You weren't there. At the end of his life VPW directed all us grads to to back to the class and master it. Special attention was given to the written materials that came with the class. This directive was first aimed at top leadership, and then to us all.
Some of us had pretty well memorized tons of lines in the film soundtrack, but were very negligent in mastering the collaterals. We all blew off this directive and the ministry died a year later. A monster rose in its place, the TWI-2 and TWI-3 you fairly rightly despise.
HAD we followed this directive we would have noticed the the red drapes were deleted, and we would not have leaned on that story so much for doctrine.
"The class" was completely complete. The perfection of the original "class" could never be duplicated. That's why the '77 PFAL was scrapped at the last minute.
You are close, but still missing it.
The film class was pretty good, but it had mistakes of several sorts. I still believe there were portions that were "straight prophecy." But where they began and where they ended was problematic.
The books were the distillation of the audios, and that goes for more than the class.
God was happy with the 1968 film class and unhappy with the planned replacement, and when VPW finally was able to hear that, he scrapped the original goal of PFAL'77. I was personally present when he announced this to the staff at lunch 4 days before PFAL'77 started, and some of it was repeated on the following SNT tape.
This incident and VPW's frank admission that he had blown it and had not been listening to God, told me that there were possibly other occasions where this kind of think could have happened.
I thought that this admission was very interesting, in that I never once heard anyone talk about it in the years since.
It got shoved under the rug with all the PFAL'77 excitement started, a few days later. Lots of grads idolized him, and could not soundly entertain the possibility that he could be wrong about other things. Those vpw idolators were severely hurt when the facts started coming out, and they flipped or snapped into vpw haters.
You really know how to push my buttons, don't you.
Here's a sample of what I am talking about for you to reject: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jesus breathing on them does not qualify as an excellor session
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
Here's a few ways you can see for yourself how at numerous times Jesus prepared his apostles for Pentecost.
preparation for an excellor session is not an excellor session
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
Look in the 2nd appendix of RHST for all the occurrences of "spirit" in the NT. Take special note of the context when Jesus speaks the word "spirit" or "Ghost" as in the verse above.
Jesus talking about spirit or ghost does not qualify as excellor session
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
Also, in John's Gospel, the narrator explains a few times that Jesus was speaking of a later time, when spirit would come on Pentecost. John has several such interesting "flash forwards" in time, and this is hinted at in the class once. The term "flash forward" was not used in the hint; that's mine, copyright 2023.
Jesus speaking of Pentecost and what would come does not qualify as excellor session
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
I also remember, that in another place Jesus talks about not rehearsing or premeditating, but waiting for the spirit to inspire.
Jesus making prefatory remarks does not qualify as excellor session.
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
I think I have a list of more in some ancient paper folder, but I am out of squat now.
that's ok forget squat.
learn why PARTICIPATING IN excellor session is DIFFERENT than
a teacher telling students beforehand what to expect in a excellor session
That's not how I remember it.
Shall I fetch the transcript?
I see you're still driving your Dodge.
Like I said before, you don't minister to people by spinning the truth. Only the truth itself sets you (and them) free.
The woman requested Saint Vic pray for a material need, an apartment. Then she requested a greed, red drapes (I seriously doubt she would have died if she didn't get red drapes.)
Now, you don't need to have a PhD in logic to know that drapes are physical things and not spiritual, therefore God provided physical abundance.
Please do look up your transcript and while your at it show me where in the class it says PLAF is only for spiritual abundance and do it without retconning or spinning.
God was happy with the 1968 film class and unhappy with the planned replacement, and when VPW finally was able to hear that, he scrapped the original goal of PFAL'77.
How do you KNOW God was happy or unhappy?
Are you God's spokesperson?
who put you in charge?
why should I believe you?
why do you say stuff like this?
do you say this stuff to friends, family and where you work?
The film class was pretty good, but it had mistakes of several sorts.
Precisely, scientifically, the class was riddled with "mistakes" and error in every segment of every session.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
I still believe there were portions that were "straight prophecy."
