I have considered that.
I have also considered that everyone looks for loopholes with sex.
But not everyone is a minister telling others sex outside of marriage is wrong.
19 minutes ago, Mike said:
There is a strange silence here about this paper that I have noticed.
I wonder how many of the 14 "pick-up lines" at the end of that paper have been used by LOTS of people in TWI, and even some here. I started hearing the pick-up lines in the 1970s in the early TVTs.
You know the best pickup line? "Hello."
19 minutes ago, Mike said:
I get the impression that paper somewhat quietly ended the party for some who were "having fun" on the side.
Your impression is probably wrong. It's been my experience that parties of that nature don't end, they just become more excusive and secret.
"In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them."
OK, what I'm thinking is as follows....
A) vpw set the stage for adultery, in great detail and many varieties
B) It was against vpw's interests to expose adultery in twi or end it. He set it up to use it.
C) It's remotely possible that a sick vpw might have wanted a petty revenge on those whom he claimed ignored him- and one such way was to paint them as "adulterers" and leave out how vpw himself had been an adulterer and taught others to fornicate.
D) It is more likely that RD and VF did tell J S they needed some work on the subject of adultery. It is NOT likely that vpw told RD and VF this.
E) It is much more likely that RD and VF had 'stretched the truth" concerning this. They saw something was wrong, and sent JS, a researcher, to do the research. They sincerely and honestly thought it was needed, and that, if they said vpw wanted it, it would be given a priority and be done fast and well.
Saint Vic asked two people to research adultery or fornication?
That's like Jeffery Dahmer asking someone to help him research a book on BBQ.
Saint vic and good ole boy Howard started the research with a cartoon on the wall of their motorcycle shed. It was a picture of two bugs engaged in intercourse with the caption “flea fornication”. I wonder which of them drew it.
Saint vic and good ole boy Howard started the research with a cartoon on the wall of their motorcycle shed. It was a picture of two bugs engaged in intercourse with the caption “flea fornication”. I wonder which of them drew it.
At least the cartoon wasn't of two worms making love in dead Ernest.
I reported here (on the Jumping to Concussions thread, I think) that I had a preview of what I thought Penwork's complaint would be.
In 1977 or '78 I had a conversation at HQ (as I posted here) with two members of the Research Dept who were in the 7th or 8th Corps. They told me that the Research Dept was not doing real research.
They evidentially said enough to other people to get themselves fired in a big splash at Emporia where they were located.
But I heard what they said and kept quiet about it, thinking it through for years. I added to this pondering some rather wild and perplexing things VPW said on SNT tapes about searching for manuscripts that back him up. I said I had lots of ups and downs with my respect for TWI and VPW, and this was part of the down side.
After 1998 I finally understood the 1942 promise much better, after years of pretty much ignoring it. That was when the whole set of Research Department questions I had been harboring and pondering got answered.
I wont be shocked at Penworks' revelations. I had been thinking about them several years before she noticed them, if my calculations are correct. This is why I am reading it so slow. I am 99% sure I know the ending. We will see. It is getting more nostalgic for me, because the place where I am at in her book is when I got into the Word in late 1971.
3 hours ago, Mike said:
This may have happened to some topics, but it doesn't jive with what John Schoenheit wrote himself in the beginning of his paper on adultery.
There is an odd note where he says that VPW had asked Vince and Ralph to research adultery or fornication in the early 80s, but they did not know how to begin it, so they asked Schoenheit for help.
Now, eventually, that Schoenheit paper was squashed and hidden by fear saturated leadership, but it was over a full year after VPW's death. Thank God, the squashing and hiding were the most brainless cover-up job in history, and the paper got out.
The paper was squashed by wierwille himself in 1978!
My wife and I were at Advanced Class 1978 - married couples were separated in sleeping quarters and in Twig placement.
Tonto (my wife) got into an argument with the Twig coordinator who emphatically kept making the assertion that one could only become born again of the wrong seed by addressing Satan directly at an altar and saying something along the lines of “Satan you are my Lord.”
As ridiculous and petty as this sounds the ‘report’ of this egregious argument went all the way up the mini-Way-Tree-of-Advanced-Class-’78 - and no surprise, was more fuel to add to the fire - Skyrider was a branch coordinator at the class and had mentioned on another thread TWI memories about the 8th corps guys who had gone rogue on a research paper - if I’m not mistaken this was the infamous adultery paper .
At a branch coordinators meeting wierwille and Craig went on a tirade over any TWI-believer challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership…
…later they doled out another confrontational-rant to the rest of us at the Advanced Class going over the same infraction - challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership...
I think cult-leaders tap into the PT Barnum principle - have something for everyone…”I am disappointed in how little you believe the Word” says wierwille from the pulpit - and poor dumb schlubs like me who never feel like i measure up anyway to wierwille’s standards will automatically draw on memories of any recent failures, mistakes , shortcomings to support his assessment of my believing.
…weird how a browbeating by cult-leaders can be ‘appreciated’ on different levels - branch leaders probably saw the main thrust was over the rogue research paper - and peons like me who felt it was mostly about my wife noting the lack of details in wierwille’s teaching on the nebulous unforgivable sin…so to sum up the message to my wife - coming straight from the top was "leadership is always right, you're wrong, so shut up".
so make no mistake - wierwille squashed the adultery paper!
LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them?
VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will.
LCM: You understand what I just asked?
VPW: I sure did and I gave you the proper answer.
LCM: I asked, How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them?
VPW: Alright, Kurt?
Kurt: In verse 15.....
