“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
“Faith is the surrender of the mind, it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other animals. It's our need to believe and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. ... Out of all the virtues, all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated.”
Hitchens does have a point. I wish I could read the minds of our dog and cat – they seem so content. How do they pull it off? I’m envious. I’ve got a lot of unnecessary baggage cluttering up my head – and I worry too much.
Probably it can be boiled down to one word: trust.
They trust you to provide for their needs. Unlike feral felines and canines.
I think you’re right…and oddly enough our cat is or rather was a feral cat. We adopted him 3 years ago. First 3 days I thought he was a mute. Then while I’m cleaning out his litter box he got on a chair nearby and meowed at me . I was floored. Now I’m a cat valet - he meows when he wants food or wants a window or door opened.
Faith is underestimated. God has things well done. There's no worries cause things not seen are still very real.
You just proved Hitchins point didn’t you? With absolutely no evidence at all, you proclaim, “…things not seen are still very real.” What provable evidence do you have, other than having just read about in some book, or trusting in a soul you decided to harken to?
Wierwille made known that god told him he, god, would teach him, VPW, the word like it had never been known since the first century if he, vpw, would teach it to others?, (alot of he pronouns in that sentence.) Can you show me the proof that god never told him that? Or to the contrary, show proof it is a true statement? Since neither is provable I can believe either one or dismiss either one, correct?
The same can be said about Christ coming back to earth; of course, this assumes he departed the first time….another thread for another time. Other than reading in the bible about Christ coming back for his saints, what demonstratable evidence do you have collaborating it? None I submit. If you do please present it.
What evidence do you have if you confess Jesus as lord and believe that he was raised by god from the dead, you will be be saved? Did you receive a congratulations card from on high to prove it?
What evidence can you present that when a women looked back at something, she was turned into a pillar of salt? Did your Morton’s salt shaker say its ingredients were Lot’s wife?
The bible claims you can do the works of Christ, so how many people do you know who choose to leave their fishing boats at home, and troll for fish as they strolled across the top of the lake? If that is too far fetched for you, how many sailors have you heard of, who’s ship was sunk, decided to walk away and head for shore? And at the same time assure their mates not to fear, but to also walk with them to safety?
I was floored. Now I’m a cat valet - he meows when he wants food or wants a window or door opened.
It's a learned behavior. Kittens do instinctively meow when they are little but they grow out of it unless it's reinforced. There's some sort of parallel there to this thread. I'm just not real clear on it, though.
Probably it can be boiled down to one word: trust.
They trust you to provide for their needs. Unlike feral felines and canines.
2 hours ago, waysider said:
It's a learned behavior. Kittens do instinctively meow when they are little but they grow out of it unless it's reinforced. There's some sort of parallel there to this thread. I'm just not real clear on it, though.
Give me a little time and I could come up with some correlation
Learned behavior is probably the easiest to find similarities with this thread. As the thread title states, religion demands acceptance of the unprovable. I think that’s true but oddly enough some folks are drawn to religion anyway – regardless of the demands – and that’s something I find fascinating. Why?
I’m a sucker for You Tube ‘tutorials’ on cats and dogs. I remember one video on 8 or 9 things people don’t know about cats – that said cats meow to communicate something to people – and that it’s not usually used for cat-to-cat communication. Don’t know if there’s anything to that – but if it’s learned behavior it makes sense to me. We got our feral cat from a local animal shelter – he was about 8 months old. They told us he was a little shy being a feral cat but the person who brought the cat in remarked how friendly he was in getting handouts from the neighborhood. So, the cat discovered certain actions (like meowing) got him food – and now I’m on board with his learned behavior – so I’m trained too – whatever – maybe we both get something out of it – I earn my cat’s trust to be the best cat valet I can be.
Maybe some things about religion are learned behavior. What do religious folks get out of it? In The Case for God by Karen Armstrong she says in most premodern cultures there were two recognized ways of thinking, speaking and acquiring knowledge – the ancient Greeks called them mythos and logos. Both were essential and considered complementary rather than in conflict with each other. Each had its own sphere of competence. Logos – reason – was the pragmatic mode of thought that empowered folks to function effectively in the world – forward-looking- always on the lookout to make efficient weapons, tools, better controls, invent and improve stuff. Logos was essential for the survival of our species. But it had its limitations – it couldn’t alleviate human grief or find meaning and purpose in struggles.
