... the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention? What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
Did you miss session 1?
12 minutes ago, Mike said:
When I had a suspicion of my tongues being not genuine I actually DID SOMETHING about it.
Are you telling me that God's abundant forgiveness made no impression on you?
I never beleeeved I lacked abundant forgiveness from God. This was not something new to impress me. I was never taught I was unworthy until I took "the class." I never beleeeved I was nor could be condemned of anything until I took "the class." I never thought of God as a bit-chass pony character that needed or wanted anything from me, especially my money, until I took the class.
What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. What REALLY impressed me was that anyone at all was actually impressed with victor paul wierwille. I was REALLY impressed with how gullible people were to actually fawn over this little charlatan and say "mmmph" at the end of every segment.
31 minutes ago, Mike said:
But the idea of abundant "carloads of money" was what caught your attention?
NO! NOT SO FAST! STOP!
I never got that idea. I was never seduced by that idea. But that idea was, indeed, taught, and that it was taught at all DID catch my attention. I was never motivated by that idea. I never wanted for money and never beleeeved that God was to be sought for it.
The sycophants administering PFAL to me were duped in 1975, went CORPS and WOW, got out in 1986, completely mastered the collaterals, SNTs, and all books and tapes by victor, yet were living very near the poverty line... in Louisiana!!
39 minutes ago, Mike said:
What a sucker you are, if you thought you'd get rich American style with PFAL.
I never thought that. I never bought ANY of the bull$hit. (Hello, Irony. I seeeeee yooouuu.)
41 minutes ago, Mike said:
But if you were one of the one who was satisfied with faking tongues, then again, the sucker is you holding the bag.
I was never satisfied with faking tongues. Who told you that? I'll repeat myself for you and for the folks at home. I am trilingual in glossolalia and I can interpret my native tongue into glossolalia and vice versa. I can STF out of SIT. I can even write in glossolalia. I wish you all could SIT as much as I can.
I know (twice revealed = established) that teaching someone how (H-O-W) to interpret by matching syllables and duration is factually, objectively and demonstrably false. If anyone ever taught that, say, in an excellor class, they taught it wrong.
SIT and TIP cannot be taught. That's how you can tell a phony. Any form of SIT and TIP that is taught it counterfeit.
48 minutes ago, Mike said:
When I had a suspicion of my tongues being not genuine I actually DID SOMETHING about it.
Really? What did you do?
54 minutes ago, Mike said:
How a person could fake it for years indicates a deep sense of dishonesty
NO! STOP! YIKES!
It indicates someone has been deeply manipulated to be dishonest in an effort to appease a counterfeit fraudster.
No lies. Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped. By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
No lies.
No, this is mostly lies and bull$hit from you, chockful.
Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped.
No, VPW augmented the Jesus Movement.
It was missing lots of things and that is why Heefner and Doop went to HQ to learn much more than the mostly emotional Jesus Movement could provide.I could see that the Jesus Freaks of that time were on an emotion trip mostly, and that is why the media loved them. That was why I stayed away from them.
This idea that VPW used the Jesus Movement is a lie that is being repeated often here for all to blindly absorb.
You are trying to brainwash as you have been brainwashed.First the Corps cult got your gord, and now the “Let’s Hate VPW” cult going on here has got your gord.Just like TWI had a mixture of truth and TVTs and of God’s family with cult, GreaseSpot has some good conversation mixed with bull$hit and lies.
By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
No, this is a lie.If Heefner was the necessary ingredient to what happened at Rye and Long Island, then why did things not wind down fast after they were booted?We did not even notice any change when they left, because we were too busy eating up the class.
You got it all wrong!
There was a winding down of things, but not in TWI-1 work.It was Heefner and Doop that wound down to nothing after they were booted.
Heener did not act like much of a man of God, and accepted the firing, and I never heard word one of him doing any ministry work after he lost his glory position in NY.
On the other hand, Doop tried to get a ministry started in Calif called the “Tripped Out Ministry” which went exactly nowhere, and a few years later Doop returned to serve in TWI, where he ran orgies in Maine according to at least two Maine witnesses.
Another part of the lies about the early ministry that proliferate here is this idea that Heefner got something going in NY.What I saw happening was there were lots of people suddenly running the class with zero experience, so VPW asked Heefner to leave CA and go to NY to help coordinate the work that was already going on.
My twig was run for a short time by a 17 year old from Heefner’s branch in CA.He too and a couple of others came out with Heefner to help run things.That 17 year old filled in for the regular twig leader in my area who went to HQ to take the Advanced Class.There was an extreme shortage of leaders and lots of students and THAT is why Heefner had a lot of work to do. He did NOT start it; he helped with the work that sprung up.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
No, my approach for the first couple of years was extreme caution, and going VERY SLOW on many new doctrines I was learning.My approach was very much the opposite of Penwork’s testimony of how she was all enthralled AT THE START with goo goo eyes for VPW, and an instant desire to join the Corps, even before she took the class.
If you wanted to go Corps sooner than 2 years after taking the class, I would peg you as the impulsive emotional decision kind of person, like Penworks.I had to be SURE for 11 years before I even went out WOW.Seeing how big a failure the Corps was, I’d say you got what you earned.I also feel sad how you not only “snapped” to get into the Corps cult adoring VPW, but also, at the next snap, into the VPW hate club.I can’t trust snappers.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
No, that division happened only for those snapped into the “we are the best, we are the Way Corps” cult.
But when we more balanced grads approach people in other churches, there is a small amount we can learn from how they do things, and a HUGE amount of right doctrines we can help the hungry with in those churches.
We were given the best doctrines so we can help others with them, and that includes helping others stuck in the traditional errors of regular churches.
