God’s Budget and Double Doors .... On the Scarcity of Miracles

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

There was a man born blind, and it wasn’t his parents fault, if I remember Jesus’ words right.

This is like a “$hit Happens” verse in my mind. 

Another one is Lazarus being very sick and Jesus doesn’t have the revelation to go to him immediately.  Everyone at Lazarus’ house were probably pulling hair out over lots of stuff, like how did Lazarus get so sick in the first place?

I noticed you haven’t brought the problem of how did your son get robbed of normalcy in the first place. That is a tough one too, that I have pulled my hair out over. I have often seen leadership twist the devil’s knife by accusing the victim of allowing it.  I had this thrown in my face more than once by Corps imitating what the were abuses with in training.

My best understanding, as I mentioned a few pages ago, is that in addition to the law of believing at work, there are others things going on, LOTS of other things going on, and they are war related and evil and not fair.  

Remember prophet who prayed that his student prophet could see this, and that there were twice as many angels on our side?  Lots of terrible confusing stuff happens in a war, even collateral damage.

Someday every tear will be wiped away, and everything will be fair and just, and “thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Now it seems like you’re backpedaling and    trying to reconcile   the erroneous big ideas in PFAL like the law of believing and getting desired results   with   how everything works in the real world.

 

Hebrews 11 addresses faith in the real world – OT saints believed God – EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SAW  the final fulfillment of God’s promises:

1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” ^a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she ^b considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” ^c 19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. ^d

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning; ^e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect… Hebrews 11 NIV

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

The OT saints had only shadows and a promise…NT saints have the substance and the fulfillment – Jesus Christ:

1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles

2Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus… Ephesians 3 NIV

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Now there’s a thought. Instead of all the hype and hard-shell of PFAL that you can have whatever you want, what if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ? I wonder how many grads of PFAL would still be interested?

I’ve heard all the pep talks on believing in TWI using Hebrews 11 – but they all ignored a few details – like faith…believing God means staying faithful to Him – it doesn’t matter how sucky your circumstances are and continue to be so indefinitely. But we do have something REALLY BIG that the OT saints didn’t have – God’s promise realized! We have Jesus Christ!

How did wierwille ‘market’ Christianity? As a cure-all for every problem. PFAL will show you the keys to the more abundant life and tap into the power of God…okay – here’s a challenge if you dare to accept – try reading Romans 8   WITHOUT the PFAL-filter in your head. It talks about “present sufferings”  oh my! Everything in creation – including us – is subjected to “frustration” – yikes! That ain’t good! The cosmos is in bondage to decay – I’m worn out just thinking about it! 

 

18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that ^h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who ⁱ have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” ^j

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, ^k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord… Romans 8 NIV

 

Yeah – kind of a downer if you stay continually focused on the negatives that are a part of life.

I look at my own life – and the well-being of my family we have issues – who doesn’t?

I’m hanging in there anyway – because Romans 8 says even through this messy thing called life - God is orchestrating the whole enchilada (how? I dunno)   so that I am being conformed to the image of His Son. I guess He knows what He’s doing – because I sure don’t!    

[So_crates]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Persistence in applying the law of believing is crucial also.

Remember the story where Jesus healed a blind man, but it didn't work right?

So, he did it again and it worked.

 

Yah, sure, how persistent do you think OS was with his son? You think that was a one shot deal?

How persist do you think I was in finding out where I went wrong? And now, at 67, after years of believing the stuff PLAF taught me and praying how many times,cnow that my youth is gone, God suddenly decides to tell me what I needed to know in my 20s, right?

If nothing else proves what bull this is, that does.

[Mike]

11 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Hebrews 11 addresses faith in the real world – OT saints believed God – EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SAW  the final fulfillment of God’s promises:

 

Please allow me to calm your hysteria down about them not receiving.

It was NOT the everyday operation of believing that did flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11.

It was NOT the miraculous operation of believing that flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11.

According to Hebrews 11 it was not seeing the Messiah born that they endured.

Of course, like all the apostles, the cloud of witnesses also eventually gave up and died.

