Your personal relationship with God right after becoming His child makes me curious as to who ministered the Word to you at the time.This bonding between you and God seems to have been pure, uncontaminated by man-made traditions or rules.Your acceptance of Christ came without “need-to-do next steps” and the subsequent guilt and conditional feelings of love to burden you. What a breath of fresh air to see you experience this.
Charity.... here is a little background. I posted this several days ago on another thread.
In the summer of 1973.... my high school classmate encouraged me to visit a local missionary pastor who often flew to Central America for his outreach missions. My classmate was an avid church-goer and I was not. We had several, deep conversations about Jesus as Lord and he felt compelled to help me before he left for the Navy. Little did I realize what was in store for me. Upon arrival at his home, there were only four of us in attendance and this missionary pastor wasted no time before he delved right into the Scriptures. Romans 10:9,10 [the new birth] was his starting point.
From there, he handled aspects of sins and shortcomings and one's old man nature. Another 15 minutes of verses.... all of which would cast the central theme of all Scripture upon Jesus Christ, lord, savior and mediator. Then he asked me if I would confess Jesus as Lord Jesus to receive the new birth. Timidly, I spoke out loud and confessed him as lord. At this point, he stood, approached me and laid hands on me. After ministering the new birth and the other two guys praying.... I "felt" this rush of energy/power from the crown of my head to the tips of my toes. To me, I took this experience as the in-filling of holy spirit.
Days later, my friend left for the Navy and soon I headed off to college. So, for me.... I was born again BEFORE ever hearing about twi or pfal. I never credited twi with leading me to the new birth; I credited my classmate and this missionary pastor. Had I gotten more scriptural understanding before leaving my home town.... perhaps, I never would have been susceptible to twi's hucksters. Who knows? I do know that God has had His hand on my life before AND after twi. No doubt or guilt of this has crossed my mind. Perhaps, that's why when the scales fell from my eyes.... there was no doubt I was released from twi's bondage.
I think the discussion itself of the topic is the answer. If your ego is puffed up to the point you are doing an analysis of Gods job in how many and where the “miracles” are performed then you yourself are the reason.
What do you consider a miracle? There’s another thing. There are the major accounts in the Bible. And there is life.
If you get into static analysis on “is this sunrise a miracle?” “is the birth of my second child a miracle?” “is this answer to prayer a miracle?” then you will end up at the same Mike based level of frustration for your entire life.
”mental assent” is an overblown concept. It is basically saying I agree in concept but not to the point where I will take any action or have any skin in the game.
That certainly is not the case for believers experiencing delayed answers to prayers or not getting an answer or grinding to make something happen by way of action.
”mental assent” when arseholes use it describing something other than their own selves is a form of gaslighting. It is victim blaming. It is being a zero in emotional intelligence.
So in your mind, Mike, it all narrows to the cliche excuse of all those B movie mediums and grifters: You didn't belive.
So, tell me, if this is so vital, how does one know if he's mental assenting or believing?
No, it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing.
Have you ever gone through the 4 Gospels and taken note of all that Jesus teaches on believing? It might change your attitudes. Maybe I should post them here? Are you even AWARE of Jesus talking about believing?
What VPW taught us was that mental assent lacks action. When there is risk, and something to lose by acting, but the action is taken anyway, then that is an indicator that believing is happening.
But don't forget, genuine believing with action, but lacking a written promise that is the object of the believing, is bogus and believing amiss. It's genuine believing-action, but it is aimed wrong.
This part about linking believing with a promise of God often slips out of our speech, and later out of our awareness. It is equally critical that all operation of the power manifestations must be linked to a direct revelation.
I see both of these links often missing in people's speech, and I conclude that means it is lacking in people's minds just how important that what God says about these things, either in writing or directly, must never be divorced from the believing-action part. I think these are the reasons so may are disappointed with what they assimilated from PFAL and associated teachings. The law of believing is fine; we operate it very poorly.
So, in for believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.
*/*/*/*/
4 hours ago, waysider said:
I'm gonna cut right to the chase here, Mike. If, after all these years, you still cling to the law of believing as being real, I must conclude it's not only the "old grads" (your label) who have had trouble paying attention.