This situation has lightened up some in the 50 years that have passed since Rye, in that many PFAL grads drifted out of TWI and into the regular churches.Lots of churches now get into SIT where only a few did in the Rye days. Lots of churches now get eternal life and rewards separate and not confused.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
No, that only applies to the elitist snobs that infiltrated and ruined the Corps.I sense from your contributions here that you were not a good leader in the Corps.You are not excited about the good stuff we learned, and you forget the good you got from VPW.
We were given the ability to spot the good stuff going on in other churches as well as the bad. Those with a heart to help found ways to communicate with other Christians.After 1986I sense that there was none of this left in the Corps.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No, you are not qualified to say what is error or not, and if you had your way ALL that VPW taught would be error in your imagined church.If you deified VPW like Penworks says she did, then I understand your consternation.I guess you thought he was being humble at the end of Rock’72 movie, saying he was not a goodie goodie but a downer and outer?I guess you blew off his grave headstone as well.I never deified VPW, but I did see people like you doing it, and I felt they were headed for trouble.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
Yes, we can finally agree that things went pretty bad at TWI, especially after 1986.How someone could get into the Word, and take the class after 1986, and trust TWI-2 or TWI-3 is a mystery to me. God can work, even in the midst of hell on earth.
SIT and TIP cannot be taught. That's how you can tell a phony. Any form of SIT and TIP that is taught it counterfeit.
What can be taught is how to overcome fears about SIT, and also what our part in the matter is, as opposed to God's part in the matter.
It is fear and confusion that limit people in SIT. Teaching can handle fear and teaching can handle confusion. The rest is God's part, and nobody gets missed!
Why did you think that VPW taught us how to SIT? He didn't. He taught us how to manage our thoughts about it that hinder us in it.
Your understanding of what we were taught in SIT is paltry.
I know (twice revealed = established) that teaching someone how (H-O-W) to interpret by matching syllables and duration is factually, objectively and demonstrably false. If anyone ever taught that, say, in an excellor class, they taught it wrong.
It was Earl Burton who taught that the length of tongues should not be extremely short while the interpretation is extremely long. I never got a sense of matching the number of seconds with a stop watch. You don't need to be a language expert to know the lengths could vary some.
When I ran excellors sessions I made it a point that we would not be using a stopwatch.
What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all.
If I remember correctly you got into TWI after 1986. If it is aimed at post-1986 TWI, then I would agree with your assessment above of HQ, the Corps, and lots of local areas (but not all).
What can be taught is how to overcome fears about SIT, and also what our part in the matter is, as opposed to God's part in the matter.
It is fear and confusion that limit people in SIT. Teaching can handle fear and teaching can handle confusion. The rest is God's part, and nobody gets missed!
Why did you think that VPW taught us how to SIT? He didn't. He taught us how to manage our thoughts about it that hinder us in it.
Your understanding of what we were taught in SIT is paltry.
Yikes!
Then why the Intermediate Class? Why excellor? What is this phony business about matching syllables and duration when interpreting? Lots of teaching on H-O-W.
Not everyone can or should speak in tongues It proves nothing but itself. It is evident of nothing but itself. Victor totally missed the mark on what and why Paul and the author of Luke wrote on the subject. Hey! Even vic has to crawl before he can walk.
What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all.
30 minutes ago, Mike said:
If I remember correctly you got into TWI after 1986. If it is aimed at post-1986 TWI, then I would agree with your assessment above of HQ, the Corps, and lots of local areas (but not all).
I was talking about the original film class of PFAL.
I never got into TWI.
TWI and the money-making corporate machine invented and established by victor paul wierwille is another matter but with similar attributes.
No, this is mostly lies and bull$hit from you, chockful.
Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped.
No, VPW augmented the Jesus Movement.
It was missing lots of things and that is why Heefner and Doop went to HQ to learn much more than the mostly emotional Jesus Movement could provide.I could see that the Jesus Freaks of that time were on an emotion trip mostly, and that is why the media loved them. That was why I stayed away from them.
This idea that VPW used the Jesus Movement is a lie that is being repeated often here for all to blindly absorb.
You are trying to brainwash as you have been brainwashed.First the Corps cult got your gord, and now the “Let’s Hate VPW” cult going on here has got your gord.Just like TWI had a mixture of truth and TVTs and of God’s family with cult, GreaseSpot has some good conversation mixed with bull$hit and lies.
By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
No, this is a lie.If Heefner was the necessary ingredient to what happened at Rye and Long Island, then why did things not wind down fast after they were booted?We did not even notice any change when they left, because we were too busy eating up the class.
You got it all wrong!
There was a winding down of things, but not in TWI-1 work.It was Heefner and Doop that wound down to nothing after they were booted.
Heener did not act like much of a man of God, and accepted the firing, and I never heard word one of him doing any ministry work after he lost his glory position in NY.
On the other hand, Doop tried to get a ministry started in Calif called the “Tripped Out Ministry” which went exactly nowhere, and a few years later Doop returned to serve in TWI, where he ran orgies in Maine according to at least two Maine witnesses.
Another part of the lies about the early ministry that proliferate here is this idea that Heefner got something going in NY.What I saw happening was there were lots of people suddenly running the class with zero experience, so VPW asked Heefner to leave CA and go to NY to help coordinate the work that was already going on.
My twig was run for a short time by a 17 year old from Heefner’s branch in CA.He too and a couple of others came out with Heefner to help run things.That 17 year old filled in for the regular twig leader in my area who went to HQ to take the Advanced Class.There was an extreme shortage of leaders and lots of students and THAT is why Heefner had a lot of work to do. He did NOT start it; he helped with the work that sprung up.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
No, my approach for the first couple of years was extreme caution, and going VERY SLOW on many new doctrines I was learning.My approach was very much the opposite of Penwork’s testimony of how she was all enthralled AT THE START with goo goo eyes for VPW, and an instant desire to join the Corps, even before she took the class.