That’s where mythos come in. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell came up recently on another thread. Armstrong made some references to The Power of Myth too. She said currently we live in a society of scientific logos – and in popular jargon a myth is something that is not true. But in the past myth was not a self-indulgent fantasy – and has been called a primitive form of psychology – designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche – to enter the labyrinth of their own minds and fight personal demons. Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of the mind. Myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that followers could imitate them in the same way…Religion, therefore, was not primarily something that people thought but something they did.
End of ‘excerpts’ from The Case for God
~ ~ ~ ~
As Christopher Hitchens said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
“Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
I no longer have a fundamentalists view of the Bible. I don’t look at the Bible as having a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. And personally, I find nothing in it that infuriates my mind. I try to understand it from its ancient cultural basis – folks trying to deal with the inexplicable. I like the freedom to investigate stuff for myself and consider other viewpoints. I may never get definitive answers on anything – but I keep at it anyway – because I keep figuring out there’s more questions to ask - and sometimes wind up reframing the problem (whatever the particular issue is that I'm exploring).
Now going full circle – I found another Hitchens quote that ties it all together with what I’ve been talking about – religion, cats and dogs:
“Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.”
― Christopher Hitchens, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever
This is freakin’ amazing – there’s at least two distinct religions practiced in our home – our dog thinks me and my wife are gods. And my wife and I practice the ancient Egyptian religion of worshipping our cat.
Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Other than the bible stating that something is, there is no other evidence of its existence. Hebrews tells its followers as much. They are told that even though there is no proof of something, you must believe it, no matter how illogical it may be.
Take for example Mary bearing a son because she has been impregnated by an invisible god. Apparently god had to perform this miracle because he had created some very sinful people who rebeled against him. Mind you, this all powerful god had made these people in his own likeness and image. Obviously god had some fatal flaws in his character that he passed on to the people he made in his likeness, because they rose up and sinned against him. According to him these flawed people he made in his own image had to be annihilated and wiped off the face of the earth. He apparently could not stand to be with those he had given life to, so After killing them all, except for a chosen few, he once again allowed them to repopulate and to live sgain.
But alas, they also had a sin image in themselves also, and he was tempted to kill them all again (one would think the creator would learn from his first mistake, but not so.) Awe, but he so loved them in spite of their wicked ways, he decided he would not kill them, but send his only begotten son, via a pregnant girl, and have him tortured and crucified. (Wow..a lot of suffering and death follow in the wake of this god.) Somehow, we are expected to believe that having his only son murdered, made god feel good again about himself and the sinful people he had already created. Now all you have to do is beg for his forgiveness by repenting, and all our crazy living will be wiped away.
Like the old saying goes, you can’t make this stuff up. Somehow we have allowed ourselves to be tricked into believing such outrageous claims. Who ever wrote the bible must have a hollywood background.
I think Christopher Hitchins said it best:
“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
“Faith is the surrender of the mind, it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other animals. It's our need to believe and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. ... Out of all the virtues, all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated.”
Reading Hebrews 11 again without TWI glasses on is pretty eye-opening, i.e. that having faith doesn't always bring results. Just look at all those who had faith and never saw results ... so obviously, there can be other forces at work simultaneously.
Reading Hebrews 11 again without TWI glasses on is pretty eye-opening, i.e. that having faith doesn't always bring results. Just look at all those who had faith and never saw results ... so obviously, there can be other forces at work simultaneously.
When I questioned how "faith" was defined, my fellowship commander, who was still trapped in his 1970s era Corps "commitment," said,
"Faith is what we HAVE, believing is what we DO."
Not much of a definition, but it may sound familiar to many here.
I was given a similar answer when I asked, "What is religion?"
His said, "Man made....mmmmph."
(Huh?)
I'm thinking the Way took things too broadly. For example, pressed down, shaken together and running over was taken as a principle of giving and receiving. If you looked at the context it was speaking in reference to forgiveness.
Now as to the title deed verse: what if that was referring only to receiving holy spirit and salvation (which are basically the same thing)?
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
I don’t deny there are things science and reason can’t explain. I have participated in levitations where heavy furniture began floating in mid air. Also played with an ouji board and it answered question after question. Friends have participated in seances where a medium was able to contact dead relatives. Anyone who denies such things happening miss the mark. Science 101 has no explanation for such happenings.
