If an analogy must be inexhaustibly explained, decoded or clarified, then it's an ineffectual analogy. It's not REALLY an analogy at all.
An analogy is a comparison of two things for the purpose of clarification. The analogy itself is the clarifier.
Same goes for metaphors. If one must perform acrobatic logical leaps and imaginative jumps to hyper space to explain a metaphor, it's a poorly constructed and ineffectual metaphor.
Edited by Nathan_Jr Gloves... and fiery school buses
Well, if it is any consolation to you, at the end of his life he told us to master the foundational and intermediate classes, and he did it twice in the same teaching.
No, its no consolation what that false prophet said. Master his materials...what a waste of life.
If an analogy must be inexhaustibly explained, decoded or clarified, then it's an ineffectual analogy. It's not REALLY an analogy at all.
An analogy is a comparison of two things for the purpose of clarification. The analogy itself is the clarifier.
Same goes for metaphors. If one must perform acrobatic logical leaps and imaginative jumps to hyper space to explain a metaphor, it's a poorly constructed and ineffectual metaphor.
Or...not only I'd the analogy off base but the analogy is attempting to justify lies and make believe.
More than the war which always rages, these are twin peaks in major power interventions, that are relatively close to each other in time.
Zooming out on the timeline, it looks like a lot of rolling hills and dales, with twin mountains sprinkled about lightly. ...or with scarcity.
Once again, your trivialization of Almighty God leaves a lot to be desired.
As another rebuttal to your God-demeaning thesis, please review Romans 8…and note the chapter offers little insight or explanations of why bad stuff happened and continues to happen, other than verse 28 we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him :
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba,g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Mike – you sound a lot like wierwille in portraying the devil and his troops as having so much power as to often force God to respond in a certain way…read about the Heavenly Warrior in the book of Revelation, with ‘merely’ the sharp sword coming out of His mouth He vanquishes the opposition…reminds me of Genesis – God just saidlet there be light– and there was light – and the darkness fled:
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” a
a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Hi Oldiesman. I noticed on another thread that you were briefly discussing believing and Hebrews 11, as we have been here.
Can you compare what you said about the other factors being involved in the process, along with the law of believing, with what I said here?
On 2/24/2023 at 4:02 PM, oldiesman said:
Reading Hebrews 11 again without TWI glasses on is pretty eye-opening, i.e. that having faith doesn't always bring results. Just look at all those who had faith and never saw results ... so obviously, there can be other forces at work simultaneously.
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, if you read the clip below:
On 3/6/2023 at 11:15 AM, Mike said:
I think it is your UNDERSTANDING of the law of believing that is false.
Your understanding (really all of our's; mine too) was stuck at the foundational level, where the law was first explained.
It was available to grow from that, but it took us a long time. For me it was from late 1971 to late 1988, before I started to advance my understanding from foundational.
Here is what an accurate understanding of the law of believing MUST include:
(1) Linking a promise or direct revelation to believing. This was slow in coming for all of us.
(2) Learning to recognize the subtle differences between believing and mental assent went over many people heads entirely.
(3) Recognizing the notion that lots of other forces are at work competing with our believing.
Few grads have ever risen to keenly understand these three crucial items.
This was a summary of what I was saying earlier in this thread about how in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
I think this is how we were taught the law of believing: in isolation and elimination all the other forces. Later we were to add the other forces into our perspective to make it match everyday reality better.
*/*/*
BTW, the thread where oldiesman's post appeared was:
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
On 3/6/2023 at 10:46 AM, Mike said:
I too have pulled my hair out asking God the same kind of questions.
I imagine Paul asked God why he wasn’t getting sprung from jail and execution.I know for sure he pulled his hair out over his thorn in the flesh, and he finally got an answer that sounds very “budget” like “My grace is sufficient for thee.”
None of us like the “no cookie” answer.