I cling to what God says about the law of believing, even if He doesn't use that modern terminology. The terminology is not as important as the ideas.
I trust that Jesus got the ideas straight when he taught on believing. I trust that all the Biblical writers got it right. I trust what VPW taught us about believing and the necessary links to associated promises of God, as I mentioned above to So_crates.
I agree in the sense that if Mike believes that "the law of believing" works like VPW taught it, then it contradicts the very thesis of this thread; i.e., there are other forces at work even when we really do believe to receive. If I got that wrong Mike pls. clear it up. Thx.
In science, when a "force law" like gravity or electricity is investigated, it is necessary to do what is called "controlled experiments."
The control refers to eliminating all other forces acting on the experiment. That is hard to do at times, because there are so many different kinds of forces happening in real life. In the labortory the idea is to control other forces towards simplicity by eliminating them.
This is the reason I looked at the phenomenon of "free will" in the simplest possible kind of a mind, that is, one that does not have spirit.
I think we were taught the "lab" version or the "controlled" version of the law of believing for simplicity. We were not taught about all the other forces much.
Believing is something that doesn't usually happen once. It is usually cultivated with many implementations or attempts. Lots of persistence is involved in believing. I think when that is the case, the "other" forces out there have less chance to persistently mess it up.
I think there are random events; $hit happens.
But they don't happen persistently, not truly random ones. Then there are the occasions where the adversary can find a way to mess it up EVEN IF we are believing. With true believing, a failure like this is ignored, and the believing persists, to win another day. (Think of Jesus having to heal that blind guy twice.)
But, oldiesman, the scarcity of miracles IMO is mostly due to us not having real believing most of the time, or not having a written promise, or not having a direct revelation. Then there is also the believing that is needed AFTER a miracle to deal with the adversary's empowerment due to the double doors.
I never heard anyone teach like this, though, that there are other forces at work along with the force of us believing a promise from God. I think it should have been in the Advanced Class.
As I came to a slow understanding of this, I started to hear things different from grads who were perplexed at not getting results from believing. When they would say "But I was believing!" I slowly learned to think that if they were really believing, then what made them stop?
The lack of results from believing should never be put on God, or paid much attention. If we keep on believing what He says, it will eventually come to pass. For some things that may be a long time, even to the Return of Christ. I have a couple of things like that in my life, but I don't let my lack of persistence, or my lack of nailing accurately a promise from God, stop me from applying the law of believing to other matters.
I think most of us are still beginners at the believing stuff.
But, oldiesman, the scarcity of miracles IMO is mostly due to us not having real believing most of the time, or not having a written promise, or not having a direct revelation.
Let's be clear. Im havent experienced a scarcity of miracles. That sounds like your experiences.
What VPW taught us was that mental assent lacks action. When there is risk, and something to lose by acting, but the action is taken anyway, then that is an indicator that believing is happening.
But don't forget, genuine believing with action, but lacking a written promise that is the object of the believing, is bogus and believing amiss. It's genuine believing-action, but it is aimed wrong.
This part about linking believing with a promise of God often slips out of our speech, and later out of our awareness. It is equally critical that all operation of the power manifestations must be linked to a direct revelation
Oh, really?!
Just before I left the ministry in 1986, I was about to give ABS. At the time I was recently between job and I had given ABS faithfully for a year.
I quickly calculated my finance and found I would come up short of food on Saturday (I believe it was Wednesday or Thursday). I remembered Saint Vic said when you ABS God protects your money and I was expecting a check Saturday from a temporary job I had done.
So I wrote the check and placed it in the horn of plenty.
Saturday rolled around and no check.
Nothing to eat Sunday.
Monday I went to the business and found out the sent the check to an address I lived at 10 years prior. (I later found out the new residents took the check and cashed it.) I had to argue with the business manager to even get half the money owed me.
Now, you have believing and action and I had skin on the game, so what happened.
(I have many more examples, as I'm sure other posters here do.)
I cling to what God says about the law of believing, even if He doesn't use that modern terminology. The terminology is not as important as the ideas.
I trust that Jesus got the ideas straight when he taught on believing. I trust that all the Biblical writers got it right. I trust what VPW taught us about believing and the necessary links to associated promises of God, as I mentioned above to So_crates.