A few years later, VPW put oil on LCM's head. OIL!! (O-I-L)
----------------
I don't need an essay, a reverend, a doctor, a Bible, a Quran, a hippie, a socio-cultural aesthetic/moral sensibility, or a "class" to tell me that f*cking my friend's wife will hurt my friend and that raping my friend's wife will hurt my friend's wife.
The paper was squashed by wierwille himself in 1978!
so make no mistake - wierwille squashed the adultery paper!
No. Very wrong.
Schoenheit was not at HQ in 1978.
The paper was squashed in fall of 1986, sez Schoenheit himself, by Walter and the BOT. I can find where he says this. It is in a short summary. Vpw had been dead for some 18 months when the paper was squashed and the ministry meltdown started.
Check your sources.
You and they got it very wrong.
The paper was squashed by wierwille himself in 1978!
Here is Schoenheit's account of Sept 1986. Background of the paper (by Schoenheit date unknown but probably late 90s or early 2000s):
*/*/*
My story (short version): In the spring of 1986 a girl came to me and said she had had sexual intercourse with Dr. Wierwille. I had no reason to doubt her as we were friends and she "had her head on her shoulders" in life. I started asking around to girls I knew always got to ride on the motor coach, fly on Ambassador 1, get "back room" duty instead of housekeeping or grounds, etc. Lo and behold, I talked to many women that were very candid about their sexual relations with leadership.
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about those months was the developing picture was that this was not just practical sin based on lust but rather was sin based on wrong doctrine--many of the people involved thought it was okay with God. In fact, all of the "reasons" that I wrote about in my appendix came out of the mouths of women I talked to. I would ask them why they thought it was okay or why they were told it was okay and those were the reasons I got, so that is why I answered those specific questions.
In the midst of interviewing the women I suspected might have had sexual relations with leadership, I had three different women tell me I would be killed if I tried to stop it. The first time I thought it was a totally stupid thing, but by the third one I really stopped and thought about it. David had Uriah killed for the same reason. To protect my work I sent it to about 7 people I knew and trusted (I do not remember the exact number or all the people now) sealed in an envelope inside an envelope with instructions to "go public" if I ended up dead. I told them that the paper was going to be sent up proper channels, and not to share the work with others. As you know, The Way had strict guidelines for handling research, and at that time I had been in the Research Dept. for six years, loved my job and believed in the system even though I was beginning to have doubts about the integrity of the leadership. I handed the paper in to Walter Cummins in late September. It just sat on his desk. One of the people I had given a copy to had been hurt by the sex stuff and really wanted it to "make an impact." She went to Ralph, who, of course, knew nothing of the paper (like I said, I had not gone public). Ralph talked with somebody (who?) and the next thing I knew there were all kinds of meetings about the paper and all kinds of untrue things being said about me.
On October 23d I was "released" from The Way by order of Chris Geer. It was a Friday. I had a lot of friends at HQ still. On Monday at noon Walter got up in front of the staff and told some made-up lie about me violating department procedures and thus being let go. A friend snuck out of lunch and called me to let me know what was said (I did not ask for that but he did it anyway). I got right on the phone with Walter and told him what he did was wrong and that he should not lie about a brother to all those other Christians. I asked to meet with him face to face but he refused. After that there was a huge witch-hunt and more lies were told about me than you can possibly imagine. Even really weird stuff like I believed in the Trinity and the dead being alive.
Because I still had friends around the country, I got some requests for my paper. Since I was no longer on staff, and since my "belief in the system" had really taken a blow, I mailed it to anyone who asked. By that time the Trustees and Corps Coordinators were starting a rumor that the paper personally attacked Dr. Wierwille and taught all kinds of false doctrine. Corps going home for "ho-ho relo" were told if they read my paper not to come back in residence. It was also stated that the paper had devil spirits and anyone who read it became possessed. Well, that all backfired because as people read it they could tell that what was said about it was lies. And so there was an escalation of people challenging the leadership and leaving The Way.
In time I hooked up with Ralph Dubofsky, Tom Reheard, John Lynn, Mark Graeser, Robert Belt, and some others and CES was born. It took a while for the smoke to clear, but when it did all that was left of us was John Lynn, Mark Graeser and myself, and we have been together ever since. The Lord has been leading us, and now I think we are turning out some really first-class stuff.
If victor's "ministry" had been built on rock instead of sand... If he hadn't so smugly defecated in the mouth of God, this adolescent story never would have happened.
Even though JS was deeply confused on the crucified, the denials, the crowing cocks, Romans, SIT, etc., I have no reason to disbelieve his account. But it sounds like he and all the others were teenagers! So immature. Lord of the flies kinds of shonta!
If victor had been "spiritually mature" perhaps the rickety house he built would have been inhabited by adults. So sad, it's funny. Absurd. Ridiculous. Vomitous.
I'm so sorry for all who got caught up (flocked) in this stupid "ministry." 1970s, 80s, 90s... doesn't matter which era.
This whole thing is so stupid.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Handle your cookie jars with gloved hands
The paper was squashed in fall of 1986, sez Schoenheit himself, by Walter and the BOT. I can find where he says this. It is in a short summary. Vpw had been dead for some 18 months when the paper was squashed and the ministry meltdown started.
Check your sources.
You and they got it very wrong.
Check Penworks.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
Here is Schoenheit's account of Sept 1986. Background of the paper (by Schoenheit date unknown but probably late 90s or early 2000s):
*/*/*
My story (short version): In the spring of 1986 a girl came to me and said she had had sexual intercourse with Dr. Wierwille. I had no reason to doubt her as we were friends and she "had her head on her shoulders" in life. I started asking around to girls I knew always got to ride on the motor coach, fly on Ambassador 1, get "back room" duty instead of housekeeping or grounds, etc. Lo and behold, I talked to many women that were very candid about their sexual relations with leadership.