I have no clear idea why it is this way, but it is. I have some limited understanding of it, though from the scriptures.They tell us of other hair pullers that have gone before us, some getting great miraculous results at times, but who ALL eventually ran out of gas, or karma, or budget, or the door was shut, or angels were delayed….
I don’t get it any better than you, but the scriptures have lots of examples like this.It is missing in the PFAL class because that is how laws are described in Physics: first in isolation, then later more advanced cases where other forces are interfering or trying to hinder.
That Daniel Chapter 9 incident opened my eyes to the reality that I have NO IDEA what is really going on in the spirit world and what God’s angels are doing with Christ Jesus leading their charges through open doors.
This came up a little regarding that man Peter and John healed who sat at the gate named Beautiful.How many days did they walk by him with no revelation?Why was God so tardy in getting that taken care of?I have no idea, but I have learned to relax and remember that we are in a spiritual war.
Didyou see the exchange yesterday that I had with So_crates several times about this war, and us living behind enemy lines, in a broken universe?George Lucas got that part right; that is no peace out there in the universe; it is continuous bigtime war in the spiritual universe.
If you saw that exchange, did you recognize how I was throwing out simple Foundational Class stuff at So_crates with those posts?
I was using my own “street” terminology, and he seemed to not be able to make the translation.Were you able to translate?…and see that I was bringing up the falls in the First and Second Heaven and Earth?And that the broken universe is in Romans 8:22 ? “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.”
That is how I stopped pulling my hair out at why doesn’t God fix things right now!
*/*/*
There was a man born blind, and it wasn’t his parents fault, if I remember Jesus’ words right.
This is like a “$hit Happens” verse in my mind.
Another one is Lazarus being very sick and Jesus doesn’t have the revelation to go to him immediately.Everyone at Lazarus’ house were probably pulling hair out over lots of stuff, like how did Lazarus get so sick in the first place?
I noticed you haven’t brought the problem of how did your son get robbed of normalcy in the first place. That is a tough one too, that I have pulled my hair out over. I have often seen leadership twist the devil’s knife by accusing the victim of allowing it.I had this thrown in my face more than once by Corps imitating what the were abuses with in training.
My best understanding, as I mentioned a few pages ago, is that in addition to the law of believing at work, there are others things going on, LOTS of other things going on, and they are war related and evil and not fair.
Remember prophet who prayed that his student prophet could see this, and that there were twice as many angels on our side?Lots of terrible confusing stuff happens in a war, even collateral damage.
Someday every tear will be wiped away, and everything will be fair and just, and “thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”
Mike – you sound a lot like wierwille in portraying the devil and his troops as having so much power as to often force God to respond in a certain way…
When I heard things from VPW on God being limited, it sounded like I should check it out in the Bible. I found many places where it seemed to be saying that God indeed has done it this way, where He makes the rules, and He abides by them Himself. I lean on the many scriptures that indicate that while this spiritual war wages, things are not always like theology want it to be.
How do you handle Daniel chapter 9 and the obvious limitation and hindrances on the angels. I take that as God playing by His rules. But God is smarter with His budget than the devil is with his. God had foreknowledte and the devil doesn't. So God ALWAYS wins where He sets out to do something. People may lose things at times, even their lives. But God's purposes are never frustrated.
God's ways are not our ways. He seems to tell us in the scriptures that He has limitation in this spiritual war, but it is only temporary. At Christ's return things will change.
Right now we pray in hope "Thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven."
I think your theology is so skiddish about over doing on devils that you refuse to acknowledge the reality that the devil is god of this world, that the universe is broken, that God's will is not done on earth most often.
We were born behind enemy lines and that means limitations.
You can't defuse my arguments by saying I got them from VPW. I worked a lot of these things for 50 years with my KJV and I don't care what theology says.
Hi Oldiesman. I noticed on another thread that you were briefly discussing believing and Hebrews 11, as we have been here.
Can you compare what you said about the other factors being involved in the process, along with the law of believing, with what I said here?
