Are you serious about implementing NT scriptures, yet you say the whole Bible is myths?
Did you say that? That was my impression. It's hard for me, sometimes, to keep track of who wants to believe the Bible and who does not.
This might be a good time to expand both your understanding of myth and the bible... and expand your imagination. Thank you for the question however. I don't hold either the bible OR mythology the same way I did as a fundamentalist wayfer.
Surely you've heard of the concept of paradox? Oh, and why is it important for you to keep track of what anyone wants to do or believe?
Mark 5:25
And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, “If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.” And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, “Who touched my clothes?” And his disciples said unto him,” Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?” And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change.These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit.
WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead?
Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him?Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job?
These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it.
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
1. Every word highlighted above are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with.
3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub
"And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby:
that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever.
Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy."
Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
1. Every word highlighted above are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
I neglected to cite which version I was quoting there.
But I wouldn't add any words deliberately. It may have been one of those looser versions?
I don't remember where I pasted that from now. Sorry if I erred...
Nice try, but you are a rank amateur at conjuring up fear and condemnation.
Here's a hint: even if you get skilled at this, it only works on those who have not made the Word the guiding light of their life.
maybe it's just me...but I find insinuations and harsh criticisms tend to confuse the message… I wonder if what was really meant was:to become skilled in the illusions of terror and disapproval, one must make all things wierwille / PFALthe guiding light of their life.
40 minutes ago, Mike said:
I don't get it.
Are you serious about implementing NT scriptures, yet you say the whole Bible is myths?
Did you say that? That was my impression. It's hard for me, sometimes, to keep track of who wants to believe the Bible and who does not.
Again – this is probably just me – sometimes I read into things…and there's also a cascading effect from the surge of previous statements and besides the fact that additional suggestive talk with bitter undertones puts the double-whammy to send the wrong message…I get the feeling – - what this really means (and like I said, I could be wrong) is that those who have made all things wierwille / PFALthe guiding light of their life, skilled illusionists of terror and disapproval, find it extremely difficult to communicate with others who have not made all things wierwille / PFALthe guiding light of their life.
Parsing some semantics, I suppose. Indeed, only God knows, if anyone, at this point. However, the point I was making has to do with Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. After all, our species is fundamentally social. But most certainly wouldn't argue that he put himself in the box. And whether he ever climbs out is quite definitely up to him.
However, I also seem to recall NT scriptures about not placing stumbling blocks in front of our brothers or sisters.
You're correct Rocky,
Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Along with that verse, I think Ephesians 4:14a and 15 are also helpful verses to remember when discussing scripture in an open forum:
14a That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
14a That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From the twi perspective, that verse 14a seemed like a warning to not let yourself go farther than they led you...
I don't know whether very many children received much of an education back in those days... but WE have LOTS of truth, facts, and wisdom available to us to grow up into. I'm thankful I wasn't afraid to explore beyond the twi boundaries of knowledge.
From the twi perspective, that verse 14a seemed like a warning to not let yourself go farther than they led you...
I don't know whether very many children received much of an education back in those days... but WE have LOTS of truth, facts, and wisdom available to us to grow up into. I'm thankful I wasn't afraid to explore beyond the twi boundaries of knowledge.
twi definitely wanted us to have a mindset based on their way of thinking - I was thinking of these verses as describing a scriptural mindset (like just read what's written) but I see your point that everyone has the freedom to develop their own mindset for themselves.
It's hard for me, sometimes, to keep track of who wants to believe the Bible and who does not.
I dunno Mike, Ive shown you reams of scripture on various topics you reject in favor of wierwille's trash plagairaized book and class: PFLAP. So who doesnt belive the Bible? Hopefully you are including yourself in that category.
I neglected to cite which version I was quoting there.
But I wouldn't add any words deliberately. It may have been one of those looser versions?
I don't remember where I pasted that from now. Sorry if I erred...
Good morning Mike, let me try it this way to clarify my point concerning what you had written about the woman touching the garment of Jesus.
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(KJV)
1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change.These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit.
WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead?
Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him?Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job?
These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it.
2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with.
3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub
"And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby:
that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever.
Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy."
Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.
I realize that using the word budget is a real hot loaded word a real attention getter. I used it to get my own attention in my file cabinet with my paper folder for this topic. It was a very underused folder and it needed an attention getting name to avoid getting completely lost in my file cabinet but it communicates something to me and I haven’t been real clear about what that is, so then so I’m finally getting to that.
This is the beginning list I promised for the budget scriptures. It seems that dumping the whole list here would mean some items get less scrutiny, so I’ll do it in pieces.
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The reason budget is such a crazy attention getter is because we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets. But we also know that God doesn’t always get His way on the Earthly flesh realm that we live in and die in. The “Our Father” prayer that Jesus taught embodies this paradox, this anomaly, this “What is going on here?” the universe that we’re living in, where God’s will is rarely done on Earth.
Brand new to the Bible at age 22, I had never even seen a Bible in church, and never touched one, never read one. We had a book we called a Missal, which was Bible clippings, and prayers and passages from the Middle Ages, and a big mixture of a lot of things. But they looked just like Bibles with black covers and ribbons. But I had never read the Bible at all until I became a hippie, and then my working of it was very lame, and then it suddenly changed one day with my first twig fellowship.
One of the first things I noticed in the Bible was that a lot of times God just barely won the battles in the Old Testament. It was a struggle between God and Pharaoh in Egypt.It was a struggle between Archangel Michael and that angel who reported in Daniel 9. Then in everyday life, when God would win the struggle it was always just by a hair, or it seemed sometimes the timing was just at the last minute. These were just impressions I got from life, and I’m noticing at age 22, that it’s in the Bible too that God seemed to be somewhat limited in His dealings with people in the Old Testament.
And then it changed with Jesus.
John 3:34-35 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jesus was given spirit without measure, as opposed to the way things were done in the Old Testament were spirit was given with measure. Jesus got an infinite dose of spirit whatever that means.
Which brings us to the great principle. But more on that later.
Elisha said, “Leave me a double portion of your spirit…”
Elisha had a natural man mind that was enmity against God, and thought the things of God were foolishness, and had a natural reaction of fear to any kind of spiritual intervention by the true God. Daniel 9 talks about the reactions of the other people around Daniel to the angelic visit and how fearful they were about it, resembling the way wild animals are afraid of humans.
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2 Kings 2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 2:10 Elijah replied, “That’s a difficult request! If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” [NET] Remarkably, the Bible records 28 miracles done by Elisha and 14 done by Elijah.
Elisha knew enough that he needed an interface with God so he wouldn’t be afraid, and he wouldn’t be ridiculing the things of God that he heard from Him, and that he could embrace things the way God saw things. A natural man mind can’t do this. It needs help. That’s what “spirit upon” was.
But what’s the most pertinent here is that Jesus got it without measure, while people before him got it with measure. It was limited; not infinite.
I have no idea what double spirit means, but I know God is saying something that’s getting my attention there, and I keep it in mind. why not triple? Why didn’t that prophet ask for triple? I don’t know but I do know we asked for double and that’s interesting to me.
The big question I get from all this is “Why is God using the idea of MEASURE here for spirit and spiritual things?Measure denotes limits, finite bounds to size.That’s what budgets are.Our cars do not have infinite gas tanks or batteries to run on.There is a FINITE MEASURE to how much gas or electricity we have to move our cars, and this applies to lots of other things.This is the stuff budgets are made of if a wise eye is aware of such finite measures.
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Sometimes and in some places and some scriptures the “budget” seems a little tight.If it states it in the scriptures then we know something, and we may not know at all, but at least we got SOME kind of info from the scripture.
Paul was being hassled by people a lot, and he prayed (with believing I’d think) for God to open His door to infinite resources and fix this hindering situation.I was stunned to read in my early twenties that God had this answer to Paul’s prayers for deliverance:
2 Corinthians 12:9 NIV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
There seems to be a sense of glory in just squeaking by with a finite measure… or budget.
This verse STILL gives me cause to pause, and think a little about the things going on behind the scenes spiritually with Jesus and the good angels, doing whatever they do.The verse tells me here it was a tight budget time for Paul at that time… unlike other times where Paul was on top of things, like in jail and singing in a friendly earthquake.
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Like that verse on Paul’s thorn in the flesh, this one in Garden of Gethsemane says to me that even for Jesus who had spirit without measure, there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.”Look how explicit this scene is here:
Mark 14:35,36
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him.“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
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Giving a measure indicates a turning away from the possibility of infinite.
Giving a measure indicates a budget if it includes a wise handler of the finite commodity.
A budget means a wise handling of a finite measure.
So first of all I do not automatically accept all the Wierwillisms bound up in your explanation as they don’t make logical sense.
John 3:34 talks about in many Bible versions spirit without limit.
There are 2 ways to look at it. One is that Holy Spirit is like a cake recipe and God added one cup of flour in the OT but the NT gets 2 cups of flour.
With God not being a respecter of persons and me not being brainwashed by Great Pranciple charts there is another apparent interpretation even within Wierwille constraints.
Without limit. What was the limit? In the OT it was conditionally based where it could depart from a person.
In the NT we are born again of incorruptible seed. So it doesn’t depart. However Jesus refers to those with seared conscience who seemingly no longer see whatever messages upon the heart the Holy Spirit is trying to work there due to a deep thickening of the veins from a high fat Pharisee diet and practice.
Then we get into the real meat of the relationship with Christ and that draws a distinction. Those who magnify the “law of believing” and those who magnify the Christ relationship. The law of believing folks have to resort to smacking that dashboard Jesus and wondering why it doesn’t talk back.
The others have a prayer life actually.
So my conclusion comes back to the limits being introduced by the false doctrine of PFAL and limits imposed by cults that explain why their followers never win in life.
With an unlimited power source the self restricting budget experts who study collaterals for 20 years and no other free thought will predictably have a limited budget on how much God is able to help them.
Breaking free of the false doctrine however places the Christian in a place where the truth can set us free.
Good morning Mike, let me try it this way to clarify my point concerning what you had written about the woman touching the garment of Jesus.
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(KJV)
1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change.These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit.
WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead?
Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him?Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job?
These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it.
2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with.
3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub
"And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby:
that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever.
Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy."
Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.
This record is a clear example of unlimited power. All discounted by the PFlappy expert as saying God was trying to have a budget discussion with Jesus.
Hilarious.
I mean exactly the opposite is true. Put yourself in the moment there. There is such unlimited power available that a woman is instantaneously healed by touching Jesus clothes and he felt the power (dunamis) like dynamite energize and cure the lady.
Then he turned to make it a teaching moment, not on budgeting by Ramsey but on believing the fulness of the truth to receive the fulness of the power.
I think we are bound by “budgeting thinking” more than we realize. And it’s a bondage thing not a freedom thing.
This record is a clear example of unlimited power. All discounted by the PFlappy expert as saying God was trying to have a budget discussion with Jesus.
Hilarious.
I mean exactly the opposite is true. Put yourself in the moment there. There is such unlimited power available that a woman is instantaneously healed by touching Jesus clothes and he felt the power (dunamis) like dynamite energize and cure the lady.
Then he turned to make it a teaching moment, not on budgeting by Ramsey but on believing the fulness of the truth to receive the fulness of the power.
I think we are bound by “budgeting thinking” more than we realize. And it’s a bondage thing not a freedom thing.
Thank you so much for your post Chockfull. This is exactly what I meant in my post about Mike's reference to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. It just makes me wonder if he even realizes the greatness and heart of Jesus in the verses he quotes about him or if he only sees them through his man-made "budgeting" lens. The former speaks of a relational understanding of our Lord and the latter speaks of a purely intellectual-lala-land concept of Jesus in the Bible (imo).
In the NT we are born again of incorruptible seed. So it doesn’t depart. However Jesus refers to those with seared conscience who seemingly no longer see whatever messages upon the heart the Holy Spirit is trying to work there due to a deep thickening of the veins from a high fat Pharisee diet and practice.
Hi, AfterI read your post, I looked up the verse about having a seared conscience which was cool but I then noticed something else!
1 Tim 4:1-5
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times. So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread."
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times. So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread."
I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to both Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:
Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.
later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).
For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?
I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not...just keep on with the keeping on" yeah that's my new motto.
1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
If you like the law of believing...
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that I added words to the verse quotation.
Hmmm.
Don't we all add words to the words of the Biblical text, when we discuss that text, after quoting the text?
When did the rule come down that we can only use words found within a verse, when discussing the verse?
Is that what you are doing? Condemning my expression of an idea because I use my own words to describe it and not the words that the scholars who translated the Biblical text used? Please write us an essay on your new rule here. I think we all violate it often.
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I added words to show what I thought MAYBE the text was implying, or that other related texts could imply.
I capitalized the word MAYBE, because I got the impression that you think I am committed to this budget idea.... when I am not. Evidently you have not seen the many caveats I have made in this thread that say I am NOT committed to this idea at all... NONE!
This budget idea kept popping up over the decades as I read my Bible. It has nothing to do with the collaterals as you and others are stuck in a rut thinking.
For decades I would notice this idea popping up, make a small note, and throw the note in my paper folder, and dismiss the idea completely.... sometimes for months, sometimes for years... until it popped up again as I read my Bible.
To bad you didn't see this stand-offish attitude I have toward the budget idea.
You and the others are so caught up in condemning me (along with VPW) that you can't fix your minds on a new idea. You are stuck in many ruts an have almost no idea why I posted this thread.
I posted it to see the idea in daylight and focus for the first time, as I present it to the toughest audience I can imagine, to see if they can shoot down the idea, and see if I can defend it. This month is the first time I systematically explored this idea in my whole life. Do you see how wrong you were to think I got this from VPW and that I have been thinking this budget idea in all my doings since the 1970s ??? You (and the others here) just have no clue to what I think or what I am doing, and that convinces me you were scant on understanding in the past when VPW was alive.
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Too bad most of my audience has not the focus of mind to get it off VPW condemnation, and get it off Mike condemnation, and get it on the idea of the budget... just temporarily, for exploratory discussion. Every now and then someone makes a good point on the topic of the idea or may latest post on the idea, and I am happy for that.
But for you to try and pry my conscience with statements like I had no heart for what Jesus went through in the Garden and how could I say such terrible things .... All I can say is you've stooped to become what you condemn.
You, along with others quickly stoop to try and use the same mind control on me that TWI used on you, if it will win you an argument before others. That is what happens when you focus on hate and dislike and disgust in a brother in Christ. You become what you look at, if you do it long enough and hard enough. Read John's first epistle and see if you are skirting the edge of hate that he warns about there with how you regard your brother VPW, me, and other PFAL fans.
...saying God was trying to have a budget discussion with Jesus.
Actually, my focus is on why God was telling US about what Jesus felt by including it in the scriptures?
Why should we care what Jesus felt for that moment? What POSSIBLE doctrine can be gained from this portion of text?
I think it's a peek for us to see a tiny glimpse on the machinery at work behind the scenes, just like peeks in the past, like Daniel 9, and Paul's request for thorn relief, etc.
It just makes me wonder if he even realizes the greatness and heart of Jesus in the verses he quotes about him or if he only sees them through his man-made "budgeting" lens. The former speaks of a relational understanding of our Lord and the latter speaks of a purely intellectual-lala-land concept of Jesus in the Bible (imo).
This was part of what I was talking about earlier.
For you to think that I have a "man-made 'budgeting' lens" in my line of sight means you have not read this thread carefully with understanding.
Then for you to think I have a less valid relationship with Jesus than yours is so very much TWI Corps Pharasee that you ought to be given honorary Corps membership. You have become what you focus your hate on...
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that I added words to the verse quotation.
Hmmm.
Don't we all add words to the words of the Biblical text, when we discuss that text, after quoting the text?
When did the rule come down that we can only use words found within a verse, when discussing the verse?
Is that what you are doing? Condemning my expression of an idea because I use my own words to describe it and not the words that the scholars who translated the Biblical text used? Please write us an essay on your new rule here. I think we all violate it often.
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I added words to show what I thought MAYBE the text was implying, or that other related texts could imply.
