It was usually just a new grad who was expressing a little over enthusiasm for the law of believing, like the way OldSkool said he felt invincible with the class teaching on believing
Wasnt me, but the law of believing certainly sets a person on a prideful, unrealistic pedestal because it leads a person to believe that they can visualize their way out of anything, which is impossible.
this kind of “self-destruction” factor for grads who didn’t master the material enough.
So, you are saying that if PFLAP isnt masered enough it causes self-destruction. How astute. Yet you are still trying to pump life into that BS. Do youever get tired of banging your head against the same obstacles?
No, all these same questions came up in my life, and I asked them. These questions also came up in my twigs, and as twig leader I felt I had to help find answers if I didn't have them immediately. I led a twig '74-76, and 79-81, and lots of questions came up.
People asked all these same kinds of questions before you folks came to do it.
I would NEVER be able to make up the answers I posted.
On some things I've been rusty, but not totally. It's been a great review for me. I wanted to do this years ago here, but it took a while for me to pull my old notes together.
Nope, not making it up.
There ARE some points I am less sure about.
I am aware of them and want to work on them someday.
Interesting coincidence. You just happen to post about not making stuff up after you posted something that was obviously made up.
People do not forget they are going to die one day, so, by extension they are aware others are going to die, too.
Also, why mention you twig coordinator experience? Your post would be fine without it. But then it wouldn't have the air of authority you thought your made up stuff needed.
But then it wouldn't have the air of authority you thought your made up stuff needed.
Oh ya, I used to boast that I WAS PRES CABINET...as if that really meant something...it doesnt, and it didnt, and it never did. It means I was one of a group of people given high-pressure administrative jobs to help the directors because they couldnt micromanage effectively enough with out such a support structure. We were nothing, I was a nobody living in fantasy land in a cornfield with a group of equally deluded individuals engaged in a giant circle....yeah.
But dont ya love it when someone tries to use one of those cheesy, made up positions as if God almighty set the person in that position. Laughable.
No, all these same questions came up in my life, and I asked them. These questions also came up in my twigs, and as twig leader I felt I had to help find answers if I didn't have them immediately. I led a twig '74-76, and 79-81, and lots of questions came up.
People asked all these same kinds of questions before you folks came to do it.
I would NEVER be able to make up the answers I posted.
On some things I've been rusty, but not totally. It's been a great review for me. I wanted to do this years ago here, but it took a while for me to pull my old notes together.
Nope, not making it up.
There ARE some points I am less sure about.
I am aware of them and want to work on them someday.
wow - and you're STILL musing over this stuff and trying to figure stuff out
seriously Mike - don't you think it's time to move on?
No, they wouldnt. Just like when Roaslie let the cult expert that BakerHostedder brought to HQ to interview people to see if TWI was really a cult, they would find out all they needed to know in a very short timeframe. The cult expert's conclusion that TWI was a cult based on these factors. Rosalie then made superficial changes in appearance only to make TWI seem like it was no longer a cult. Your acting like these highly trained profofessionals would stumble over spiritual matters, I assure they wouldnt.
Mike sees a scarcity of miracles because he believes mastering PFAL materials brings them about. That's really sad.
What?!?! OMG! This is hilarious. So stoopid. I already knew victor was a dump-dumb waterhead baby, but Rosalie makes him seem as smart as a sixth-grader. It says so much about...EVERYTHING.
Is there already a thread on this? Could you point me in the right direction?
Or could you explain more here? I mean, we are in the humor sub forum, right? So, it's relevant.
What?!?! OMG! This is hilarious. So stoopid. I already knew victor was a dump-dumb waterhead baby, but Rosalie makes him seem as smart as a sixth-grader. It says so much about...EVERYTHING.
Is there already a thread on this? Could you point me in the right direction?
Or could you explain more here? I mean, we are in the humor sub forum, right? So, it's relevant.
Word!! Exactly what happened. This is why the wooden spoon fell out of favor because all the mom's carried one. Imagine how freaky that looked to a cult expert. He probably laughed.
My illustration with my son covered a two year time span before I started to figure out something was rotten. In that two years I reshuffled the chairs on the titanic in every conceiveable configuration with no success.
What a graphic and eye opening metaphor about the law of believing debacle OldSkool. Nicely done !
Word!! Exactly what happened. This is why the wooden spoon fell out of favor because all the mom's carried one. Imagine how freaky that looked to a cult expert. He probably laughed.
What did he think - that all the moms were following the Scout motto "Be prepared?" Like they never knew when a batch of cookies might be needed.
Sadly, it's just another painful image only this time about the rod of correction debacle.