I used to marvel at how many grads, feeling invincible with believing, were not so aware of all the apostles dying.  When I would remind them it was like a letdown I could see on  their faces.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Mike

[waysider]

33 minutes ago, Mike said:

I used to marvel at how many grads, feeling invincible with believing, were not so aware of all the apostles dying.  When I would remind them it was like a letdown I could see on  their faces

So, you're saying only you were aware that people die? When and where did you first become aware of this?

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

And please note how mike continues to assime scarcity of miracles in our lives. I have no shortage of miracles in my life, except I simply have no need to sound like Im boasting. So I will keep my life as private as needed in this regard.

Yeah, I hear you on that, OldSkool!

As a matter of public record on Grease Spot I hold to a similar ‘policy’ as you. One of the reasons I am that way is to ignore the can-you-top-this brag sessions and another reason is I like to refer to experiences and observations that are common to a lot of Grease Spotters and then I usually segue into Scripture and plain logic to make my case.

Too bad there’s not some legitimate sociologist who would take an interest in a study of PFAL grads 1 year after taking the class, 5 years after taking the class, 10 years after taking the class, etc., and maybe even do a Data Download like Chuck Todd does on Meet the Press with different graphs and stats to show trends of increasing financial wealth, or financial setbacks, job changes, infidelities, divorces, how many had children, and at the 1, 5, and 10 year benchmark also have a category to show level of satisfaction or sense of fulfillment...it might be a real eye-opener for some PFAL-diehards.

 

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

It sounds like you moved on, from an incomplete understanding of the PFAL version of how believing works, to a better understanding of item (3) and you can't control everything.  I imagine, too, when you read the Gospels and Jesus teaches on how believing works you feel better about his words.  Am I right about that?

 

No. I moved on from the law of believing in any and all forms to a faith based relationship with Jesus Christ. I would watch pflap for it's entertainment value and that's about it.

[waysider]

I think if I accidentally poisoned myself and the Poison Control center told me to induce vomiting I might seek out a copy of PFAL.

[OldSkool]

49 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Too bad there’s not some legitimate sociologist who would take an interest in a study of PFAL grads

It would be interesting to say the least. Personally, I feel without the fake, controlled fellowship environment, classes and all the re-indoctrination that most people would recognize pflap as  half baked, semi Christian self help material. I don't care which class and I don't care which version of pflap book. Without that group constantly rubbing in how great and miraculous the material is hardly anybody would arrive at the same conclusions based on applying the content alone. And God forbid a somewhat astute observer compares pflap to scripture because then it really falls flat. It's that Barnum and Bailey hype that convinces people of the material, not the fruit of the material itself.

Edited March 6, 2023 by OldSkool

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

 

Please allow me to calm your hysteria down about them not receiving.

You misinterpreted my bold red of “OT saints believed God – EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SAW  the final fulfillment of God’s promises” to mean I was hysterical. What’s hysterical is that you go through linguistic and logical contortions to the confusion of wierwille-fans everywhere.  

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

It was NOT the everyday operation of believing that did flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11.

It was NOT the miraculous operation of believing that flopped in their lives, according to Hebrews 11.

NOTHING FLOPPED in their lives! There’s NOTHING for them to be ashamed of. They’re in Hebrews 11, God’s Hall of Fame for Those of Faith because of their faith despite any circumstances! Geez Louise, quit trying to cause chaos in a serious discussion!   ...well I'm assuming this is a serious discussion...but look who started it. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

According to Hebrews 11 it was not seeing the Messiah born that they endured.

It doesn’t say that – I’ve already given a better and clearer explanation of what Hebrews 11:39 & 40 imply…back up and read my other post...go ahead I'll wait .   

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Of course, like all the apostles, the cloud of witnesses also eventually gave up and died.

Irrelevant…What does that have to do with the cost of PFAL Today? 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I used to marvel at how many grads, feeling invincible with believing, were not so aware of all the apostles dying.  When I would remind them it was like a letdown I could see on  their faces.

Holy $hit! You marveled at many grads not so aware of all the apostles dying?

Were these all adults?

Did they have any idea of when the Bible was written?

Amazing - just amazing!