You're not clinging to the law of believing as Jesus stated it? You're clinging to how Saint Vic interpreted it. There's a distinction.
What VPW taught us was that mental assent lacks action. When there is risk, and something to lose by acting, but the action is taken anyway, then that is an indicator that believing is happening.
But don't forget, genuine believing with action, but lacking a written promise that is the object of the believing, is bogus and believing amiss. It's genuine believing-action, but it is aimed wrong.
This part about linking believing with a promise of God often slips out of our speech, and later out of our awareness. It is equally critical that all operation of the power manifestations must be linked to a direct revelation.
Another example. Same period of time.
As you can see by my previous example, things weren't exactly champagne and caviar for me.
So I went to the branch leader and asked him what I was doing wrong.
"You need a job making $20 an hour," he told me.
"Where do you find those?" I asked.
"I'm going to send you to your twig leader for an answer."
So I approached my twig leader. His answer:"I don't know."
Nevermind if you obey the MOG God will bless you all the same. Again, believing+action=landing flat on my face.
Just before I left the ministry in 1986, I was about to give ABS. At the time I was recently between job and I had given ABS faithfully for a year.
I quickly calculated my finance and found I would come up short of food on Saturday (I believe it was Wednesday or Thursday). I remembered Saint Vic said when you ABS God protects your money and I was expecting a check Saturday from a temporary job I had done.
So I wrote the check and placed it in the horn of plenty.
Saturday rolled around and no check.
Nothing to eat Sunday.
Monday I went to the business and found out the sent the check to an address I lived at 10 years prior. (I later found out the new residents took the check and cashed it.) I had to argue with the business manager to even get half the money owed me.
Now, you have believing and action and I had skin on the game, so what happened.
(I have many more examples, as I'm sure other posters here do.)
Did you check to see if God promised a Saturday check from a temp job? Obviously, he didn't, because you did everything else right. The numbers, the paint, the gloves...
Got to get your needs aligned with your wants and find out if God promised that alignment before you believe for it. And the ABS hedge of protection only works if you are manifesting believing kinds of faith while wearing clown shoes. See? It's axiomatic. Isn't that just tremendous!
Now, you have believing and action and I had skin on the game, so what happened.
Sounds like you ran into the same issues I had with the law of believing. Tithing/ABS doesnt work the manner in which the way international teaches no more than the law of believing. When the law of believing failed in my life it was obvious who's fault it was according to TWI: Mine. They most always blame the person doing what they teach for not doing it good enough...or whatever the excuse Du' Juor is.
I mean you can see Mike running the same circles here on GSC. Its always that we dont get it, or we missed it, or whatever...never question the doctrine....wierwille said it works so the words of a liar rule the day for these guys.
You wrote: Ialways see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
Ialways see it as...that God would cause the doors to close. - using the word "always" means you are saying you are firmly persuaded ...that God would cause the doors to close. This would definitely affect your ability to trust God - don't you think?
It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us - I see it as limiting God's power over in our lives.
Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances. - So what you're saying is that you know what God is or is not inclined to do. Just a reminder that God's ways and purposes are His to know, not ours to guess.
__________________________
You wrote: As I studied the ancients as well as modern enlightenment programs I developed a strong sense of SCARCITY of people who were willing to discipline their minds well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment. I had a super hard time following authors who would teach on this. Reading them was an exciting adventure, but disciplining my thinking in between reading sessions was the hard part.
but disciplining my thinking - This sounds like a lot of work to make your mind behave (think) a certain way by exercising self-control which by the way is one of the fruits of the spirit. Jesus said, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
well enough to achieve the delicate state of enlightenment - again it seems like a lot of hard work to be good enough to arrive at such a delicate state of anything. It's self-discipline so you can achieve.
You wrote: When I got into the Word, it was immediately apparent to me that “ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness I had been pursuing. Fellowship got super easy to achieve when I discovered the First Epistle of John, but believing without a trace of doubt remained hard.
