By all accounts until the ressurection of Jesus Christ it wouldve appeared that satan had indeed won the war. For the most part in the Old Testament he carried what appeared to be the upper hand. I mean at times it came down to a very thin margin between God and satans victory. Our point of view is vastly different from what's found in the Old Testament. ...
Yes, that very thin margin is the budget end of this. The double doors are merely a timelike extention of the same idea of a tight budget. The doors are only open for a minimal time.
Yes, Jesus rose above this, and the first century church rose above it for a time (like TWI-1 in the 70s) and then later lost it as James was killed, Barnabas fought with Paul, Peter was slack with the Gentiles, and all forsook Paul.
So, even in Acts, several years pass after Pentecost, the major miracles became more scarce as the chapters grind on and Paul is eventually taken out.
Now you are asking the impossible because how can anyone find verses which contradict a concept that's not in scripture to begin with. You put the double door analogy in there to support your point of view in holding up wierwilles doctrines and pflap.
No these patterns I saw had nothing to do with PFAL or anything like that.
I was unhappy with the lack of miracles, even for stretches of months in the 70s, but much worse in the 80s. I wanted more in my life, but as time went by I got less, and saw less with others.
I did not expect leadership to be at all supportive of this budget hunch of mine.
They would all simply mechanically react with "all nine all the time" and then resume with shoving under the rug the scarcity of miracles in their twigs or branches or areas.
I only dared share this with close, smart friends. That pretty much excluded most Way Corps. I thought I might be going against VPW as I formulated this many years ago.
Yes, that very thin margin is the budget end of this. The double doors are merely a timelike extention of the same idea of a tight budget. The doors are only open for a minimal time.
Yes, Jesus rose above this, and the first century church rose above it for a time (like TWI-1 in the 70s) and then later lost it as James was killed, Barnabas fought with Paul, Peter was slack with the Gentiles, and all forsook Paul.
So, even in Acts, several years pass after Pentecost, the major miracles became more scarce as the chapters grind on and Paul is eventually taken out.
Pure, speculative, conjecture. And Im not expecting you to exhume the apostle Paul, but my Lord, do you ever just read what's written without reading PFLAP into scripture?
You have no idea what happened in the first century, except a few verses stating that people had turned away from Paul. And he was a convict so that shouldve been expected, no? The problem you have with that bullshonta 1942 promise is you guys act like Christianity stalled from those few verses that state folks had turned away from Paul and then nothin much of note happened for a couple thousand years until wierwille came along and straightened it all out. That's nuts.
No these patterns I saw had nothing to do with PFAL or anything like that.
I was unhappy with the lack of miracles, even for stretches of months in the 70s, but much worse in the 80s. I wanted more in my life, but as time went by I got less, and saw less with others.
I did not expect leadership to be at all supportive of this budget hunch of mine.
They would all simply mechanically react with "all nine all the time" and then resume with shoving under the rug the scarcity of miracles in their twigs or branches or areas.
I only dared share this with close, smart friends. That pretty much excluded most Way Corps. I thought I might be going against VPW as I formulated this many years ago.
Theres seldom a miracle in TWI because its an abusive cult loaded with doctrinal error. That'll do it.
First mistake is I did NOT say:
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both 'doors.'"
First mistake, yes you did.
Look at the examples you presented and then look at your "two doors" claim.
Oh, by the way, revelation is three manifestations (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of spirits). So that's five manifestations you claim opens "doors". Do we open "doors when we SIT?
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
I think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done.
And just as I originally asked do manifestations trigger this opening? As, most examples you present involve some type of manifestation.
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
Please notice that I said these peaks I am noticing are twin "major interventions with power."
I am not talking about someone operating the 9 manifestations in general.
I think you are, as you've also mention revelation as triggering the door opening.
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
Yes, miracles and some healings can be pretty major, but they can also be lesser in manifested power. As I said above, once the doors are open a human may be involved in doing some of the work.
A human has to be involved in the work from the jump. Or have you forgot that our believing starts the ball rolling.
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
With discerning of spirits, I think you are stretching the door analogy way out of shape, just like someone stretched the budget analogy the other day. The doors are doors of opportunity, not like the water-tight doors of a ship's compartments as you are over-envisioning.
So why isn't the opportunity always there? If there's nothing stopping devil spirits why should they hold off?
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
Cherry picked usually has a evil essence attached to it. It is false evidence.
It is like saying, "Mike, there are a lot of verses that directly contradict the double doors idea, and you avoided picking them."