If you wanted to go Corps sooner than 2 years after taking the class, I would peg you as the impulsive emotional decision kind of person, like Penworks.I had to be SURE for 11 years before I even went out WOW.Seeing how big a failure the Corps was, I’d say you got what you earned.I also feel sad how you not only “snapped” to get into the Corps cult adoring VPW, but also, at the next snap, into the VPW hate club.I can’t trust snappers.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
No, that division happened only for those snapped into the “we are the best, we are the Way Corps” cult.
But when we more balanced grads approach people in other churches, there is a small amount we can learn from how they do things, and a HUGE amount of right doctrines we can help the hungry with in those churches.
We were given the best doctrines so we can help others with them, and that includes helping others stuck in the traditional errors of regular churches.
This situation has lightened up some in the 50 years that have passed since Rye, in that many PFAL grads drifted out of TWI and into the regular churches.Lots of churches now get into SIT where only a few did in the Rye days. Lots of churches now get eternal life and rewards separate and not confused.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
No, that only applies to the elitist snobs that infiltrated and ruined the Corps.I sense from your contributions here that you were not a good leader in the Corps.You are not excited about the good stuff we learned, and you forget the good you got from VPW.
We were given the ability to spot the good stuff going on in other churches as well as the bad. Those with a heart to help found ways to communicate with other Christians.After 1986I sense that there was none of this left in the Corps.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No, you are not qualified to say what is error or not, and if you had your way ALL that VPW taught would be error in your imagined church.If you deified VPW like Penworks says she did, then I understand your consternation.I guess you thought he was being humble at the end of Rock’72 movie, saying he was not a goodie goodie but a downer and outer?I guess you blew off his grave headstone as well.I never deified VPW, but I did see people like you doing it, and I felt they were headed for trouble.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
Yes, we can finally agree that things went pretty bad at TWI, especially after 1986.How someone could get into the Word, and take the class after 1986, and trust TWI-2 or TWI-3 is a mystery to me. God can work, even in the midst of hell on earth.
Wow Mike you are really going off the deep end here - basically accusing me of whatever I pointed out you are doing.
”Get into the Word”. Take the class - every facet of your communication can’t break free of Waybot braindumbing programming.
Not qualified to say what is error. Lol. Any blind fool can look at the isolationist result and practice of people in “Wayworld” and see the fruit rotting right out in public view.
It was Earl Burton who taught that the length of tongues should not be extremely short while the interpretation is extremely long.
Well, 'Ol Earl, endorsed, promoted and signed off on by victor paul wirewille, taught it wrong.
27 minutes ago, Mike said:
You don't need to be a language expert to know the lengths could vary some.
Vary some? SOME? We're talking tongues of angels, cuh! We're talking GLOSS-O-LALIA, son! The variance can be galactic! Huge! How can you not know this?
31 minutes ago, Mike said:
When I ran excellors sessions I made it a point that we would not be using a stopwatch.
Why would it ever occur to you to have to make that point? Why?
It was Earl Burton who taught that the length of tongues should not be extremely short while the interpretation is extremely long. I never got a sense of matching the number of seconds with a stop watch. You don't need to be a language expert to know the lengths could vary some.
When I ran excellors sessions I made it a point that we would not be using a stopwatch.
Mike, as an authentic tongue speaker (I take your word for it), you should know better than most here that a twelve syllable phrase of glossolalia may require a two paragraph interpretation in English. It may not always, but sometimes it may.
Surely, you know this!
Surely, you also know that often no interpretation at all is even possible. Even in a believer's meeting. The tongue may be given, but the tongue and its interpretation may be too advanced for the speaker, but God still inspires that utterance.
That's one way I can spot the counterfeit. All those stilted, contrived interpretations. Most of the interpretations I heard were Grade A bullshonta. Sincere, sure. But what is sincerity NOT a guarantee of? That's right. The truth.
What can be taught is how to overcome fears about SIT, and also what our part in the matter is, as opposed to God's part in the matter.
It is fear and confusion that limit people in SIT. Teaching can handle fear and teaching can handle confusion. The rest is God's part, and nobody gets missed!
Why did you think that VPW taught us how to SIT? He didn't. He taught us how to manage our thoughts about it that hinder us in it.
Your understanding of what we were taught in SIT is paltry.
victor gaslighted people into SIT. That's why they are counterfeit, even if one beleeeves they are real.
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, d say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34Women f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. g
36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. h
39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, d say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34Women f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. g
36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. h
39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
All of this is about intelligibility. It's about people understanding what is said. Prophesy is more important than SIT because it's intelligible. Paul begins and ends this chapter with the intelligibility of prophesy being more important than SIT. Sure, don't forbid SIT, but please, someone needs to interpret that shonta!
That's why it's dangerous to call on someone to speak in tongues. He may not be able to interpret, but nonetheless feels compelled to adhere to groupthink and SIT. Hence, the contrived interpretations. It's mean to call someone out to SIT and interpret.
victor placed way too much importance on SIT. He totally misunderstood what Paul was trying to tell those babbling Corinthians. SIT is the most overrated of the gifts... or manifestations... or whatever one need to call them.
(IMO, verse 34 and 35 are later interpolations designed to smooth out and harmonize a similar teaching in Timothy.)
No lies. Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped. By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
10 hours ago, Mike said:
No lies.
No, this is mostly lies and bull$hit from you, chockful.
Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped.
No, VPW augmented the Jesus Movement.
It was missing lots of things and that is why Heefner and Doop went to HQ to learn much more than the mostly emotional Jesus Movement could provide.I could see that the Jesus Freaks of that time were on an emotion trip mostly, and that is why the media loved them. That was why I stayed away from them.
This idea that VPW used the Jesus Movement is a lie that is being repeated often here for all to blindly absorb.
You are trying to brainwash as you have been brainwashed.First the Corps cult got your gord, and now the “Let’s Hate VPW” cult going on here has got your gord.Just like TWI had a mixture of truth and TVTs and of God’s family with cult, GreaseSpot has some good conversation mixed with bull$hit and lies.