“ believing” and “fellowship” was equivalent to this delicate cosmic consciousness - are you saying that "believing," which involves you disciplining your thinking well enough (good enough), is now what you are pursuing? Once again, A LOT OF WORK ON YOUR PART.
believing without a trace of doubt remained hard. - compare this to Matthew 11:29-30, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light”
__________________________
You wrote: When VPW taught about “mental assent” I completely knew what he meant. It was simple agreement with some idea, and a pleasant feeling that it was true, but lacking the crystallization required to take bold action.
(mental assent) lacking the crystallization required to take bold action. - by crystallization you must mean the process of becoming definite and clear which is something you are required to do so you can take bold action.
You wrote: I think most of the confusion about the law of believing comes from people thinking that their mental assent is real true believing, the kind of true believing that Jesus talked about, and having no doubts. I think real believing is rare and mental assent is very common.I know for sure that’s the way it works with me.
confusion - the law of believing - real true believing - true believing - having no doubts. - I think the confusion about the law of believing would end if you get rid of the word "law" and replace believing with trusting. For me, "believing" had become associated with a lot of hard work like disciplining your mind well enough to receive. When you don't receive, it means your believing was not good enough.
Trusting, however, is something I have come to learn means putting my trust in a trustworthy God when I ask (not demand) for something - pure and simple.
Having no doubts simply means having no doubt in God's faithfulness which is realized by having a relationship with Him through His son Jesus Christ - not by having a one-way shaky business deal.
that’s the way it works with me. - does that mean real believing for you is rare and mental assent is very common. That's what the law of believing will do to you - make trusting in God (and not yourself) rare.
Mike, you wrote a long post for others to think about so I hope you're willing to actually read the replies. The above bold font used on what you wrote is my doing.
I mean you can see Mike running the same circles here on GSC. Its always that we dont get it, or we missed it, or whatever...never question the doctrine....wierwille said it works so the words of a liar rule the day for these guys.
I shoulda read Mike's post close...he's already blamed "us" for the law of believing failing.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
But, oldiesman, the scarcity of miracles IMO is mostly due to us
Sounds like you ran into the same issues I had with the law of believing. Tithing/ABS doesnt work the manner in which the way international teaches no more than the law of believing. When the law of believing failed in my life it was obvious who's fault it was according to TWI: Mine. They most always blame the person doing what they teach for not doing it good enough...or whatever the excuse Du' Juor is.
I mean you can see Mike running the same circles here on GSC. Its always that we dont get it, or we missed it, or whatever...never question the doctrine....wierwille said it works so the words of a liar rule the day for these guys.
Anybody who buys into the law of believing should ask themselves is this something the devil would want everyone to know?
Then why is it part of pop culture, rebranded as the secret or the law of attraction?
But, oldiesman, the scarcity of miracles IMO is mostly due to us not having real believing most of the time, or not having a written promise, or not having a direct revelation.
What?
I thought it was due to God's self-imposed budgetary constraints. He's not a generous god, he's a stingy god with a budget.
You can line up perfectly your believing-manifestation-kinds-of-faith, walking action, promised promises, revealed revelations, wagging tongues, and it will be all for naught, if it ain't in God's budget.
I thought it was due to God's self-imposed budgetary constraints. He's not a generous god, he's a stingy god with a budget.
You can line up perfectly your believing-manifestation-kinds-of-faith, walking action, promised promises, revealed revelations, wagging tongues, and it will be all for naught, if it ain't in God's budget.
Btw, doesn't Mike's take on "scarcity of miracles" sound a lot (or at least somewhat) like when (gullible?) people talk about UFOs, or perhaps one of hundreds (or more) conspiracy theories?
As in, WhereTF is he coming up with these things? I refer readers to my comment about going off half cocked.
Btw, doesn't Mike's take on "scarcity of miracles" sound a lot (or at least somewhat) like when (gullible?) people talk about UFOs, or perhaps one of hundreds (or more) conspiracy theories?
As in, WhereTF is he coming up with these things? I refer readers to my comment about going off half cocked.
This law is mathematically accurate and scientifically precise. Like a tailored glove. Like an interpretation of equal syllables. Like a cookie in a jar. Like a paper folder. Like a rape done in the love of god.
The following is the legal, mathematical proof equation of the scientifically metaphysical law.
As you can see by my previous example, things weren't exactly champagne and caviar for me.
So I went to the branch leader and asked him what I was doing wrong.