I asked you a group of questions earlier that you poo pooed.
Add to that list, when the apostles spoke in tongues for the first time, God opened the door and the devil responded, how?
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
Ok, then if you are going to accuse me of that, let me see the verses that I did not pick, but which directly contradict the double doors idea.
Now your getting ridiculous.
First off, you can't prove a negative.
Second, burden of proof lies with you. It not my job to convince you you're wrong, it's your job to convince me you're right.
38 minutes ago, Mike said:
I don't mean verses that simply lack clues that say "double doors."
I mean verses that say pretty directly that the double doors idea can't be valid.
You mean like all those verses you produced showing the words "double doors"?
First mistake is I did NOT say:
Both miracles and healing, according to Mike, open both 'doors.'"
I think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done.
Does rationalizing how one is not wrong equate to being offended?
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
think what happens is God strategically opens the doors, and shuts them as soon as possible. While open angels and devils rush through the doors to do their intervention work. Also, at this time humans may be involved in getting work done.
*/*/*
Please notice that I said these peaks I am noticing are twin "major interventions with power."
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
It helps to be able to identify error so one doesnt waste a long trip riding shotgun with error driving. But go straight around the curve and take the first right on the left.
No. The purpose of an analogy is to teach an aspect of reality, which is distant and difficult to understand, with an easy to understand part of familiar reality.
So I picked budget and door, which are based in familiar reality.
I still have the budget verses to post. I am trying to go through the list to find the easiest and most obvious ones, and refrain from posting the subtle ones.
It helps to be able to identify error so one doesnt waste a long trip riding shotgun with error driving. But go straight around the curve and take the first right on the left.
By which standard(s) or authority(ies) do you identify exactly where the Gnostics were in error, as opposed to where they got it right?
By which standard(s) or authority(ies) do you identify exactly where the Gnostics were in error, as opposed to where they got it right?
The heavy workload of doing that separation of truth from error is the reason I never looked into the Gnostics. There was no need. I didn't run into any at Starbucks.
I know wierwille was obsessed with Gnosticism- remember his repetitive schtick in PFAL - that you can know that you know that you know. Gnosticism is salvation through secret knowledge…and your double doors / open doors stuff is similar to Gnosticism’s emanations and the strict separation of spirit and matter.
I asked you a group of questions earlier that you poo pooed.
Yes. The reason I somewhat ignored it was the formatting sucked and too confusing to my eyes, and the group was too large.
Trim the number way down, and make it easier on the eyes, and I may feel like answering them.
I am hoping you will see that most of your questions should melt away if you carefully read this:
This is important about this idea:
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Don't ask me anything about how the limitations work. I simple see them in the scriptures. I posted half, and the other half is coming.
By which standard(s) or authority(ies) do you identify exactly where the Gnostics were in error, as opposed to where they got it right?
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
The heavy workload of doing that separation of truth from error is the reason I never looked into the Gnostics. There was no need. I didn't run into any at Starbucks.
I think you’re getting ideologies mixed up. While there may be some similarities across religions - Biblical theology and Gnosticism are antithetical on a couple of your topics.
Christianity speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Gnosticism seeks salvation through special knowledge.
Christianity: The Word became flesh.
Gnosticism: spirit is pure, the flesh is evil - never the twain shall meet.
I know wierwille was obsessed with Gnosticism- remember his repetitive schtick in PFAL - that you can know that you know that you know. Gnosticism is salvation through secret knowledge…and your double doors / open doors stuff is similar to Gnosticism’s emanations and the strict separation of spirit and matter.
....similar...
harrumph!
I tend to think when I hear that phrase that Jesus must have known that he knew that he knew. The number of repetitions is a mere figure of speech in my mind. Why stop at three?
In what I got from VPW, to know that I know that I know... simply means I have the maximum allowable "amount" of surety. I use the word "surety" a lot. It is a fundamental concept in science.
VPW did not teach anything like salvation through secret knowledge. Romans 10:9 has been getting around for centuries now. It was secret before Martin Luther, though.
VPW did rightly teach that lots of error invaded the church, making the truth secret to the extent the RC church could suppress it. That the dead were dead and unconscious was secret knowledge to me. It made my life more whole to know that. So, yes wholeness of knowledge can obviously benefit if suppressed knowledge is made available.
But eternal life wholeness salvation, we were taught was a gift, and easy to get, and that lots of us already had it.
I think you’re getting ideologies mixed up. While there may be some similarities across religions - Biblical theology and Gnosticism are antithetical on a couple of your topics.
