I find what you are saying intriguing. Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there?
I’m not at all suggesting the swapping of one self-anointed authority for another. I’m certainly not suggesting seeking anything — especially, seeking to beleeeve.
All I’m asking is, can we look at ourselves and see what we have done, what we are doing?
What can we see alone in the silent stillness? What can we hear when we stop jibber jabbering lo shonta carne asada? What can we see when we put aside all systems of beleeef and doctrine? And Is this even possible? What does the little child see without all the contamination of conceptual thought? How clearly she sees!
Is Truth trapped in a man’s doctrine? Are we inventing God by conforming God to a concept we have imagined? Is Love/Truth/God a concept we must figure out and construct and rightly divide?
Are we looking through a lens of prejudice brought on by indoctrination, conditioning? Are we seeking to confirm our bias? What are we seeking? To be right?
What does rebirth mean? Is it brought about by uttering a mantra? Is it something put together by thought and beleef? Or is it something else entirely?
In the beginning was Light. (Gen 1:3) In the beginning was the Word. (John 1:1)
When you see, who is doing the seeing? Is another seeing for you? If so, you haven’t seen anything at all, have you?
Books are written by men. Where does light come from?
I find what you are saying intriguing. Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there?
Knowledge is not Truth. Knowledge is not a source of Truth.
The words put together by man are not Truth. They may be mere approximations, mere pointers. But they may not be.
The email icon on your desktop is not the email. The word “tree” is not that.
What can we see alone in the silent stillness? What can we hear when we stop jibber jabbering lo shonta carne asada? What can we see when we put aside all systems of beleeef and doctrine? And Is this even possible? What does the little child see without all the contamination of conceptual thought? How clearly she sees!
I really want to understand what you are saying because I love your reference to the little child. So I'll take it one step at a time and ask if the following is along the lines of you are asking.
When a child with no previous knowledge of squirrels playing in a tree sees this happening for the first time, what does she make of it for herself?I agree there is a wonderful freedom for her to be able to do this.
The problem is that our brains are designed that any new information we take in through our five senses is assimilated by what we already know.This is based on the schema theory which I haven’t thought about for quite a while.So even for that child seeing squirrels chasing each other in a tree for the first time, her brain will automatically connect that new information to any schemas it already holds about animals or trees or whatever is similar to what she is presently seeing.If the schemas in her brain are a result of what others have told her about such things, then her present thoughts will not be purely her own.
This applies to all of us at all ages. Does this relate at all to what you are saying?
When a child with no previous knowledge of squirrels playing in a tree sees this happening for the first time, what does she make of it for herself?
Yes.
Does she not see this with a freshness, a purity of awareness, uncorrupted by expectation built upon past experience and indoctrination? Does she observe the squirrels and the tree as they actually are? Or does she observe them through a conceptual framework? Is she not observing with awe and wonder and love?
Does she want to control the squirrels? Does she want to “teach” them anything?
As she grows older, she may become a zoologist and acquire vast scientific knowledge of biology and nature, but will she ever see the squirrels as she did when she was a little child? Can she? Will she endeavor to find out?
Knowledge is not Truth. Knowledge is not a source of Truth.
The words put together by man are not Truth. They may be mere approximations, mere pointers. But they may not be.
The email icon on your desktop is not the email. The word “tree” is not that.
When I replied with "Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there," it was based on what you wrote in reply to the following statements of Mike's:
“What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. We all gotta master SOMETHING.”
I didn't word my question quite right but what I was asking is whether being open to all kinds of knowledge is preferable to Mike's need to have one "true" belief system which in his case is totally based on what one man taught (even though he says he studied if for himself).
From what you wrote above, I now see you are referring to all human knowledge not being a source of truth. Even if the Bible is the truth, the way any man reads and interprets it cannot be considered as truth. Is there such a thing as "truth" or even a need for "truth?" Is it just about our having the freedom to have our own thoughts concerning what we see and hear, but not about our thoughts being taken as a "source of truth?"