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but you must have had a lot of really, really, REALLY stupid grads in your area – I mean like backwoods stupid... I hope any of them aren't reading your posts - because it will only make them feel ashamed...man, you're starting to sound like some way corps I knew who acted like they were God's gift to the church. what would we ever do without their in-depth spiritual perception and awareness?

 

[Mike]

31 minutes ago, waysider said:

So, you're saying only you were aware that people die? When and where did you first become aware of this?

LoL
You sound like Eliza, the ancient ChatGPT from 1964.

Actually you are better than her.
But you mimicked her lack of sentience very well.

I am assuming here that you deliberately distorted your query on my implying, and were playing a Rogerian therapist for humor's sake.

 

 

[T-Bone]

9 hours ago, waysider said:

You know what killed that little boy?

Budget cuts.

               

I wish I could upvote your post 50 times!

[chockfull]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I used to marvel at how many grads, feeling invincible with believing, were not so aware of all the apostles dying.  When I would remind them it was like a letdown I could see on  their faces.

And you have the “millions still smoking” on your SIT lift list.

You go paradigm PFAL grad you.  It’s your birthday.  !!!

I’m reminding you of this so we can see that frown  turn upside down!

[T-Bone]

39 minutes ago, waysider said:

I think if I accidentally poisoned myself and the Poison Control center told me to induce vomiting I might seek out a copy of PFAL.

If you have access to the Internet - this YouTube is just as effective:

 

[Mike]

50 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Too bad there’s not some legitimate sociologist who would take an interest in a study of PFAL grads 1 year after taking the class, 5 years after taking the class, 10 years after taking the class, etc., and maybe even do a Data Download like Chuck Todd does on Meet the Press with different graphs and stats to show trends of increasing financial wealth, or financial setbacks, job changes, infidelities, divorces, how many had children, and at the 1, 5, and 10 year benchmark also have a category to show level of satisfaction or sense of fulfillment...it might be a real eye-opener for some PFAL-diehards.

Thanks for the reminder.  I’ve seen NUMEROUS times where I wanted to say this but didn’t have the time or the multi-tasking skills it demanded.

In 2 Peter, at the very end of the Epistle, in Peter’s dying last words to us, we read:

“ Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.  He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15,16)

 

That sociologist would have to grade grads on a curve, or some other statistical trick, to take into account this kind of “self-destruction” factor for grads who didn’t master the material enough.

I think what Peter was talking about then happened to us. It was good teaching, but it was hard to totally understand, and some went off the road with inaccurate understandings of the law of believing. 

I know this happened to me, and I had a tough slow time correcting it. I saw it happen to some of my friends over the years, and I strongly sense that it happened to lots of posters here, too.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Mike

[waysider]

Note to self:

Must master materials.

I think I can

I think I can

I KNOW I CAN!

 

(I'm a real boy!)

Edited March 6, 2023 by waysider

[Mike]

23 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Were these all adults?... Did they have any idea of when the Bible was written? ... Amazing - just amazing! ... I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone, but you must have had a lot of really, really, REALLY stupid grads in your area – I mean like backwoods stupid... I hope any of them aren't reading your posts - because it will only make them feel ashamed...man, you're starting to sound like some way corps I knew who acted like they were God's gift to the church. what would we ever do without their in-depth spiritual perception and awareness?

NO.
It wasn't that way at all.  

It was usually just a new grad who was expressing a little over enthusiasm for the law of believing, like the way OldSkool said he felt invincible with the class teaching on believing (?think it was OS?)

I'd mention the apostles dying because I could see the emotion had chased away their reasoning ability a tiny bit.  In the rush of feelings they were forgetting that the apostles died.  My gentle reminder would pull up their memory with no trouble.

Now aren't you ashamed your yourself for thinking the worst of your brothers and sisters? 

Did you REALLY think my friends were that ignorant?  Or was that just a "stage question" for the dramatic effect on the folks at home reading this?

 

[So_crates]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

NO.
It wasn't that way at all.  

It was usually just a new grad who was expressing a little over enthusiasm for the law of believing, like the way OldSkool said he felt invincible with the class teaching on believing (?think it was OS?)

I'd mention the apostles dying because I could see the emotion had chased away their reasoning ability a tiny bit.  In the rush of feelings they were forgetting that the apostles died.  My gentle reminder would pull up their memory with no trouble.