I capitalized the word MAYBE, because I got the impression that you think I am committed to this budget idea.... when I am not. Evidently you have not seen the many caveats I have made in this thread that say I am NOT committed to this idea at all... NONE!
This budget idea kept popping up over the decades as I read my Bible. It has nothing to do with the collaterals as you and others are stuck in a rut thinking.
For decades I would notice this idea popping up, make a small note, and throw the note in my paper folder, and dismiss the idea completely.... sometimes for months, sometimes for years... until it popped up again as I read my Bible.
To bad you didn't see this stand-offish attitude I have toward the budget idea.
You and the others are so caught up in condemning me (along with VPW) that you can't fix your minds on a new idea. You are stuck in many ruts an have almost no idea why I posted this thread.
I posted it to see the idea in daylight and focus for the first time, as I present it to the toughest audience I can imagine, to see if they can shoot down the idea, and see if I can defend it. This month is the first time I systematically explored this idea in my whole life. Do you see how wrong you were to think I got this from VPW and that I have been thinking this budget idea in all my doings since the 1970s ??? You (and the others here) just have no clue to what I think or what I am doing, and that convinces me you were scant on understanding in the past when VPW was alive.
*/*/*
Too bad most of my audience has not the focus of mind to get it off VPW condemnation, and get it off Mike condemnation, and get it on the idea of the budget... just temporarily, for exploratory discussion. Every now and then someone makes a good point on the topic of the idea or may latest post on the idea, and I am happy for that.
But for you to try and pry my conscience with statements like I had no heart for what Jesus went through in the Garden and how could I say such terrible things .... All I can say is you've stooped to become what you condemn.
You, along with others quickly stoop to try and use the same mind control on me that TWI used on you, if it will win you an argument before others. That is what happens when you focus on hate and dislike and disgust in a brother in Christ. You become what you look at, if you do it long enough and hard enough. Read John's first epistle and see if you are skirting the edge of hate that he warns about there with how you regard your brother VPW, me, and other PFAL fans.
Mike, don't try to bs me.
For the last 40+ pages, you've had a debating stance and now that it looks like Saint Vic excuse for his own spiritual impotence will be deep sixed you hide behind, I'm just exploring.
What your actually doing is spouting Saint Vic's bull hoping you'll slip a few clunkers past the goalie.
If you were truly exploring, you would consider the criticisms presented and NOT label them invalid without providing a reason for why they were invalid.
Further, all exploration should start with two questions:
1. How do we know Saint Vic was a man of God?
2. How do we know Saint Vic worked for God?
If either of these results in a negative answer, then the whole theory is invalid.
Then for you to think I have a less valid relationship with Jesus than yours is so very much TWI Corps Pharasee that you ought to be given honorary Corps membership. You have become what you focus your hate on...
But it's totally okay for you to think we have a less valid relationship with Jesus, right? It shows by your constant attempts to teach us something. It's also hidden in than condecending attitude you have toward us. Silly me, I thought the love of God wasn't puffed up. Now where did I get that idea?
This was part of what I was talking about earlier.
For you to think that I have a "man-made 'budgeting' lens" in my line of sight means you have not read this thread carefully with understanding.
Then for you to think I have a less valid relationship with Jesus than yours is so very much TWI Corps Pharasee that you ought to be given honorary Corps membership. You have become what you focus your hate on...
You're right, I did it again. I can see where my comments have put you in a box of my own making based on my opinion of your relationship with Jesus. I sincerely apologize and you can call me on it if I should ever do it again.
Maybe I am about to rationalize my behavior here, but when I read about Jesus experiencing a "virtue drainage" and so forth when a woman was miraculously healed from 12 years of bleeding by touching his garment, or about there seemingly being a tight budget in other “spiritual commodities" when Jesus was in agony praying to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, it saddens me and I strike out at you. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I would say I am projecting onto you the feelings (both positive and negative) I had when I went from the Jesus I knew while in twi to the Jesus I know now since being on GSC.
Mike, I am slowly getting it into my head that I can speak about your viewpoints about scripture without judging your relationship with Jesus.
I really have nothing denigrating in the idea I am batting about.
I'm really not committed to it, but I do have a lot of curious scriptures that seem be asking to be paid attention to.