By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
No, this is a lie.If Heefner was the necessary ingredient to what happened at Rye and Long Island, then why did things not wind down fast after they were booted?We did not even notice any change when they left, because we were too busy eating up the class.
You got it all wrong!
There was a winding down of things, but not in TWI-1 work.It was Heefner and Doop that wound down to nothing after they were booted.
Heener did not act like much of a man of God, and accepted the firing, and I never heard word one of him doing any ministry work after he lost his glory position in NY.
On the other hand, Doop tried to get a ministry started in Calif called the “Tripped Out Ministry” which went exactly nowhere, and a few years later Doop returned to serve in TWI, where he ran orgies in Maine according to at least two Maine witnesses.
Another part of the lies about the early ministry that proliferate here is this idea that Heefner got something going in NY.What I saw happening was there were lots of people suddenly running the class with zero experience, so VPW asked Heefner to leave CA and go to NY to help coordinate the work that was already going on.
My twig was run for a short time by a 17 year old from Heefner’s branch in CA.He too and a couple of others came out with Heefner to help run things.That 17 year old filled in for the regular twig leader in my area who went to HQ to take the Advanced Class.There was an extreme shortage of leaders and lots of students and THAT is why Heefner had a lot of work to do. He did NOT start it; he helped with the work that sprung up.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
No, my approach for the first couple of years was extreme caution, and going VERY SLOW on many new doctrines I was learning.My approach was very much the opposite of Penwork’s testimony of how she was all enthralled AT THE START with goo goo eyes for VPW, and an instant desire to join the Corps, even before she took the class.
If you wanted to go Corps sooner than 2 years after taking the class, I would peg you as the impulsive emotional decision kind of person, like Penworks.I had to be SURE for 11 years before I even went out WOW.Seeing how big a failure the Corps was, I’d say you got what you earned.I also feel sad how you not only “snapped” to get into the Corps cult adoring VPW, but also, at the next snap, into the VPW hate club.I can’t trust snappers.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
No, that division happened only for those snapped into the “we are the best, we are the Way Corps” cult.
But when we more balanced grads approach people in other churches, there is a small amount we can learn from how they do things, and a HUGE amount of right doctrines we can help the hungry with in those churches.
We were given the best doctrines so we can help others with them, and that includes helping others stuck in the traditional errors of regular churches.
This situation has lightened up some in the 50 years that have passed since Rye, in that many PFAL grads drifted out of TWI and into the regular churches.Lots of churches now get into SIT where only a few did in the Rye days. Lots of churches now get eternal life and rewards separate and not confused.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
No, that only applies to the elitist snobs that infiltrated and ruined the Corps.I sense from your contributions here that you were not a good leader in the Corps.You are not excited about the good stuff we learned, and you forget the good you got from VPW.
We were given the ability to spot the good stuff going on in other churches as well as the bad. Those with a heart to help found ways to communicate with other Christians.After 1986I sense that there was none of this left in the Corps.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No, you are not qualified to say what is error or not, and if you had your way ALL that VPW taught would be error in your imagined church.If you deified VPW like Penworks says she did, then I understand your consternation.I guess you thought he was being humble at the end of Rock’72 movie, saying he was not a goodie goodie but a downer and outer?I guess you blew off his grave headstone as well.I never deified VPW, but I did see people like you doing it, and I felt they were headed for trouble.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
Yes, we can finally agree that things went pretty bad at TWI, especially after 1986.How someone could get into the Word, and take the class after 1986, and trust TWI-2 or TWI-3 is a mystery to me. God can work, even in the midst of hell on earth.
9 hours ago, chockfull said:
Wow Mike you are really going off the deep end here - basically accusing me of whatever I pointed out you are doing.
”Get into the Word”. Take the class - every facet of your communication can’t break free of Waybot braindumbing programming.
Not qualified to say what is error. Lol. Any blind fool can look at the isolationist result and practice of people in “Wayworld” and see the fruit rotting right out in public view.
Careful there, Chockful, seems you are speaking too much historical truth regarding vpw and you are setting mikey's cognitive dissonance into overdrive...that nostalgic, mostly romantiscized version of the bad ole days is all these wayfers have to hold onto, that and a romantiscied, nostalgic version of thier bronzed idol...
All of this is about intelligibility. It's about people understanding what is said. Prophesy is more important than SIT because it's intelligible. Paul begins and ends this chapter with the intelligibility of prophesy being more important than SIT. Sure, don't forbid SIT, but please, someone needs to interpret that shonta!
That's why it's dangerous to call on someone to speak in tongues. He may not be able to interpret, but nonetheless feels compelled to adhere to groupthink and SIT. Hence, the contrived interpretations. It's mean to call someone out to SIT and interpret.
victor placed way too much importance on SIT. He totally misunderstood what Paul was trying to tell those babbling Corinthians. SIT is the most overrated of the gifts... or manifestations... or whatever one need to call them.
(IMO, verse 34 and 35 are later interpolations designed to smooth out and harmonize a similar teaching in Timothy.)
Yes Nathan agreed. He made a circus show out of a portion of those scriptures and completely brainwashed others concerning the “body of Christ” “household” in other portions of the same verses.
The result of PFAL is a bunch of puffed up “ambassadors” fully convinced they have no need for the body of Christ.
Careful there, Chockful, seems you are speaking too much historical truth regarding vpw and you are setting mikey's cognitive dissonance into overdrive...that nostalgic, mostly romantiscized version of the bad ole days is all these wayfers have to hold onto, that and a romantiscied, nostalgic version of thier bronzed idol...
Yes Mikey reminds me of what a conversation would be like with JL or a director who has a different undisclosed reason for being “all in” on such nonsense.
And certainly lying to himself about the history of the poor treatment of the Jesus movement leaders by VP and his strong arm tactics to replace them. Mike is living proof that strong arm tactic came off with success as the dumb sheep at the time didn’t have the wherewithal to notice the distinction of the wolf in sheep clothes.
So sycophant Corps right in the very same room as Mike took over as VPs mouthpiece lauding PFAL to the sky. And the dumb ate it all right up.
I remember hyping the class and all the surrounding antics about “moving the Word over the world” and the WOW symbol. I went out WOW ambassador on the program. It resulted in wasted time little interest and mostly next to homeless people in our fellowships to the point leaders that were supposed evangelists were giving directions to witness to people with teeth, a car, and a job.
That is the same message the current president is hyping around the regional anniversary of “living victoriously” meetings around the country in US. “Word Over the World”
And pushing the work in the third world countries. It is remarkably similar to Russell Nelson’s focus on numbers in the Mormon church hyping up building overseas temples while combining wards locally in the US in the Mormon church because of low attendance and interest.
Wierwilles Word - thrice regurgitated and re consumed. That is the true meaning of Word Over the World
I see a big problem with the receive retain release deal. There should not be a retain factor, everything one receives is usually released anyway. Problem is the retain thingy. We receive and release all the time, no matter what it is. We should not retain most of it. Let our spirit sort it out.
No, this is mostly lies and bull$hit from you, chockful.
Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped.
No, VPW augmented the Jesus Movement.
It was missing lots of things and that is why Heefner and Doop went to HQ to learn much more than the mostly emotional Jesus Movement could provide.I could see that the Jesus Freaks of that time were on an emotion trip mostly, and that is why the media loved them. That was why I stayed away from them.
This idea that VPW used the Jesus Movement is a lie that is being repeated often here for all to blindly absorb.
You are trying to brainwash as you have been brainwashed.First the Corps cult got your gord, and now the “Let’s Hate VPW” cult going on here has got your gord.Just like TWI had a mixture of truth and TVTs and of God’s family with cult, GreaseSpot has some good conversation mixed with bull$hit and lies.
By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
No, this is a lie.If Heefner was the necessary ingredient to what happened at Rye and Long Island, then why did things not wind down fast after they were booted?We did not even notice any change when they left, because we were too busy eating up the class.
You got it all wrong!
There was a winding down of things, but not in TWI-1 work.It was Heefner and Doop that wound down to nothing after they were booted.
Heener did not act like much of a man of God, and accepted the firing, and I never heard word one of him doing any ministry work after he lost his glory position in NY.
On the other hand, Doop tried to get a ministry started in Calif called the “Tripped Out Ministry” which went exactly nowhere, and a few years later Doop returned to serve in TWI, where he ran orgies in Maine according to at least two Maine witnesses.
Another part of the lies about the early ministry that proliferate here is this idea that Heefner got something going in NY.What I saw happening was there were lots of people suddenly running the class with zero experience, so VPW asked Heefner to leave CA and go to NY to help coordinate the work that was already going on.
My twig was run for a short time by a 17 year old from Heefner’s branch in CA.He too and a couple of others came out with Heefner to help run things.That 17 year old filled in for the regular twig leader in my area who went to HQ to take the Advanced Class.There was an extreme shortage of leaders and lots of students and THAT is why Heefner had a lot of work to do. He did NOT start it; he helped with the work that sprung up.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
No, my approach for the first couple of years was extreme caution, and going VERY SLOW on many new doctrines I was learning.My approach was very much the opposite of Penwork’s testimony of how she was all enthralled AT THE START with goo goo eyes for VPW, and an instant desire to join the Corps, even before she took the class.
If you wanted to go Corps sooner than 2 years after taking the class, I would peg you as the impulsive emotional decision kind of person, like Penworks.I had to be SURE for 11 years before I even went out WOW.Seeing how big a failure the Corps was, I’d say you got what you earned.I also feel sad how you not only “snapped” to get into the Corps cult adoring VPW, but also, at the next snap, into the VPW hate club.I can’t trust snappers.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
No, that division happened only for those snapped into the “we are the best, we are the Way Corps” cult.
But when we more balanced grads approach people in other churches, there is a small amount we can learn from how they do things, and a HUGE amount of right doctrines we can help the hungry with in those churches.
We were given the best doctrines so we can help others with them, and that includes helping others stuck in the traditional errors of regular churches.
This situation has lightened up some in the 50 years that have passed since Rye, in that many PFAL grads drifted out of TWI and into the regular churches.Lots of churches now get into SIT where only a few did in the Rye days. Lots of churches now get eternal life and rewards separate and not confused.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
No, that only applies to the elitist snobs that infiltrated and ruined the Corps.I sense from your contributions here that you were not a good leader in the Corps.You are not excited about the good stuff we learned, and you forget the good you got from VPW.
We were given the ability to spot the good stuff going on in other churches as well as the bad. Those with a heart to help found ways to communicate with other Christians.After 1986I sense that there was none of this left in the Corps.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No, you are not qualified to say what is error or not, and if you had your way ALL that VPW taught would be error in your imagined church.If you deified VPW like Penworks says she did, then I understand your consternation.I guess you thought he was being humble at the end of Rock’72 movie, saying he was not a goodie goodie but a downer and outer?I guess you blew off his grave headstone as well.I never deified VPW, but I did see people like you doing it, and I felt they were headed for trouble.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
Yes, we can finally agree that things went pretty bad at TWI, especially after 1986.How someone could get into the Word, and take the class after 1986, and trust TWI-2 or TWI-3 is a mystery to me. God can work, even in the midst of hell on earth.
Besides @chockfull's insight I would ask what was being promised during those days of massive growth?
I know of one wheelchair bound invalid that was promised he would walk again.
So was PLAF, like snake oil, being marketed as a cure all?
Want your cancer cured? Take PLAF. You don't need a heart transplant. Take PLAF. Want your spouse to come home? Take PLAF.
I would also question the methods in marketing the class. Locally, it was stated that if someone wants to date you, use that to get them to take the class.
Use whatever means necessary to get them to take the class, it was stated.
Besides @chockfull's insight I would ask what was being promised during those days of massive growth?