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, if you read the clip below:
This was a summary of what I was saying earlier in this thread about how in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
I think this is how we were taught the law of believing: in isolation and elimination all the other forces. Later we were to add the other forces into our perspective to make it match everyday reality better.
*/*/*
BTW, the thread where oldiesman's post appeared was:
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
10 minutes ago, Mike said:
When I heard things from VPW on God being limited, it sounded like I should check it out in the Bible. I found many places where it seemed to be saying that God indeed has done it this way, where He makes the rules, and He abides by them Himself. I lean on the many scriptures that indicate that while this spiritual war wages, things are not always like theology want it to be.
How do you handle Daniel chapter 9 and the obvious limitation and hindrances on the angels. I take that as God playing by His rules. But God is smarter with His budget than the devil is with his. God had foreknowledte and the devil doesn't. So God ALWAYS wins where He sets out to do something. People may lose things at times, even their lives. But God's purposes are never frustrated.
God's ways are not our ways. He seems to tell us in the scriptures that He has limitation in this spiritual war, but it is only temporary. At Christ's return things will change.
Right now we pray in hope "Thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven."
I think your theology is so skiddish about over doing on devils that you refuse to acknowledge the reality that the devil is god of this world, that the universe is broken, that God's will is not done on earth most often.
We were born behind enemy lines and that means limitations.
You can't defuse my arguments by saying I got them from VPW. I worked a lot of these things for 50 years with my KJV and I don't care what theology says.
I’m not attempting to defuse your arguments by saying you got them from wierwille - I said it sounds like! I will acknowledge your stupid thesis of bull-$hit is yours and yours alone.
Daniel 9 is a narrative like any othe in the Bible that alludes to the sovereignty of God - He is all powerful over angels and demons all must answer to Him.
You obviously never served in the military. Any good soldier knows there are no rules to war. Even if there were rules, do you honestly think the devil would follow them?
Games have rules. That takes you into Martindale territory. He tried to sell the idea that this was a game and not a war.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
As for believing, dumping tons of manure and hoping something beautiful will grow just isn't working for you.
First off, how much persistence did we need to get born again? To speak in tongues? So that's Saint Vic trying to cover up for his impotence in the spiritual world.
Second, is it possible for someone to be born again without knowing scripture?
Give you an example:
I went to the doctor because I was horribly tired all the time. The doctor took a blood test and sent the results to my house. I showed them to my mother, an LPN, and she thought they were bad news. All my blood cells were screwed up enough for me to need a blood transfusion.
I sent an email to my ex, explaining what my mother thought it was. A few days later, my ex calls me and spends 20 minutes telling me how to get born again. Not once did she quote scripture.
(I was found to have a rare form of lymphoma.)
So, you don't need persistence, not scripture to get born again, (all that's required is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart), so why would you need it for any other type of believing?
A these little bits and bobs are just Saint Vic's way of blaming you for his lying about keeping his promise.
You obviously never served in the military. Any good soldier knows there are no rules to war. Even if there were rules, do you honestly think the devil would follow them?
Games have rules. That takes you into Martindale territory. He tried to sell the idea that this was a game and not a war.
As for believing, dumping tons of manure and hoping something beautiful will grow just isn't working for you.
First off, how much persistence did we need to get born again? To speak in tongues? So that's Saint Vic trying to cover up for his impotence in the spiritual world.
Second, is it possible for someone to be born again without knowing scripture?
Give you an example:
I went to the doctor because I was horribly tired all the time. The doctor took a blood test and sent the results to my house. I showed them to my mother, an LPN, and she thought they were bad news. All my blood cells were screwed up enough for me to need a blood transfusion.
I sent an email to my ex, explaining what my mother thought it was. A few days later, my ex calls me and spends 20 minutes telling me how to get born again. Not once did she quote scripture.
(I was found to have a rare form of lymphoma.)
So, you don't need persistence, not scripture to get born again, (all that's required is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart), so why would you need it for any other type of believing?
A these little bits and bobs are just Saint Vic's way of blaming you for his lying about keeping his promise.
