Nathan Jr, you had written:
"What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. "
Ohhh!
You simply did not understand why VPW made his SIT sound that way.
I wondered about that film class SIT mechanicalness for a few years, and then when I worked at HQ, in one Sunday 10:30am meeting I saw and clearly heard VPW speak in tongues and interpret. It was NOT mechanical, and it was VERY fluent, lots of beautiful language. I don't think there was a single shonta.
Now WHY did he do it so mechanically in the class?
It was to demonstrate (with emphasis) WHAT we needed to do with OUR mechanics of speech as our part in SIT.
In my excellors sessions I would do the same exaggerated amplitudes of facial muscles, and slowness of speech, dragging it out un-naturally. I did it so people could see what is meant by "mechanics of speech."
Remember SIT cannot be taught per se.... HOWEVER the fears that prevent or hinder SIT can be the topic of a teaching, in how to recognize such fears and overcome them.
The other thing that can be taught in leading people to SIT is what is God's part in the matter and what is our part in the matter.
Both parts can be seen in Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
They (the 12 apostles) did the operation of the mechanics of speech as to WHEN to speak, and God did the operation of supplying WHAT to speak.
So the mechanics of speech is very important to be taught with both words, and with body motion illustrations with exaggerated amplitudes and durations.
In other words it is SUPPOSED to be a mechanical and flesh bound triviality when it comes to the part WE have to do in SIT. VPW demonstrated this when he did SIT in the film.
I figured this out in the 70s and it helped a lot of people over the hump in several Intermediate Classes.
You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style?
The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching. Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error.
God does the hard part in supplying what is said. We do simple, trivial, mechanical, fleshh actions, and God designed the human body with this S.I.T. stuff in mind,and He wanted to make it as easy as possible, so "no one gets missed."
People don’t need to focus on “the mechanics of speech” to do anything. If it is a miraculous occurrence then it will happen by not faking it.
Wierwille spoke small phrases in known languages to dupe the ministers onstage at Oral Roberts function where he met JE Stiles. Stiles professed to have led over 10,000 people individually into SIT. No idea if that number is accurate or how many of those were real as opposed to fake. No idea what mechanics he shared with VP to get him over a personal hurdle, or whether or not VP was faking all the time. But likely it was different things shared personally for each person.
Over emphasizing mechanics of speech and speaking weirdly or slowly was not a way Jesus taught ever.
But it is a way to record bullshonta on video to dupe the masses.
Now let’s hear some more bullshonta about how “deeply” we need to stand in bullshonta to “get it”.
Nathan Jr, you had written:
"What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. "
19 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
I was talking about the original film class of PFAL.
Ohhh!
You simply did not understand why VPW made his SIT sound that way.
NO! YIKES!
I wasn't referring to his lo shontas. I was referring to the ENTIRE "class."
57 minutes ago, Mike said:
You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style?
NO! NOT SO FAST!
I had no expectations at all when I took "the class." I went in seeking NOTHING, desiring NOTHING, judging NOTHING. I went in with a free, clear and open mind and heart. Only from such a place can one discern and perceive with clarity.
NOW, why did you make it a point not to use a stop watch in the excellor classes?
The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching. Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error.
NO! STOP!
I comprehended perfectly what was going on. And I could never feel bad about that.
Oh, for me the abundant forgiveness of sins was a HUGE bonus.
Are you telling me that God's abundant forgiveness made no impression on you? But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention? What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
We were happy with an abundance of manifestations there were to learn, and an abundance of genuine tongues fluidity that is not counterfeit-able.
1." not counterfeit-able" ?!?!?! what a crock of $hit ! see my point # 4 below.
22 hours ago, Mike said:
But if you were one of the one who was satisfied with faking tongues, then again, the sucker is you holding the bag.
2. oh, so now the bull-$hit is in the other glove. See my point # 4 below
22 hours ago, Mike said:
When I had a suspicion of my tongues being not genuine I actually DID SOMETHING about it.
3.Oh yeah - here’s what Mike actually did – refer to comedy routines and studied the repetitiveness of someone speaking in tongues – whoo-hoo Mike’s the linguistics expert – I replied to his absurd claims here > > > my post Tuesday 4/25/2023 11:51 PM
22 hours ago, Mike said:
How a person could fake it for years indicates a deep sense of dishonesty that doesn't go away with leaving TWI and bashing PFAL.
4.The most dubious phrase of Mike’s absurd argument is “satisfied with faking tongues” . This exemplifies Mike’s lack of cognitive skills in that he cannot distinguish between fact and fiction.
I’m being nice in the way I worded that if I would have said will notdistinguish between fact and fiction, we’d get into willful intent= someone’s intention to knowingly and deliberately act or refrain from acting in a particular manner or to achieve a particular result.
If he knows the difference between fact and fiction and with willful intentdeliberately actsto obscure the difference – he’s acting more like a troll than someone who is delusional.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike is being misleading to say if one were satisfiedwith faking in tongues. Satisfied means convinced. People that buy into scams are convinced they are legitimate. It does not necessarily mean the one being conned is really stupid – it could mean the con is a really deceitful trick.
I got intothis ridiculous argument with him when after leaving TWI and looking into this – I came to the conclusion that what I did was not genuine speaking in tongues.