One explanation, which makes sense to me, is there are unknown powers, called spirits, that maybe responsible for these events. Who or what they are cannot be explained by science.
What I do not agree with is establishing a religion based on spirits by saying some of the spirits are good and others bad. That you have to believe your salvation is dependent on believing one of them.
I was assuming we're going by what the scriptures say about it. If not, how are you defining it?
First off, it refers to the title deed to things hoped for. What things? A Corvette stingray? Living at the Playboy mansion?
As I said in the follow up post, I think the author is speaking only about salvation.
The second question I would ask is if the just live (Zoe) by faith/believing (pistis) then why isn't the ministry's emphasis on strengthening that faith/believing? Rather, the ministry's emphasis is more on marking up bibles with Greek words.
First off, it refers to the title deed to things hoped for. What things? A Corvette stingray? Living at the Playboy mansion?
As I said in the follow up post, I think the author is speaking only about salvation.
The second question I would ask is if the just live (Zoe) by faith/believing (pistis) then why isn't the ministry's emphasis on strengthening that faith/believing? Rather, the ministry's emphasis is more on marking up bibles with Greek words.
When chaper 11 of Hebrews is read in its entirety nothing is mentioned about salvation.
When chaper 11 of Hebrews is read in its entirety nothing is mentioned about salvation.
The last verse of Hebrews 10 mentions faith and salvation
However, I'm not going to try to defend the undefendable. I base my thoughts on an educated guess, that the Way often takes what the bible says too broadly.
What do you think the "things" mentioned in Hebrews 1:1 are?
The last verse of Hebrews 10 mentions faith and salvation
However, I'm not going to try to defend the undefendable. I base my thoughts on an educated guess, that the Way often takes what the bible says too broadly.
What do you think the "things" mentioned in Hebrews 1:1 are?
Your mention of Hebrews 10 encouraged me to read it, and boy, does it pack a wallop. Specifically, verse 26 talks about abandoning the once-held faith. I believe this is what Catholics mean when they talk about the "unforgivable sin" and I have heard it said by more than one Catholic that this is what they believe the unforgivable sin really is. I don't remember TWI ever suggesting this theme. Below is a short commentary on the verse (and it's scary):
[26]"If we sin willfully": He speaks of the sin of willful apostasy from the known truth; after which, as we can not be baptized again, we can not expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism: but we have rather all manner of reason to look for a dreadful judgment; the more because apostates from the known truth, seldom or never have the grace to return to it.
You just proved Hitchins point didn’t you? With absolutely no evidence at all, you proclaim, “…things not seen are still very real.” What provable evidence do you have, other than having just read about in some book, or trusting in a soul you decided to harken to?
I have evidence, get your own. It's not out of some book. The only "soul" I harken to is my own.
I can't provide any evidence that you seem to be asking for. I thought I knew some things once, until the Spirit moved inside of me. Can't prove it to anyone except for those who know the same kind of deal.
I have evidence, get your own. It's not out of some book. The only "soul" I harken to is my own.
I can't provide any evidence that you seem to be asking for. I thought I knew some things once, until the Spirit moved inside of me. Can't prove it to anyone except for those who know the same kind of deal.
I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their development, they decided to believe in a god or gods. I was in that boat myself. Being born into a Catholic family, religion was crammed down my throat from a very young age. I hated all the rules of having to eat this, pray in a certain position, recognize certain days, confess my sins to a man behind a screen, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to reject it but still held the belief there was a god.
Sometime later, as I was eating lunch in a resturant, a guy sat next to me and began to tell me about a god that was completely different than the Catholic god. This random meeting began a 20 sum year association with TWI.
At first TWI filled me with peace and tranquility, but then realized they too had crazy rules that must be obeyed. And not adhering to them would force god to remove his hedge of protection from me.
So I checked other religions out, but found they all had some hook, that when swallowed, forced me to recognize some aspect of god that made no sense.
This got me to reason that if each religion had completely different requirements to satisfy god, which one was right? Then I threw in different faiths, which didn’t even worship the same god, and scratched my head in confusion.
Then I came to the conclusion that none had any idea of what they were talking about, as there are thousands of different Christian religions alone, not including all the other faiths. Which one worships the one true god? Impossible to determine.