A captivating story, So_crates , thanks for sharing!
When I heard things from VPW on God being limited, it sounded like I should check it out in the Bible. I found many places where it seemed to be saying that God indeed has done it this way, where He makes the rules, and He abides by them Himself. I lean on the many scriptures that indicate that while this spiritual war wages, things are not always like theology want it to be.
So, considering you're letting a man who couldn't follow the simplest of God's rules (like keeping his pants zipped) interpret scripture to you, just how do you or Saint Vic know what God's rules are?
Hi Oldiesman. I noticed on another thread that you were briefly discussing believing and Hebrews 11, as we have been here.
Can you compare what you said about the other factors being involved in the process, along with the law of believing, with what I said here?
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, if you read the clip below:
This was a summary of what I was saying earlier in this thread about how in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
I think this is how we were taught the law of believing: in isolation and elimination all the other forces. Later we were to add the other forces into our perspective to make it match everyday reality better.
in your world of make-believe you can have all kinds of laws and other forces.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
I’ll say it again. In YOURimaginaryworld of make-believe, you can have all kinds of laws and other forces.
Here’s the thing, Mike. To support YOURthesis which incorporates the law of believing, YOU appeal to hard science – that deals with such things as chemistry, physics, or astronomy - things that can be observed and measured – YET- YOUdo not provide evidence – things observed or measured to support your thesis that there are other factors involved.
Science uses the five senses and logic. I don’t find you employing such means. Sadly, it seems the only counsel you offer if someone doesn’t get the desired results is to encourage them to continue to chase their own tail – to spend a whole lot of time and energy doing something but achieving nothing. Albert Einstein is credited with saying “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.”
Referring to it as “the law of believing” is misleading in two ways:
Deception # 1: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was an unvarying principle– a general or basic truth on which other truths or theories can be based – such as scientific principles …We speak of the laws of physics that are facts which have been deduced by empirical observations – these are principles – physical laws of matter, energy and the fundamental forces of nature that GOVERN matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. To govern is to exercise continuous sovereign authority over something or someone…Basically, to say that you’re operating the law of believing makes YOU the governing authority. Even if you want to keep up supposedly biblical appearances by mentioning “God”, it still implies God is compelled to accommodate anyone who knows how to use that power. The concept reduces God to functioning like a genie in a lamp who is obligated to do our bidding. In other words, you have more power and authority than God Almighty!
Deception #2: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was the ultimate rule, like a binding custom or practice that should be obeyed within a certain territory. This also assumes that anyone who uses the law of believing is deputized as a substitute for God’s authority – in effect you assume you have some of the power and authority of God.
In Acts 8 there is an interesting anomaly during the early days of evangelism. Simon a sorcerer who had amazed the people of Samaria was revered as powerful and God-like but when the gospel message of Jesus Christ came to his city he also believed and was baptized.
As we follow the story, it seems Simon was more interested in the great acts of power that accompanied the preaching of Philip, Peter, and John - rather than learning more about the Messiah or allowing Jesus Christ to truly reign as lord over his life. When he offered the apostles money for that power, Peter said to Simon “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought!” Salvation, signs, miracles, and wonders are from God ! They're not something we dole out - because they are not ours to give - or use as parlor tricks for entertainment or as sales promotions for the Gospel or PFAL…I think wierwille might have been a kindred spirit to Simon.
"Magical thinking is present when a person views an internal thought as having external significance and power. A thought, although private and unobservable, becomes a substitute for action. The logic of magical thinking says that thoughts are powerful, and therefore thinking certain thoughts will cause various consequences to occur in the outside world. Magical thinking is not confined by normal barriers between thought and actions, between private thinking and public knowledge, between what is internal and what is external. Nor is it limited by the logical connections that normal thinking posits between ideas. The best-known example of magical thinking is the young child who, when angry, will close his or her eyes with the thought of making the disciplining parent disappear. The logic in this childish behavior is: If I can’t see, I can’t be seen.