I think Paul's grace being sufficient for him and something flowing out of Jesus, who had infinite spirit, just screams the question to me "Why has God given us such details to include in our perspective of things?"
I really have nothing denigrating in the idea I am batting about.
I'm really not committed to it, but I do have a lot of curious scriptures that seem be asking to be paid attention to.
I think Paul's grace being sufficient for him and something flowing out of Jesus, who had infinite spirit, just screams the question to me "Why has God given us such details to include in our perspective of things?"
I think the answers are right in the verses as they are written. I'll share more tomorrow.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Rocky
This might be a good time to expand both your understanding of myth and the bible... and expand your imagination. Thank you for the question however. I don't hold either the bible OR mythology the same way I did as a fundamentalist wayfer.
Surely you've heard of the concept of paradox? Oh, and why is it important for you to keep track of what anyone wants to do or believe?
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Charity
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
1. Every word highlighted above are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with.
3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub
"And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby:
that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever.
Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy."
Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.
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Mike
I neglected to cite which version I was quoting there.
But I wouldn't add any words deliberately. It may have been one of those looser versions?
I don't remember where I pasted that from now. Sorry if I erred...
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T-Bone
maybe it's just me...but I find insinuations and harsh criticisms tend to confuse the message… I wonder if what was really meant was: to become skilled in the illusions of terror and disapproval, one must make all things wierwille / PFAL the guiding light of their life.
Again – this is probably just me – sometimes I read into things…and there's also a cascading effect from the surge of previous statements and besides the fact that additional suggestive talk with bitter undertones puts the double-whammy to send the wrong message…I get the feeling – - what this really means (and like I said, I could be wrong) is that those who have made all things wierwille / PFAL the guiding light of their life, skilled illusionists of terror and disapproval, find it extremely difficult to communicate with others who have not made all things wierwille / PFAL the guiding light of their life.
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Charity
Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Along with that verse, I think Ephesians 4:14a and 15 are also helpful verses to remember when discussing scripture in an open forum:
14a That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Cheers!
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Rocky
From the twi perspective, that verse 14a seemed like a warning to not let yourself go farther than they led you...
I don't know whether very many children received much of an education back in those days... but WE have LOTS of truth, facts, and wisdom available to us to grow up into. I'm thankful I wasn't afraid to explore beyond the twi boundaries of knowledge.
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Charity
twi definitely wanted us to have a mindset based on their way of thinking - I was thinking of these verses as describing a scriptural mindset (like just read what's written) but I see your point that everyone has the freedom to develop their own mindset for themselves.
Take care,
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OldSkool
I dunno Mike, Ive shown you reams of scripture on various topics you reject in favor of wierwille's trash plagairaized book and class: PFLAP. So who doesnt belive the Bible? Hopefully you are including yourself in that category.
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Charity
Good morning Mike, let me try it this way to clarify my point concerning what you had written about the woman touching the garment of Jesus.
Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(KJV)
1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words.
If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change. These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit.
WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead?
Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him? Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job?
These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it.
_____________________________________________________
The rest of my post went like this:
2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with.
3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub
"And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby:
that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever.
Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy."
Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.
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chockfull
So first of all I do not automatically accept all the Wierwillisms bound up in your explanation as they don’t make logical sense.
John 3:34 talks about in many Bible versions spirit without limit.
There are 2 ways to look at it. One is that Holy Spirit is like a cake recipe and God added one cup of flour in the OT but the NT gets 2 cups of flour.
With God not being a respecter of persons and me not being brainwashed by Great Pranciple charts there is another apparent interpretation even within Wierwille constraints.
Without limit. What was the limit? In the OT it was conditionally based where it could depart from a person.
In the NT we are born again of incorruptible seed. So it doesn’t depart. However Jesus refers to those with seared conscience who seemingly no longer see whatever messages upon the heart the Holy Spirit is trying to work there due to a deep thickening of the veins from a high fat Pharisee diet and practice.
Then we get into the real meat of the relationship with Christ and that draws a distinction. Those who magnify the “law of believing” and those who magnify the Christ relationship. The law of believing folks have to resort to smacking that dashboard Jesus and wondering why it doesn’t talk back.