Now aren't you ashamed your yourself for thinking the worst of your brothers and sisters? 

Did you REALLY think my friends were that ignorant?  Or was that just a "stage question" for the dramatic effect on the folks at home reading this?

 

I think it's more like you tried to pass off a whopper and got called out on it.

[T-Bone]

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

That sociologist would have to grade grads on a curve, or some other statistical trick, to take into account this kind of “self-destruction” factor for grads who didn’t master the material enough.

NOPE !!!

NOPE !!!

NOPE !!!

I specified a legitimate sociologist – that’s an expert who adheres to standards, rules and studies the development, structure, and functioning of human society. NOT some burnt-out cult-follower has-been who skews data – real and imaginary - according to his own personal Kool-Aid Litmus Test to determine if grads drank enough Kool-Aid. 

 

[T-Bone]

12 minutes ago, waysider said:

Note to self:

Must master materials.

I think I can

I think I can

I KNOW I CAN!

 

(I'm a real boy!)

Be advised, you cannot pay for the class in wooden nickels.

[T-Bone]

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

Now aren't you ashamed your yourself for thinking the worst of your brothers and sisters? 

Did you REALLY think my friends were that ignorant?  Or was that just a "stage question" for the dramatic effect on the folks at home reading this?

nope - those were YOUR words! You can't backpedal your way out of that one!

you should be ashamed for representing your fellow grads in such a demeaning manner. 

 

[OldSkool]

36 minutes ago, Mike said:

That sociologist would have to grade grads on a curve, or some other statistical trick, to take into account this kind of “self-destruction” factor for grads who didn’t master the material enough.

No, they wouldnt. Just like when Roaslie let the cult expert that BakerHostedder brought to HQ to interview people to see if TWI was really a cult, they would find out all they needed to know in a very short timeframe. The cult expert's conclusion that TWI was a cult based on these factors. Rosalie then made superficial changes in appearance only to make TWI seem like it was no longer a cult. Your acting like these highly trained profofessionals would stumble over spiritual matters, I assure they wouldnt.

Mike sees a scarcity of miracles because he believes mastering PFAL materials brings them about. That's really sad.

Edited March 6, 2023 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

I think if I accidentally poisoned myself and the Poison Control center told me to induce vomiting I might seek out a copy of PFAL.

I would need two copies of pflap, one to induce vomiting and the other one to cover up the mess..

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, So_crates said:

Yah, sure, how persistent do you think OS was with his son? You think that was a one shot deal?

My illustration with my son covered a two year time span before I started to figure out something was rotten. In that two years I reshuffled the chairs on the titanic in every conceiveable configuration with no success.

[Mike]

19 hours ago, So_crates said:

Life may be unfair, but God isn't.

Are you making this stuff up as you go. It sure feels like it.

 

18 hours ago, So_crates said:

God makes the rules of believing and the abundant life, not the devil. God is fair, therefore the rules of believing are fair.

You're just making up a training period to cover for not being able to answer Waysider's question which apparently brings into question the validity of the law of believing.

 

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Nope – that’s not going to cut it!!!!!

It appears you’re making $hit up again. 

So now there’s more to account for than just the law of believing. ...

 

No, all these same questions came up in my life, and I asked them.  These questions also came up in my twigs, and as twig leader I felt I had to help find answers if I didn't have them immediately.  I led a twig '74-76, and 79-81, and lots of questions came up. 

People asked all these same kinds of questions before you folks came to do it. 

I would NEVER be able to make up the answers I posted. 

On some things I've been rusty, but not totally. It's been a great review for me. I wanted to do this years ago here, but it took a while for me to pull my old notes together.

Nope, not making it up.

There ARE some points I am less sure about. 
I am aware of them and want to work on them someday.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Mike

[OldSkool]

33 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think what Peter was talking about then happened to us.

My Lord, I have seen people imagine themselves into scripture in so many, many ways. Like parallells between Vic and the Apostle Paul passing down the mantle to craig the way Paul did with Timothy. You guys sure like to pretend. But you ignore the scriptures that Peter mentioned that accurately describe Vic, Craig and all the rest who were in on their escapades.

2 Peter 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: