I don't see it a big deal that our perceptions be all that accurate. What we get mostly from perceptions are how can we move in tight quarters without bumping our head. Perceptions are for survival, and they work just fine for that.
The ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe, and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time.
perceptions are not just for navigating the physical world. Besides being aware of something through the senses, it also involves mental processing “ what does that STOP sign mean?… what does that red traffic light mean?…what does all the debris, trees, vehicles, fences, and roofs blowing around mean?”
Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our ‘surroundings’ (physical and conceptual - - beliefs - the mental map of how the world works) and what they mean…fyi - they’re not always accurate.
Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others.
Beliefs / perceptions may help in basic survival - but your argument is too vague in my opinion. Con artists are adept at misrepresentation - like giving a false or misleading account of some event or the nature of something. Buying into a cult-leader’s bull$hit is not what I call surviving. BUT escaping a harmful and controlling cult and developing cognitive skills would help one become a cult-survivor.
Harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like wierwille twist Scripture and logic to MANIPULATE and RESTRICT our choices. In that regard I might in a limited sense agree in reference to the PFAL Kool-Aid with your statement “the ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe”. That is the ‘great’ trick wierwille pulls in PFAL with his screwy misinterpretation of II Peter 1:20 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
Though the verse is talking about the ORIGIN of Scripture, wierwille taught it had to do with the interpretation of Scripture - and in his delusional absolute thinking he said verse 20 meant there was no interpretation possible or Scripture must interpret itself.
Thus wierwille limited our options - in that sense for all practical purposes we don’t have as much a freedom of choice because wierwille excluded the choices of appropriate hermeneutics and legitimate scholarly resources.
True freedom is making an informed choice - when all options are on the table - and NOT being tricked by being given only two choices - when there are actually more than 2 options available!
As far as the rest of your post:
“and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time”. Your statementis confusing and doesn’t seem to fit a theory of free will…maybe you’re thinking of cognitive skills. I think the typical PFAL grad lets their cognitive skills atrophy and instead learns to trust wierwille’s opinions and influence…this is all just my opinions of course…have a nice day.
Exactly. As long as we master the collaterals, everything will be fine.
Which brings up a good point.
We all gotta master SOMETHING.
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
I follow Jesus Christ. He's the way to God...now ain't that simple? No false prophets needed.
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
Part of the hocus pocus snake oil sales is the idea of “mastering” fundamentals in spiritual truth via censoring yourself from anything that wasn’t printed by Vic and American Christian Press.
No we don’t all have to “master” something. For example, Vic never “mastered” any of the original Biblical languages before teaching them.
Few to none of the teachers in TWI have “masters” degrees in anything. Those that do are in different fields than Biblical or language studies.
The blind leading the blind leads to a “mastery” of falling in ditches. That is about where TWI faith is at.
But you want to de focus on you and talk about me so you can hide.
I have found that putting your trust in man will leave you disappointed. Except for the one perfect man - trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will leave you delighted.
I have also found that focusing on putting my trust in the works of man leave you disappointed. But focusing on the works of Christ leave you delighted.
All of your questions seem to be framed at getting to Plaffy definitions. Like the Bible as your only rule of faith and practice and other such sound bites. Vic’s self interpreted Word is certainly not my rule of faith and practice. It is too flawed. It has BS cult interpretations of “household and family” of God leading to isolation from the full body of Christ.
Who is doing a good job of guiding Gods people today would be my Lord and Savior at the right hand of the Father. He directs and guides via the Spirit to those members of His body throughout the world in various forms.
But those that claim to be “the only ones” will be the only ones sitting in line while every other Christian is recognized first.
Now let’s turn the focus back to you. Why do you continue to converse only in terms of Plaffy bondage? Why can’t you see beyond it?
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
49 minutes ago, Mike said:
And exactly how do you do that?
Does he come and instruct you?
Did he leave you with a book?
Or more likely, do you wing it and assume anything you like in your head is what Jesus likes too?
47 minutes ago, Mike said:
Are you afraid to open up for all to see how little you have going on?
I think your personal believes ARE the issue here. You are afraid to show your empty hand.
Mike seems to have ‘mastered’ bluffing, dodging and derailing. Mind you I use the term “mastered” loosely - it’s not that Mike shows great skill and proficiency in the inept way he bluffs , dodges and derails - perhaps it’s an unholy adoration of wierwille that has mastered him - like a taskmaster that drives him to mindlessly defend his idol.
Mike said: Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
That’s one hell of a projection! Way to go, Mike!
Weird how Mike projects his own problems onto others - - assuming everyone needs a guide to replace the absent wierwille.
Generally the issue with Mike vs Grease Spotters is Mike’s wierwille-centric belief system vs any other belief system that does NOT idolize wierwille.