My first time through the class, I did not suspect wierwille was teaching anything deceitful.
NOW, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY > > > It’s possible wierwille thought he spoke in tongues and was passing on how to do it. That doesn’t mean he had genuine speaking in tongues or could teach others how to do something that is ONLY allocated and energized by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit.
In 1974 during session 12, I followed wierwille’s instructions exactly! And you know what? It sounded like another language. But I’ve come to believe what I did was not a real language. Speaking in tongues was in my top 20-some-odd items to investigate after I left TWI in 1986.
My starting point of examination was in the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
The full version of reevaluating wierwille’s instructions are inmy post Nov 9th 2022 11:21 PM of Why PFAL sucksand here– but for brevity’s sake I’ve condensed my notes - but you'll probably still fall asleep zzzzZZZZzzzzzZzZz
wierwille’s description of the process of speaking in tongues is typical of his affinity to explain the inexplicable.
Although he's just describing some of the mechanics of speech - a student's imagination can assume God is supplying the words. All he is describing is very fine motor skills that any adult who speaks a language is very familiar with.
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.
Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the body parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.
One must still engage the brain to think of how to control the lips, tongue, how much to open or close the vocal folds, etc. .
Now try this yourself - pronounce the word teeth.
pronounce the word cat.
pronounce the word baseball.
Did it take any great mental effort to do that? I'm assuming you are familiar with the words teeth, cat and baseball and have actually spoken those words outload in some conversation. If English is your native tongue and you're an adult, the speed with which you saw those words, understood what they meant, deciding to comply with my request and then forming and controlling the various body parts to say those words was super zip-zap-lickity-split-quick ! Did you experience any noticeable "buffering"?
Did you see one of these floating across your eyeballs?
Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues?
If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle– God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?
How does genuine speaking in tongues work? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the Holy Spirit.
See below*mechanics of speech
~ ~ ~ ~
How to speak gibberish.
As I got further and further into analyzing what wierwille taught and compared it to readily accessible information on the mechanics of speech – it dawned on me that I first did in 1974 was sleep back into an old talent I had for imitating an Asian or Russian language for entertaining my high school friends. It’s merely speaking gibberish.
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.
Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.
Adults have fun playing games like literary charades – sort of a reverse of speaking gibberish - - one player making exaggerated silly moves and the others have to guess the word. A good example of this is inYoung Frankenstein: give him a sedagive scene .
Sometimes we misspeak. I’ve accidentally made up a word. We recently re-watched Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002) - IMDbBeyoncé’s character is indirectlytelling Austin Powers who she isIt's me Foxy Cleopatra – after the movie we were quoting lines from it and I said It’s me Foxy Clara Petra. Surprised us all with a good laugh – it was not intentional.
If we had a bunch of time to waste for no good reason- We could print a redacted form of wierwille’s description of the mechanics of speech on page 117, to read like generic instructions – something like:
Relax and act natural. Move your lips, move your throat, move your tongue, move your mouth but do not think of the wordsyou are saying. Then randomly pick 100 strangers and ask them to follow these instructions. Once they got over the odd situation and silly request and agreed to follow the instructions - how many would start speaking gibberish? How many would go through all the motions but not produce a sound? And finally, HOW do you know– or rather HOW could you verifythey are not thinking of the words to say?
wierwille was not qualified to be a linguistic expert. And neither is Mike. Has anyone ever recorded these tongues or better yet have the person speaking in tongues perform before a panel of language experts.
What’s recorded in Acts that authenticated the speaking in tongues was genuine was that certain witnesses in the audience understood that language.
~ ~ ~ ~
wierwille’s instructions reveal his fixation to specify and detail otherworldly stuff that he obviously knew nothing about.
Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle– God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?
~ ~ ~ ~
It’s conceivable that some faked it and knew that they were faking it because the pressure was always on from local PFAL grads (and of course TWI- upper-leadership) to speak in tongues… in the minds of TWI-leadership that waswierwille’s approved litmus test =the decisive indicator students had absorbed the material and were compliant with instructions. It doesn’t prove a thing other than the harmful and controlling power of a cult-leader impersonating an apostle.
Don’t get me wrong – by and large I believe the manifestations and other gifts of the Holy Spiritare available – and it’s the Holy Spirit that does the issuing ( seebelow* *The Holy Spiritassigns the gifts / manifestations)nottheimaginary-rinky-dink-car-battery-holy-spirit concept wierwille taught in the class distributed by TWI…wierwille himself knew how to fake tongues – something Grease Spotters can read in the excerpts from the authorized book on The Way International - - seemy post Nov 22nd 2022 6:06 PM on Why PFAL sucksandmy post Nov 22nd 2022 9:17 PM .
**The Holy Spiritassigns the gifts / manifestations
I encourage any PFAL grad who is concerned with the veracity of my statement that the person of the Holy Spiritdoes the dispensing should look into it for themselves – and ignore wierwille’s erroneous teaching …one convenient site is Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languagesfor quick access to alternate versions, lexicons, commentaries, interlinear text. It’s really easy to navigate by clicking on a tab. Below I’ve listed 3 hyperlinks to the primary chapters wierwille expounds in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. Read the following chapters for yourself, in any translation – the ones I have below are The New International Version:
In other words it is SUPPOSED to be a mechanical and flesh bound triviality when it comes to the part WE have to do in SIT. VPW demonstrated this when he did SIT in the film.