What did he think - that all the moms were following the Scout motto "Be prepared?" Like they never knew when a batch of cookies might be needed.
Sadly, it's just another painful image only this time about the rod of correction debacle.
They didnt want the perception that TWI promoted or condoned child abuse. There were plenty of abusive situation they want to cover up and the law suits were over abusive practices.
Word!! Exactly what happened. This is why the wooden spoon fell out of favor because all the mom's carried one. Imagine how freaky that looked to a cult expert. He probably laughed.
When was this?
Besides the wooden spoon, what other practices or doctrines were modified to make victor’s cult appear less like a cult?
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both "doors." Seeing as miracles and healing are manifestations, do the other manifestations open both "doors"?
Also, with discerning of spirits, does that mean a devil's spirit went through the "door" and was caught in the natural realm? If so, once exorcized, how would they get back to the spiritual realm as the door would be closed?
No matter how (H-O-W) one parses the huckster's bullshonta, logical leaps, imaginary constructions, scriptural twistings and back door cop outs will always be required to make it fit. ALWAYS.
"You're missing a step... the definition has changed... that's not the right goal post... you didn't REALLY understand it the first time... the huckster didn't REALLY teach it that way... the huckster didn't REALLY mean what he said... it's not in God's budget... there are other forces stronger than God.. but not REALLY... got to keep your realms rightly divided...."
Besides the wooden spoon, what other practices or doctrines were modified to make victor’s cult appear less like a cult?
2001ish. There were many many changes during that time, the wooden spoon was the most memorable. Its difficult to seperate which changes came from which action. With the cult expert we were told to be honest and talk to them. Yes, they had to tell people to be honest.
2001ish. There were many many changes during that time, the wooden spoon was the most memorable. Its difficult to seperate which changes came from which action. With the cult expert we were told to be honest and talk to them. Yes, they had to tell people to be honest.
Did you speak with the expert? What kind of questions were asked? The findings were that TWI is, indeed, a cult? Were these findings acknowledged by the cult "leadership"?
This seems so strange to me. Cults don't allow this kind of investigation. Then again, a cult in full blown denial, a cult of the seed of victor, would do anything, no matter how stoopid, to perpetuate the myth and keep the money coming.
It seems to me if a group has to ask, "Are we a cult?", they probably are.
Did you speak with the expert? What kind of questions were asked? The findings were that TWI is, indeed, a cult? Were these findings acknowledged by the cult "leadership"?
This seems so strange to me. Cults don't allow this kind of investigation. Then again, a cult in full blown denial, a cult of the seed of victor, would do anything, no matter how stoopid, to perpetuate the myth and keep the money coming.
It seems to me if a group has to ask, "Are we a cult?", they probably are.
Bizarre.
Personally, I didnt. My department coordinator at the time told us what was going on and if we were approached by this person to go ahead and be as candid as possible. The changes started soon afterwards. They basically reconfigured a lot of HQ specific practices after this person visited. If I had to guess I would say the way's lawyers were behind this maneuver in case the court cases did goto trial. So, yes, this was in the year 2000/2001 for certain. When the changes happened they happened quick. No more need basis employment arrangement, no longer mandatory to be at lunch, no longer mandatory to attend STS, pregnancy policy went away silently, on down the line.
Understand that the Allen lawsuit shook these idiots to the corps of their souls, and instead of coming clean and navigating the issues honestly they employ every underhanded, slap happy method to whitewash and conceal what wierwille and martindale had been doing all those years. They were in survival mode and they were likely smart enough to understand without their contrived, controlled environment they would all be working menial jobs someplace that doesnt care they were once directors of a cult.
Hey! What I found was something different. It's another Double Door scripture for my list. I boiled the list down to single lines for review. Also I hope it gets others seeing double doors open in the scriptures to help me build the list.
And I am also finishing up on the other scripture list. That's still a bunch of work, because it is much longer and more complicated. Still thinking some of it through.
Here is the latest, brief Double Doors list:
Genesis - Both God and the devil had access to Adam and Eve
In Exodus - Moses’ rod turns into a snake, court magicians do same
Naaman healed of leprosy, Gehazi catches leprosy.
Sampson’s last stand succeeds, and he dies.
Matt - John Baptist’s father w angel, cannot speak afterwards
Matt – Holy Spirit on Jesus, devil on Jesus mind in desert
Matt 4 – Devil tempts w/food, angels bring food
Acts - Stephen’s vision, Stephen’s stoning.