I know.
8 minutes ago, Mike said:
But where they began and where they ended was problematic.
Prophesy is not problematic, neither where it begins nor where it ends. So, it must not be prophesy. Math.
10 minutes ago, Mike said:
The books were the distillation of the audios, and that goes for more than the class.
I see. Scrubbing. Whitewashing. Got it!
11 minutes ago, Mike said:
God was happy with the 1968 film class and unhappy with the planned replacement,
He was?
12 minutes ago, Mike said:
I was personally present when he announced this to the staff at lunch 4 days before PFAL'77 started, and some of it was repeated on the following SNT tape.
Well, that settles it! Victor said it, you beleeeved it....
13 minutes ago, Mike said:
This incident and VPW's frank admission that he had blown it and had not been listening to God, told me that there were possibly other occasions where this kind of think could have happened.
This is gut-busting hilarity unto itself.
I'll let it sit there like a duck.
16 minutes ago, Mike said:
I thought that this admission was very interesting,
Is that what you thought? Well, it's settled then.
23 minutes ago, Mike said:
in that I never once heard anyone talk about it in the years since.
That's not how I remember it.
Shall I fetch the transcript?
So, if the ministry didn't hawk material abundance, what was the point of living "at need"? The point other than adding a few thousand a month to Saint Vic's coffers, that is.
Or does giving equals recieving mean something else too?
You wanna know what killed that lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes? Well, I'll tell you. Some little boy was crossing the street and dropped a PFAL book in the road (It was the older version.). A big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) being driven by a traveling salesman with a death wish came a barreling down the road like a house afire and swerved to avoid the little boy, as he paused to save his precious book.(The older version) The lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes, being traumatized by the event that she was about to witness, froze right there in the path of the big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) and commenced to yammerin' a string of strange words, the likes of which the little boy had never, ever heard before in his short but precious life. She didn't look left and she didn't look right and, well, you guessed it. She done got squashed like a June Bug on a hot summer night. I wish I could have been there to see it. It was really somethin'!
You wanna know what killed that lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes? Well, I'll tell you. Some little boy was crossing the street and dropped a PFAL book in the road (It was the older version.). A big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) being driven by a traveling salesman with a death wish came a barreling down the road like a house afire and swerved to avoid the little boy, as he paused to save his precious book.(The older version) The lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes, being traumatized by the event that she was about to witness, froze right there in the path of the big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) and commenced to yammerin' a string of strange words, the likes of which the little boy had never, ever heard before in his short but precious life. She didn't look left and she didn't look right and, well, you guessed it. She done got squashed like a June Bug on a hot summer night. I wish I could have been there to see it. It was really somethin'!
did the PFAL book (the older version) make it out okay?
I'm going to branch this off so as not to derail this thread, but there are three reasons off the top of my head that should cause reasonable people to doubt the "linguist witnessed and confirmed S.I.T." story as presented.
1. As is almost always the case in these stories, we do not know the identities or capabilities of key participants. Namely, two people spoke in tongues and actually produced a language. Who are they? Don't know. Where are they from? Don't know. What exposure have they had to the languages they produced? Don't know. Without the answers to those questions, it is reasonable to doubt that they did anything miraculous.
Do we know the ID of the linguist? I'm of the impression that it's Dubofsky's dad, but I need to be sure to further research the claim.
2. The linguist dismissed the SIT and interpretation claim on the grounds that the interpretation was only close, not exact. Now we need evidence of the linguist's fluency in the two languages presented. There is a universe of difference between recognizing a language and being able to translate on the fly with enough precision to differentiate between a "close enough" interpretation and one that's on the nmnose. So where are the credentials?
2. The linguist's RESPONSE to witnessing this foundation shaking event defies credibility. A real linguist would have been blown away, conducted a thorough investigation, and published his results. He would be a legend in his field, not a legendary story on a message board.
NOT THIS GUY. He is utterly OBLIVIOUS to the magnitude of what he just witnessed. "Sorry. There was a preposition out of place. Nice try, though."
Horse hit, no matter what your presuppositions are.
did the PFAL book (the older version) make it out okay?
Sadly, it did not. A street cleaning crew swept its remains to the gutter where it was picked up by a homeless person who did, in fact, find it to be useful for starting the fire in a warming barrel. Which, when you think about it, is a bit of a twisted miracle, in that it may have kept that man from freezing to death that bitterly cold August night in Ohio.
Sadly, it did not. A street cleaning crew swept its remains to the gutter where it was picked up by a homeless person who did, in fact, find it to be useful for starting the fire in a warming barrel. Which, when you think about it, is a bit of a twisted miracle, in that it may have kept that man from freezing to death that bitterly cold August night in Ohio.
And the twisted miracle kept on twisting. A maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist envisioned a cash cow (the classic business jargon version) stole the warming barrel (PFAL book – the older version – now in ashes) and in his portable art studio (altered motorcoach – refurbished by Classic Perversion Conversions) he completely, completely, absolutely completely turned it into a cremation urn…in his decrepit old age the maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist with a checkered past and chubby from the exceedingly abundantly above moolah coming in, said “let’s twist again like we did last snow storm” and he made mini-urn (aka PFAL Today - - the new version).
The film class was pretty good, but it had mistakes of several sorts. I still believe there were portions that were "straight prophecy." But where they began and where they ended was problematic.
The books were the distillation of the audios, and that goes for more than the class.
God was happy with the 1968 film class and unhappy with the planned replacement, and when VPW finally was able to hear that, he scrapped the original goal of PFAL'77. I was personally present when he announced this to the staff at lunch 4 days before PFAL'77 started, and some of it was repeated on the following SNT tape.
This incident and VPW's frank admission that he had blown it and had not been listening to God, told me that there were possibly other occasions where this kind of think could have happened.
I thought that this admission was very interesting, in that I never once heard anyone talk about it in the years since.
It got shoved under the rug with all the PFAL'77 excitement started, a few days later. Lots of grads idolized him, and could not soundly entertain the possibility that he could be wrong about other things. Those vpw idolators were severely hurt when the facts started coming out, and they flipped or snapped into vpw haters.
One more completely delusional post with the poster assuming what God is happy with or not.
This is easy to do when your god is an idol of VPW and his works. This thick headed nonce describes VPW idolators like he is not their king. Mike is the king of VPW idolators.
Also the condescending tone about “close but missing it”. Dude you have missed it for 3 decades despite your parent child tone.
And w/r to the JCNG debacle no uncapitalizing god and lord and combining them does not come close to handling the doubting Thomas scriptures despite your condescending tone. It is just repeating the same BS that is in the book and is just as sketchy when quoted here.
Doubling down on your idolatry and arguing with everyone here gives you an emotional payday that is why you keep it up.
But in reality it really would not practically matter if what you were selling was VPWs plagiarized BS or Joseph Smiths fictional Book of Mormon or LRHs nonsensical ramblings to reach “clear”.
Destructive cults are destructive to all who are not high up enough on the Pharisee ladder to benefit from the pillaged riches.
Which leads me to the logical conclusion that is what you are in some undisclosed way. High enough up in the cult to benefit. Either that or you are about a 70 IQ nonce. Take your pick.
Doubling down on your idolatry and arguing with everyone here gives you an emotional payday that is why you keep it up.
I remember being on mike's side of the fense and arguing with people I was selling classes....I mean witnessing to and I remember it well. I would have fantasies of arguing with spirits and sending them into discomfiture in some make believe spiritual competition that takes between our ears...and all that mess....deliverance has never felt so good and mike reminds me of where I came from and encourages me to keep on heading where Im headed. Sucks for mike to remain in this state but we all have our choices.
That's not how I remember it.
Shall I fetch the transcript?
I'm 14 hours behind in my backlog, so I don't know if anyone commented on this yet.
My best memory on the red drapes was that it expanded VPW's ability to think big about God's generosity and ability. Scouts Honor, I did not yet consult the transcript. But I did consult my dimming memory of posting on it here in the past, like 17 years ago.
I distinctly remember first discovering the deletion of the red drapes from the PFAL book, while we were debating the red drapes meaning here. I immediately posted here about this discovery, and it caused quite a stir.
I thought it was significant that NO ONE knew about the deletion, including me.
It reinforced my conviction that NONE of us (including me) went deeper than barely scratching the surface in PFAL, especially in the collaterals.
*/*/*/
If you can't find this incident in the archives here, let me know, and I will search for it in my copies of the threads that were lost in the Pruning Crisis of circa 2007? It may have been earlier.
There are many other posters in these lost threads I have. I am willing to donate them to whoever is able to code them into the current GSC software.
Being a coder myself, this would be massively difficult, because the files in my archive were saved in several different file formats, 2 different browsers, and includes at least 2 different GSC software platforms. Still, it's a big chunk of GSC history, unless someone had made archive copies before the Pruning Crisis.
*/*/*
Anyone who's hooked on trivia might want to test themselves on what was the main point the Red Drapes story being in the film class. It is stated clearly in the transcript pretty well etched into my memory.
Anyone want to play my trivia game here?
If you have a transcript, then by Scout's Honor you are bound to withdraw from the quiz.
So far I know the cynical guesses I did see prior to my 14 hour backlog were wrong. I know for sure the point of the Red Drapes was NOT to encourage us all to envision houses with 3 car garages and carloads of money.
Hint: the answer to the trivia quiz is related to "be anxious for nothing."
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Mike
You weren't there. At the end of his life VPW directed all us grads to to back to the class and master it. Special attention was given to the written materials that came with the class. This directive was first aimed at top leadership, and then to us all.
Some of us had pretty well memorized tons of lines in the film soundtrack, but were very negligent in mastering the collaterals. We all blew off this directive and the ministry died a year later. A monster rose in its place, the TWI-2 and TWI-3 you fairly rightly despise.
HAD we followed this directive we would have noticed the the red drapes were deleted, and we would not have leaned on that story so much for doctrine.
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Mike
Boy, did you miss it. It was a long read and required a good attention span. I understand. Maybe if you try again after getting some rest?
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Mike
NOT AT ALL.
It may have been because people were not picking up on the right points, like with the unforgivable sin segmeht.
Do you remember the point he was making with the red drapes?
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Mike
That's not how I remember it.
Shall I fetch the transcript?
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Nathan_Jr
Or one could just read it in the original, in Bullinger, in little book hat took victor 18hrs per day for 30 years to copy.
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Mike
You are close, but still missing it.
The film class was pretty good, but it had mistakes of several sorts. I still believe there were portions that were "straight prophecy." But where they began and where they ended was problematic.
The books were the distillation of the audios, and that goes for more than the class.
God was happy with the 1968 film class and unhappy with the planned replacement, and when VPW finally was able to hear that, he scrapped the original goal of PFAL'77. I was personally present when he announced this to the staff at lunch 4 days before PFAL'77 started, and some of it was repeated on the following SNT tape.
This incident and VPW's frank admission that he had blown it and had not been listening to God, told me that there were possibly other occasions where this kind of think could have happened.
I thought that this admission was very interesting, in that I never once heard anyone talk about it in the years since.
It got shoved under the rug with all the PFAL'77 excitement started, a few days later. Lots of grads idolized him, and could not soundly entertain the possibility that he could be wrong about other things. Those vpw idolators were severely hurt when the facts started coming out, and they flipped or snapped into vpw haters.
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Nathan_Jr
The ministry died because it was built on a pile of sandy lies instead of rock.
The monster was spawned from victor's own seed. Victor seeded that monster.
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T-Bone
Jesus breathing on them does not qualify as an excellor session
preparation for an excellor session is not an excellor session
Jesus talking about spirit or ghost does not qualify as excellor session
Jesus speaking of Pentecost and what would come does not qualify as excellor session
Jesus making prefatory remarks does not qualify as excellor session.
that's ok forget squat.
learn why PARTICIPATING IN excellor session is DIFFERENT than
a teacher telling students beforehand what to expect in a excellor session
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So_crates
I see you're still driving your Dodge.
Like I said before, you don't minister to people by spinning the truth. Only the truth itself sets you (and them) free.
The woman requested Saint Vic pray for a material need, an apartment. Then she requested a greed, red drapes (I seriously doubt she would have died if she didn't get red drapes.)
Now, you don't need to have a PhD in logic to know that drapes are physical things and not spiritual, therefore God provided physical abundance.
Please do look up your transcript and while your at it show me where in the class it says PLAF is only for spiritual abundance and do it without retconning or spinning.
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T-Bone
How do you KNOW God was happy or unhappy?
Are you God's spokesperson?
who put you in charge?
why should I believe you?
why do you say stuff like this?
do you say this stuff to friends, family and where you work?
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Nathan_Jr
Precisely, scientifically, the class was riddled with "mistakes" and error in every segment of every session.
I know.
Prophesy is not problematic, neither where it begins nor where it ends. So, it must not be prophesy. Math.
I see. Scrubbing. Whitewashing. Got it!
He was?
Well, that settles it! Victor said it, you beleeeved it....
This is gut-busting hilarity unto itself.
I'll let it sit there like a duck.
Is that what you thought? Well, it's settled then.
You didn't?
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So_crates
So, if the ministry didn't hawk material abundance, what was the point of living "at need"? The point other than adding a few thousand a month to Saint Vic's coffers, that is.
Or does giving equals recieving mean something else too?
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Charity
Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
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OldSkool
Its only PFLAP that I take issue with.
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waysider
You wanna know what killed that lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes? Well, I'll tell you. Some little boy was crossing the street and dropped a PFAL book in the road (It was the older version.). A big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) being driven by a traveling salesman with a death wish came a barreling down the road like a house afire and swerved to avoid the little boy, as he paused to save his precious book.(The older version) The lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes, being traumatized by the event that she was about to witness, froze right there in the path of the big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) and commenced to yammerin' a string of strange words, the likes of which the little boy had never, ever heard before in his short but precious life. She didn't look left and she didn't look right and, well, you guessed it. She done got squashed like a June Bug on a hot summer night. I wish I could have been there to see it. It was really somethin'!
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T-Bone
did the PFAL book (the older version) make it out okay?
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Raf
I'm going to branch this off so as not to derail this thread, but there are three reasons off the top of my head that should cause reasonable people to doubt the "linguist witnessed and confirmed S.I.T." story as presented.
1. As is almost always the case in these stories, we do not know the identities or capabilities of key participants. Namely, two people spoke in tongues and actually produced a language. Who are they? Don't know. Where are they from? Don't know. What exposure have they had to the languages they produced? Don't know. Without the answers to those questions, it is reasonable to doubt that they did anything miraculous.
Do we know the ID of the linguist? I'm of the impression that it's Dubofsky's dad, but I need to be sure to further research the claim.
2. The linguist dismissed the SIT and interpretation claim on the grounds that the interpretation was only close, not exact. Now we need evidence of the linguist's fluency in the two languages presented. There is a universe of difference between recognizing a language and being able to translate on the fly with enough precision to differentiate between a "close enough" interpretation and one that's on the nmnose. So where are the credentials?
2. The linguist's RESPONSE to witnessing this foundation shaking event defies credibility. A real linguist would have been blown away, conducted a thorough investigation, and published his results. He would be a legend in his field, not a legendary story on a message board.
NOT THIS GUY. He is utterly OBLIVIOUS to the magnitude of what he just witnessed. "Sorry. There was a preposition out of place. Nice try, though."
Horse hit, no matter what your presuppositions are.
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waysider
Sadly, it did not. A street cleaning crew swept its remains to the gutter where it was picked up by a homeless person who did, in fact, find it to be useful for starting the fire in a warming barrel. Which, when you think about it, is a bit of a twisted miracle, in that it may have kept that man from freezing to death that bitterly cold August night in Ohio.