Does she not see this with a freshness, a purity of awareness, uncorrupted by expectation built upon past experience and indoctrination? Is she not observing with awe and wonder and love? Does she want to control the squirrels? Does she want to “teach” them anything?
As she grows older, she may become a zoologist and acquire vast scientific knowledge of biology and nature, but will she ever see the squirrels as she did when she was a little child? Can she? Will she endeavor to find out?
I think she can if she is willing and free to question her already-formed schemas existing in her head and when she does, it will bring her back to being that little child again - to have the same awe, wonder and love to learn and discover something new about what she had previously thought.
This is why your posts have struck a chord with me. Since coming to GSC and realizing the truth about the "absent Christ" doctrine which was filed away in my waybrain, it has become like being a child again in learning what the scriptures say about Christ. I want very much to hold onto the awe and wonder that comes with seeing something old in a new light especially when the new is so much greater than the old!
When I replied with "Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there," it was based on what you wrote in reply to the following statements of Mike's:
“What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. We all gotta master SOMETHING.”
I didn't word my question quite right but what I was asking is whether being open to all kinds of knowledge is preferable to Mike's need to have one "true" belief system which in his case is totally based on what one man taught (even though he says he studied if for himself).
From what you wrote above, I now see you are referring to all human knowledge not being a source of truth. Even if the Bible is the truth, the way any man reads and interprets it cannot be considered as truth. Is there such a thing as "truth" or even a need for "truth?" Is it just about our having the freedom to have our own thoughts concerning what we see and hear, but not about our thoughts being taken as a "source of truth?"
Is the expression of Truth, Love… God… limited to one language in one corner of the world in one sliver of time? If so, says who? Man or God?
Who is limiting God? The man with the past experiences and prejudices and conclusions upon which his doctrine of opinion is formed? Is this not a conceptual construct of thought? Is God a concept?
When it come to Truth, Love… God…
I think we think too much in an effort to make it fit like a hand in a glove. Because gloves are comfortable and secure and feel good.
I think she can if she is willing and free to question her already-formed schemas existing in her head and when she does, it will bring her back to being that little child again - to have the same awe, wonder and love to learn and discover something new about what she had previously thought.
This is why your posts have struck a chord with me. Since coming to GSC and realizing the truth about the "absent Christ" doctrine which was filed away in my waybrain, it has become like being a child again in learning what the scriptures say about Christ. I want very much to hold onto the awe and wonder that comes with seeing something old in a new light especially when the new is so much greater than the old!
It seems to me, this is all part of the rebirth, the renewing of the mind.
Is the expression of Truth, Love… God… limited to one language in one corner of the world in one sliver of time? If so, says who? Man or God?
Who is limiting God? The man with the past experiences and prejudices and conclusions upon which his doctrine of opinion is formed. Is this not a conceptual construct of thought? Is God a concept?
When it come to Truth, Love… God…
I think we think too much in an effort to make it fit like a hand in a glove. Because gloves are comfortable and secure and feel good.
I totally agree and it makes me think of how the spirit of truth is compared to the wind that blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes and whither it goes: (John 3:8)
I totally agree and it makes me think of how the spirit of truth is compared to the wind that blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes and whither it goes: (John 3:8)
I think I see why God is “on a budget”. Pretty much all of the discussion centers around the warm fuzzy idea of “having a package” that helps you live as a disciple or mature Christian.
This supposed “package” is Plaffy and int Plaffy and the secretary notes bound into 5 volumes plus the stolen RHST and PLAF books.
This “package” is supposed to help “new people” that we are working with and somehow without the “package” we are unable to minister to new Christians.
The reality is the “package” is the same kind of deal they sell in Scientology with the reprinted works of LRH. An all inclusive ticket to “enlightenment” of some kind called different things - going clear, true discipleship, being “an ambassador” a really prestigious title for a youngster.
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration. All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”. Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”. I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life.
The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.
I mean the whole gist of this conversation is a golden calf apologist trying to convince others that since the calf is simple and easy to understand you should worship the calf. Or the VP statue. Or the VP “package” which basically focuses the attention on the content and not the “package” of the author himself as that is a fail.
I think I see why God is “on a budget”. Pretty much all of the discussion centers around the warm fuzzy idea of “having a package” that helps you live as a disciple or mature Christian.
This supposed “package” is Plaffy and int Plaffy and the secretary notes bound into 5 volumes plus the stolen RHST and PLAF books.
This “package” is supposed to help “new people” that we are working with and somehow without the “package” we are unable to minister to new Christians.
The reality is the “package” is the same kind of deal they sell in Scientology with the reprinted works of LRH. An all inclusive ticket to “enlightenment” of some kind called different things - going clear, true discipleship, being “an ambassador” a really prestigious title for a youngster.
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration. All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”. Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”. I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life.
The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.
I mean the whole gist of this conversation is a golden calf apologist trying to convince others that since the calf is simple and easy to understand you should worship the calf. Or the VP statue. Or the VP “package” which basically focuses the attention on the content and not the “package” of the author himself as that is a fail.
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration.
The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.
Love your post Chockfull. Followers of twi are indoctrinated to distrust, condemn and even despise what Christianity has to offer outside their little isolated world. I like that you mentioned free thought, prayer and collaboration because any group that discourages or opposes these is not safe to be around.
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration. All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”. Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”. I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life.
Great post, Chockfull !!!!
Since I got rid of the exclusive and snooty attitude encouraged by The Way International, I’ve come to appreciate the rich variety of resources and fellowship that’s available – makes me think of Ephesians 4:16 :
New International Version From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
New Living Translation He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.
English Standard Version from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
New King James Version from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
New American Standard Bible from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Amplified Bible From Him the whole body [the church, in all its various parts], joined and knitted firmly together by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in [unselfish] love.
Christian Standard Bible From him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, promotes the growth of the body for building itself up in love by the proper working of each individual part.
NET Bible From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love.
New Revised Standard Version from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s
Ephesians 4:16 Greek Interlinear(you’re on your own with this one – it does not copy and paste well…but it is worth it to click on this link to check out the Greek)
Like Yogi Berra always used to say it’s like Ephesians 4:16 all over again.
From Emotional Inheritance by Galit Atlas PhD, first two paragraphs of the last chapter (page 263):
GSC can be, and is for some, a part of journeys to process some of our emotional inheritance. Then there's Mike, stuck in a purgatory of his own making.
The book Emotional Inheritance finally became available for pickup at my library. I might bring up some ideas for discussion under the Books forum.
Quote:Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
The book of Job has been brought up on this thread. I am surprised that in the milieu of questions and God-trivializing guess work that little or no attention had been given to Job 38, Job 39 ,Job 40 , and Job 41 . These hyperlinks are to the NIV version on Bible Hub’s website. It’s a convenient website to see other versions, biblical lexicons, interlinear text, and commentaries.
What’s noteworthy about those chapters is that this is when Yahweh finally spoke to Job – and surprisingly He didn’t answer any of Job’s questions!
by the way, did you know The name Yahweh (yah-WEH) occurs more than 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It appears in every book but Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. As the sacred, personal name of Israel's God, it was eventually spoken aloud only by priests worshiping in the Jerusalem temple.
After the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the name was not pronounced. Adonay was substituted for Yahweh whenever it appeared in the biblical text. Because of this, the correct pronunciation of this name was eventually lost. English editions of the Bible usually translate Adonay as "Lord" and Yahweh as "LORD."
Yahweh is the name that is most closely linked to God's redeeming acts in the history of his chosen people. We know God because of what he has done. When you pray to Yahweh, remember that he is the same God who draws near to save you from the tyranny of sin just as he saved his people from tyrannical slavery in Egypt.
Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.
It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.
There is no criterion higher than God Himself by which to judge. We are in no position to demote God Almighty! [during your free timeyou might enjoy an interesting article:The Moral Order of the World Points to God | Christianity Today] …and there’s this: The natural order, therefore, would be defined as a created order in which man would be directed to an end or destiny that is strictly proportionate to his capacities, powers, and exigencies [needs] from: Natural Order | Encyclopedia.com
With all that in mind, as you read the following chapters of Job, you might consider how silly it is to ask Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
Job 38 to 41
1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
With all that in mind, as you read the following chapters of Job, you might consider how silly it is to ask Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
What is silly would be asking "Is God is limited by a budget?"
You are mistaken if you think that is what I am asking here.
Or maybe you are deliberately trying to distort my question here?
I am NOT asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" because that would mean there is something bigger than God that imposes the budget.
*/*/*
What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?" and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one.
I am asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm.
This method really does limit the devil much more than God, because in His foreknowledge God makes this budget just the right size for Him to get His work done, and deny the devil the same. This is a subtle point you may be missing.
God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time.It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him.
*/*/*
I really liked your analysis of Job, and made a copy of it. I haven’t read all of it yet, but what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order.
I also think it is a little ironic how you reject my budget idea, that it may be a tiny glimpse into God’s Moral Order.Youcriticize my idea as one having understanding of the genuine Moral Order of God, and mine is counterfeit by your authoritative comparison.
I am asking if the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing.
I think others have tried to explain this same glimpse as being like God sense of being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.At best, both my budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given, as to why we live in a world that is pretty much run by the devil right now, but soon “…Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”
Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?...
…At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders…
…I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way.I am sure many tangential topics will be included.
End of excerpts from Mike’s starter post
~ ~ ~ ~
5 hours ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?" and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one.
2.budget = as a noun - an estimate of income and expenditure for a set period of time; as a verb - allow or provide a particular amount of money in a budget.
We can guess till the cows jump over the collaterals. If you want to hazard a plausible guess within the confines of PFAL, how about God put a cap on how much the devil could believe in the law of believing.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm.
This method really does limit the devil much more than God, because in His foreknowledge God makes this budget just the right size for Him to get His work done, and deny the devil the same. This is a subtle point you may be missing.
God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time.It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him.
3.you bore me with your redefinitions, slippery slopes, and false analogies. Face up to the fact this post represents your typical strategy of backpedaling (recanting incognito) and waffling in an attempt to get the square peg to fit in the round hole. One suggestion: try using belt sander on peg or ream out the hole to make it bigger.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
I really liked your analysis of Job, and made a copy of it. I haven’t read all of it yet, but what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order.
4.reread my post, paying special attention to the 6th, 7th, and 8th paragraphs down from the top – and don’t forget to click on the hyperlinks in those paragraphs…what you should have realized is the complementary or corresponding relationship of the natural order and moral order – in other words it’s not a dichotomy – a contrast – but rather one reveals stuff about the other – and both harmonizeto inform us about God’s attributes and character.
Mike said: "what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order"
If God's natural order and moral order is beyond us - then Paul's argument in Romans 1 saying fallen humankind are without excuse would not make sense! It is precisely because all that is well within humankind's ability to mentally grasp His divine order.
~ ~ ~ ~
Here for your convenience is what I said:
“Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.
It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.”
I also think it is a little ironic how you reject my budget idea, that it may be a tiny glimpse into God’s Moral Order.Youcriticize my idea as one having understanding of the genuine Moral Order of God, and mine is counterfeit by your authoritative comparison.
I am asking if the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing.
5.I reject your budget idea because there’s no scriptural basis for it. Just because YOU think your silly theory gives you a glimpse into God’s Moral Order does not make it so.
So, to answer your question do the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing? The answer is NO.
5 hours ago, Mike said:
I think others have tried to explain this same glimpse as being like God sense of being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.At best, both my budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given, as to why we live in a world that is pretty much run by the devil right now, but soon “…Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”
6.It might help if you could cite other sources (providing hyperlinks or at least specifics, documentation where I could see you’re not making this up) who have tried to explain this supposed glimpse of God being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.
You claim your budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given – so again I ask WHERE have these glimpses been given?
Feel free to reiterate your mischaracterization of biblical narratives (recalling your mishmash of Job 1 & 2), which was false and misleading to begin with – and please stay on point if you want to argue over the culturalisms in Job 1 & 2 – because reinterpreting ancient narratives via one’s modern myopic point of view is absurd.
Edited by T-Bone editing posts one letter at a time
What is silly would be asking "Is God is limited by a budget?"
You are mistaken if you think that is what I am asking here.
Or maybe you are deliberately trying to distort my question here?
I am NOT asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" because that would mean there is something bigger than God that imposes the budget.
*/*/*
What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?" and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one.
I am asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm.
What you actually seem to be doing is constructing MYTH. There is no rational or biblical basis for either question as I see it. I commend your imagination but not your communications skills or biblical understanding or rational analysis skills, or even your self-awareness.
The only basis for what you propose is what you conjure between your ears.
If you (or any other reader on this thread were to) want to understand the history and role of MYTH over the course of humankind's dominion over the earth, I recommend A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong.
Ms Armstrong is a former Catholic nun and writes exquisitely about human understanding of God (and gods) and spiritual ideas through the millennia.
In a prologue to A Short History..., "Myths are universal and timeless stories that reflect and shape our lives--they explore our desires, our fears, our longings, and provide narratives that remind us what it means to be human."
Myth predates and co-exists with Hebrew, Islam, and Christian understanding of life. My life experience and travels (abroad) exposed me to Catholic traditions which were adopted by various local communities and incorporated into church practice by Catholic practitioners.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Nathan_Jr
I’m not at all suggesting the swapping of one self-anointed authority for another. I’m certainly not suggesting seeking anything — especially, seeking to beleeeve.
All I’m asking is, can we look at ourselves and see what we have done, what we are doing?
What can we see alone in the silent stillness? What can we hear when we stop jibber jabbering lo shonta carne asada? What can we see when we put aside all systems of beleeef and doctrine? And Is this even possible? What does the little child see without all the contamination of conceptual thought? How clearly she sees!
Is Truth trapped in a man’s doctrine? Are we inventing God by conforming God to a concept we have imagined? Is Love/Truth/God a concept we must figure out and construct and rightly divide?
Are we looking through a lens of prejudice brought on by indoctrination, conditioning? Are we seeking to confirm our bias? What are we seeking? To be right?
What does rebirth mean? Is it brought about by uttering a mantra? Is it something put together by thought and beleef? Or is it something else entirely?
In the beginning was Light. (Gen 1:3) In the beginning was the Word. (John 1:1)
When you see, who is doing the seeing? Is another seeing for you? If so, you haven’t seen anything at all, have you?
Books are written by men. Where does light come from?
Who or what will light your path?
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Nathan_Jr
Knowledge is not Truth. Knowledge is not a source of Truth.
The words put together by man are not Truth. They may be mere approximations, mere pointers. But they may not be.
The email icon on your desktop is not the email. The word “tree” is not that.
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Charity
I really want to understand what you are saying because I love your reference to the little child. So I'll take it one step at a time and ask if the following is along the lines of you are asking.
When a child with no previous knowledge of squirrels playing in a tree sees this happening for the first time, what does she make of it for herself? I agree there is a wonderful freedom for her to be able to do this.
http://web.mit.edu/pankin/www/Schema_Theory_and_Concept_Formation.pdf
The problem is that our brains are designed that any new information we take in through our five senses is assimilated by what we already know. This is based on the schema theory which I haven’t thought about for quite a while. So even for that child seeing squirrels chasing each other in a tree for the first time, her brain will automatically connect that new information to any schemas it already holds about animals or trees or whatever is similar to what she is presently seeing. If the schemas in her brain are a result of what others have told her about such things, then her present thoughts will not be purely her own.
This applies to all of us at all ages. Does this relate at all to what you are saying?
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Nathan_Jr
Yes.
Does she not see this with a freshness, a purity of awareness, uncorrupted by expectation built upon past experience and indoctrination? Does she observe the squirrels and the tree as they actually are? Or does she observe them through a conceptual framework? Is she not observing with awe and wonder and love?
Does she want to control the squirrels? Does she want to “teach” them anything?
As she grows older, she may become a zoologist and acquire vast scientific knowledge of biology and nature, but will she ever see the squirrels as she did when she was a little child? Can she? Will she endeavor to find out?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Charity
When I replied with "Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there," it was based on what you wrote in reply to the following statements of Mike's:
“What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. We all gotta master SOMETHING.”
I didn't word my question quite right but what I was asking is whether being open to all kinds of knowledge is preferable to Mike's need to have one "true" belief system which in his case is totally based on what one man taught (even though he says he studied if for himself).
From what you wrote above, I now see you are referring to all human knowledge not being a source of truth. Even if the Bible is the truth, the way any man reads and interprets it cannot be considered as truth. Is there such a thing as "truth" or even a need for "truth?" Is it just about our having the freedom to have our own thoughts concerning what we see and hear, but not about our thoughts being taken as a "source of truth?"
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Charity
I think she can if she is willing and free to question her already-formed schemas existing in her head and when she does, it will bring her back to being that little child again - to have the same awe, wonder and love to learn and discover something new about what she had previously thought.
This is why your posts have struck a chord with me. Since coming to GSC and realizing the truth about the "absent Christ" doctrine which was filed away in my waybrain, it has become like being a child again in learning what the scriptures say about Christ. I want very much to hold onto the awe and wonder that comes with seeing something old in a new light especially when the new is so much greater than the old!
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Nathan_Jr
Is the expression of Truth, Love… God… limited to one language in one corner of the world in one sliver of time? If so, says who? Man or God?
Who is limiting God? The man with the past experiences and prejudices and conclusions upon which his doctrine of opinion is formed? Is this not a conceptual construct of thought? Is God a concept?
When it come to Truth, Love… God…
I think we think too much in an effort to make it fit like a hand in a glove. Because gloves are comfortable and secure and feel good.
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Nathan_Jr
It seems to me, this is all part of the rebirth, the renewing of the mind.
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Charity
I totally agree and it makes me think of how the spirit of truth is compared to the wind that blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes and whither it goes: (John 3:8)
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Nathan_Jr
Amen.
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Charity
It is and just as the new birth is through the work of the holy spirit so is our renewal - neither is through any work of our own.
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Nathan_Jr
It is beyond beleeef.
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chockfull
I think I see why God is “on a budget”. Pretty much all of the discussion centers around the warm fuzzy idea of “having a package” that helps you live as a disciple or mature Christian.
This supposed “package” is Plaffy and int Plaffy and the secretary notes bound into 5 volumes plus the stolen RHST and PLAF books.
This “package” is supposed to help “new people” that we are working with and somehow without the “package” we are unable to minister to new Christians.
The reality is the “package” is the same kind of deal they sell in Scientology with the reprinted works of LRH. An all inclusive ticket to “enlightenment” of some kind called different things - going clear, true discipleship, being “an ambassador” a really prestigious title for a youngster.
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration. All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”. Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”. I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life.
The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.
I mean the whole gist of this conversation is a golden calf apologist trying to convince others that since the calf is simple and easy to understand you should worship the calf. Or the VP statue. Or the VP “package” which basically focuses the attention on the content and not the “package” of the author himself as that is a fail.
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OldSkool
Well said, sir.
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Charity
Love your post Chockfull. Followers of twi are indoctrinated to distrust, condemn and even despise what Christianity has to offer outside their little isolated world. I like that you mentioned free thought, prayer and collaboration because any group that discourages or opposes these is not safe to be around.
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T-Bone
Great post, Chockfull !!!!
Since I got rid of the exclusive and snooty attitude encouraged by The Way International, I’ve come to appreciate the rich variety of resources and fellowship that’s available – makes me think of Ephesians 4:16 :
New International Version
From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
New Living Translation
He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.
English Standard Version
from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
New King James Version
from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
New American Standard Bible
from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Amplified Bible
From Him the whole body [the church, in all its various parts], joined and knitted firmly together by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in [unselfish] love.