3 hours ago, Mike said:
I figured this out in the 70s and it helped a lot of people over the hump in several Intermediate Classes.
sure you did
3 hours ago, Mike said:
You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style?
The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching. Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error.
what a condescending bull-$hit artist !
3 hours ago, Mike said:
God does the hard part in supplying what is said. We do simple, trivial, mechanical, fleshh actions, and God designed the human body with this S.I.T. stuff in mind, and He wanted to make it as easy as possible, so "no one gets missed."
But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention? What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
So the why weren't we allowed to "pay" for the class in the "abundance" as defined in the bible?
And Saint Vic's idea of abundance wasn't car oads of money, as proven by his constant begging for money? ABS, love offerings, classes, etc.
If weather was the point then why were we lead to the pressed down, shaken together, running over verse when ABS was requested?
Or the windows of heaven verse in Malachi?
Watch the rocks, Mike, that cathedral you're hiding in is made of glass.
If you want to start talking about suckers, who paid a second time for a class they were promised they would only have to pay for once, then they could take it as many times as they want? Hint: Look in a mirror.
But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention? What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
I’ll repeat myself: that’s not what caught my attention.
In fact, I braced myself for the prosperity gospel that would surely come. I had family in Amway — PFAL was not my first rodeo with bullshonta slinging clowns.
Nothing about “the class” or poor little victor attracted me. I only took it as a Hail Mary pass attempt to save my marriage. PFAL was soooo important to my ex wife and her entire extended family who sat at the dead feet of victor.
I sat through “the class” with an open heart and mind desiring nothing and only hoping for peace, harmony and unity.
What I got instead was total destruction.
Adding insult to injury, no one ever, EVER, thanked me for enduring those 36 hours.
The only one to ever seek and acquire abundant carloads of money from PFAL was victor paul wierwille.
But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention? What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
So, you're admitting Saint Vic lied when he told us PLAF would bring us prosperity.
Even worst, you're laughing at the people who believed the lie.
Now, how do you expect us to believe anything else Saint Vic or PLAF claims as that would make us suckers all over again.
My starting point of examination was in the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpts
...
wierwille’s description of the process of speaking in tongues is typical of his affinity to explain the inexplicable.
Although he's just describing some of the mechanics of speech - a student's imagination can assume God is supplying the words. All he is describing is very fine motor skills that any adult who speaks a language is very familiar with.
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions....
...One must still engage the brain to think of how to control the lips, tongue, how much to open or close the vocal folds, etc. .
...Now try this yourself - pronounce the word teeth.
pronounce the word cat.
pronounce the word baseball.
Did it take any great mental effort to do that? I'm assuming you are familiar with the words teeth, cat and baseball and have actually spoken those words outload in some conversation. If English is your native tongue and you're an adult, the speed with which you saw those words, understood what they meant, deciding to comply with my request and then forming and controlling the various body parts to say those words was super zip-zap-lickity-split-quick ! Did you experience any noticeable "buffering"?
Did you see one of these floating across your eyeballs?
...How does genuine speaking in tongues work? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the Holy Spirit.
...
How to speak gibberish.
As I got further and further into analyzing what wierwille taught and compared it to readily accessible information on the mechanics of speech – it dawned on me that I first did in 1974 was sleep back into an old talent I had for imitating an Asian or Russian language for entertaining my high school friends. It’s merely speaking gibberish.
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.
Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.
Adults have fun playing games like literary charades – sort of a reverse of speaking gibberish - - one player making exaggerated silly moves and the others have to guess the word. A good example of this is inYoung Frankenstein: give him a sedagive scene .
Sometimes we misspeak. I’ve accidentally made up a word. We recently re-watched Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002) - IMDbBeyoncé’s character is indirectlytelling Austin Powers who she isIt's me Foxy Cleopatra – after the movie we were quoting lines from it and I said It’s me Foxy Clara Petra. Surprised us all with a good laugh – it was not intentional.
If we had a bunch of time to waste for no good reason- We could print a redacted form of wierwille’s description of the mechanics of speech on page 117, to read like generic instructions – something like:
Relax and act natural. Move your lips, move your throat, move your tongue, move your mouth but do not think of the wordsyou are saying. Then randomly pick 100 strangers and ask them to follow these instructions. Once they got over the odd situation and silly request and agreed to follow the instructions - how many would start speaking gibberish? How many would go through all the motions but not produce a sound? And finally, HOW do you know– or rather HOW could you verifythey are not thinking of the words to say?
wierwille was not qualified to be a linguistic expert. And neither is Mike. Has anyone ever recorded these tongues or better yet have the person speaking in tongues perform before a panel of language experts.
What’s recorded in Acts that authenticated the speaking in tongues was genuine was that certain witnesses in the audience understood that language.
...wierwille’s instructions reveal his fixation to specify and detail otherworldly stuff that he obviously knew nothing about.
Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle– God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?...
After I posted this – especially the part I quoted above – I kept thinking about wierwille’s model of how speaking in tongues works. My mind got stuck in a loop – like a dog chasing its tail – sure it’s fun but I wasn’t making any progress in understanding HOWit works. Then it occurred to me I was wrestling with a theoretical model dreamed up by someone who was prone to take leaps of logic over tall buildings. Look ! Up in the sky…it’s a turd…it’s so plain…it’s just wierwille.