Sad really..Mike has spent 50 years rifling through wierwilles doctrinal trash and after all that time Mike still doesn't know Jesus Christ...the focal point of the ages and the center piece of Christianity. Mike whoever has the son has the father...if u don't have the son you don't have the father...
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
1. What evidence do I have that Saint Vic was a MOG?
2. What evidence do I have Saint Vic was doing God's will?
And don't point to the collaterals. That's a circular argument.
I point to the collaterals, because they round off my argument.
I point to what I got from the collaterals in the 1970s, and how they served me a clear window into the Bible. I still use that window to see clearly.
I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge. You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
There's a bitterness torch? Why hasn't someone told me?
It's because you have not asked them.
Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll?
Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. Then, if they speak up about the positives, they are shot down with barrages of bitterness. Either that, or they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge. You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
It seems to me, it's you who has dodged the challenge to look beyond to see more clearly. Does the positive stuff, as scant as it was, negate the negative stuff? Nevermind, I'm pretty sure in your mind it does.
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
Typical wierwille bullying tactic...try and shame people for telling the truth. Bitterness torch = truth.
I follow Christ's lead and whichever direction that takes is where I go. 50 years and your still lost.
Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll?
Why would I need to ask anyone? I'm a big boy now and expected to form my own opinions.
I point to the collaterals, because they round off my argument
This shows how your not to be trusted. I asked you what proof you had that Saint Vic was a MOG? You responded the collaterals. I responded, So? The devil can quote scripture.
Now you're trying to palm then off as rounding off your argument. The two things are poles apart
2 minutes ago, Mike said:
I point to what I got from the collaterals in the 1970s, and how they served me a clear window into the Bible. I still use that window to see clearly.
PLAF doesn't provide a window, it provides a carnival mirror, distorted by Saint Vic's desire to make his vices biblically alright in the eyes of God.
2 minutes ago, Mike said:
I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge.
Like you dodged the two suppositions challenge?
2 minutes ago, Mike said:
You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
No, a know a fake prophet produced fake prophecies
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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T-Bone
perceptions are not just for navigating the physical world. Besides being aware of something through the senses, it also involves mental processing “ what does that STOP sign mean?… what does that red traffic light mean?…what does all the debris, trees, vehicles, fences, and roofs blowing around mean?”
Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our ‘surroundings’ (physical and conceptual - - beliefs - the mental map of how the world works) and what they mean…fyi - they’re not always accurate.
Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others.
Beliefs / perceptions may help in basic survival - but your argument is too vague in my opinion. Con artists are adept at misrepresentation - like giving a false or misleading account of some event or the nature of something. Buying into a cult-leader’s bull$hit is not what I call surviving. BUT escaping a harmful and controlling cult and developing cognitive skills would help one become a cult-survivor.
Harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like wierwille twist Scripture and logic to MANIPULATE and RESTRICT our choices. In that regard I might in a limited sense agree in reference to the PFAL Kool-Aid with your statement “the ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe”. That is the ‘great’ trick wierwille pulls in PFAL with his screwy misinterpretation of II Peter 1:20 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
Though the verse is talking about the ORIGIN of Scripture, wierwille taught it had to do with the interpretation of Scripture - and in his delusional absolute thinking he said verse 20 meant there was no interpretation possible or Scripture must interpret itself.
Thus wierwille limited our options - in that sense for all practical purposes we don’t have as much a freedom of choice because wierwille excluded the choices of appropriate hermeneutics and legitimate scholarly resources.
True freedom is making an informed choice - when all options are on the table - and NOT being tricked by being given only two choices - when there are actually more than 2 options available!
As far as the rest of your post:
“and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time”. Your statement is confusing and doesn’t seem to fit a theory of free will…maybe you’re thinking of cognitive skills. I think the typical PFAL grad lets their cognitive skills atrophy and instead learns to trust wierwille’s opinions and influence…this is all just my opinions of course…have a nice day.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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waysider
Exactly. As long as we master the collaterals, everything will be fine.
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OldSkool
Ohh...and Dr's last teaching...gotta master that too...geez I think you guys have forgotten what Dr said.....I dunno...I just dont get it...
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waysider
That's Ok, you probably just weren't paying attention.
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Mike
Which brings up a good point.
We all gotta master SOMETHING.
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
The question is WHAT?
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
If you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
*/*/*
On a slightly different angle, is there any one person in the world (besides yourself) that you trust? We all know you don't trust VPW.
But who DO you trust? Who is doing a good job at guiding God's people today? Do you see yourself in that role?
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OldSkool
I follow Jesus Christ. He's the way to God...now ain't that simple? No false prophets needed.
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waysider
Strawman.
My personal beliefs are not the issue here.
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Mike
And exactly how do you do that?
Does he come and instruct you?
Did he leave you with a book?
Or more likely, do you wing it and assume anything you like in your head is what Jesus likes too?