The others have a prayer life actually.
So my conclusion comes back to the limits being introduced by the false doctrine of PFAL and limits imposed by cults that explain why their followers never win in life.
With an unlimited power source the self restricting budget experts who study collaterals for 20 years and no other free thought will predictably have a limited budget on how much God is able to help them.
Breaking free of the false doctrine however places the Christian in a place where the truth can set us free.
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chockfull
This record is a clear example of unlimited power. All discounted by the PFlappy expert as saying God was trying to have a budget discussion with Jesus.
Hilarious.
I mean exactly the opposite is true. Put yourself in the moment there. There is such unlimited power available that a woman is instantaneously healed by touching Jesus clothes and he felt the power (dunamis) like dynamite energize and cure the lady.
Then he turned to make it a teaching moment, not on budgeting by Ramsey but on believing the fulness of the truth to receive the fulness of the power.
I think we are bound by “budgeting thinking” more than we realize. And it’s a bondage thing not a freedom thing.
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Charity
Thank you so much for your post Chockfull. This is exactly what I meant in my post about Mike's reference to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. It just makes me wonder if he even realizes the greatness and heart of Jesus in the verses he quotes about him or if he only sees them through his man-made "budgeting" lens. The former speaks of a relational understanding of our Lord and the latter speaks of a purely intellectual-lala-land concept of Jesus in the Bible (imo).
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Nathan_Jr
What a disaster.
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Charity
Hi, After I read your post, I looked up the verse about having a seared conscience which was cool but I then noticed something else!
1 Tim 4:1-5
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times. So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread."
P.S. Thanks Chockfull for this post!
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T-Bone
I’ve found in a couple of study Bibles the latter times or later times can apply to both Paul and Timothy’s time as well as the future:
Both present and future: these “times” began in some sense with Jesus’ resurrection (some would say at Pentecost), which signaled the arrival of the age to come. Paul and Timothy were already living in these days (see 2 Tim.3:1), so Timothy must be ready to deal with some people abandoning the faith in that present time as well as in the future.
End of excerpt from page 2172 of I Timothy 4, NIV, Biblical Theology Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
And on page 2111 0f I Timothy 4, NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible it says
later times. Probably evokes OT passages about the promised future time of restoration (Isa 2:2; Mic 4:1), but applicable to the present era between the Messiah’s first and second comings (cf. Ac 2:17).
End of excerpt from NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
For those of us who like to have definitive answers – this touches on the rapture or gathering together doctrine vs the book of Revelation end times stuff – do we present day Christians go through that stuff or not?
I don’t know…In such dilemmas I adopt the attitude of be prepared either way…”whether in a hot mess or out of a hot mess I know not...just keep on with the keeping on" yeah that's my new motto.
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Mike
Ohhhh. I thought you meant that I added words to the verse quotation.
Hmmm.
Don't we all add words to the words of the Biblical text, when we discuss that text, after quoting the text?
When did the rule come down that we can only use words found within a verse, when discussing the verse?
Is that what you are doing? Condemning my expression of an idea because I use my own words to describe it and not the words that the scholars who translated the Biblical text used? Please write us an essay on your new rule here. I think we all violate it often.
*/*/*
I added words to show what I thought MAYBE the text was implying, or that other related texts could imply.
I capitalized the word MAYBE, because I got the impression that you think I am committed to this budget idea.... when I am not. Evidently you have not seen the many caveats I have made in this thread that say I am NOT committed to this idea at all... NONE!
This budget idea kept popping up over the decades as I read my Bible. It has nothing to do with the collaterals as you and others are stuck in a rut thinking.
For decades I would notice this idea popping up, make a small note, and throw the note in my paper folder, and dismiss the idea completely.... sometimes for months, sometimes for years... until it popped up again as I read my Bible.
To bad you didn't see this stand-offish attitude I have toward the budget idea.
You and the others are so caught up in condemning me (along with VPW) that you can't fix your minds on a new idea. You are stuck in many ruts an have almost no idea why I posted this thread.