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about those months was the developing picture was that this was not just practical sin based on lust but rather was sin based on wrong doctrine--many of the people involved thought it was okay with God. In fact, all of the "reasons" that I wrote about in my appendix came out of the mouths of women I talked to. I would ask them why they thought it was okay or why they were told it was okay and those were the reasons I got, so that is why I answered those specific questions.
In the midst of interviewing the women I suspected might have had sexual relations with leadership, I had three different women tell me I would be killed if I tried to stop it. The first time I thought it was a totally stupid thing, but by the third one I really stopped and thought about it. David had Uriah killed for the same reason. To protect my work I sent it to about 7 people I knew and trusted (I do not remember the exact number or all the people now) sealed in an envelope inside an envelope with instructions to "go public" if I ended up dead. I told them that the paper was going to be sent up proper channels, and not to share the work with others. As you know, The Way had strict guidelines for handling research, and at that time I had been in the Research Dept. for six years, loved my job and believed in the system even though I was beginning to have doubts about the integrity of the leadership. I handed the paper in to Walter Cummins in late September. It just sat on his desk. One of the people I had given a copy to had been hurt by the sex stuff and really wanted it to "make an impact." She went to Ralph, who, of course, knew nothing of the paper (like I said, I had not gone public). Ralph talked with somebody (who?) and the next thing I knew there were all kinds of meetings about the paper and all kinds of untrue things being said about me.
On October 23d I was "released" from The Way by order of Chris Geer. It was a Friday. I had a lot of friends at HQ still. On Monday at noon Walter got up in front of the staff and told some made-up lie about me violating department procedures and thus being let go. A friend snuck out of lunch and called me to let me know what was said (I did not ask for that but he did it anyway). I got right on the phone with Walter and told him what he did was wrong and that he should not lie about a brother to all those other Christians. I asked to meet with him face to face but he refused. After that there was a huge witch-hunt and more lies were told about me than you can possibly imagine. Even really weird stuff like I believed in the Trinity and the dead being alive.
Because I still had friends around the country, I got some requests for my paper. Since I was no longer on staff, and since my "belief in the system" had really taken a blow, I mailed it to anyone who asked. By that time the Trustees and Corps Coordinators were starting a rumor that the paper personally attacked Dr. Wierwille and taught all kinds of false doctrine. Corps going home for "ho-ho relo" were told if they read my paper not to come back in residence. It was also stated that the paper had devil spirits and anyone who read it became possessed. Well, that all backfired because as people read it they could tell that what was said about it was lies. And so there was an escalation of people challenging the leadership and leaving The Way.
In time I hooked up with Ralph Dubofsky, Tom Reheard, John Lynn, Mark Graeser, Robert Belt, and some others and CES was born. It took a while for the smoke to clear, but when it did all that was left of us was John Lynn, Mark Graeser and myself, and we have been together ever since. The Lord has been leading us, and now I think we are turning out some really first-class stuff.
Ok maybe so - I assumed it was the adultery paper -
But
after reading the introduction (the section I quoted below) it got me wondering if the Advanced Class 1978 ‘tirade’ was related to an early form of this paper - perhaps some preliminary work he had done - as this excerpt below indicates he did a “little study” on the subject, during his last year in residence …the fact that Ralph and Vince had come to him in 82 or 83 makes me wonder why they went to HIM - were they aware of some work he had already done? If anyone has more details on this it would be great to share about it…and maybe I’m making a big deal over nothing because the ‘78 incident was over some other research - anyway here is excerpt:
Foreword: In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them. I was genuinely surprised at how little I knew about the subject from the Word of God. This paper is the result of those years of study.
Actually, I had done a little study before Ralph and Vince came to me. During my last year in residence in the Way Corps, I was alone in my bedroom when a girl whom I had always thought was attractive came in looking for Diane. She thought that Diane was there and I was gone, and she came in wearing an "exciting" black nightie. I was surprised at how strong my desire was to make love to her. As I struggled to control my mind, I realized that I did not have a scripture to grab onto for support. I literally was not completely positive as to what the Word of God had to say on the subject. I began studying the Word of God, and I got as far as the Mosaic Law that proscribes the death penalty for adultery. I believed that if God commanded the death penalty for adultery in the Old Testament, His will on the subject could not have changed with the change of administration. If anything, the marriage relationship is even more important now, during the age of Grace, because it portrays the Great Mystery.
If there was no early form of the paper, then there's some discontinuities in the accounts.
If there WAS an early form, then it all fits together. RD and VF approach JS because he'd already DONE work on the subject, and he was in the research department. The previous research came up, even if in passing, and was soundly crushed (the same as anything that contradicted what vpw taught.) So, knowing vpw wouldn't want the paper but that it was needed, RD and VF approach JS and get him started on it, fibbing that vpw asked for it. The later paper is bigger than the first, and thus is a lot more controversial.
Since JS was perfectly happy to continue working with JAL- who said, DECADES after vpw's death, that he thought vpw would be proud of him (Why seek vpw's approval long after we all knew about vpw? Because JAL did not, and there's none so blind as those who refuse to see)- it would not surprise me to find out JS' accounts treated vpw somewhat kinder than facts warranted.
Here is Schoenheit's account of Sept 1986. Background of the paper (by Schoenheit date unknown but probably late 90s or early 2000s):
*/*/*
My story (short version): In the spring of 1986 a girl came to me and said she had had sexual intercourse with Dr. Wierwille. I had no reason to doubt her as we were friends and she "had her head on her shoulders" in life. I started asking around to girls I knew always got to ride on the motor coach, fly on Ambassador 1, get "back room" duty instead of housekeeping or grounds, etc. Lo and behold, I talked to many women that were very candid about their sexual relations with leadership.