Acts – Paul sees Jesus, Paul blinded
Romans 5:20 death reigns, life reigns
1 Corinthians 16:9 great open door to Paul, many adversaries
2 Corinthians - abundance of revelations, thorn in the flesh
Hey! What I found was something different. It's another Double Door scripture for my list. I boiled the list down to single lines for review. Also I hope it gets others seeing double doors open in the scriptures to help me build the list.
And I am also finishing up on the other scripture list. That's still a bunch of work, because it is much longer and more complicated. Still thinking some of it through.
Here is the latest, brief Double Doors list:
Genesis - Both God and the devil had access to Adam and Eve
In Exodus - Moses’ rod turns into a snake, court magicians do same
Naaman healed of leprosy, Gehazi catches leprosy.
Sampson’s last stand succeeds, and he dies.
Matt - John Baptist’s father w angel, cannot speak afterwards
Matt – Holy Spirit on Jesus, devil on Jesus mind in desert
Matt 4 – Devil tempts w/food, angels bring food
Acts - Stephen’s vision, Stephen’s stoning.
Acts – Paul sees Jesus, Paul blinded
Romans 5:20 death reigns, life reigns
1 Corinthians 16:9 great open door to Paul, many adversaries
2 Corinthians - abundance of revelations, thorn in the flesh
Double doors? No, your just picking verses that show that there is a spiritual war raging between God and satan. Not only that but you are reading a concept into scripture where said concept does not exist: double doors.
Double doors? No, your just picking verses that show that there is a spiritual war raging between God and satan. Not only that but you are reading a concept into scripture where said concept does not exist: double doors.
More than the war which always rages, these are twin peaks in major power interventions, that are relatively close to each other in time.
Zooming out on the timeline, it looks like a lot of rolling hills and dales, with twin mountains sprinkled about lightly. ...or with scarcity.
Hey! What I found was something different. It's another Double Door scripture for my list. I boiled the list down to single lines for review. Also I hope it gets others seeing double doors open in the scriptures to help me build the list.
And I am also finishing up on the other scripture list. That's still a bunch of work, because it is much longer and more complicated. Still thinking some of it through.
Here is the latest, brief Double Doors list:
Genesis - Both God and the devil had access to Adam and Eve
In Exodus - Moses’ rod turns into a snake, court magicians do same
Naaman healed of leprosy, Gehazi catches leprosy.
Sampson’s last stand succeeds, and he dies.
Matt - John Baptist’s father w angel, cannot speak afterwards
Matt – Holy Spirit on Jesus, devil on Jesus mind in desert
Matt 4 – Devil tempts w/food, angels bring food
Acts - Stephen’s vision, Stephen’s stoning.
Acts – Paul sees Jesus, Paul blinded
Romans 5:20 death reigns, life reigns
1 Corinthians 16:9 great open door to Paul, many adversaries
2 Corinthians - abundance of revelations, thorn in the flesh
Hey!
Have you given these questions any thought
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both "doors." Seeing as miracles and healing are manifestations, do the other manifestations open both "doors"?
Also, with discerning of spirits, does that mean a devil's spirit went through the "door" and was caught in the natural realm? If so, once exorcized, how would they get back to the spiritual realm as the door would be closed?
Or are you just accepting cherry picked verses that support your theory?
Nah, it's not even cut and dried like that. By all accounts until the ressurection of Jesus Christ it wouldve appeared that satan had indeed won the war. For the most part in the Old Testament he carried what appeared to be the upper hand. I mean at times it came down to a very thin margin between God and satans victory. Our point of view is vastly different from what's found in the Old Testament. Its not now, and never had been some formulaic functioning of God limiting himself for the benefit of the devil and then allowing satan equal access. There is nothing anywhere that supports that point of view, except all the letting loose we grew accustomed to in the way international. We were taught to make the Bible fit around what wierwille insisted was the truth. We were lied to, God nor his Word bends to wierwille.
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both "doors." Seeing as miracles and healing are manifestations, do the other manifestations open both "doors"?
Also, with discerning of spirits, does that mean a devil's spirit went through the "door" and was caught in the natural realm? If so, once exorcized, how would they get back to the spiritual realm as the door would be closed?
Or are you just accepting cherry picked. Verses that support your theory?
First mistake is I did NOT say:
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both 'doors.'"
I think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done.
*/*/*
Please notice that I said these peaks I am noticing are twin "major interventions with power."
I am not talking about someone operating the 9 manifestations in general.
Yes, miracles and some healings can be pretty major, but they can also be lesser in manifested power. As I said above, once the doors are open a human may be involved in doing some of the work.
*/*/*
With discerning of spirits, I think you are stretching the door analogy way out of shape, just like someone stretched the budget analogy the other day. The doors are doors of opportunity, not like the water-tight doors of a ship's compartments as you are over-envisioning.
