the good guys". It's really just that simple.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research.
isolation from other Christians, rote mechanics in place of worship manifestations, conspiracy theory, lack of sexual boundaries (Schoenheit adultery paper), and wrong dividing of scripture to introduce spiritual abuse via the all powerful leadership.
The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side.
What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error.
Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.
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waysider
Agreed.
I would tweak that last statement, though, to note that his personal behavior functioned as instruction by example and, thus, encouraged others to indulge in harmful behavior as well..
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OldSkool
That's is precisely what I experienced and observed my entire time in twi. Both way corps, especially way corps, but Joe disciple as well.
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OldSkool
Sorry it doesnt work that way mikey. If you repent of sin you not only ask forgiveness but one is to bring forth fruits meet for repentance and the biggest point being cease from said sin. How did that play out with wierwille? The only things that ceased his trips to the motorcoach to boink his victims (that his wife knew was happening - they all knew) was either hi health, or his death. This whole idea of jumping in and out of the spotlight of fellowship is utterly preposterous and invented by a guy (wierwille) who was so ensconsed in his sins that they were a way of life complete with bible verses wrapped around his actions to provide him his rationailazation to continue to the point that his conscience became seared with a hot iron. My bet is he felt NO remorse for being a sexual predator, drunk, false prophet, etc. And he taught others to do the same. thus propagating the horror show another generation before martindale got busted and became Fox (Rosalie Fox Rivenbark) and Donna's fall guy.
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OldSkool
We refute the class because the class is riddled with contradictions and error and you resort to typical way international bullying tactiics.
Allow me to elucidate:
The poor ole me crap is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The blaming the victims card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The resort to insults when challenged card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The superiority complex card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
The attack other's faith as if it's not genuine card is tired and old, a card played by VPW till his dying day.
All you wierwille-ites can do when legitametely challenged is turn hostile and then blame the one who raised the issue for wierwille's shortcomings. So you do what all good wafers do, you go on the attack then play the victim card when people stand up to it and then charge everybody with being stupid and hateful. An accusation that leaves three fingers pointing at yourself.
I really wasnt even in this conversation and vouched for you being a real human, which people around here doubt because we have had "aggregate accounts" before where the account was used by a group of people, so would be no surprise that it happens again, but that's not you. You are real and sincere in posting here, I get that and realize I was wrong in my suspicions. And what do you do? You turn insulting and mean with me. So, you wanna go, let's go. We both know you lack the reasoning and debate skills to carry on an intelligent, calm, reasonable discussion on the matters. Its doubtful you will concede wierwille is wrong on anything and may well goto your grave convinced of his con game. You can't say you were never told otherwise.
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WordWolf
Mike: "You are too much the stickler on exact vocabulary."
Whatever happened to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision", and "God has a purpose for everything He says, how He says it, to whom He says it..." vpw pushed being a stickler on exact vocabulary.
Of course, since he was wrong, we don't have to obsess, but since you insist he was right, you're supposed to agree with him and push FOR being a stickler.
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WordWolf
In his final hours, vpw was seen searching his memory, determined to find some imperfection in his life in which God Almighty disapproved. He was unable to find it.
vpw went to his grave feeling NO remorse for being a sexual predator, let alone drunk, false prophet, etc.
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T-Bone
Mike, my dear Brother we are so close it’s not even funny.
About the only thing I really disagree with you on is your assumption I’m doing black & white thinking or absolute thinking. I used to think that way – but since I left TWI I’ve been working on broadening the spectrum – which gives me a wider range of options to think about and choose from – like this monochromatic value scale:
~ ~ ~ ~
Polarized, black-and-white thinking is a big problem. It distorts our understanding of realities involving shades of gray, which most human realities are. Binary thinking produces misleading maps of a complicated, nuanced world.
When we face difficult situations, all-or-none thinking blinds us to the possibility of a middle ground, leaving us with only simple, extreme options that rarely work. This type of cognition results in maladaptive emotions and behaviors, an array of mental health diagnoses too numerous to mention, and in its milder and more common forms, all sorts of problems in living and relationships.
Everyone engages in black and white thinking sometimes, because it is quicker and easier than careful consideration of a spectrum of possibilities. Problems arise when we rely on it too much, especially in dealing with emotionally important situations, issues and relationships.