Logic is a method of reasoning that involves a series of statements, each of which must be true if the statement before it is true.
Thinking of wierwille’s theoretical model of how speaking in tongues works - the abbreviated version being:
one employs all the body parts involved in the mechanics of speech except for thinking of what words to say.
While mulling over wierwille’s theoretical model, I remembered something – whether it was in PFAL or Intermediate class on TIP – didn’t “the teacher” say something along the lines that you don’t have to think of the words to say because God already knows in advance how you will shape your mouth, position your tongue, etc., so He provides the word that would fit that speech-body-parts configuration…maybe someone remembers what I’m referring to and could correct me and/or cite who said it and in what class.
I’m not trying to be a faith-blaster…and only somewhat familiar with New Yorkese…Grease Spot is like a second language to me. Tonto’s friend had studied some speech pathology stuff in college (she’s ex-TWIand was in corps) so I anticipate talking to her soon about the mashup of the mechanics of speech and wierwille’s theory.
I believe the references of speaking in tongues in the Bible are historically true. I wish I could go back in time and interview one of the apostles about what it felt like to speak in tongues. I’m putting my funny bone and time-travel paradoxes on ice and simply explaining the reason for my wish – another theory – my own theory:
Genuine speaking in tongues involves the Holy Spirit - in some mysterious way – engaging all the body parts used in speech as well as the brain to produce a real language inspired by God.
Well…that’s a working theory anyway…I’m thinking that for the person who is genuinely speaking in tongues there might be some unique sensations in the body parts used in speech different from when they speak in their native tongue.
Sincerity is no guarantee for truth...but that's not why you came to our used car lot, is it?
even more thoughts after the wavy gravy things
~ ~ ~ ~
*More thoughts and hyperlinks
Thought I’d bring this up here – don’t know why – cuz I know on threads where you-know-who-extrapolates-to-infinity-and-behind, everything gets lost in the Kool-Aid and Awesome Sauce…maybe some atom-smashing-lie-detector-making-bottoms-up-approaching-ABBAABBA-chanting-stop-watch-gazing type person will lick their lips, act real natural, move their hands, fingers, and dial-up modem to start a thread in doctrinal on theories of how genuine speaking in tongues works…or maybe not.
Accepted theories are the best explanations available so far for how the world works. They have been thoroughly tested, are supported by multiple lines of evidence, and have proved useful in generating explanations and opening up new areas for research. However, science is always a work in progress, and even theories change. How? We’ll look at some over-arching theories in physics as examples…
If u haven't already look up Kaneh Bosem on YouTube...
Didn’t watch the You Tube yet - but in Googling the words got some other hits - ah so I see it’s some aromatic hemp or reed that may have been used in making anointing oil in Old Testament… uhm you do realize the OT wasn’t addressed to us.
Didn’t watch the You Tube yet - but in Googling the words got some other hits - ah so I see it’s some aromatic hemp or reed that may have been used in making anointing oil in Old Testament… uhm you do realize the OT wasn’t addressed to us.
Thanks for the big belly laugh you too. Cannabis is legal to buy in Canada - in the province of Ontario where I live, any person 19 and older can buy, use, possess and grow recreational cannabis within the legal limits. Now there are stores on almost every street corner selling the stuff!
I haven't taken advantage of this opportunity but I find reading about Kaneh Bosem pretty interesting .
So, you're admitting Saint Vic lied when he told us PLAF would bring us prosperity.
Even worst, you're laughing at the people who believed the lie.
Now, how do you expect us to believe anything else Saint Vic or PLAF claims as that would make us suckers all over again.
No. Not at all. I feel sad for people who were sucked into TV's "Lives of the Rich and Famous" and then turned around and thought that John 10:10 was talking about the same kind of abundant life.
For one thing, I work for a lot of rich people,and I know they face mountains of problems I'd never dream of. They have told me of some of their woes, and the worrisome responsibilities they deal with.
Second of all, anyone hearing the Gospel of John who has no idea of the level of poverty most of Jesus' audience faced, didn't really hear the Gospel of John yet... not enough anyway.
The abundant life that Jesus taught was that people should have their needs met and some left over to help others. To think that VPW was preaching 3 car garage houses for all, and out of the mouth of Jesus, had to be pretty stupid.
I remember a SNT tape in the late 70s where VPW says he was sometimes flabbergasted that grads were thinking that the abundant life meant "carloads of money." That SNT tape is where I heard that phrase.
The abundant life is living in the black, and not in the red ink.
The abundant life includes God's abundant forgiveness and mercy.
The abundant life is being able to help others with 7 manifestations.
VPW often taught (from Timothy I think) that anyone has more than enough food, clothing, and shelter, and has their health, they ought to be constantly thanking God for such abundance. Most of the human race has suffered starvation resulting in death. We in the USA and free countries live better than most kings who ever lived had it.
I always know that when a PFAL grad complains "Hey! Where is my abundant life?" that the class was never absorbed very deep into their minds. There were a lot of people who faked knowing the class to be part of the cool people in the ministry, but when it came to really getting it... they didn't.