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about those months was the developing picture was that this was not just practical sin based on lust but rather was sin based on wrong doctrine--many of the people involved thought it was okay with God. In fact, all of the "reasons" that I wrote about in my appendix came out of the mouths of women I talked to. I would ask them why they thought it was okay or why they were told it was okay and those were the reasons I got, so that is why I answered those specific questions.
In the midst of interviewing the women I suspected might have had sexual relations with leadership, I had three different women tell me I would be killed if I tried to stop it. The first time I thought it was a totally stupid thing, but by the third one I really stopped and thought about it. David had Uriah killed for the same reason. To protect my work I sent it to about 7 people I knew and trusted (I do not remember the exact number or all the people now) sealed in an envelope inside an envelope with instructions to "go public" if I ended up dead. I told them that the paper was going to be sent up proper channels, and not to share the work with others. As you know, The Way had strict guidelines for handling research, and at that time I had been in the Research Dept. for six years, loved my job and believed in the system even though I was beginning to have doubts about the integrity of the leadership. I handed the paper in to Walter Cummins in late September. It just sat on his desk. One of the people I had given a copy to had been hurt by the sex stuff and really wanted it to "make an impact." She went to Ralph, who, of course, knew nothing of the paper (like I said, I had not gone public). Ralph talked with somebody (who?) and the next thing I knew there were all kinds of meetings about the paper and all kinds of untrue things being said about me.
On October 23d I was "released" from The Way by order of Chris Geer. It was a Friday. I had a lot of friends at HQ still. On Monday at noon Walter got up in front of the staff and told some made-up lie about me violating department procedures and thus being let go. A friend snuck out of lunch and called me to let me know what was said (I did not ask for that but he did it anyway). I got right on the phone with Walter and told him what he did was wrong and that he should not lie about a brother to all those other Christians. I asked to meet with him face to face but he refused. After that there was a huge witch-hunt and more lies were told about me than you can possibly imagine. Even really weird stuff like I believed in the Trinity and the dead being alive.
Because I still had friends around the country, I got some requests for my paper. Since I was no longer on staff, and since my "belief in the system" had really taken a blow, I mailed it to anyone who asked. By that time the Trustees and Corps Coordinators were starting a rumor that the paper personally attacked Dr. Wierwille and taught all kinds of false doctrine. Corps going home for "ho-ho relo" were told if they read my paper not to come back in residence. It was also stated that the paper had devil spirits and anyone who read it became possessed. Well, that all backfired because as people read it they could tell that what was said about it was lies. And so there was an escalation of people challenging the leadership and leaving The Way.
In time I hooked up with Ralph Dubofsky, Tom Reheard, John Lynn, Mark Graeser, Robert Belt, and some others and CES was born. It took a while for the smoke to clear, but when it did all that was left of us was John Lynn, Mark Graeser and myself, and we have been together ever since. The Lord has been leading us, and now I think we are turning out some really first-class stuff.
This is an honest account of a genuine Christian in the research department that wrote a very simple word study paper on “adultery”. The timeframe of the paper circulation is documented. Fog years when Geer was an advisor to the BOT - Walter Cummins still around.
Who knows when this topic first came up or was looked into. The cartoon on the motorcycle shed is an indication of ridiculing scripture from a seared conscience. When was this drawn? Unknown.
Extreme censorship of material like this was and is common in TWI. They treat GSC like this up to current times. Excommunication for all remotely associated with it.
JS last paragraph time has shown to be majorly delusional investigating the history of CES and leadership. JAL started even more splinters after that - he was a true used car salesman.
Mike I’m gonna acknowledge this as you coming out of your shell a little bit on the sex topics. It’s funny and illustrates a good point about sliding morality.
This is an honest account of a genuine Christian in the research department that wrote a very simple word study paper on “adultery”. The timeframe of the paper circulation is documented. Fog years when Geer was an advisor to the BOT - Walter Cummins still around.
Makes you wonder what is the point of biblical “research”. wierwille et al have typically obfuscated the differences in disciplines - word studies and textual criticism tend to look for the original meaning. Whereas the wierwille / TWI tenets has Its own brand of skewed systematic theology - which strives to make a coherent and CURRENTLY RELEVANT doctrine out of what wierwille intuited with generous proportions of fundamentalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism.
If I had paid better attention to wierwille’s butchering of simple grammar and logic in PFAL, I probably would have noticed his departure from what a passage meant to the original recipients.
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
So take note at one of the first HUGE RED FLAGS in PFAL. Bullinger as well as many modern translations understood II Peter 1 (you can check out other translations if you click on the Bible Hub hyperlink above ) refers to the ORIGIN of Scripture and NOT to the INTERPRETATION of Scripture…and to make matters more confusing wierwille goes on to say it should be understood to mean that no one should interpret Scripture because Scripture interprets itself.
I bought into wierwille’s nonsense - and without realizing it, I accepted wierwille’s interpretation of Scripture as if it was the original and true meaning of the Bible. Boy, did I miss it it! Mike chides us for how much we missed in PFAL - oh I see it now . I missed all the con games.
Relative to this point about adultery - I’ve heard wierwille teach on mention of adultery in NT passages that it’s referring to “spiritual adultery” i.e., shacking up with other gods. Again note the pivot from the original meaning of a word to twisting it to fit into his depraved systematic theology.
Mike I’m gonna acknowledge this as you coming out of your shell a little bit on the sex topics. It’s funny and illustrates a good point about sliding morality.
Thanks.I appreciate it when we can laugh a little at these things.
*/*/*
With the “Schoenheit Paper on Adultery” I have somehow received (against my will) a long-suit in tracking the history of that document.