I posted it to see the idea in daylight and focus for the first time, as I present it to the toughest audience I can imagine, to see if they can shoot down the idea, and see if I can defend it. This month is the first time I systematically explored this idea in my whole life. Do you see how wrong you were to think I got this from VPW and that I have been thinking this budget idea in all my doings since the 1970s ??? You (and the others here) just have no clue to what I think or what I am doing, and that convinces me you were scant on understanding in the past when VPW was alive.
*/*/*
Too bad most of my audience has not the focus of mind to get it off VPW condemnation, and get it off Mike condemnation, and get it on the idea of the budget... just temporarily, for exploratory discussion. Every now and then someone makes a good point on the topic of the idea or may latest post on the idea, and I am happy for that.
But for you to try and pry my conscience with statements like I had no heart for what Jesus went through in the Garden and how could I say such terrible things .... All I can say is you've stooped to become what you condemn.
You, along with others quickly stoop to try and use the same mind control on me that TWI used on you, if it will win you an argument before others. That is what happens when you focus on hate and dislike and disgust in a brother in Christ. You become what you look at, if you do it long enough and hard enough. Read John's first epistle and see if you are skirting the edge of hate that he warns about there with how you regard your brother VPW, me, and other PFAL fans.
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Mike
Actually, my focus is on why God was telling US about what Jesus felt by including it in the scriptures?
Why should we care what Jesus felt for that moment? What POSSIBLE doctrine can be gained from this portion of text?
I think it's a peek for us to see a tiny glimpse on the machinery at work behind the scenes, just like peeks in the past, like Daniel 9, and Paul's request for thorn relief, etc.
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Mike
This was part of what I was talking about earlier.
For you to think that I have a "man-made 'budgeting' lens" in my line of sight means you have not read this thread carefully with understanding.
Then for you to think I have a less valid relationship with Jesus than yours is so very much TWI Corps Pharasee that you ought to be given honorary Corps membership. You have become what you focus your hate on...
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So_crates
Mike, don't try to bs me.
For the last 40+ pages, you've had a debating stance and now that it looks like Saint Vic excuse for his own spiritual impotence will be deep sixed you hide behind, I'm just exploring.
What your actually doing is spouting Saint Vic's bull hoping you'll slip a few clunkers past the goalie.
If you were truly exploring, you would consider the criticisms presented and NOT label them invalid without providing a reason for why they were invalid.
Further, all exploration should start with two questions:
1. How do we know Saint Vic was a man of God?
2. How do we know Saint Vic worked for God?
If either of these results in a negative answer, then the whole theory is invalid.
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So_crates
But it's totally okay for you to think we have a less valid relationship with Jesus, right? It shows by your constant attempts to teach us something. It's also hidden in than condecending attitude you have toward us. Silly me, I thought the love of God wasn't puffed up. Now where did I get that idea?
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Charity
You're right, I did it again. I can see where my comments have put you in a box of my own making based on my opinion of your relationship with Jesus. I sincerely apologize and you can call me on it if I should ever do it again.
Maybe I am about to rationalize my behavior here, but when I read about Jesus experiencing a "virtue drainage" and so forth when a woman was miraculously healed from 12 years of bleeding by touching his garment, or about there seemingly being a tight budget in other “spiritual commodities" when Jesus was in agony praying to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, it saddens me and I strike out at you. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I would say I am projecting onto you the feelings (both positive and negative) I had when I went from the Jesus I knew while in twi to the Jesus I know now since being on GSC.
Mike, I am slowly getting it into my head that I can speak about your viewpoints about scripture without judging your relationship with Jesus.
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Mike
Thank you.
I really have nothing denigrating in the idea I am batting about.
I'm really not committed to it, but I do have a lot of curious scriptures that seem be asking to be paid attention to.
I think Paul's grace being sufficient for him and something flowing out of Jesus, who had infinite spirit, just screams the question to me "Why has God given us such details to include in our perspective of things?"
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Mike
I wish everyone here could just discuss the topics and not feel a need to constantly attack and degrade me. I should not be the topic.
When people have a hard time attacking my messages, then they turn to attack me, or belittle my thinking as imprisoned in VPW's ways.
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Charity
I think the answers are right in the verses as they are written. I'll share more tomorrow.
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