For those who keep complaining about being promised in PFAL a TV style of abundance, I will know there is a weak understanding of the whole class that I must minister to.
I was searching for an example of cognitive dissonance and this is what I found.
Could you please identify the two opposing thought-trains that clash and it results in dissonance?
Example:
The mirror riddle is so mind boggling because people thinking about it easily drift from one definition of "reversal" to another. It turns out that the two definitions are totally opposed to each other. One definition yields the thought that mirrors really do reverse left and right, while the other definition yields that mirrors do NOT reverse left and right.
The resulting conflict is two opposite thoughts in the mind at the same time: mirrors both do and do not reverse left and right.
This is a mild cognitive dissonance that the mirror riddle sets up.
Another, much stronger example is the battered wife who harbors the two opposing thoughts "My husband loves me" and "My husband hates me."
I'm just wondering if your spotting a cognitive dissonance was accurate or not. There are always two opposing thoughts involved in a cognitive dissonance.
Thanks for the big belly laugh you too. Cannabis is legal to buy in Canada - in the province of Ontario where I live, any person 19 and older can buy, use, possess and grow recreational cannabis within the legal limits. Now there are stores on almost every street corner selling the stuff!
I haven't taken advantage of this opportunity but I find reading about Kaneh Bosem pretty interesting .
It's a mixed bag (pun intended) in the US. Kind of a hybrid where some states do medical mj only, some do recreational and medical mj, and some states still have it outlawed. Federally, it's all illegal, but the states rights do supercede federal law at times. Personally, I'm for it's responsible use as there are many many medical benefits. I watched Rick Simpsons story as well, the maker of RSO oil. He cured his own cancer and many others as well with his oil. Anywho...back to God not having a budget and french doors or whatever...
For those who keep complaining about being promised in PFAL a TV style of abundance, I will know there is a weak understanding of the whole class that I must minister to.
But that is exactly what was promised in PFAL - book and the movie - I can still hear wierwille's envy coming through loud and clear when teaching on John 10:10 when i looked around the community and saw unbelievers with all their abundance - Mike minister to thyself - come out old foul and turd-like spirit of wierwille
VPW often taught (from Timothy I think) that anyone has more than enough food, clothing, and shelter, and has their health, they ought to be constantly thanking God for such abundance.
Is this how you live Mike? Why are you so hungry for followers that the closest you get to any following is posting non-sense like you do?
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The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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chockfull
People don’t need to focus on “the mechanics of speech” to do anything. If it is a miraculous occurrence then it will happen by not faking it.
Wierwille spoke small phrases in known languages to dupe the ministers onstage at Oral Roberts function where he met JE Stiles. Stiles professed to have led over 10,000 people individually into SIT. No idea if that number is accurate or how many of those were real as opposed to fake. No idea what mechanics he shared with VP to get him over a personal hurdle, or whether or not VP was faking all the time. But likely it was different things shared personally for each person.
Over emphasizing mechanics of speech and speaking weirdly or slowly was not a way Jesus taught ever.
But it is a way to record bullshonta on video to dupe the masses.
Now let’s hear some more bullshonta about how “deeply” we need to stand in bullshonta to “get it”.
Mike stands in bullshonta up to his eyebrows.
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Nathan_Jr
NO! YIKES!
I wasn't referring to his lo shontas. I was referring to the ENTIRE "class."
NO! NOT SO FAST!
I had no expectations at all when I took "the class." I went in seeking NOTHING, desiring NOTHING, judging NOTHING. I went in with a free, clear and open mind and heart. Only from such a place can one discern and perceive with clarity.
NOW, why did you make it a point not to use a stop watch in the excellor classes?
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Nathan_Jr
NO! STOP!
I comprehended perfectly what was going on. And I could never feel bad about that.
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T-Bone
1." not counterfeit-able" ?!?!?!
what a crock of $hit ! see my point # 4 below.
2. oh, so now the bull-$hit is in the other glove. See my point # 4 below
3. Oh yeah - here’s what Mike actually did – refer to comedy routines and studied the repetitiveness of someone speaking in tongues – whoo-hoo Mike’s the linguistics expert – I replied to his absurd claims here > > > my post Tuesday 4/25/2023 11:51 PM
4. The most dubious phrase of Mike’s absurd argument is “satisfied with faking tongues” . This exemplifies Mike’s lack of cognitive skills in that he cannot distinguish between fact and fiction.
I’m being nice in the way I worded that if I would have said will not distinguish between fact and fiction, we’d get into willful intent = someone’s intention to knowingly and deliberately act or refrain from acting in a particular manner or to achieve a particular result.
If he cannot – are we witnessing symptoms of a delusional disorder .
If he knows the difference between fact and fiction and with willful intent deliberately acts to obscure the difference – he’s acting more like a troll than someone who is delusional.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike is being misleading to say if one were satisfied with faking in tongues. Satisfied means convinced. People that buy into scams are convinced they are legitimate. It does not necessarily mean the one being conned is really stupid – it could mean the con is a really deceitful trick.
I got into this ridiculous argument with him when after leaving TWI and looking into this – I came to the conclusion that what I did was not genuine speaking in tongues.
My first time through the class, I did not suspect wierwille was teaching anything deceitful.