Christian Standard Bible
From him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, promotes the growth of the body for building itself up in love by the proper working of each individual part.
NET Bible
From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love.
New Revised Standard Version
from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s
Ephesians 4:16 Greek Interlinear (you’re on your own with this one – it does not copy and paste well…but it is worth it to click on this link to check out the Greek)
Like Yogi Berra always used to say it’s like Ephesians 4:16 all over again.
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Charity
The book Emotional Inheritance finally became available for pickup at my library. I might bring up some ideas for discussion under the Books forum.
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Rocky
Books forum?
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Rocky
Might you possibly have meant the thread in the About the Way forum on Shedding Waybrain: Antifragility?
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T-Bone
Quote: Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
The book of Job has been brought up on this thread. I am surprised that in the milieu of questions and God-trivializing guess work that little or no attention had been given to Job 38 , Job 39 , Job 40 , and Job 41 . These hyperlinks are to the NIV version on Bible Hub’s website. It’s a convenient website to see other versions, biblical lexicons, interlinear text, and commentaries.
What’s noteworthy about those chapters is that this is when Yahweh finally spoke to Job – and surprisingly He didn’t answer any of Job’s questions!
by the way, did you know The name Yahweh (yah-WEH) occurs more than 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It appears in every book but Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. As the sacred, personal name of Israel's God, it was eventually spoken aloud only by priests worshiping in the Jerusalem temple.
After the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the name was not pronounced. Adonay was substituted for Yahweh whenever it appeared in the biblical text. Because of this, the correct pronunciation of this name was eventually lost. English editions of the Bible usually translate Adonay as "Lord" and Yahweh as "LORD."
Yahweh is the name that is most closely linked to God's redeeming acts in the history of his chosen people. We know God because of what he has done. When you pray to Yahweh, remember that he is the same God who draws near to save you from the tyranny of sin just as he saved his people from tyrannical slavery in Egypt.
From: What "Yahweh" Means in the Bible - God's Name Explained (biblestudytools.com)
Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.
It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.
There is no criterion higher than God Himself by which to judge. We are in no position to demote God Almighty! [during your free time
you might enjoy an interesting article: The Moral Order of the World Points to God | Christianity Today ] …and there’s this: The natural order, therefore, would be defined as a created order in which man would be directed to an end or destiny that is strictly proportionate to his capacities, powers, and exigencies [needs] from: Natural Order | Encyclopedia.com
With all that in mind, as you read the following chapters of Job, you might consider how silly it is to ask Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?
Job 38 to 41
1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?
8“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12“Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19“What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31“Can you bind the chains b of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons c
or lead out the Bear d with its cubs?
33Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s e dominion over the earth?
34“Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36Who gives the ibis wisdom f
or gives the rooster understanding? g
37Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39“Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
Job 38 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
1“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5“Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9“Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13“The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19“Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26“Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
Job 39 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
1The Lord said to Job:
2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3Then Job answered the Lord:
4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15“Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
Job 40 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
1“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12“I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor a ?
14Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15Its back has b rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”
Job 41 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
That’s all for now, Grease Spotters
Love and peace!
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Mike
What is silly would be asking "Is God is limited by a budget?"
You are mistaken if you think that is what I am asking here.
Or maybe you are deliberately trying to distort my question here?
I am NOT asking "Is God is limited by a budget?" because that would mean there is something bigger than God that imposes the budget.
*/*/*
What I am asking is "Does God impose a budget on the devil?" and then I go on with further detail to include within my budget question my guess that the method God uses is a universal budgetary one.
I am asking if the method He uses in setting up His moral order here, is to impose a general budgetary limitation on ALL spiritual interactions upon the physical realm.
This method really does limit the devil much more than God, because in His foreknowledge God makes this budget just the right size for Him to get His work done, and deny the devil the same. This is a subtle point you may be missing.
God is not limited by His budget; He squeaks by just right and just in time every time. It is the devil who miscalculates his budget and loses when confronting God and His people who are walking with Him.