Christianity speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Gnosticism seeks salvation through special knowledge.
Christianity: The Word became flesh.
Gnosticism: spirit is pure, the flesh is evil - never the twain shall meet.
Well thanks for the summary.
I would have assumed that the special knowledge they had in mind was Jesus raised from the dead. If it was something else, and to the exclusion of the resurrection, then they sound like hooky pook, and not worth my time.
Yes. The reason I somewhat ignored it was the formatting sucked and too confusing to my eyes, and the group was too large.
Trim the number way down, and make it easier on the eyes, and I may feel like answering them.
I am hoping you will see that most of your questions should melt away if you carefully read this:
This is important about this idea:
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Don't ask me anything about how the limitations work. I simple see them in the scriptures. I posted half, and the other half is coming.
Limitations implies restrictions based on rules , specific set points, some standard. You claim you see these limitations in Scripture but you don’t cite specific verses.
You suggest there are limitations that God is subject to - but have NOT shown it from Scripture. You talk like you know how angels and demons work - but that’s all it is - it’s just YOU talking.
Limitations implies restrictions based on rules , specific set points, some standard. You claim you see these limitations in Scripture but you don’t cite specific verses.
You suggest there are limitations that God is subject to - but have NOT shown it from Scripture. You talk like you know how angels and demons work - but that’s all it is - it’s just YOU talking.
Right. The limitations in amount of power are yet to be posted.
What I posted, under the door analogy, were twin peaks on a relatively flat background, which are limitations in time. Short bursts of power.
But eternal life wholeness salvation, we were taught was a gift, and easy to get, and that lots of us already had it.
Right! So who needs wierwille and his pontificating PFAL up to the Advanced Class? Totally unnecessary bull-$hit to generate “ministry income”, and build a hierarchy of knowledge / status in The Way International cult.
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Mike
Yes, that very thin margin is the budget end of this. The double doors are merely a timelike extention of the same idea of a tight budget. The doors are only open for a minimal time.
Yes, Jesus rose above this, and the first century church rose above it for a time (like TWI-1 in the 70s) and then later lost it as James was killed, Barnabas fought with Paul, Peter was slack with the Gentiles, and all forsook Paul.
So, even in Acts, several years pass after Pentecost, the major miracles became more scarce as the chapters grind on and Paul is eventually taken out.
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Mike
No these patterns I saw had nothing to do with PFAL or anything like that.
I was unhappy with the lack of miracles, even for stretches of months in the 70s, but much worse in the 80s. I wanted more in my life, but as time went by I got less, and saw less with others.
I did not expect leadership to be at all supportive of this budget hunch of mine.
They would all simply mechanically react with "all nine all the time" and then resume with shoving under the rug the scarcity of miracles in their twigs or branches or areas.
I only dared share this with close, smart friends. That pretty much excluded most Way Corps. I thought I might be going against VPW as I formulated this many years ago.
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OldSkool
Pure, speculative, conjecture. And Im not expecting you to exhume the apostle Paul, but my Lord, do you ever just read what's written without reading PFLAP into scripture?
You have no idea what happened in the first century, except a few verses stating that people had turned away from Paul. And he was a convict so that shouldve been expected, no? The problem you have with that bullshonta 1942 promise is you guys act like Christianity stalled from those few verses that state folks had turned away from Paul and then nothin much of note happened for a couple thousand years until wierwille came along and straightened it all out. That's nuts.
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OldSkool
Theres seldom a miracle in TWI because its an abusive cult loaded with doctrinal error. That'll do it.
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So_crates
First mistake, yes you did.
Look at the examples you presented and then look at your "two doors" claim.
Oh, by the way, revelation is three manifestations (word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discerning of spirits). So that's five manifestations you claim opens "doors". Do we open "doors when we SIT?
And just as I originally asked do manifestations trigger this opening? As, most examples you present involve some type of manifestation.
I think you are, as you've also mention revelation as triggering the door opening.
A human has to be involved in the work from the jump. Or have you forgot that our believing starts the ball rolling.
So why isn't the opportunity always there? If there's nothing stopping devil spirits why should they hold off?
I asked you a group of questions earlier that you poo pooed.
Add to that list, when the apostles spoke in tongues for the first time, God opened the door and the devil responded, how?
Now your getting ridiculous.
First off, you can't prove a negative.
Second, burden of proof lies with you. It not my job to convince you you're wrong, it's your job to convince me you're right.