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T-Bone
And the twisted miracle kept on twisting. A maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist envisioned a cash cow (the classic business jargon version) stole the warming barrel (PFAL book – the older version – now in ashes) and in his portable art studio (altered motorcoach – refurbished by Classic Perversion Conversions) he completely, completely, absolutely completely turned it into a cremation urn…in his decrepit old age the maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist with a checkered past and chubby from the exceedingly abundantly above moolah coming in, said “let’s twist again like we did last snow storm” and he made mini-urn (aka PFAL Today - - the new version).
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waysider
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OldSkool
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chockfull
One more completely delusional post with the poster assuming what God is happy with or not.
This is easy to do when your god is an idol of VPW and his works. This thick headed nonce describes VPW idolators like he is not their king. Mike is the king of VPW idolators.
Also the condescending tone about “close but missing it”. Dude you have missed it for 3 decades despite your parent child tone.
And w/r to the JCNG debacle no uncapitalizing god and lord and combining them does not come close to handling the doubting Thomas scriptures despite your condescending tone. It is just repeating the same BS that is in the book and is just as sketchy when quoted here.
Doubling down on your idolatry and arguing with everyone here gives you an emotional payday that is why you keep it up.
But in reality it really would not practically matter if what you were selling was VPWs plagiarized BS or Joseph Smiths fictional Book of Mormon or LRHs nonsensical ramblings to reach “clear”.
Destructive cults are destructive to all who are not high up enough on the Pharisee ladder to benefit from the pillaged riches.
Which leads me to the logical conclusion that is what you are in some undisclosed way. High enough up in the cult to benefit. Either that or you are about a 70 IQ nonce. Take your pick.
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OldSkool
I remember being on mike's side of the fense and arguing with people I was selling classes....I mean witnessing to and I remember it well. I would have fantasies of arguing with spirits and sending them into discomfiture in some make believe spiritual competition that takes between our ears...and all that mess....deliverance has never felt so good and mike reminds me of where I came from and encourages me to keep on heading where Im headed. Sucks for mike to remain in this state but we all have our choices.
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Mike
I'm 14 hours behind in my backlog, so I don't know if anyone commented on this yet.
My best memory on the red drapes was that it expanded VPW's ability to think big about God's generosity and ability. Scouts Honor, I did not yet consult the transcript. But I did consult my dimming memory of posting on it here in the past, like 17 years ago.
I distinctly remember first discovering the deletion of the red drapes from the PFAL book, while we were debating the red drapes meaning here. I immediately posted here about this discovery, and it caused quite a stir.
I thought it was significant that NO ONE knew about the deletion, including me.
It reinforced my conviction that NONE of us (including me) went deeper than barely scratching the surface in PFAL, especially in the collaterals.
*/*/*/
If you can't find this incident in the archives here, let me know, and I will search for it in my copies of the threads that were lost in the Pruning Crisis of circa 2007? It may have been earlier.
There are many other posters in these lost threads I have. I am willing to donate them to whoever is able to code them into the current GSC software.
Being a coder myself, this would be massively difficult, because the files in my archive were saved in several different file formats, 2 different browsers, and includes at least 2 different GSC software platforms. Still, it's a big chunk of GSC history, unless someone had made archive copies before the Pruning Crisis.
*/*/*
Anyone who's hooked on trivia might want to test themselves on what was the main point the Red Drapes story being in the film class. It is stated clearly in the transcript pretty well etched into my memory.
Anyone want to play my trivia game here?
If you have a transcript, then by Scout's Honor you are bound to withdraw from the quiz.
So far I know the cynical guesses I did see prior to my 14 hour backlog were wrong. I know for sure the point of the Red Drapes was NOT to encourage us all to envision houses with 3 car garages and carloads of money.
Hint: the answer to the trivia quiz is related to "be anxious for nothing."
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