But I have no stomach for tracking the sexual sins or bad character of any of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
The former tracking is an official policy matter, how leadership in TWI-2 tried to suppress that paper, AND how leadership did not see a need for that paper years before it appeared in 1986.
The latter tracking is just real serious, un-funny, acting-out what the SNL Church Lady is a parody of.
*/*/*
I was raised in a religious cult that was seriously anti-sex. It was a rural Roman Catholic parish with a large school for grades 1-8.From the first grade on we were taught to confess our sins every Saturday. This was well before puberty.We were introduced to Mary the anti-sex goddess right away. We had no idea what “purity” really meant, but it gradually became obvious as the years went by. This was in the mid 1950s, but because it was rural, it was more like the mid 1940s.
Dana Carvey got that Church Lady character just right to make her super funny, but in real life it was not funny at all.It was a daily grind to be super aware of all my sins of commission, omission, and mental intent, PLUS all the other kids’ sins, some of which looked super fun.
Seeing posters here seriously caught in the Church Lady trap is a grind for me.I deal with it the way parents of new babies learn to handle the stink of changing diapers. What you perceive as a “shell,” to me is perceived as a gas mask.
*/*/*
But the “Schoenheit Paper on Adultery” is different.Here we are not incompetently trying to sort out the details in a person’s private hidden life, but sorting out the official actions of a corporate board that affects many others’ lives for years following.
Properly handling and correcting the mistakes of TWI-2 on the Schoenheit Paper is in the Top Ten items I currently discuss with TWI-4 leaders.I am insisting on TWI-4 issuing some kind of official written statement on this someday. Until they do, and make written apologies to all who were fired over it, the Schoenheit Paper will be a wedge between HQ and me.I hope they mature to the point of see the need for this correction.
The other failing of TWI-2 in their behavior in 1986 was not seeing, in the years prior to 1986, a great need for someone to do research into “adultery” like Schoenheit did.That paper was needed many years prior to that date.This may possibly be related to VPW asking Vince and Ralph to research it in the early 1980s.
I saw the need for that paper in 1980, when I was a twig leader. It was a raging problem in my twig, so for 2 weeks we worked Young’s concordance, and eventually came to some conclusions very similar to what Schoenheit came to 6 years later when he wrote his research up.We also wrote down all the rationalizations we could remember from the TVTs, and worked on about 10 of them.In Schoenheit’s later paper he called these rationalizations “reasons” and he worked 14 of them.
So there was a need in the ministry to work that paper WAY before 1986, and even before 1980, and that has not changed.
*/*/*
Neglecting the need in the mid-1980s for clarifications on sex was one evil that came from TWI-2 (and probably TWI-1 also), and then suppressing the paper when it finally came out in 1986 was an additional evil on top of the first. Those are the two points I am GENTLY pressing TWI-4 leaders on.
So take note at one of the first HUGE RED FLAGS in PFAL. Bullinger as well as many modern translations understood II Peter 1 (you can check out other translations if you click on the Bible Hub hyperlink above ) refers to the ORIGIN of Scripture and NOT to the INTERPRETATION of Scripture…and to make matters more confusing wierwille goes on to say it should be understood to mean that no one should interpret Scripture because Scripture interprets itself.
Earl Burton handles this some in the Festschrift book they did for VPW in 1982, but it is a little too boring to keep me awake.
The way I handle this is I figure if the people who WROTE the scriptures were to divorce their own thinking from what God was telling them to write, then people who READ the scriptures are not to inject their private thoughts into it either.
It's almost a tautology.
It is also self evident. What good is it to read God's Word without getting HIS interpretation, and being side tracked by self generated ideas?
Relative to this point about adultery - I’ve heard wierwille teach on mention of adultery in NT passages that it’s referring to “spiritual adultery” i.e., shacking up with other gods
Can confirm
But, of course, it's secret knowledge that's only revealed to those who are spiritually mature enough to receive it. /s
Relative to this point about adultery - I’ve heard wierwille teach on mention of adultery in NT passages that it’s referring to “spiritual adultery” i.e., shacking up with other gods. Again note the pivot from the original meaning of a word to twisting it to fit into his depraved systematic theology.
It would help if you remembered WHICH tapes. I have heard similar things, but I can't remember where. The collaterals do not have any of these kinds of comments, though.
The reason I ask for your sources is because I like to check the context on things like that.
Someday we will have searchable transcripts for the SNT tapes, but that is a long process. I have friends working on it.
I figure if the people who WROTE the scriptures were to divorce their own thinking from what God was telling them to write, then people who READ the scriptures are not to inject their private thoughts into it either.
Well, that's your opinion (private interpretation) and you're certainly entitled to it. That doesn't guarantee your opinion is correct, though.
I've told the story here so many times that I abbreviated it here this time. I was a twig leader and the people NEEDED to get the subject looked into. I did not feel qualified, and would never have wanted to research it on my own. I had to do it for them.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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So_crates
But not everyone is a minister telling others sex outside of marriage is wrong.
You know the best pickup line? "Hello."
Your impression is probably wrong. It's been my experience that parties of that nature don't end, they just become more excusive and secret.
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So_crates
It's easy. If you're one of those people popping off about the evils of contemporary moral values,then you should practice what you preach.
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chockfull
You mean TWI-2. I read that paper during the fog years. It just seemed like a basic word study, nothing revolutionary.
It probably came off more confrontational to people who had something to hide in those categories.
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WordWolf
"In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them."
OK, what I'm thinking is as follows....
A) vpw set the stage for adultery, in great detail and many varieties
B) It was against vpw's interests to expose adultery in twi or end it. He set it up to use it.