I know of one wheelchair bound invalid that was promised he would walk again.
So was PLAF, like snake oil, being marketed as a cure all?
Want your cancer cured? Take PLAF. You don't need a heart transplant. Take PLAF. Want your spouse to come home? Take PLAF.
I would also question the methods in marketing the class. Locally, it was stated that if someone wants to date you, use that to get them to take the class.
Use whatever means necessary to get them to take the class, it was stated.
You are correct, it was pushed as having an answer to everything in life.
Nathan Jr, you had written:
"What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. "
17 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
I was talking about the original film class of PFAL.
Ohhh!
You simply did not understand why VPW made his SIT sound that way.
I wondered about that film class SIT mechanicalness for a few years, and then when I worked at HQ, in one Sunday 10:30am meeting I saw and clearly heard VPW speak in tongues and interpret. It was NOT mechanical, and it was VERY fluent, lots of beautiful language. I don't think there was a single shonta.
Now WHY did he do it so mechanically in the class?
It was to demonstrate (with emphasis) WHAT we needed to do with OUR mechanics of speech as our part in SIT.
In my excellors sessions I would do the same exaggerated amplitudes of facial muscles, and slowness of speech, dragging it out un-naturally. I did it so people could see what is meant by "mechanics of speech."
Remember SIT cannot be taught per se.... HOWEVER the fears that prevent or hinder SIT can be the topic of a teaching, in how to recognize such fears and overcome them.
The other thing that can be taught in leading people to SIT is what is God's part in the matter and what is our part in the matter.
Both parts can be seen in Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
They (the 12 apostles) did the operation of the mechanics of speech as to WHEN to speak, and God did the operation of supplying WHAT to speak.
So the mechanics of speech is very important to be taught with both words, and with body motion illustrations with exaggerated amplitudes and durations.
In other words it is SUPPOSED to be a mechanical and flesh bound triviality when it comes to the part WE have to do in SIT. VPW demonstrated this when he did SIT in the film.
I figured this out in the 70s and it helped a lot of people over the hump in several Intermediate Classes.
You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style?
The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching. Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error.
God does the hard part in supplying what is said. We do simple, trivial, mechanical, fleshh actions, and God designed the human body with this S.I.T. stuff in mind,and He wanted to make it as easy as possible, so "no one gets missed."
So the mechanics of speech is very important to be taught with both words, and with body motion illustrations with exaggerated amplitudes and durations.
Yeah...they had an excellor session right before they spoke in tongues....quit reading wierwille's goofy practices into scripture.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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waysider
Did you miss session 1?
Such as?
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Nathan_Jr
I never beleeeved I lacked abundant forgiveness from God. This was not something new to impress me. I was never taught I was unworthy until I took "the class." I never beleeeved I was nor could be condemned of anything until I took "the class." I never thought of God as a bit-chass pony character that needed or wanted anything from me, especially my money, until I took the class.
What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. What REALLY impressed me was that anyone at all was actually impressed with victor paul wierwille. I was REALLY impressed with how gullible people were to actually fawn over this little charlatan and say "mmmph" at the end of every segment.
NO! NOT SO FAST! STOP!
I never got that idea. I was never seduced by that idea. But that idea was, indeed, taught, and that it was taught at all DID catch my attention. I was never motivated by that idea. I never wanted for money and never beleeeved that God was to be sought for it.
The sycophants administering PFAL to me were duped in 1975, went CORPS and WOW, got out in 1986, completely mastered the collaterals, SNTs, and all books and tapes by victor, yet were living very near the poverty line... in Louisiana!!
I never thought that. I never bought ANY of the bull$hit. (Hello, Irony. I seeeeee yooouuu.)
I was never satisfied with faking tongues. Who told you that? I'll repeat myself for you and for the folks at home. I am trilingual in glossolalia and I can interpret my native tongue into glossolalia and vice versa. I can STF out of SIT. I can even write in glossolalia. I wish you all could SIT as much as I can.
I know (twice revealed = established) that teaching someone how (H-O-W) to interpret by matching syllables and duration is factually, objectively and demonstrably false. If anyone ever taught that, say, in an excellor class, they taught it wrong.
SIT and TIP cannot be taught. That's how you can tell a phony. Any form of SIT and TIP that is taught it counterfeit.
Really? What did you do?
NO! STOP! YIKES!
It indicates someone has been deeply manipulated to be dishonest in an effort to appease a counterfeit fraudster.
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Mike
No lies.
No, this is mostly lies and bull$hit from you, chockful.
Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped.
No, VPW augmented the Jesus Movement.
It was missing lots of things and that is why Heefner and Doop went to HQ to learn much more than the mostly emotional Jesus Movement could provide. I could see that the Jesus Freaks of that time were on an emotion trip mostly, and that is why the media loved them. That was why I stayed away from them.
This idea that VPW used the Jesus Movement is a lie that is being repeated often here for all to blindly absorb.
You are trying to brainwash as you have been brainwashed. First the Corps cult got your gord, and now the “Let’s Hate VPW” cult going on here has got your gord. Just like TWI had a mixture of truth and TVTs and of God’s family with cult, GreaseSpot has some good conversation mixed with bull$hit and lies.
By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
No, this is a lie. If Heefner was the necessary ingredient to what happened at Rye and Long Island, then why did things not wind down fast after they were booted? We did not even notice any change when they left, because we were too busy eating up the class.
You got it all wrong!
There was a winding down of things, but not in TWI-1 work. It was Heefner and Doop that wound down to nothing after they were booted.
Heener did not act like much of a man of God, and accepted the firing, and I never heard word one of him doing any ministry work after he lost his glory position in NY.
On the other hand, Doop tried to get a ministry started in Calif called the “Tripped Out Ministry” which went exactly nowhere, and a few years later Doop returned to serve in TWI, where he ran orgies in Maine according to at least two Maine witnesses.