NOW, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY > > > It’s possible wierwille thought he spoke in tongues and was passing on how to do it. That doesn’t mean he had genuine speaking in tongues or could teach others how to do something that is ONLY allocated and energized by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit.
In 1974 during session 12, I followed wierwille’s instructions exactly! And you know what? It sounded like another language. But I’ve come to believe what I did was not a real language. Speaking in tongues was in my top 20-some-odd items to investigate after I left TWI in 1986.
My starting point of examination was in the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
The full version of reevaluating wierwille’s instructions are in my post Nov 9th 2022 11:21 PM of Why PFAL sucks and here – but for brevity’s sake
I’ve condensed my notes - but you'll probably still fall asleep zzzzZZZZzzz
zzZzZz
wierwille’s description of the process of speaking in tongues is typical of his affinity to explain the inexplicable.
Although he's just describing some of the mechanics of speech - a student's imagination can assume God is supplying the words. All he is describing is very fine motor skills that any adult who speaks a language is very familiar with.
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.
Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the body parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.
One must still engage the brain to think of how to control the lips, tongue, how much to open or close the vocal folds, etc. .
Now try this yourself - pronounce the word teeth.
pronounce the word cat.
pronounce the word baseball.
Did it take any great mental effort to do that? I'm assuming you are familiar with the words teeth, cat and baseball and have actually spoken those words outload in some conversation. If English is your native tongue and you're an adult, the speed with which you saw those words, understood what they meant, deciding to comply with my request and then forming and controlling the various body parts to say those words was super zip-zap-lickity-split-quick ! Did you experience any noticeable "buffering"?
Did you see one of these floating across your eyeballs?
Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues?
If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?
How does genuine speaking in tongues work? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the Holy Spirit.
See below * mechanics of speech
~ ~ ~ ~
How to speak gibberish.
As I got further and further into analyzing what wierwille taught and compared it to readily accessible information on the mechanics of speech – it dawned on me that I first did in 1974 was sleep back into an old talent I had for imitating an Asian or Russian language for entertaining my high school friends. It’s merely speaking gibberish.
How to speak Gibberish - secret language
Gibberish 101: how to speak in Gibberish from Laguna Laughter Club
The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions.
Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making.
Adults have fun playing games like literary charades – sort of a reverse of speaking gibberish - - one player making exaggerated silly moves and the others have to guess the word. A good example of this is in Young Frankenstein: give him a sedagive scene .
Sometimes we misspeak. I’ve accidentally made up a word. We recently re-watched Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002) - IMDb Beyoncé’s character is indirectly telling Austin Powers who she is It's me Foxy Cleopatra – after the movie we were quoting lines from it and I said It’s me Foxy Clara Petra. Surprised us all with a good laugh – it was not intentional.
If we had a bunch of time to waste for no good reason - We could print a redacted form of wierwille’s description of the mechanics of speech on page 117, to read like generic instructions – something like:
Relax and act natural. Move your lips, move your throat, move your tongue, move your mouth but do not think of the words you are saying. Then randomly pick 100 strangers and ask them to follow these instructions. Once they got over the odd situation and silly request and agreed to follow the instructions - how many would start speaking gibberish? How many would go through all the motions but not produce a sound? And finally, HOW do you know – or rather HOW could you verify they are not thinking of the words to say?
wierwille was not qualified to be a linguistic expert. And neither is Mike. Has anyone ever recorded these tongues or better yet have the person speaking in tongues perform before a panel of language experts.
What’s recorded in Acts that authenticated the speaking in tongues was genuine was that certain witnesses in the audience understood that language.
~ ~ ~ ~
wierwille’s instructions reveal his fixation to specify and detail otherworldly stuff that he obviously knew nothing about.
Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible?
~ ~ ~ ~
It’s conceivable that some faked it and knew that they were faking it because the pressure was always on from local PFAL grads (and of course TWI- upper-leadership) to speak in tongues… in the minds of TWI-leadership that was wierwille’s approved litmus test = the decisive indicator students had absorbed the material and were compliant with instructions. It doesn’t prove a thing other than the harmful and controlling power of a cult-leader impersonating an apostle.
Don’t get me wrong – by and large I believe the manifestations and other gifts of the Holy Spirit are available – and it’s the Holy Spirit that does the issuing ( see below * * The Holy Spirit assigns the gifts / manifestations ) not the imaginary-rinky-dink-car-battery-holy-spirit concept wierwille taught in the class distributed by TWI…wierwille himself knew how to fake tongues – something Grease Spotters can read in the excerpts from the authorized book on The Way International - - see my post Nov 22nd 2022 6:06 PM on Why PFAL sucks and my post Nov 22nd 2022 9:17 PM .