"You need a job making $20 an hour," he told me.
"Where do you find those?" I asked.
"I'm going to send you to your twig leader for an answer."
So I approached my twig leader. His answer:"I don't know."
Nevermind if you obey the MOG God will bless you all the same. Again, believing+action=landing flat on my face.
YIKES! Can you PLEASE give me a date for that?
Also, were the twig and branch leaders Corps?
This is crucial for me, others, and an accurate history being written someday.
I had turned off my computer to go out and see the nice weather, but I came back to talk about that check that went to the wrong address on that Saturday? Was that the example you were referring to in this latest horror story? Was that you with the wrong address story?
I'm not being facetious; this kind of story enrages me about leadership. I don't think any stupid things like this happened in the early 70s on Long Island. I did see these bonehead moves in the Corps (just some) and they increased into the 80s, and went over the top in the 90s (so I am told).
I haven't had time to check if the check story was you. Please pardon my memory. I try to keep track of lots of things. I would have checked but this latest story sort of stopped me in my tracks.
I feel for you, because I've been there and done that myself; sometimes spectacularly.
When I was going out WoW in 1982 my car had an aluminum head that had cracked, but I got if fixed “semi-miraculously” and was off in running a cross country trip from San Diego to Ohio.
But my new head cracked in the Colorado Rockies!
I could tell, because I had to limp on a blown head for weeks prior to its fixing in San Diego, and I was now limping again.
But I was answering a call from God!
I had resisted acting on the WoW challenge for 11 years, but now finally I am giving God a year of my time and heart. I had put my business in the hands of 5 grads, with verbal promises they would give it all back to me on my return.
No cracked aluminum head was not going to stop this Ambassador for Christ! No sirree!
I started picturing in my mind the aluminum poles that hold up the huge Rock of Ages tents, and how strong that metallic bond was. I was a Physics major, and it was easy to imagine my cracked head “healing” up by God’s power. It would be so easy to work those atoms around, bring in a few needed neutrons or protons, or scoop up aluminum from the road dust…. I was into “the believing images of victory” that we all were galloping with in those days.
As I limped up each hill I’d make these mental images stronger to defy the wobbles in the my car engine’s strength. As I coasted down the next hill I’d be thanking God for that head to he healed on climbing the next hill…. and the next… and the next…
Arrrrggghhhh!! It was mentally exhausting.
It was a miracle I made it to Ohio in time, though !!!
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It took another 6 years before I could figure out what went wrong.
Can you see it?
*/*/*
Anyway, I want to go back out and enjoy the weather for a little bit before it gets cold. AND, I want to get back to that wrong address check thing.
Like I said earlier, I’ve spent a lot of time reading posts here lately, and accumulating a lot of notes on posts from many days ago (and other threads too) that I want to respond to, including all the fresh ones from the past few hours.
Btw, doesn't Mike's take on "scarcity of miracles" sound a lot (or at least somewhat) like when (gullible?) people talk about UFOs, or perhaps one of hundreds (or more) conspiracy theories?
As in, WhereTF is he coming up with these things? I refer readers to my comment about going off half cocked.
This is crucial for me, others, and an accurate history being written someday.
I had turned off my computer to go out and see the nice weather, but I came back to talk about that check that went to the wrong address on that Saturday? Was that the example you were referring to in this latest horror story? Was that you with the wrong address story?
I'm not being facetious; this kind of story enrages me about leadership. I don't think any stupid things like this happened in the early 70s on Long Island. I did see these bonehead moves in the Corps (just some) and they increased into the 80s, and went over the top in the 90s (so I am told).
I haven't had time to check if the check story was you. Please pardon my memory. I try to keep track of lots of things. I would have checked but this latest story sort of stopped me in my tracks.
I feel for you, because I've been there and done that myself; sometimes spectacularly.
When I was going out WoW in 1982 my car had an aluminum head that had cracked, but I got if fixed “semi-miraculously” and was off in running a cross country trip from San Diego to Ohio.
But my new head cracked in the Colorado Rockies!
I could tell, because I had to limp on a blown head for weeks prior to its fixing in San Diego, and I was now limping again.
But I was answering a call from God!