*/*/*
Cherry picked usually has a evil essence attached to it. It is false evidence.
It is like saying, "Mike, there are a lot of verses that directly contradict the double doors idea, and you avoided picking them."
Ok, then if you are going to accuse me of that, let me see the verses that I did not pick, but which directly contradict the double doors idea.
I don't mean verses that simply lack clues that say "double doors."
I mean verses that say pretty directly that the double doors idea can't be valid.
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OldSkool
Wasnt me, but the law of believing certainly sets a person on a prideful, unrealistic pedestal because it leads a person to believe that they can visualize their way out of anything, which is impossible.
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OldSkool
So, you are saying that if PFLAP isnt masered enough it causes self-destruction. How astute. Yet you are still trying to pump life into that BS. Do youever get tired of banging your head against the same obstacles?
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So_crates
Interesting coincidence. You just happen to post about not making stuff up after you posted something that was obviously made up.
People do not forget they are going to die one day, so, by extension they are aware others are going to die, too.
Also, why mention you twig coordinator experience? Your post would be fine without it. But then it wouldn't have the air of authority you thought your made up stuff needed.
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OldSkool
Oh ya, I used to boast that I WAS PRES CABINET...as if that really meant something...it doesnt, and it didnt, and it never did. It means I was one of a group of people given high-pressure administrative jobs to help the directors because they couldnt micromanage effectively enough with out such a support structure. We were nothing, I was a nobody living in fantasy land in a cornfield with a group of equally deluded individuals engaged in a giant circle....yeah.
But dont ya love it when someone tries to use one of those cheesy, made up positions as if God almighty set the person in that position. Laughable.
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T-Bone
wow - and you're STILL musing over this stuff and trying to figure stuff out
seriously Mike - don't you think it's time to move on?
even Captain Kirk says get a life!
Edited by T-BoneKirk out
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Nathan_Jr
What?!?! OMG! This is hilarious. So stoopid. I already knew victor was a dump-dumb waterhead baby, but Rosalie makes him seem as smart as a sixth-grader. It says so much about...EVERYTHING.
Is there already a thread on this? Could you point me in the right direction?
Or could you explain more here? I mean, we are in the humor sub forum, right? So, it's relevant.
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OldSkool
Word!! Exactly what happened. This is why the wooden spoon fell out of favor because all the mom's carried one. Imagine how freaky that looked to a cult expert. He probably laughed.
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Charity
What a graphic and eye opening metaphor about the law of believing debacle OldSkool. Nicely done
!
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Charity
What did he think - that all the moms were following the Scout motto "Be prepared?" Like they never knew when a batch of cookies might be needed.
Sadly, it's just another painful image only this time about the rod of correction debacle.
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OldSkool
They didnt want the perception that TWI promoted or condoned child abuse. There were plenty of abusive situation they want to cover up and the law suits were over abusive practices.
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Nathan_Jr
When was this?
Besides the wooden spoon, what other practices or doctrines were modified to make victor’s cult appear less like a cult?
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So_crates
I'm curious.
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both "doors." Seeing as miracles and healing are manifestations, do the other manifestations open both "doors"?
Also, with discerning of spirits, does that mean a devil's spirit went through the "door" and was caught in the natural realm? If so, once exorcized, how would they get back to the spiritual realm as the door would be closed?
@Mike
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Nathan_Jr
No matter how (H-O-W) one parses the huckster's bullshonta, logical leaps, imaginary constructions, scriptural twistings and back door cop outs will always be required to make it fit. ALWAYS.
"You're missing a step... the definition has changed... that's not the right goal post... you didn't REALLY understand it the first time... the huckster didn't REALLY teach it that way... the huckster didn't REALLY mean what he said... it's not in God's budget... there are other forces stronger than God.. but not REALLY... got to keep your realms rightly divided...."
It's turtles all the way down.
Why do people fall for this bulls hit?
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OldSkool
2001ish. There were many many changes during that time, the wooden spoon was the most memorable. Its difficult to seperate which changes came from which action. With the cult expert we were told to be honest and talk to them. Yes, they had to tell people to be honest.
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So_crates
Honest honest or Way honest?
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Nathan_Jr
Did you speak with the expert? What kind of questions were asked? The findings were that TWI is, indeed, a cult? Were these findings acknowledged by the cult "leadership"?
This seems so strange to me. Cults don't allow this kind of investigation. Then again, a cult in full blown denial, a cult of the seed of victor, would do anything, no matter how stoopid, to perpetuate the myth and keep the money coming.