Persistent problems in a particular life area suggest that some kind of dichotomous thinking is going on below the surface, driving the ineffective functioning. This is especially true when extreme emotions and/or behaviors occur, because these are the hallmarks of polarized cognition.
From: How to Assess Black-&-White Thinking in Yourself and Others | Psychology Today
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
I am no different than you Mike. I don’t have this Hollywood idea of the Christian lifestyle. I have a realistic idea of the Christian lifestyle. My day-to-day ‘interior’ living is an irregular pattern of switching back and forth between black and white thinking and a monochromatic value scale – but now after being out of TWI for some 37 years, it’s using the monochromatic value scale much more than using black and white thinking.
As an example of before and after in self-examination:
Recapping the extraordinary details of T-Bone’s Exciting Escape from Crazy Town > TBEEFCT episode whatever first aired 5/04/2023 1:04 AM , remember new episodes drop each time big-wierwille-fans drop the ball, streaming exclusively on Grease Spot TV cue the theme music and text “the more you know”:
1986: I left in 1986 from having a strong sense of disillusionment because of the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and WOW program to fulfill declared goals. There was also the constant accumulation of red flags when I observed inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented. Without realizing it at the time, Mike – I was doing what I always did in TWI – using black and white thinking to judge myself and others. 12 years of ignoring red flags with the last two years of being in-residence way corps to see wierwille and Craig’s darker side, unguarded moments and connecting the dots of sexually molested women who kept a stiff upper lip and get on with the program. Yeah, I was furious. Outraged! How dare these hypocrites demand I walk the talk but not themselves.
1986 – 2023: Mike, I’m a lot harsher and more judgmental on myself than you will ever know. And I cut everyone a lot more slack than you may think.
What pi$$es me off about how you assume I have an unrealistic ideal of the Christian lifestyle is that I don’t fault wierwille or Craig for being human – but for being pretentious, pontificating behind a double standard. I think very highly of anyone who bravely and honestly admits they have a problem and tries to do something about it. Like an alcoholic joining AA.
I’ve been married some 47 years and have never cheated on my wife. But Jesus doesn’t cut me any slack when He said But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart…. Matthew 5:28 NIV
I’m an old fart now and don’t have the drive I used to – and I’m too embarrassed…ashamed…to reveal the times I’ve committed adultery in my heart…
and let me just say my wife satisfies me completely in the 3 types of love (agape, phileo, eros) - so what can I say in my defense? I used to be a greedy horny little ba$tard.
- but long ago I decided it’s better to please God and honor my Lord Jesus Christ…for me it’s been more of a spiritual battle within than without - now I’m pretty good about heading the temptation off at pass - - so the battle gets easier…so much for letting you in on my sinful nature.. .got better at nipping those thoughts in the bud and I have had and continue to have long talks with close friends – believers usually - on this issue I have. I want to do better.
Mike, these are the comparisons I get into evaluating what I do versus what hypocrites like wierwille, and Craig did. At least I try to do better in watching what I think about and how I interact with women other than my wife - - and - - so far in 47 years of marriage - - I have not consummated my lustful thoughts of another woman which would do even more harm to others – the repercussions of to my wife and kids, to the woman’s life – and if she’s married and has kids, the consequences hit them too.
One last thought. I talked about a love / hate relationship I have with wierwille and Craig on another thread. Folks who use black and white thinking don’t understand how that’s possible. Maybe it’s because they see the love / hate relationship in equal parts – 50% love and 50% hate. I don’t think that’s the way our minds usually work - or we’d be immobilized by strong and equally contradictory desires – like Robby the Robot in Forbidden Planet. There’s a great scene when his creator demonstrates the safety features built into Robby. See Robby the Robot - laws of robotics scene in Forbidden Planet (1956 film) - if it doesn’t go directly to the spot it begins at the 1:9-minute mark.
My love / hate relationship with wierwille and Craig is like 20% love and 80% hate. They’re human beings – imperfect, yes – but I admire the good qualities I recognize in them and can relate to them as fellow humans – I don’t paint them up as absolute monsters. The 80% I hate is their unrepentant sinful behavior that earned them the titles of whatever their life-dominating sins were/are – sexual predator, liar, thief, etc.
In good healthy relationships I think the ratio is 90% love of all that is decent, honorable, beneficial to self and others and 10% hate of the sinful nonsense that comes with every human.
Edited by T-Boneoh behave
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