I had resisted acting on the WoW challenge for 11 years, but now finally I am giving God a year of my time and heart. I had put my business in the hands of 5 grads, with verbal promises they would give it all back to me on my return.
No cracked aluminum head was not going to stop this Ambassador for Christ! No sirree!
I started picturing in my mind the aluminum poles that hold up the huge Rock of Ages tents, and how strong that metallic bond was. I was a Physics major, and it was easy to imagine my cracked head “healing” up by God’s power. It would be so easy to work those atoms around, bring in a few needed neutrons or protons, or scoop up aluminum from the road dust…. I was into “the believing images of victory” that we all were galloping with in those days.
As I limped up each hill I’d make these mental images stronger to defy the wobbles in the my car engine’s strength. As I coasted down the next hill I’d be thanking God for that head to he healed on climbing the next hill…. and the next… and the next…
Arrrrggghhhh!! It was mentally exhausting.
It was a miracle I made it to Ohio in time, though !!!
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It took another 6 years before I could figure out what went wrong.
Can you see it?
*/*/*
Anyway, I want to go back out and enjoy the weather for a little bit before it gets cold. AND, I want to get back to that wrong address check thing.
Like I said earlier, I’ve spent a lot of time reading posts here lately, and accumulating a lot of notes on posts from many days ago (and other threads too) that I want to respond to, including all the fresh ones from the past few hours.
The year was 1986.
Neither the branch leader, nor the twig leader were corps.
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chockfull
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Charity.... here is a little background. I posted this several days ago on another thread.
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chockfull
I think the discussion itself of the topic is the answer. If your ego is puffed up to the point you are doing an analysis of Gods job in how many and where the “miracles” are performed then you yourself are the reason.
What do you consider a miracle? There’s another thing. There are the major accounts in the Bible. And there is life.
If you get into static analysis on “is this sunrise a miracle?” “is the birth of my second child a miracle?” “is this answer to prayer a miracle?” then you will end up at the same Mike based level of frustration for your entire life.
”mental assent” is an overblown concept. It is basically saying I agree in concept but not to the point where I will take any action or have any skin in the game.
That certainly is not the case for believers experiencing delayed answers to prayers or not getting an answer or grinding to make something happen by way of action.
”mental assent” when arseholes use it describing something other than their own selves is a form of gaslighting. It is victim blaming. It is being a zero in emotional intelligence.
It is anti Christ activity
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Mike
No, it all narrows down to how Jesus taught on believing and the lack of believing.
Have you ever gone through the 4 Gospels and taken note of all that Jesus teaches on believing? It might change your attitudes. Maybe I should post them here? Are you even AWARE of Jesus talking about believing?
What VPW taught us was that mental assent lacks action. When there is risk, and something to lose by acting, but the action is taken anyway, then that is an indicator that believing is happening.
But don't forget, genuine believing with action, but lacking a written promise that is the object of the believing, is bogus and believing amiss. It's genuine believing-action, but it is aimed wrong.
This part about linking believing with a promise of God often slips out of our speech, and later out of our awareness. It is equally critical that all operation of the power manifestations must be linked to a direct revelation.
I see both of these links often missing in people's speech, and I conclude that means it is lacking in people's minds just how important that what God says about these things, either in writing or directly, must never be divorced from the believing-action part. I think these are the reasons so may are disappointed with what they assimilated from PFAL and associated teachings. The law of believing is fine; we operate it very poorly.
So, in for believing for miracles make sure you have a written or direct promise from God to link your believing to and then ACT on it.
*/*/*/*/
I cling to what God says about the law of believing, even if He doesn't use that modern terminology. The terminology is not as important as the ideas.
I trust that Jesus got the ideas straight when he taught on believing. I trust that all the Biblical writers got it right. I trust what VPW taught us about believing and the necessary links to associated promises of God, as I mentioned above to So_crates.
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Mike
In science, when a "force law" like gravity or electricity is investigated, it is necessary to do what is called "controlled experiments."
The control refers to eliminating all other forces acting on the experiment. That is hard to do at times, because there are so many different kinds of forces happening in real life. In the labortory the idea is to control other forces towards simplicity by eliminating them.
This is the reason I looked at the phenomenon of "free will" in the simplest possible kind of a mind, that is, one that does not have spirit.