Magical thinking is common and considered normal in young children…Magical thinking is considered pathological when it persists beyond the age of its normal occurrence…Primary process thought patterns, including magical thinking, are thought to dominate the unconscious thought of neurotics…Obsessive-compulsives also indulge in magical thinking when they feel their thoughts can cause harm to others. The defense mechanism of undoing is predicated on magical thoughts, since wishing something makes it so…For example, the child who first hits an adult and then kisses the same person is convinced that the second behavior will undo the first; hence it is magical thinking."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Edwin Wallace, IV, M.D. is Professor of Psychiatry and Research Professor of Bioethics and Vice Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Health Behavior at the Medical College of Georgia. On page 984 of Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling , Wallace’s article titled PSYCHOANALYSIS AND RELIGION , makes a correlation with magical thinking:
The omnipotence of thoughts, a mechanism particularly favored by obsessive-compulsives…is the unconscious presupposition that the wish is equivalent to the deed and therefore that wishing alone can effect changes in one’s environment independently of any realistic or practical action. Freud believed that in the animistic-magical stage of cultural history, human beings ascribed omnipotence to themselves, while in the religious stage they transferred it to a deity and yet retained the idea that they could influence the god, through prayer and ritual, according to their wishes...
MIKE: ...in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
Do you mean controlled experiments? Forces aren't eliminated, rather, variables are controlled. Experiments need not be performed in a vacuum. This is scientific method 101. How could you be so far off the mark with this? Didn't you spend years fetching coffee, cleaning toilets and washing windows for "super star scientists"?
(Rhetorical questions. Bullshonta answers are not solicited.)
God's ways are not our ways. He seems to tell us in the scriptures that He has limitation in this spiritual war, but it is only temporary. At Christ's return things will change.
Where in the Bible does God seem to tell you He has limitations in this spiritual war?
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
In PFAL wierwille taught the law of believing was the greatest law in the universe and works for Saint and sinner alike. He never said anything about it being a very elementary level - and never mentioned other forces competing against it. You’re just like that snake in Genesis 3 - you’re changing what was taught in PFAL! Oh my gosh! You add or subtract or change PFAL - you no longer have PFAL. You have Mike Doctrine!
The spiritual battles in the OT are often ones of God just barely winning, but often with an abundance of cleverness and foresight. God knew beforehand how big to set His budget so that He could rescue the broken world from the devil. God’s budget is tight; tight enough to make it impossible for the adversary to rule HIS OWN WORLD very efficiently.Not knowing the future, the adversary wastes his budget on failed attempts to thwart God
What scripture gives you the idea God barely won in some spiritual battle?
Are there spiritual stats you looked at?
what makes you think God has to operate on a budget?
Never once have I heard VPW or anyone else in the ministry, or out of the ministry, bring up an idea like this.I have no idea where I got it from, but it just looks that way when I read the Bible. I think the Book of Job and it’s courtroom scenes may have first planted this idea. Also in that courtroom we see the devil being limited to not killing Job. Also, the many times God’s people in the Bible just barely got delivered at the last minute suggested a budget to me.
A budget is based on one’s income and expenses. What is God’s income and expenses?
also you’re describing limitations and deficiencies with the devil, Job and other believers. That may speak to financial, physical or power inadequacies concerning created brings - but what makes you think God is subject to any budgetary constraints?
In order for God to operate freely in the Garden with Adam, He had to allow that open door for the adversary to operate freely as well.
where does it say that in the Bible?
On 2/28/2023 at 10:13 AM, Mike said:
At the end of Eden this set of double doors was closed.
Genesis 3:22-24 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever” — therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
*/*/*
This is not any kind of proof, but it does answer a long standing question of many, and it is part of a pattern that I will be documenting. Please try to think of some "double door" or "bugetary" leaning scriptures yourself.
Where are the double doors mentioned in Genesis? Where’s that documentation you promised in February?