Another part of the lies about the early ministry that proliferate here is this idea that Heefner got something going in NY. What I saw happening was there were lots of people suddenly running the class with zero experience, so VPW asked Heefner to leave CA and go to NY to help coordinate the work that was already going on.
My twig was run for a short time by a 17 year old from Heefner’s branch in CA. He too and a couple of others came out with Heefner to help run things. That 17 year old filled in for the regular twig leader in my area who went to HQ to take the Advanced Class. There was an extreme shortage of leaders and lots of students and THAT is why Heefner had a lot of work to do. He did NOT start it; he helped with the work that sprung up.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
No, my approach for the first couple of years was extreme caution, and going VERY SLOW on many new doctrines I was learning. My approach was very much the opposite of Penwork’s testimony of how she was all enthralled AT THE START with goo goo eyes for VPW, and an instant desire to join the Corps, even before she took the class.
If you wanted to go Corps sooner than 2 years after taking the class, I would peg you as the impulsive emotional decision kind of person, like Penworks. I had to be SURE for 11 years before I even went out WOW. Seeing how big a failure the Corps was, I’d say you got what you earned. I also feel sad how you not only “snapped” to get into the Corps cult adoring VPW, but also, at the next snap, into the VPW hate club. I can’t trust snappers.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
No, that division happened only for those snapped into the “we are the best, we are the Way Corps” cult.
But when we more balanced grads approach people in other churches, there is a small amount we can learn from how they do things, and a HUGE amount of right doctrines we can help the hungry with in those churches.
We were given the best doctrines so we can help others with them, and that includes helping others stuck in the traditional errors of regular churches.
This situation has lightened up some in the 50 years that have passed since Rye, in that many PFAL grads drifted out of TWI and into the regular churches. Lots of churches now get into SIT where only a few did in the Rye days. Lots of churches now get eternal life and rewards separate and not confused.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
No, that only applies to the elitist snobs that infiltrated and ruined the Corps. I sense from your contributions here that you were not a good leader in the Corps. You are not excited about the good stuff we learned, and you forget the good you got from VPW.
We were given the ability to spot the good stuff going on in other churches as well as the bad. Those with a heart to help found ways to communicate with other Christians. After 1986 I sense that there was none of this left in the Corps.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No, you are not qualified to say what is error or not, and if you had your way ALL that VPW taught would be error in your imagined church. If you deified VPW like Penworks says she did, then I understand your consternation. I guess you thought he was being humble at the end of Rock’72 movie, saying he was not a goodie goodie but a downer and outer? I guess you blew off his grave headstone as well. I never deified VPW, but I did see people like you doing it, and I felt they were headed for trouble.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
Yes, we can finally agree that things went pretty bad at TWI, especially after 1986. How someone could get into the Word, and take the class after 1986, and trust TWI-2 or TWI-3 is a mystery to me. God can work, even in the midst of hell on earth.
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Mike
What can be taught is how to overcome fears about SIT, and also what our part in the matter is, as opposed to God's part in the matter.
It is fear and confusion that limit people in SIT. Teaching can handle fear and teaching can handle confusion. The rest is God's part, and nobody gets missed!
Why did you think that VPW taught us how to SIT? He didn't. He taught us how to manage our thoughts about it that hinder us in it.
Your understanding of what we were taught in SIT is paltry.
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Mike
It was Earl Burton who taught that the length of tongues should not be extremely short while the interpretation is extremely long. I never got a sense of matching the number of seconds with a stop watch. You don't need to be a language expert to know the lengths could vary some.
When I ran excellors sessions I made it a point that we would not be using a stopwatch.
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Mike
If I remember correctly you got into TWI after 1986. If it is aimed at post-1986 TWI, then I would agree with your assessment above of HQ, the Corps, and lots of local areas (but not all).
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Nathan_Jr
Yikes!
Then why the Intermediate Class? Why excellor? What is this phony business about matching syllables and duration when interpreting? Lots of teaching on H-O-W.
Not everyone can or should speak in tongues It proves nothing but itself. It is evident of nothing but itself. Victor totally missed the mark on what and why Paul and the author of Luke wrote on the subject. Hey! Even vic has to crawl before he can walk.
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Nathan_Jr
I was talking about the original film class of PFAL.
I never got into TWI.
TWI and the money-making corporate machine invented and established by victor paul wierwille is another matter but with similar attributes.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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chockfull
Wow Mike you are really going off the deep end here - basically accusing me of whatever I pointed out you are doing.
”Get into the Word”. Take the class - every facet of your communication can’t break free of Waybot braindumbing programming.
Not qualified to say what is error. Lol. Any blind fool can look at the isolationist result and practice of people in “Wayworld” and see the fruit rotting right out in public view.
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Nathan_Jr
Well, 'Ol Earl, endorsed, promoted and signed off on by victor paul wirewille, taught it wrong.
Vary some? SOME? We're talking tongues of angels, cuh! We're talking GLOSS-O-LALIA, son! The variance can be galactic! Huge! How can you not know this?
Why would it ever occur to you to have to make that point? Why?
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Nathan_Jr
Mike, as an authentic tongue speaker (I take your word for it), you should know better than most here that a twelve syllable phrase of glossolalia may require a two paragraph interpretation in English. It may not always, but sometimes it may.
Surely, you know this!
Surely, you also know that often no interpretation at all is even possible. Even in a believer's meeting. The tongue may be given, but the tongue and its interpretation may be too advanced for the speaker, but God still inspires that utterance.
That's one way I can spot the counterfeit. All those stilted, contrived interpretations. Most of the interpretations I heard were Grade A bullshonta. Sincere, sure. But what is sincerity NOT a guarantee of? That's right. The truth.
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Nathan_Jr
victor gaslighted people into SIT. That's why they are counterfeit, even if one beleeeves they are real.