*/*/*
I really liked your analysis of Job, and made a copy of it. I haven’t read all of it yet, but what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order.
I also think it is a little ironic how you reject my budget idea, that it may be a tiny glimpse into God’s Moral Order. You criticize my idea as one having understanding of the genuine Moral Order of God, and mine is counterfeit by your authoritative comparison.
I am asking if the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing.
I think others have tried to explain this same glimpse as being like God sense of being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense. At best, both my budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given, as to why we live in a world that is pretty much run by the devil right now, but soon “…Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.”
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T-Bone
1.My opening quote is from YOUR starter post for this thread – so quit trying to move the goalposts!
here are a few other excerpts from Mike’s starter post Monday February 27th, 2023, 9:12 PM
God’s Budget and Double Doors
On the Scarcity of Miracles…
Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?...
…At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders…
…I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way. I am sure many tangential topics will be included.
End of excerpts from Mike’s starter post
~ ~ ~ ~
2.budget = as a noun - an estimate of income and expenditure for a set period of time; as a verb - allow or provide a particular amount of money in a budget.
We can guess till the cows jump over the collaterals. If you want to hazard a plausible guess within the confines of PFAL, how about God put a cap on how much the devil could believe in the law of believing.
3.you bore me with your redefinitions, slippery slopes, and false analogies. Face up to the fact this post represents your typical strategy of backpedaling (recanting incognito) and waffling in an attempt to get the square peg to fit in the round hole. One suggestion: try using belt sander on peg or ream out the hole to make it bigger.
4.reread my post, paying special attention to the 6th, 7th, and 8th paragraphs down from the top – and don’t forget to click on the hyperlinks in those paragraphs…what you should have realized is the complementary or corresponding relationship of the natural order and moral order – in other words it’s not a dichotomy – a contrast – but rather one reveals stuff about the other – and both harmonize to inform us about God’s attributes and character.
Mike said: "what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order"
If God's natural order and moral order is beyond us - then Paul's argument in Romans 1 saying fallen humankind are without excuse would not make sense! It is precisely because all that is well within humankind's ability to mentally grasp His divine order.
~ ~ ~ ~
Here for your convenience is what I said:
“Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order.
It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.”
End of quoting my Saturday 4/15/2023 11:45 PM post
5. I reject your budget idea because there’s no scriptural basis for it. Just because YOU think your silly theory gives you a glimpse into God’s Moral Order does not make it so.
So, to answer your question do the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing? The answer is NO.
6.It might help if you could cite other sources (providing hyperlinks or at least specifics, documentation where I could see you’re not making this up
) who have tried to explain this supposed glimpse of God being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense.
You claim your budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given – so again I ask WHERE have these glimpses been given?
Feel free to reiterate your mischaracterization of biblical narratives (recalling your mishmash of Job 1 & 2), which was false and misleading to begin with – and please stay on point if you want to argue over the culturalisms in Job 1 & 2 – because reinterpreting ancient narratives via one’s modern myopic point of view is absurd.
Edited by T-Boneediting posts one letter at a time
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Rocky
What you actually seem to be doing is constructing MYTH. There is no rational or biblical basis for either question as I see it. I commend your imagination but not your communications skills or biblical understanding or rational analysis skills, or even your self-awareness.
The only basis for what you propose is what you conjure between your ears.
If you (or any other reader on this thread were to) want to understand the history and role of MYTH over the course of humankind's dominion over the earth, I recommend A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong.
Ms Armstrong is a former Catholic nun and writes exquisitely about human understanding of God (and gods) and spiritual ideas through the millennia.
In a prologue to A Short History..., "Myths are universal and timeless stories that reflect and shape our lives--they explore our desires, our fears, our longings, and provide narratives that remind us what it means to be human."
Myth predates and co-exists with Hebrew, Islam, and Christian understanding of life. My life experience and travels (abroad) exposed me to Catholic traditions which were adopted by various local communities and incorporated into church practice by Catholic practitioners.
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Nathan_Jr
Suddenly, I am reminded of a video I recently posted on another thread.
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