In Exodus
We see Moses’ rod turns into a snake and the court magicians rods do the same.Both God and the devil at work simultaneously, as both doors opened.
But you left out the part where Aaron’s snake swallowed up the magicians’ snakes!
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magiciansalso did the same things by their secret arts:12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said...Exodus 7
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I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
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Nathan_Jr
If an analogy must be inexhaustibly explained, decoded or clarified, then it's an ineffectual analogy. It's not REALLY an analogy at all.
An analogy is a comparison of two things for the purpose of clarification. The analogy itself is the clarifier.
Same goes for metaphors. If one must perform acrobatic logical leaps and imaginative jumps to hyper space to explain a metaphor, it's a poorly constructed and ineffectual metaphor.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves... and fiery school buses
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OldSkool
I dotn try to sort out their errors. I use scripture to avoid it all together.
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OldSkool
No, its no consolation what that false prophet said. Master his materials...what a waste of life.
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OldSkool
Or...not only I'd the analogy off base but the analogy is attempting to justify lies and make believe.
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chockfull
Wow this looks like the scripture Mike 3:20.
When you worship your own thoughts and the thoughts of a huckster then why not canonize your own thoughts?
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T-Bone
Once again, your trivialization of Almighty God leaves a lot to be desired.
As another rebuttal to your God-demeaning thesis, please review Romans 8…and note the chapter offers little insight or explanations of why bad stuff happened and continues to happen, other than verse 28 we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him :
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” j
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike – you sound a lot like wierwille in portraying the devil and his troops as having so much power as to often force God to respond in a certain way…read about the Heavenly Warrior in the book of Revelation, with ‘merely’ the sharp sword coming out of His mouth He vanquishes the opposition…reminds me of Genesis – God just said let there be light – and there was light – and the darkness fled:
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” a
a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Revelation 19 NIV
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Mike
Hi Oldiesman. I noticed on another thread that you were briefly discussing believing and Hebrews 11, as we have been here.
Can you compare what you said about the other factors being involved in the process, along with the law of believing, with what I said here?
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, if you read the clip below:
This was a summary of what I was saying earlier in this thread about how in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
I think this is how we were taught the law of believing: in isolation and elimination all the other forces. Later we were to add the other forces into our perspective to make it match everyday reality better.
*/*/*
BTW, the thread where oldiesman's post appeared was:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25455-religion-demands-acceptance-of-the-unprovable/#comment-631038
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Mike
Here is where I opined that the law of believing we were taught was at the very elementary level, and the law was considered in the simplest configuration, which is where no other forces are at work competing against our believing.
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Mike
When I heard things from VPW on God being limited, it sounded like I should check it out in the Bible. I found many places where it seemed to be saying that God indeed has done it this way, where He makes the rules, and He abides by them Himself. I lean on the many scriptures that indicate that while this spiritual war wages, things are not always like theology want it to be.
How do you handle Daniel chapter 9 and the obvious limitation and hindrances on the angels. I take that as God playing by His rules. But God is smarter with His budget than the devil is with his. God had foreknowledte and the devil doesn't. So God ALWAYS wins where He sets out to do something. People may lose things at times, even their lives. But God's purposes are never frustrated.
God's ways are not our ways. He seems to tell us in the scriptures that He has limitation in this spiritual war, but it is only temporary. At Christ's return things will change.
Right now we pray in hope "Thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven."
I think your theology is so skiddish about over doing on devils that you refuse to acknowledge the reality that the devil is god of this world, that the universe is broken, that God's will is not done on earth most often.
We were born behind enemy lines and that means limitations.
You can't defuse my arguments by saying I got them from VPW. I worked a lot of these things for 50 years with my KJV and I don't care what theology says.
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T-Bone
I’m not attempting to defuse your arguments by saying you got them from wierwille - I said it sounds like! I will acknowledge your stupid thesis of bull-$hit is yours and yours alone.