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Mike
Are you afraid to open up for all to see how little you have going on?
I think your personal believes ARE the issue here. You are afraid to show your empty hand.
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waysider
Ya know, for a guy who doesn't even know me, you sure seem to think you know a lot about me.
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OldSkool
If you don't know them it shows the deficiency of wierwilles theology. But u use his name as if u know him.
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waysider
Well, duh.
You ask:
"The Teacher"
P.O. Box 347
Nude Knockoff, Ahia.
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chockfull
Part of the hocus pocus snake oil sales is the idea of “mastering” fundamentals in spiritual truth via censoring yourself from anything that wasn’t printed by Vic and American Christian Press.
No we don’t all have to “master” something. For example, Vic never “mastered” any of the original Biblical languages before teaching them.
Few to none of the teachers in TWI have “masters” degrees in anything. Those that do are in different fields than Biblical or language studies.
The blind leading the blind leads to a “mastery” of falling in ditches. That is about where TWI faith is at.
But you want to de focus on you and talk about me so you can hide.
I have found that putting your trust in man will leave you disappointed. Except for the one perfect man - trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will leave you delighted.
I have also found that focusing on putting my trust in the works of man leave you disappointed. But focusing on the works of Christ leave you delighted.
All of your questions seem to be framed at getting to Plaffy definitions. Like the Bible as your only rule of faith and practice and other such sound bites. Vic’s self interpreted Word is certainly not my rule of faith and practice. It is too flawed. It has BS cult interpretations of “household and family” of God leading to isolation from the full body of Christ.
Who is doing a good job of guiding Gods people today would be my Lord and Savior at the right hand of the Father. He directs and guides via the Spirit to those members of His body throughout the world in various forms.
But those that claim to be “the only ones” will be the only ones sitting in line while every other Christian is recognized first.
Now let’s turn the focus back to you. Why do you continue to converse only in terms of Plaffy bondage? Why can’t you see beyond it?
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T-Bone
Mike seems to have ‘mastered’ bluffing, dodging and derailing. Mind you I use the term “mastered” loosely - it’s not that Mike shows great skill and proficiency in the inept way he bluffs , dodges and derails - perhaps it’s an unholy adoration of wierwille that has mastered him - like a taskmaster that drives him to mindlessly defend his idol.
Mike said: Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
That’s one hell of a projection! Way to go, Mike!
Weird how Mike projects his own problems onto others - - assuming everyone needs a guide to replace the absent wierwille.
Generally the issue with Mike vs Grease Spotters is Mike’s wierwille-centric belief system vs any other belief system that does NOT idolize wierwille.
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So_crates
You mean like PLAF?
You're obviously projecting here as you seem to think because you believe something everyone else has to believe it too.
Like you cherry picking questions you'll answer.
More projection.
It's your hand that's empty.
Otherwise you'd answer the two questions you should have asked before you started your "50 years researching PLAF."
What two questions? Your presuppositions to anything Saint Vic:
1. What evidence do I have that Saint Vic was a MOG?
2. What evidence do I have Saint Vic was doing God's will?
And don't point to the collaterals. That's a circular argument.
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OldSkool
Sad really..Mike has spent 50 years rifling through wierwilles doctrinal trash and after all that time Mike still doesn't know Jesus Christ...the focal point of the ages and the center piece of Christianity. Mike whoever has the son has the father...if u don't have the son you don't have the father...
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Mike
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
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Mike
I point to the collaterals, because they round off my argument.
I point to what I got from the collaterals in the 1970s, and how they served me a clear window into the Bible. I still use that window to see clearly.
I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge. You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
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waysider
There's a bitterness torch? Why hasn't someone told me?
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Mike
It's because you have not asked them.
Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll?
Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. Then, if they speak up about the positives, they are shot down with barrages of bitterness. Either that, or they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
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waysider
It seems to me, it's you who has dodged the challenge to look beyond to see more clearly. Does the positive stuff, as scant as it was, negate the negative stuff? Nevermind, I'm pretty sure in your mind it does.
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OldSkool
Typical wierwille bullying tactic...try and shame people for telling the truth. Bitterness torch = truth.
I follow Christ's lead and whichever direction that takes is where I go. 50 years and your still lost.
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waysider
Why would I need to ask anyone? I'm a big boy now and expected to form my own opinions.
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So_crates
This shows how your not to be trusted. I asked you what proof you had that Saint Vic was a MOG? You responded the collaterals. I responded, So? The devil can quote scripture.
Now you're trying to palm then off as rounding off your argument. The two things are poles apart
PLAF doesn't provide a window, it provides a carnival mirror, distorted by Saint Vic's desire to make his vices biblically alright in the eyes of God.
Like you dodged the two suppositions challenge?
No, a know a fake prophet produced fake prophecies
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