It seems to me if a group has to ask, "Are we a cult?", they probably are.
Bizarre.
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OldSkool
Personally, I didnt. My department coordinator at the time told us what was going on and if we were approached by this person to go ahead and be as candid as possible. The changes started soon afterwards. They basically reconfigured a lot of HQ specific practices after this person visited. If I had to guess I would say the way's lawyers were behind this maneuver in case the court cases did goto trial. So, yes, this was in the year 2000/2001 for certain. When the changes happened they happened quick. No more need basis employment arrangement, no longer mandatory to be at lunch, no longer mandatory to attend STS, pregnancy policy went away silently, on down the line.
Understand that the Allen lawsuit shook these idiots to the corps of their souls, and instead of coming clean and navigating the issues honestly they employ every underhanded, slap happy method to whitewash and conceal what wierwille and martindale had been doing all those years. They were in survival mode and they were likely smart enough to understand without their contrived, controlled environment they would all be working menial jobs someplace that doesnt care they were once directors of a cult.
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T-Bone
Waldo went looking for miracles...
...and ended up finding himself.
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Mike
Hey! What I found was something different. It's another Double Door scripture for my list. I boiled the list down to single lines for review. Also I hope it gets others seeing double doors open in the scriptures to help me build the list.
And I am also finishing up on the other scripture list. That's still a bunch of work, because it is much longer and more complicated. Still thinking some of it through.
Here is the latest, brief Double Doors list:
Genesis - Both God and the devil had access to Adam and Eve
In Exodus - Moses’ rod turns into a snake, court magicians do same
Naaman healed of leprosy, Gehazi catches leprosy.
Sampson’s last stand succeeds, and he dies.
Matt - John Baptist’s father w angel, cannot speak afterwards
Matt – Holy Spirit on Jesus, devil on Jesus mind in desert
Matt 4 – Devil tempts w/food, angels bring food
Acts - Stephen’s vision, Stephen’s stoning.
Acts – Paul sees Jesus, Paul blinded
Romans 5:20 death reigns, life reigns
1 Corinthians 16:9 great open door to Paul, many adversaries
2 Corinthians - abundance of revelations, thorn in the flesh
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OldSkool
Double doors? No, your just picking verses that show that there is a spiritual war raging between God and satan. Not only that but you are reading a concept into scripture where said concept does not exist: double doors.
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Mike
More than the war which always rages, these are twin peaks in major power interventions, that are relatively close to each other in time.
Zooming out on the timeline, it looks like a lot of rolling hills and dales, with twin mountains sprinkled about lightly. ...or with scarcity.
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So_crates
Hey!
Have you given these questions any thought
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both "doors." Seeing as miracles and healing are manifestations, do the other manifestations open both "doors"?
Also, with discerning of spirits, does that mean a devil's spirit went through the "door" and was caught in the natural realm? If so, once exorcized, how would they get back to the spiritual realm as the door would be closed?
Or are you just accepting cherry picked verses that support your theory?
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OldSkool
Nah, it's not even cut and dried like that. By all accounts until the ressurection of Jesus Christ it wouldve appeared that satan had indeed won the war. For the most part in the Old Testament he carried what appeared to be the upper hand. I mean at times it came down to a very thin margin between God and satans victory. Our point of view is vastly different from what's found in the Old Testament. Its not now, and never had been some formulaic functioning of God limiting himself for the benefit of the devil and then allowing satan equal access. There is nothing anywhere that supports that point of view, except all the letting loose we grew accustomed to in the way international. We were taught to make the Bible fit around what wierwille insisted was the truth. We were lied to, God nor his Word bends to wierwille.
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Mike
First mistake is I did NOT say:
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both 'doors.'"
I think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done.
*/*/*
Please notice that I said these peaks I am noticing are twin "major interventions with power."
I am not talking about someone operating the 9 manifestations in general.
Yes, miracles and some healings can be pretty major, but they can also be lesser in manifested power. As I said above, once the doors are open a human may be involved in doing some of the work.
*/*/*
With discerning of spirits, I think you are stretching the door analogy way out of shape, just like someone stretched the budget analogy the other day. The doors are doors of opportunity, not like the water-tight doors of a ship's compartments as you are over-envisioning.
*/*/*
Cherry picked usually has a evil essence attached to it. It is false evidence.
It is like saying, "Mike, there are a lot of verses that directly contradict the double doors idea, and you avoided picking them."
Ok, then if you are going to accuse me of that, let me see the verses that I did not pick, but which directly contradict the double doors idea.
I don't mean verses that simply lack clues that say "double doors."
I mean verses that say pretty directly that the double doors idea can't be valid.
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