C) It's remotely possible that a sick vpw might have wanted a petty revenge on those whom he claimed ignored him- and one such way was to paint them as "adulterers" and leave out how vpw himself had been an adulterer and taught others to fornicate.
D) It is more likely that RD and VF did tell J S they needed some work on the subject of adultery. It is NOT likely that vpw told RD and VF this.
E) It is much more likely that RD and VF had 'stretched the truth" concerning this. They saw something was wrong, and sent JS, a researcher, to do the research. They sincerely and honestly thought it was needed, and that, if they said vpw wanted it, it would be given a priority and be done fast and well.
So, I'm leaning in that direction.
We know that vpw, in the whole,
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chockfull
Saint vic and good ole boy Howard started the research with a cartoon on the wall of their motorcycle shed. It was a picture of two bugs engaged in intercourse with the caption “flea fornication”. I wonder which of them drew it.
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So_crates
At least the cartoon wasn't of two worms making love in dead Ernest.
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T-Bone
The paper was squashed by wierwille himself in 1978!
My wife and I were at Advanced Class 1978 - married couples were separated in sleeping quarters and in Twig placement.
Tonto (my wife) got into an argument with the Twig coordinator who emphatically kept making the assertion that one could only become born again of the wrong seed by addressing Satan directly at an altar and saying something along the lines of “Satan you are my Lord.”
As ridiculous and petty as this sounds the ‘report’ of this egregious argument went all the way up the mini-Way-Tree-of-Advanced-Class-’78 - and no surprise, was more fuel to add to the fire - Skyrider was a branch coordinator at the class and had mentioned on another thread TWI memories about the 8th corps guys who had gone rogue on a research paper - if I’m not mistaken this was the infamous adultery paper .
At a branch coordinators meeting wierwille and Craig went on a tirade over any TWI-believer challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership…
…later they doled out another confrontational-rant to the rest of us at the Advanced Class going over the same infraction - challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership...
I think cult-leaders tap into the PT Barnum principle - have something for everyone…”I am disappointed in how little you believe the Word” says wierwille from the pulpit - and poor dumb schlubs like me who never feel like i measure up anyway to wierwille’s standards will automatically draw on memories of any recent failures, mistakes , shortcomings to support his assessment of my believing.
…weird how a browbeating by cult-leaders can be ‘appreciated’ on different levels - branch leaders probably saw the main thrust was over the rogue research paper - and peons like me who felt it was mostly about my wife noting the lack of details in wierwille’s teaching on the nebulous unforgivable sin…so to sum up the message to my wife - coming straight from the top was "leadership is always right, you're wrong, so shut up".
so make no mistake - wierwille squashed the adultery paper!
Edited by T-BoneAdded details
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Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A:
LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them?
VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will.
LCM: You understand what I just asked?
VPW: I sure did and I gave you the proper answer.
LCM: I asked, How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them?
VPW: Alright, Kurt?
Kurt: In verse 15.....
A few years later, VPW put oil on LCM's head. OIL!! (O-I-L)
----------------
I don't need an essay, a reverend, a doctor, a Bible, a Quran, a hippie, a socio-cultural aesthetic/moral sensibility, or a "class" to tell me that f*cking my friend's wife will hurt my friend and that raping my friend's wife will hurt my friend's wife.
And it matters not in which era I live.
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Mike
No. Very wrong.
Schoenheit was not at HQ in 1978.
The paper was squashed in fall of 1986, sez Schoenheit himself, by Walter and the BOT. I can find where he says this. It is in a short summary. Vpw had been dead for some 18 months when the paper was squashed and the ministry meltdown started.
Check your sources.
You and they got it very wrong.
Check Penworks.
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Mike
Here is Schoenheit's account of Sept 1986. Background of the paper (by Schoenheit date unknown but probably late 90s or early 2000s):
*/*/*
My story (short version): In the spring of 1986 a girl came to me and said she had had sexual intercourse with Dr. Wierwille. I had no reason to doubt her as we were friends and she "had her head on her shoulders" in life. I started asking around to girls I knew always got to ride on the motor coach, fly on Ambassador 1, get "back room" duty instead of housekeeping or grounds, etc. Lo and behold, I talked to many women that were very candid about their sexual relations with leadership.
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about those months was the developing picture was that this was not just practical sin based on lust but rather was sin based on wrong doctrine--many of the people involved thought it was okay with God. In fact, all of the "reasons" that I wrote about in my appendix came out of the mouths of women I talked to. I would ask them why they thought it was okay or why they were told it was okay and those were the reasons I got, so that is why I answered those specific questions.
In the midst of interviewing the women I suspected might have had sexual relations with leadership, I had three different women tell me I would be killed if I tried to stop it. The first time I thought it was a totally stupid thing, but by the third one I really stopped and thought about it. David had Uriah killed for the same reason. To protect my work I sent it to about 7 people I knew and trusted (I do not remember the exact number or all the people now) sealed in an envelope inside an envelope with instructions to "go public" if I ended up dead. I told them that the paper was going to be sent up proper channels, and not to share the work with others. As you know, The Way had strict guidelines for handling research, and at that time I had been in the Research Dept. for six years, loved my job and believed in the system even though I was beginning to have doubts about the integrity of the leadership. I handed the paper in to Walter Cummins in late September. It just sat on his desk. One of the people I had given a copy to had been hurt by the sex stuff and really wanted it to "make an impact." She went to Ralph, who, of course, knew nothing of the paper (like I said, I had not gone public). Ralph talked with somebody (who?) and the next thing I knew there were all kinds of meetings about the paper and all kinds of untrue things being said about me.