~ ~ ~ ~
*Mechanics of speech:
https://www.speechbuddy.com/blog/language-development/a-quick-primer-on-the-mechanics-of-speech/
https://prezi.com/p/ketszfrzz2ox/mechanic-and-process-of-speaking/
http://www.literary-articles.com/2012/03/mechanism-of-speech-process-and.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill
Organs of Speech – Literature and Humanities
~ ~ ~ ~
**The Holy Spirit assigns the gifts / manifestations
I encourage any PFAL grad who is concerned with the veracity of my statement that the person of the Holy Spirit does the dispensing should look into it for themselves – and ignore wierwille’s erroneous teaching …one convenient site is Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages for quick access to alternate versions, lexicons, commentaries, interlinear text. It’s really easy to navigate by clicking on a tab. Below I’ve listed 3 hyperlinks to the primary chapters wierwille expounds in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. Read the following chapters for yourself, in any translation – the ones I have below are The New International Version:
1 Corinthians 12 NIV (biblehub.com)
1 Corinthians 13 NIV (biblehub.com)
1 Corinthians 14 NIV (biblehub.com)
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T-Bone
sure you did
what a condescending bull-$hit artist !
and you know that how?
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Nathan_Jr
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T-Bone
Excellor Session After-Meeting:
Look, Rosco, you’ve been very repetitive.
My stop-watch shows - on average - your interpretations run 4 seconds, while your tongue is 75 seconds.
Do you see the problem?
Now maybe you think you’re rocking’ that tie, but your pi$$ a$$ poor attitude at Excellor Sessions really sucks.
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So_crates
So the why weren't we allowed to "pay" for the class in the "abundance" as defined in the bible?
And Saint Vic's idea of abundance wasn't car oads of money, as proven by his constant begging for money? ABS, love offerings, classes, etc.
If weather was the point then why were we lead to the pressed down, shaken together, running over verse when ABS was requested?
Or the windows of heaven verse in Malachi?
Watch the rocks, Mike, that cathedral you're hiding in is made of glass.
If you want to start talking about suckers, who paid a second time for a class they were promised they would only have to pay for once, then they could take it as many times as they want? Hint: Look in a mirror.
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Nathan_Jr
I’ll repeat myself: that’s not what caught my attention.
In fact, I braced myself for the prosperity gospel that would surely come. I had family in Amway — PFAL was not my first rodeo with bullshonta slinging clowns.
Nothing about “the class” or poor little victor attracted me. I only took it as a Hail Mary pass attempt to save my marriage. PFAL was soooo important to my ex wife and her entire extended family who sat at the dead feet of victor.
I sat through “the class” with an open heart and mind desiring nothing and only hoping for peace, harmony and unity.
What I got instead was total destruction.
Adding insult to injury, no one ever, EVER, thanked me for enduring those 36 hours.
The only one to ever seek and acquire abundant carloads of money from PFAL was victor paul wierwille.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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So_crates
So, you're admitting Saint Vic lied when he told us PLAF would bring us prosperity.
Even worst, you're laughing at the people who believed the lie.
Now, how do you expect us to believe anything else Saint Vic or PLAF claims as that would make us suckers all over again.
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T-Bone
After I posted this – especially the part I quoted above – I kept thinking about wierwille’s model of how speaking in tongues works. My mind got stuck in a loop – like a dog chasing its tail – sure it’s fun but I wasn’t making any progress in understanding HOW it works. Then it occurred to me I was wrestling with a theoretical model dreamed up by someone who was prone to take leaps of logic over tall buildings. Look ! Up in the sky…it’s a turd…it’s so plain…it’s just wierwille.
Logic is a method of reasoning that involves a series of statements, each of which must be true if the statement before it is true.
Thinking of wierwille’s theoretical model of how speaking in tongues works - the abbreviated version being:
one employs all the body parts involved in the mechanics of speech except for thinking of what words to say.
While mulling over wierwille’s theoretical model, I remembered something – whether it was in PFAL or Intermediate class on TIP – didn’t “the teacher” say something along the lines that you don’t have to think of the words to say because God already knows in advance how you will shape your mouth, position your tongue, etc., so He provides the word that would fit that speech-body-parts configuration…maybe someone remembers what I’m referring to and could correct me and/or cite who said it and in what class.
I’m not trying to be a faith-blaster…and only somewhat familiar with New Yorkese…Grease Spot is like a second language to me. Tonto’s friend had studied some speech pathology stuff in college (she’s ex-TWI and was in corps) so I anticipate talking to her soon about the mashup of the mechanics of speech and wierwille’s theory.
I believe the references of speaking in tongues in the Bible are historically true. I wish I could go back in time and interview one of the apostles about what it felt like to speak in tongues. I’m putting my funny bone and time-travel paradoxes on ice and simply explaining the reason for my wish – another theory – my own theory:
Genuine speaking in tongues involves the Holy Spirit - in some mysterious way – engaging all the body parts used in speech as well as the brain to produce a real language inspired by God.
Well…that’s a working theory anyway…I’m thinking that for the person who is genuinely speaking in tongues there might be some unique sensations in the body parts used in speech different from when they speak in their native tongue.
*More thoughts and hyperlinks below
Have a nice day
LoShonta to all and to all LoShonta
I am my own grandpa
whether in my mind or out of my mind I know not
If not me who? If not now when?
what do you think his back looked like?
I had great enthusiasm for this sports
wouldn't you like to go to church with me?