Daniel 9 is a narrative like any othe in the Bible that alludes to the sovereignty of God - He is all powerful over angels and demons all must answer to Him.
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So_crates
You obviously never served in the military. Any good soldier knows there are no rules to war. Even if there were rules, do you honestly think the devil would follow them?
Games have rules. That takes you into Martindale territory. He tried to sell the idea that this was a game and not a war.
As for believing, dumping tons of manure and hoping something beautiful will grow just isn't working for you.
First off, how much persistence did we need to get born again? To speak in tongues? So that's Saint Vic trying to cover up for his impotence in the spiritual world.
Second, is it possible for someone to be born again without knowing scripture?
Give you an example:
I went to the doctor because I was horribly tired all the time. The doctor took a blood test and sent the results to my house. I showed them to my mother, an LPN, and she thought they were bad news. All my blood cells were screwed up enough for me to need a blood transfusion.
I sent an email to my ex, explaining what my mother thought it was. A few days later, my ex calls me and spends 20 minutes telling me how to get born again. Not once did she quote scripture.
(I was found to have a rare form of lymphoma.)
So, you don't need persistence, not scripture to get born again, (all that's required is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart), so why would you need it for any other type of believing?
A these little bits and bobs are just Saint Vic's way of blaming you for his lying about keeping his promise.
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T-Bone
A captivating story, So_crates , thanks for sharing!
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waysider
And you think that's a good thing?
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So_crates
So, considering you're letting a man who couldn't follow the simplest of God's rules (like keeping his pants zipped) interpret scripture to you, just how do you or Saint Vic know what God's rules are?
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T-Bone
in your world of make-believe you can have all kinds of laws and other forces.
I’ll say it again. In YOUR imaginary world of make-believe, you can have all kinds of laws and other forces.
Here’s the thing, Mike. To support YOUR thesis which incorporates the law of believing, YOU appeal to hard science – that deals with such things as chemistry, physics, or astronomy - things that can be observed and measured – YET - YOU do not provide evidence – things observed or measured to support your thesis that there are other factors involved.
Science uses the five senses and logic. I don’t find you employing such means. Sadly, it seems the only counsel you offer if someone doesn’t get the desired results is to encourage them to continue to chase their own tail – to spend a whole lot of time and energy doing something but achieving nothing. Albert Einstein is credited with saying “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.”
Referring to it as “the law of believing” is misleading in two ways:
Deception # 1: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was an unvarying principle – a general or basic truth on which other truths or theories can be based – such as scientific principles …We speak of the laws of physics that are facts which have been deduced by empirical observations – these are principles – physical laws of matter, energy and the fundamental forces of nature that GOVERN matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. To govern is to exercise continuous sovereign authority over something or someone…Basically, to say that you’re operating the law of believing makes YOU the governing authority. Even if you want to keep up supposedly biblical appearances by mentioning “God”, it still implies God is compelled to accommodate anyone who knows how to use that power. The concept reduces God to functioning like a genie in a lamp who is obligated to do our bidding. In other words, you have more power and authority than God Almighty!
Deception #2: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was the ultimate rule, like a binding custom or practice that should be obeyed within a certain territory. This also assumes that anyone who uses the law of believing is deputized as a substitute for God’s authority – in effect you assume you have some of the power and authority of God.
In Acts 8 there is an interesting anomaly during the early days of evangelism. Simon a sorcerer who had amazed the people of Samaria was revered as powerful and God-like but when the gospel message of Jesus Christ came to his city he also believed and was baptized.
As we follow the story, it seems Simon was more interested in the great acts of power that accompanied the preaching of Philip, Peter, and John - rather than learning more about the Messiah or allowing Jesus Christ to truly reign as lord over his life. When he offered the apostles money for that power, Peter said to Simon “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought!” Salvation, signs, miracles, and wonders are from God ! They're not something we dole out - because they are not ours to give - or use as parlor tricks for entertainment or as sales promotions for the Gospel or PFAL…I think wierwille might have been a kindred spirit to Simon.