On October 23d I was "released" from The Way by order of Chris Geer. It was a Friday. I had a lot of friends at HQ still. On Monday at noon Walter got up in front of the staff and told some made-up lie about me violating department procedures and thus being let go. A friend snuck out of lunch and called me to let me know what was said (I did not ask for that but he did it anyway). I got right on the phone with Walter and told him what he did was wrong and that he should not lie about a brother to all those other Christians. I asked to meet with him face to face but he refused. After that there was a huge witch-hunt and more lies were told about me than you can possibly imagine. Even really weird stuff like I believed in the Trinity and the dead being alive.
Because I still had friends around the country, I got some requests for my paper. Since I was no longer on staff, and since my "belief in the system" had really taken a blow, I mailed it to anyone who asked. By that time the Trustees and Corps Coordinators were starting a rumor that the paper personally attacked Dr. Wierwille and taught all kinds of false doctrine. Corps going home for "ho-ho relo" were told if they read my paper not to come back in residence. It was also stated that the paper had devil spirits and anyone who read it became possessed. Well, that all backfired because as people read it they could tell that what was said about it was lies. And so there was an escalation of people challenging the leadership and leaving The Way.
In time I hooked up with Ralph Dubofsky, Tom Reheard, John Lynn, Mark Graeser, Robert Belt, and some others and CES was born. It took a while for the smoke to clear, but when it did all that was left of us was John Lynn, Mark Graeser and myself, and we have been together ever since. The Lord has been leading us, and now I think we are turning out some really first-class stuff.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
If victor's "ministry" had been built on rock instead of sand... If he hadn't so smugly defecated in the mouth of God, this adolescent story never would have happened.
Even though JS was deeply confused on the crucified, the denials, the crowing cocks, Romans, SIT, etc., I have no reason to disbelieve his account. But it sounds like he and all the others were teenagers! So immature. Lord of the flies kinds of shonta!
If victor had been "spiritually mature" perhaps the rickety house he built would have been inhabited by adults. So sad, it's funny. Absurd. Ridiculous. Vomitous.
I'm so sorry for all who got caught up (flocked) in this stupid "ministry." 1970s, 80s, 90s... doesn't matter which era.
This whole thing is so stupid.
Edited by Nathan_JrHandle your cookie jars with gloved hands
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T-Bone
Ok maybe so - I assumed it was the adultery paper -
But
after reading the introduction (the section I quoted below) it got me wondering if the Advanced Class 1978 ‘tirade’ was related to an early form of this paper - perhaps some preliminary work he had done - as this excerpt below indicates he did a “little study” on the subject, during his last year in residence …the fact that Ralph and Vince had come to him in 82 or 83 makes me wonder why they went to HIM - were they aware of some work he had already done? If anyone has more details on this it would be great to share about it…and maybe I’m making a big deal over nothing because the ‘78 incident was over some other research - anyway here is excerpt:
Foreword: In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them. I was genuinely surprised at how little I knew about the subject from the Word of God. This paper is the result of those years of study.
Actually, I had done a little study before Ralph and Vince came to me. During my last year in residence in the Way Corps, I was alone in my bedroom when a girl whom I had always thought was attractive came in looking for Diane. She thought that Diane was there and I was gone, and she came in wearing an "exciting" black nightie. I was surprised at how strong my desire was to make love to her. As I struggled to control my mind, I realized that I did not have a scripture to grab onto for support. I literally was not completely positive as to what the Word of God had to say on the subject. I began studying the Word of God, and I got as far as the Mosaic Law that proscribes the death penalty for adultery. I believed that if God commanded the death penalty for adultery in the Old Testament, His will on the subject could not have changed with the change of administration. If anything, the marriage relationship is even more important now, during the age of Grace, because it portrays the Great Mystery.
From: CES website Adultery Paper
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WordWolf
If there was no early form of the paper, then there's some discontinuities in the accounts.
If there WAS an early form, then it all fits together. RD and VF approach JS because he'd already DONE work on the subject, and he was in the research department. The previous research came up, even if in passing, and was soundly crushed (the same as anything that contradicted what vpw taught.) So, knowing vpw wouldn't want the paper but that it was needed, RD and VF approach JS and get him started on it, fibbing that vpw asked for it. The later paper is bigger than the first, and thus is a lot more controversial.
Since JS was perfectly happy to continue working with JAL- who said, DECADES after vpw's death, that he thought vpw would be proud of him (Why seek vpw's approval long after we all knew about vpw? Because JAL did not, and there's none so blind as those who refuse to see)- it would not surprise me to find out JS' accounts treated vpw somewhat kinder than facts warranted.
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chockfull
This is an honest account of a genuine Christian in the research department that wrote a very simple word study paper on “adultery”. The timeframe of the paper circulation is documented. Fog years when Geer was an advisor to the BOT - Walter Cummins still around.
Who knows when this topic first came up or was looked into. The cartoon on the motorcycle shed is an indication of ridiculing scripture from a seared conscience. When was this drawn? Unknown.
Extreme censorship of material like this was and is common in TWI. They treat GSC like this up to current times. Excommunication for all remotely associated with it.
JS last paragraph time has shown to be majorly delusional investigating the history of CES and leadership. JAL started even more splinters after that - he was a true used car salesman.
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chockfull
Mike I’m gonna acknowledge this as you coming out of your shell a little bit on the sex topics. It’s funny and illustrates a good point about sliding morality.
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T-Bone
Makes you wonder what is the point of biblical “research”. wierwille et al have typically obfuscated the differences in disciplines - word studies and textual criticism tend to look for the original meaning. Whereas the wierwille / TWI tenets has Its own brand of skewed systematic theology - which strives to make a coherent and CURRENTLY RELEVANT doctrine out of what wierwille intuited with generous proportions of fundamentalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism.