I think we were taught the "lab" version or the "controlled" version of the law of believing for simplicity. We were not taught about all the other forces much.
Believing is something that doesn't usually happen once. It is usually cultivated with many implementations or attempts. Lots of persistence is involved in believing. I think when that is the case, the "other" forces out there have less chance to persistently mess it up.
I think there are random events; $hit happens.
But they don't happen persistently, not truly random ones. Then there are the occasions where the adversary can find a way to mess it up EVEN IF we are believing. With true believing, a failure like this is ignored, and the believing persists, to win another day. (Think of Jesus having to heal that blind guy twice.)
But, oldiesman, the scarcity of miracles IMO is mostly due to us not having real believing most of the time, or not having a written promise, or not having a direct revelation. Then there is also the believing that is needed AFTER a miracle to deal with the adversary's empowerment due to the double doors.
I never heard anyone teach like this, though, that there are other forces at work along with the force of us believing a promise from God. I think it should have been in the Advanced Class.
As I came to a slow understanding of this, I started to hear things different from grads who were perplexed at not getting results from believing. When they would say "But I was believing!" I slowly learned to think that if they were really believing, then what made them stop?
The lack of results from believing should never be put on God, or paid much attention. If we keep on believing what He says, it will eventually come to pass. For some things that may be a long time, even to the Return of Christ. I have a couple of things like that in my life, but I don't let my lack of persistence, or my lack of nailing accurately a promise from God, stop me from applying the law of believing to other matters.
I think most of us are still beginners at the believing stuff.
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OldSkool
Let's be clear. Im havent experienced a scarcity of miracles. That sounds like your experiences.
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So_crates
Oh, really?!
Just before I left the ministry in 1986, I was about to give ABS. At the time I was recently between job and I had given ABS faithfully for a year.
I quickly calculated my finance and found I would come up short of food on Saturday (I believe it was Wednesday or Thursday). I remembered Saint Vic said when you ABS God protects your money and I was expecting a check Saturday from a temporary job I had done.
So I wrote the check and placed it in the horn of plenty.
Saturday rolled around and no check.
Nothing to eat Sunday.
Monday I went to the business and found out the sent the check to an address I lived at 10 years prior. (I later found out the new residents took the check and cashed it.) I had to argue with the business manager to even get half the money owed me.
Now, you have believing and action and I had skin on the game, so what happened.
(I have many more examples, as I'm sure other posters here do.)
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Rocky
To me, it sounds like Mike has nothing, either experience or data or scriptures, on which to base any claim of "scarcity of miracles."
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So_crates
You're not clinging to the law of believing as Jesus stated it? You're clinging to how Saint Vic interpreted it. There's a distinction.
Jesus taught about faith.
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So_crates
Another example. Same period of time.
As you can see by my previous example, things weren't exactly champagne and caviar for me.
So I went to the branch leader and asked him what I was doing wrong.
"You need a job making $20 an hour," he told me.
"Where do you find those?" I asked.
"I'm going to send you to your twig leader for an answer."
So I approached my twig leader. His answer:"I don't know."
Nevermind if you obey the MOG God will bless you all the same. Again, believing+action=landing flat on my face.
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Nathan_Jr
Did you check to see if God promised a Saturday check from a temp job? Obviously, he didn't, because you did everything else right. The numbers, the paint, the gloves...
Got to get your needs aligned with your wants and find out if God promised that alignment before you believe for it. And the ABS hedge of protection only works if you are manifesting believing kinds of faith while wearing clown shoes. See? It's axiomatic. Isn't that just tremendous!
Got
to
MAKE
it
FIT
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OldSkool
Sad but true.
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OldSkool
Sounds like you ran into the same issues I had with the law of believing. Tithing/ABS doesnt work the manner in which the way international teaches no more than the law of believing. When the law of believing failed in my life it was obvious who's fault it was according to TWI: Mine. They most always blame the person doing what they teach for not doing it good enough...or whatever the excuse Du' Juor is.
I mean you can see Mike running the same circles here on GSC. Its always that we dont get it, or we missed it, or whatever...never question the doctrine....wierwille said it works so the words of a liar rule the day for these guys.