The law of believing is magical thinking.
A concise definition of magical thinking is given in an article by James R. Beck, Ph.D., a licensed clinical psychologist and a professor and the chair of the counseling department at Denver Seminary – in the book Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling, 2nd Edition published by Baker Academic , on page 708:
"Magical thinking is present when a person views an internal thought as having external significance and power. A thought, although private and unobservable, becomes a substitute for action. The logic of magical thinking says that thoughts are powerful, and therefore thinking certain thoughts will cause various consequences to occur in the outside world. Magical thinking is not confined by normal barriers between thought and actions, between private thinking and public knowledge, between what is internal and what is external. Nor is it limited by the logical connections that normal thinking posits between ideas. The best-known example of magical thinking is the young child who, when angry, will close his or her eyes with the thought of making the disciplining parent disappear. The logic in this childish behavior is: If I can’t see, I can’t be seen.
Magical thinking is common and considered normal in young children…Magical thinking is considered pathological when it persists beyond the age of its normal occurrence…Primary process thought patterns, including magical thinking, are thought to dominate the unconscious thought of neurotics…Obsessive-compulsives also indulge in magical thinking when they feel their thoughts can cause harm to others. The defense mechanism of undoing is predicated on magical thoughts, since wishing something makes it so…For example, the child who first hits an adult and then kisses the same person is convinced that the second behavior will undo the first; hence it is magical thinking."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Edwin Wallace, IV, M.D. is Professor of Psychiatry and Research Professor of Bioethics and Vice Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Health Behavior at the Medical College of Georgia. On page 984 of Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling , Wallace’s article titled PSYCHOANALYSIS AND RELIGION , makes a correlation with magical thinking:
The omnipotence of thoughts, a mechanism particularly favored by obsessive-compulsives…is the unconscious presupposition that the wish is equivalent to the deed and therefore that wishing alone can effect changes in one’s environment independently of any realistic or practical action. Freud believed that in the animistic-magical stage of cultural history, human beings ascribed omnipotence to themselves, while in the religious stage they transferred it to a deity and yet retained the idea that they could influence the god, through prayer and ritual, according to their wishes...
End of excerpts
Edited by T-BoneTypos
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Nathan_Jr
MIKE: ...in science the idea is to control experiments so that the many other forces that at work are eliminated, and then one particular force can be studied in isolation.
Do you mean controlled experiments? Forces aren't eliminated, rather, variables are controlled. Experiments need not be performed in a vacuum. This is scientific method 101. How could you be so far off the mark with this? Didn't you spend years fetching coffee, cleaning toilets and washing windows for "super star scientists"?
(Rhetorical questions. Bullshonta answers are not solicited.)
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T-Bone
Where in the Bible does God seem to tell you He has limitations in this spiritual war?
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T-Bone
In PFAL wierwille taught the law of believing was the greatest law in the universe and works for Saint and sinner alike. He never said anything about it being a very elementary level - and never mentioned other forces competing against it. You’re just like that snake in Genesis 3 - you’re changing what was taught in PFAL! Oh my gosh! You add or subtract or change PFAL - you no longer have PFAL. You have Mike Doctrine!
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T-Bone
What scripture gives you the idea God barely won in some spiritual battle?
Are there spiritual stats you looked at?
what makes you think God has to operate on a budget?
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T-Bone
A budget is based on one’s income and expenses. What is God’s income and expenses?
also you’re describing limitations and deficiencies with the devil, Job and other believers. That may speak to financial, physical or power inadequacies concerning created brings - but what makes you think God is subject to any budgetary constraints?
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T-Bone
where does it say that in the Bible?
Where are the double doors mentioned in Genesis? Where’s that documentation you promised in February?
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T-Bone
oops double post!
Edited by T-Bonedouble post eliminator
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T-Bone
But you left out the part where Aaron’s snake swallowed up the magicians’ snakes!
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magiciansalso did the same things by their secret arts:12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said...Exodus 7
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