If I had paid better attention to wierwille’s butchering of simple grammar and logic in PFAL, I probably would have noticed his departure from what a passage meant to the original recipients.
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
II Peter 1 KJV
So take note at one of the first HUGE RED FLAGS in PFAL. Bullinger as well as many modern translations understood II Peter 1 (you can check out other translations if you click on the Bible Hub hyperlink above ) refers to the ORIGIN of Scripture and NOT to the INTERPRETATION of Scripture…and to make matters more confusing wierwille goes on to say it should be understood to mean that no one should interpret Scripture because Scripture interprets itself.
I bought into wierwille’s nonsense - and without realizing it, I accepted wierwille’s interpretation of Scripture as if it was the original and true meaning of the Bible. Boy, did I miss it it! Mike chides us for how much we missed in PFAL - oh I see it now .
I missed all the con games. 
Relative to this point about adultery - I’ve heard wierwille teach on mention of adultery in NT passages that it’s referring to “spiritual adultery” i.e., shacking up with other gods. Again note the pivot from the original meaning of a word to twisting it to fit into his depraved systematic theology.
Edited by T-BoneAdd them there emojifications
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Mike
Thanks. I appreciate it when we can laugh a little at these things.
*/*/*
With the “Schoenheit Paper on Adultery” I have somehow received (against my will) a long-suit in tracking the history of that document.
But I have no stomach for tracking the sexual sins or bad character of any of my brothers and sisters in Christ.
The former tracking is an official policy matter, how leadership in TWI-2 tried to suppress that paper, AND how leadership did not see a need for that paper years before it appeared in 1986.
The latter tracking is just real serious, un-funny, acting-out what the SNL Church Lady is a parody of.
*/*/*
I was raised in a religious cult that was seriously anti-sex. It was a rural Roman Catholic parish with a large school for grades 1-8. From the first grade on we were taught to confess our sins every Saturday. This was well before puberty. We were introduced to Mary the anti-sex goddess right away. We had no idea what “purity” really meant, but it gradually became obvious as the years went by. This was in the mid 1950s, but because it was rural, it was more like the mid 1940s.
Dana Carvey got that Church Lady character just right to make her super funny, but in real life it was not funny at all. It was a daily grind to be super aware of all my sins of commission, omission, and mental intent, PLUS all the other kids’ sins, some of which looked super fun.
Seeing posters here seriously caught in the Church Lady trap is a grind for me. I deal with it the way parents of new babies learn to handle the stink of changing diapers. What you perceive as a “shell,” to me is perceived as a gas mask.
*/*/*
But the “Schoenheit Paper on Adultery” is different. Here we are not incompetently trying to sort out the details in a person’s private hidden life, but sorting out the official actions of a corporate board that affects many others’ lives for years following.
Properly handling and correcting the mistakes of TWI-2 on the Schoenheit Paper is in the Top Ten items I currently discuss with TWI-4 leaders. I am insisting on TWI-4 issuing some kind of official written statement on this someday. Until they do, and make written apologies to all who were fired over it, the Schoenheit Paper will be a wedge between HQ and me. I hope they mature to the point of see the need for this correction.
The other failing of TWI-2 in their behavior in 1986 was not seeing, in the years prior to 1986, a great need for someone to do research into “adultery” like Schoenheit did. That paper was needed many years prior to that date. This may possibly be related to VPW asking Vince and Ralph to research it in the early 1980s.
I saw the need for that paper in 1980, when I was a twig leader. It was a raging problem in my twig, so for 2 weeks we worked Young’s concordance, and eventually came to some conclusions very similar to what Schoenheit came to 6 years later when he wrote his research up. We also wrote down all the rationalizations we could remember from the TVTs, and worked on about 10 of them. In Schoenheit’s later paper he called these rationalizations “reasons” and he worked 14 of them.
So there was a need in the ministry to work that paper WAY before 1986, and even before 1980, and that has not changed.
*/*/*
Neglecting the need in the mid-1980s for clarifications on sex was one evil that came from TWI-2 (and probably TWI-1 also), and then suppressing the paper when it finally came out in 1986 was an additional evil on top of the first. Those are the two points I am GENTLY pressing TWI-4 leaders on.
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Mike
Earl Burton handles this some in the Festschrift book they did for VPW in 1982, but it is a little too boring to keep me awake.
The way I handle this is I figure if the people who WROTE the scriptures were to divorce their own thinking from what God was telling them to write, then people who READ the scriptures are not to inject their private thoughts into it either.
It's almost a tautology.
It is also self evident. What good is it to read God's Word without getting HIS interpretation, and being side tracked by self generated ideas?
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T-Bone
how is that possible?
were you brainwashed? water-boarded? drugged?
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waysider
Can confirm
But, of course, it's secret knowledge that's only revealed to those who are spiritually mature enough to receive it. /s
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T-Bone
yet somehow you seem to TOLERATE the INFLUENCE of bad characters like victor paul wierwille who had a track record of persistent sexual sins !
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Mike
It would help if you remembered WHICH tapes. I have heard similar things, but I can't remember where. The collaterals do not have any of these kinds of comments, though.
The reason I ask for your sources is because I like to check the context on things like that.
Someday we will have searchable transcripts for the SNT tapes, but that is a long process. I have friends working on it.
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waysider
Well, that's your opinion (private interpretation) and you're certainly entitled to it. That doesn't guarantee your opinion is correct, though.
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Mike
I've told the story here so many times that I abbreviated it here this time. I was a twig leader and the people NEEDED to get the subject looked into. I did not feel qualified, and would never have wanted to research it on my own. I had to do it for them.
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