PFAL is as PFAL ain't
Is muss be my lucky day
Mister and Mississippi walk into a bar
Sincerity is no guarantee for truth...but that's not why you came to our used car lot, is it?
even more thoughts after the wavy gravy things
~ ~ ~ ~
*More thoughts and hyperlinks
Thought I’d bring this up here – don’t know why – cuz I know on threads where you-know-who-extrapolates-to-infinity-and-behind, everything gets lost in the Kool-Aid and Awesome Sauce…maybe some atom-smashing-lie-detector-making-bottoms-up-approaching-ABBAABBA-chanting-stop-watch-gazing type person will lick their lips, act real natural, move their hands, fingers, and dial-up modem to start a thread in doctrinal on theories of how genuine speaking in tongues works…or maybe not.
List of fallacies - Wikipedia
Jumping to Conclusions: When People Decide Based on Insufficient Information – Effectiviology
Accepted theories are the best explanations available so far for how the world works. They have been thoroughly tested, are supported by multiple lines of evidence, and have proved useful in generating explanations and opening up new areas for research. However, science is always a work in progress, and even theories change. How? We’ll look at some over-arching theories in physics as examples…
From: Even theories change - Understanding Science (berkeley.edu)
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cman
Honestly, I think Mike needs to smoke some weed. See a doctor or something.
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T-Bone
I think I need some...waiting on it to be legal in Texas
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OldSkool
If u haven't already look up Kaneh Bosem on YouTube...
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T-Bone
Didn’t watch the You Tube yet - but in Googling the words got some other hits - ah so I see it’s some aromatic hemp or reed that may have been used in making anointing oil in Old Testament… uhm you do realize the OT wasn’t addressed to us.
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OldSkool
But it's for our LEARNING...
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Nathan_Jr
"It doesn't [matter what you do], unless you believe it will."
-- victor paul wierwille
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Charity
Thanks for the big belly laugh you too. Cannabis is legal to buy in Canada - in the province of Ontario where I live, any person 19 and older can buy, use, possess and grow recreational cannabis within the legal limits. Now there are stores on almost every street corner selling the stuff!
I haven't taken advantage of this opportunity but I find reading about Kaneh Bosem pretty interesting
.
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Mike
No. Not at all. I feel sad for people who were sucked into TV's "Lives of the Rich and Famous" and then turned around and thought that John 10:10 was talking about the same kind of abundant life.
For one thing, I work for a lot of rich people,and I know they face mountains of problems I'd never dream of. They have told me of some of their woes, and the worrisome responsibilities they deal with.
Second of all, anyone hearing the Gospel of John who has no idea of the level of poverty most of Jesus' audience faced, didn't really hear the Gospel of John yet... not enough anyway.
The abundant life that Jesus taught was that people should have their needs met and some left over to help others. To think that VPW was preaching 3 car garage houses for all, and out of the mouth of Jesus, had to be pretty stupid.
I remember a SNT tape in the late 70s where VPW says he was sometimes flabbergasted that grads were thinking that the abundant life meant "carloads of money." That SNT tape is where I heard that phrase.
The abundant life is living in the black, and not in the red ink.
The abundant life includes God's abundant forgiveness and mercy.
The abundant life is being able to help others with 7 manifestations.
VPW often taught (from Timothy I think) that anyone has more than enough food, clothing, and shelter, and has their health, they ought to be constantly thanking God for such abundance. Most of the human race has suffered starvation resulting in death. We in the USA and free countries live better than most kings who ever lived had it.
I always know that when a PFAL grad complains "Hey! Where is my abundant life?" that the class was never absorbed very deep into their minds. There were a lot of people who faked knowing the class to be part of the cool people in the ministry, but when it came to really getting it... they didn't.
For those who keep complaining about being promised in PFAL a TV style of abundance, I will know there is a weak understanding of the whole class that I must minister to.
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Mike
Could you please identify the two opposing thought-trains that clash and it results in dissonance?
Example:
The mirror riddle is so mind boggling because people thinking about it easily drift from one definition of "reversal" to another. It turns out that the two definitions are totally opposed to each other. One definition yields the thought that mirrors really do reverse left and right, while the other definition yields that mirrors do NOT reverse left and right.
The resulting conflict is two opposite thoughts in the mind at the same time: mirrors both do and do not reverse left and right.
This is a mild cognitive dissonance that the mirror riddle sets up.
Another, much stronger example is the battered wife who harbors the two opposing thoughts "My husband loves me" and "My husband hates me."
I'm just wondering if your spotting a cognitive dissonance was accurate or not. There are always two opposing thoughts involved in a cognitive dissonance.
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OldSkool
Mike, please, the topic turned pleasant. Kaneh Bosem.
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OldSkool
It's a mixed bag (pun intended) in the US. Kind of a hybrid where some states do medical mj only, some do recreational and medical mj, and some states still have it outlawed. Federally, it's all illegal, but the states rights do supercede federal law at times. Personally, I'm for it's responsible use as there are many many medical benefits. I watched Rick Simpsons story as well, the maker of RSO oil. He cured his own cancer and many others as well with his oil. Anywho...back to God not having a budget and french doors or whatever...
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T-Bone
But that is exactly what was promised in PFAL - book and the movie
- I can still hear wierwille's envy coming through loud and clear when teaching on John 10:10 when i looked around the community and saw unbelievers with all their abundance - Mike minister to thyself - come out old foul and turd-like spirit of wierwille 
Edited by T-Boneenvious editor
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cman
Is this how you live Mike? Why are you so hungry for followers that the closest you get to any following is posting non-sense like you do?
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