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Charity
Mike, you wrote a long post for others to think about so I hope you're willing to actually read the replies. The above bold font used on what you wrote is my doing.
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OldSkool
I shoulda read Mike's post close...he's already blamed "us" for the law of believing failing.
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Rocky
According to whom, or what?
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So_crates
Anybody who buys into the law of believing should ask themselves is this something the devil would want everyone to know?
Then why is it part of pop culture, rebranded as the secret or the law of attraction?
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Nathan_Jr
What?
I thought it was due to God's self-imposed budgetary constraints. He's not a generous god, he's a stingy god with a budget.
You can line up perfectly your believing-manifestation-kinds-of-faith, walking action, promised promises, revealed revelations, wagging tongues, and it will be all for naught, if it ain't in God's budget.
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Rocky
Btw, doesn't Mike's take on "scarcity of miracles" sound a lot (or at least somewhat) like when (gullible?) people talk about UFOs, or perhaps one of hundreds (or more) conspiracy theories?
As in, WhereTF is he coming up with these things? I refer readers to my comment about going off half cocked.
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So_crates
I'd say it was more half baked.
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Nathan_Jr
This law is mathematically accurate and scientifically precise. Like a tailored glove. Like an interpretation of equal syllables. Like a cookie in a jar. Like a paper folder. Like a rape done in the love of god.
The following is the legal, mathematical proof equation of the scientifically metaphysical law.
60% of the time it works every time.
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Mike
YIKES! Can you PLEASE give me a date for that?
Also, were the twig and branch leaders Corps?
This is crucial for me, others, and an accurate history being written someday.
I had turned off my computer to go out and see the nice weather, but I came back to talk about that check that went to the wrong address on that Saturday? Was that the example you were referring to in this latest horror story? Was that you with the wrong address story?
I'm not being facetious; this kind of story enrages me about leadership. I don't think any stupid things like this happened in the early 70s on Long Island. I did see these bonehead moves in the Corps (just some) and they increased into the 80s, and went over the top in the 90s (so I am told).
I haven't had time to check if the check story was you. Please pardon my memory. I try to keep track of lots of things. I would have checked but this latest story sort of stopped me in my tracks.
I feel for you, because I've been there and done that myself; sometimes spectacularly.
When I was going out WoW in 1982 my car had an aluminum head that had cracked, but I got if fixed “semi-miraculously” and was off in running a cross country trip from San Diego to Ohio.
But my new head cracked in the Colorado Rockies!
I could tell, because I had to limp on a blown head for weeks prior to its fixing in San Diego, and I was now limping again.
But I was answering a call from God!
I had resisted acting on the WoW challenge for 11 years, but now finally I am giving God a year of my time and heart. I had put my business in the hands of 5 grads, with verbal promises they would give it all back to me on my return.
No cracked aluminum head was not going to stop this Ambassador for Christ! No sirree!
I started picturing in my mind the aluminum poles that hold up the huge Rock of Ages tents, and how strong that metallic bond was. I was a Physics major, and it was easy to imagine my cracked head “healing” up by God’s power. It would be so easy to work those atoms around, bring in a few needed neutrons or protons, or scoop up aluminum from the road dust…. I was into “the believing images of victory” that we all were galloping with in those days.
As I limped up each hill I’d make these mental images stronger to defy the wobbles in the my car engine’s strength. As I coasted down the next hill I’d be thanking God for that head to he healed on climbing the next hill…. and the next… and the next…
Arrrrggghhhh!! It was mentally exhausting.
It was a miracle I made it to Ohio in time, though !!!
My diagnosis was right; cracked head. I had a sick feeling when I saw the aluminum poles and how strong they looked at the big tent.
It took another 6 years before I could figure out what went wrong.
Can you see it?
*/*/*
Anyway, I want to go back out and enjoy the weather for a little bit before it gets cold. AND, I want to get back to that wrong address check thing.
Like I said earlier, I’ve spent a lot of time reading posts here lately, and accumulating a lot of notes on posts from many days ago (and other threads too) that I want to respond to, including all the fresh ones from the past few hours.
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Nathan_Jr
Yes! You were right on with that post.
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So_crates
The year was 1986.
Neither the branch leader, nor the twig leader were corps.
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Mike
Thanks much!
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