You mean like all those verses you produced showing the words "double doors"?
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OldSkool
So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
So, Mike, does Jesus also open the doors to let the enemy in to harm God's people?
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Nathan_Jr
Uh-oh
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Rocky
Does rationalizing how one is not wrong equate to being offended?
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Mike
This is important about this idea:
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
Edited by MikeAnd where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
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T-Bone
This sounds a lot like Gnosticism
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OldSkool
Pick an analogy based in reality
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Mike
Were they wrong about everything?
I have not looked into that at all.
I never felt the need to even wikipedia them.
But see you folks are nearly obsessed with them.
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OldSkool
It helps to be able to identify error so one doesnt waste a long trip riding shotgun with error driving. But go straight around the curve and take the first right on the left.
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Mike
No. The purpose of an analogy is to teach an aspect of reality, which is distant and difficult to understand, with an easy to understand part of familiar reality.
So I picked budget and door, which are based in familiar reality.
I still have the budget verses to post. I am trying to go through the list to find the easiest and most obvious ones, and refrain from posting the subtle ones.
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Mike
By which standard(s) or authority(ies) do you identify exactly where the Gnostics were in error, as opposed to where they got it right?
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Mike
The heavy workload of doing that separation of truth from error is the reason I never looked into the Gnostics. There was no need. I didn't run into any at Starbucks.
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T-Bone
I know wierwille was obsessed with Gnosticism- remember his repetitive schtick in PFAL - that you can know that you know that you know. Gnosticism is salvation through secret knowledge…and your double doors / open doors stuff is similar to Gnosticism’s emanations and the strict separation of spirit and matter.
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Mike
Yes. The reason I somewhat ignored it was the formatting sucked and too confusing to my eyes, and the group was too large.
Trim the number way down, and make it easier on the eyes, and I may feel like answering them.
I am hoping you will see that most of your questions should melt away if you carefully read this:
This is important about this idea:
The budget and the doors are mere analogies to explain the pattern.
They are NOT statements about the structure or the laws in the spiritual realm, so please don't make "extensions" of them. That would be stretching the analogy to the point of breaking.
*/*/*
What budget and doors refer to is LIMITATIONS.
Limitations in both amount and time.
Where my analogous term "budget" refers to amount.
And where my analogous term "doors" refers to time.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Don't ask me anything about how the limitations work. I simple see them in the scriptures. I posted half, and the other half is coming.
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T-Bone
I think you’re getting ideologies mixed up. While there may be some similarities across religions - Biblical theology and Gnosticism are antithetical on a couple of your topics.
Christianity speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Gnosticism seeks salvation through special knowledge.
Christianity: The Word became flesh.
Gnosticism: spirit is pure, the flesh is evil - never the twain shall meet.
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Mike
....similar...
harrumph!
I tend to think when I hear that phrase that Jesus must have known that he knew that he knew. The number of repetitions is a mere figure of speech in my mind. Why stop at three?
In what I got from VPW, to know that I know that I know... simply means I have the maximum allowable "amount" of surety. I use the word "surety" a lot. It is a fundamental concept in science.
VPW did not teach anything like salvation through secret knowledge. Romans 10:9 has been getting around for centuries now. It was secret before Martin Luther, though.
VPW did rightly teach that lots of error invaded the church, making the truth secret to the extent the RC church could suppress it. That the dead were dead and unconscious was secret knowledge to me. It made my life more whole to know that. So, yes wholeness of knowledge can obviously benefit if suppressed knowledge is made available.
But eternal life wholeness salvation, we were taught was a gift, and easy to get, and that lots of us already had it.
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Mike
Well thanks for the summary.
I would have assumed that the special knowledge they had in mind was Jesus raised from the dead. If it was something else, and to the exclusion of the resurrection, then they sound like hooky pook, and not worth my time.
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T-Bone
Limitations implies restrictions based on rules , specific set points, some standard. You claim you see these limitations in Scripture but you don’t cite specific verses.
You suggest there are limitations that God is subject to - but have NOT shown it from Scripture. You talk like you know how angels and demons work - but that’s all it is - it’s just YOU talking.
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Mike
Right. The limitations in amount of power are yet to be posted.
What I posted, under the door analogy, were twin peaks on a relatively flat background, which are limitations in time. Short bursts of power.
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T-Bone
Right! So who needs wierwille and his pontificating PFAL up to the Advanced Class? Totally unnecessary bull-$hit to generate “ministry income”, and build a hierarchy of knowledge / status in The Way International cult.
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