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T-Bone
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, d say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.” e
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34Women f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. g
36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. h
39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
1 Corinthians 14 NIV
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Nathan_Jr
All of this is about intelligibility. It's about people understanding what is said. Prophesy is more important than SIT because it's intelligible. Paul begins and ends this chapter with the intelligibility of prophesy being more important than SIT. Sure, don't forbid SIT, but please, someone needs to interpret that shonta!
That's why it's dangerous to call on someone to speak in tongues. He may not be able to interpret, but nonetheless feels compelled to adhere to groupthink and SIT. Hence, the contrived interpretations. It's mean to call someone out to SIT and interpret.
victor placed way too much importance on SIT. He totally misunderstood what Paul was trying to tell those babbling Corinthians. SIT is the most overrated of the gifts... or manifestations... or whatever one need to call them.
(IMO, verse 34 and 35 are later interpolations designed to smooth out and harmonize a similar teaching in Timothy.)
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OldSkool
Careful there, Chockful, seems you are speaking too much historical truth regarding vpw and you are setting mikey's cognitive dissonance into overdrive...that nostalgic, mostly romantiscized version of the bad ole days is all these wayfers have to hold onto, that and a romantiscied, nostalgic version of thier bronzed idol...
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chockfull
Yes Nathan agreed. He made a circus show out of a portion of those scriptures and completely brainwashed others concerning the “body of Christ” “household” in other portions of the same verses.
The result of PFAL is a bunch of puffed up “ambassadors” fully convinced they have no need for the body of Christ.
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chockfull
Yes Mikey reminds me of what a conversation would be like with JL or a director who has a different undisclosed reason for being “all in” on such nonsense.
And certainly lying to himself about the history of the poor treatment of the Jesus movement leaders by VP and his strong arm tactics to replace them. Mike is living proof that strong arm tactic came off with success as the dumb sheep at the time didn’t have the wherewithal to notice the distinction of the wolf in sheep clothes.
So sycophant Corps right in the very same room as Mike took over as VPs mouthpiece lauding PFAL to the sky. And the dumb ate it all right up.
I remember hyping the class and all the surrounding antics about “moving the Word over the world” and the WOW symbol. I went out WOW ambassador on the program. It resulted in wasted time little interest and mostly next to homeless people in our fellowships to the point leaders that were supposed evangelists were giving directions to witness to people with teeth, a car, and a job.
That is the same message the current president is hyping around the regional anniversary of “living victoriously” meetings around the country in US. “Word Over the World”
And pushing the work in the third world countries. It is remarkably similar to Russell Nelson’s focus on numbers in the Mormon church hyping up building overseas temples while combining wards locally in the US in the Mormon church because of low attendance and interest.
Wierwilles Word - thrice regurgitated and re consumed. That is the true meaning of Word Over the World
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So_crates
As if Saint Vic acted like a man of God.
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cman
I see a big problem with the receive retain release deal. There should not be a retain factor, everything one receives is usually released anyway. Problem is the retain thingy. We receive and release all the time, no matter what it is. We should not retain most of it. Let our spirit sort it out.
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So_crates
Besides @chockfull's insight I would ask what was being promised during those days of massive growth?
I know of one wheelchair bound invalid that was promised he would walk again.
So was PLAF, like snake oil, being marketed as a cure all?
Want your cancer cured? Take PLAF. You don't need a heart transplant. Take PLAF. Want your spouse to come home? Take PLAF.
I would also question the methods in marketing the class. Locally, it was stated that if someone wants to date you, use that to get them to take the class.
Use whatever means necessary to get them to take the class, it was stated.
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OldSkool
You are correct, it was pushed as having an answer to everything in life.
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Nathan_Jr
I think the Quran makes the same claim, or so I’ve heard.
One can be assured that anyone claiming to have the answer to everything is the one who does not.
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Mike
Nathan Jr, you had written:
"What impressed me was the mechanical, corporeal, one-dimensional shallowness of it all. "
Ohhh!
You simply did not understand why VPW made his SIT sound that way.
I wondered about that film class SIT mechanicalness for a few years, and then when I worked at HQ, in one Sunday 10:30am meeting I saw and clearly heard VPW speak in tongues and interpret. It was NOT mechanical, and it was VERY fluent, lots of beautiful language. I don't think there was a single shonta.
Now WHY did he do it so mechanically in the class?
It was to demonstrate (with emphasis) WHAT we needed to do with OUR mechanics of speech as our part in SIT.
In my excellors sessions I would do the same exaggerated amplitudes of facial muscles, and slowness of speech, dragging it out un-naturally. I did it so people could see what is meant by "mechanics of speech."
Remember SIT cannot be taught per se.... HOWEVER the fears that prevent or hinder SIT can be the topic of a teaching, in how to recognize such fears and overcome them.
The other thing that can be taught in leading people to SIT is what is God's part in the matter and what is our part in the matter.
Both parts can be seen in Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
They (the 12 apostles) did the operation of the mechanics of speech as to WHEN to speak, and God did the operation of supplying WHAT to speak.
So the mechanics of speech is very important to be taught with both words, and with body motion illustrations with exaggerated amplitudes and durations.
In other words it is SUPPOSED to be a mechanical and flesh bound triviality when it comes to the part WE have to do in SIT. VPW demonstrated this when he did SIT in the film.
I figured this out in the 70s and it helped a lot of people over the hump in several Intermediate Classes.
You were expecting VPW's film class SIT to be something mystical sounding or like a radio announcer in style?
The fact that you object to the mechanicalness of how he did it shows that you did not deeply comprehend what was going on in that aspect of the PFAL teaching. Don't feel too bad, though, you have a lot of company here in this error.
God does the hard part in supplying what is said. We do simple, trivial, mechanical, fleshh actions, and God designed the human body with this S.I.T. stuff in mind,and He wanted to make it as easy as possible, so "no one gets missed."
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OldSkool
Yeah...they had an excellor session right before they spoke in tongues....quit reading wierwille's goofy practices into scripture.
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