So my logical conclusion was there is no god. I had attempted to reason through mounds of different dogmas to find god, but all it all brought was confusion.
Now my mind is cleared. I do not have to choose one god over the other. Peace and tranquility.
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Stayed Too Long
I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their de
T-Bone
Give me a little time and I could come up with some correlation Learned behavior is probably the easiest to find similarities with this thread. As the thread title states, religion demands accep
T-Bone
I think you’re right…and oddly enough our cat is or rather was a feral cat. We adopted him 3 years ago. First 3 days I thought he was a mute. Then while I’m cleaning out his litter box he got on a cha
waysider
I started reading the Bible and thought to myself, "There sure was a lot of begatting going on".
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T-Bone
Hitchens does have a point. I wish I could read the minds of our dog and cat – they seem so content. How do they pull it off? I’m envious. I’ve got a lot of unnecessary baggage cluttering up my head – and I worry too much.
Edited by T-BoneSpelling Hitchens
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cman
Faith is underestimated. God has things well done. There's no worries cause things not seen are still very real.
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Rocky
Probably it can be boiled down to one word: trust.
They trust you to provide for their needs. Unlike feral felines and canines.
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T-Bone
I think you’re right…and oddly enough our cat is or rather was a feral cat. We adopted him 3 years ago. First 3 days I thought he was a mute. Then while I’m cleaning out his litter box he got on a chair nearby and meowed at me . I was floored. Now I’m a cat valet - he meows when he wants food or wants a window or door opened.
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Stayed Too Long
You just proved Hitchins point didn’t you? With absolutely no evidence at all, you proclaim, “…things not seen are still very real.” What provable evidence do you have, other than having just read about in some book, or trusting in a soul you decided to harken to?
Wierwille made known that god told him he, god, would teach him, VPW, the word like it had never been known since the first century if he, vpw, would teach it to others?, (alot of he pronouns in that sentence.) Can you show me the proof that god never told him that? Or to the contrary, show proof it is a true statement? Since neither is provable I can believe either one or dismiss either one, correct?
The same can be said about Christ coming back to earth; of course, this assumes he departed the first time….another thread for another time. Other than reading in the bible about Christ coming back for his saints, what demonstratable evidence do you have collaborating it? None I submit. If you do please present it.
What evidence do you have if you confess Jesus as lord and believe that he was raised by god from the dead, you will be be saved? Did you receive a congratulations card from on high to prove it?
What evidence can you present that when a women looked back at something, she was turned into a pillar of salt? Did your Morton’s salt shaker say its ingredients were Lot’s wife?
The bible claims you can do the works of Christ, so how many people do you know who choose to leave their fishing boats at home, and troll for fish as they strolled across the top of the lake? If that is too far fetched for you, how many sailors have you heard of, who’s ship was sunk, decided to walk away and head for shore? And at the same time assure their mates not to fear, but to also walk with them to safety?
The list goes on and on as more verses are read.
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waysider
It's a learned behavior. Kittens do instinctively meow when they are little but they grow out of it unless it's reinforced. There's some sort of parallel there to this thread. I'm just not real clear on it, though.
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T-Bone
Give me a little time and I could come up with some correlation
Learned behavior is probably the easiest to find similarities with this thread. As the thread title states, religion demands acceptance of the unprovable. I think that’s true but oddly enough some folks are drawn to religion anyway – regardless of the demands – and that’s something I find fascinating. Why?
I’m a sucker for You Tube ‘tutorials’ on cats and dogs. I remember one video on 8 or 9 things people don’t know about cats – that said cats meow to communicate something to people – and that it’s not usually used for cat-to-cat communication. Don’t know if there’s anything to that – but if it’s learned behavior it makes sense to me. We got our feral cat from a local animal shelter – he was about 8 months old. They told us he was a little shy being a feral cat but the person who brought the cat in remarked how friendly he was in getting handouts from the neighborhood. So, the cat discovered certain actions (like meowing) got him food – and now I’m on board with his learned behavior – so I’m trained too
– whatever – maybe we both get something out of it – I earn my cat’s trust to be the best cat valet I can be.
Maybe some things about religion are learned behavior. What do religious folks get out of it? In The Case for God by Karen Armstrong she says in most premodern cultures there were two recognized ways of thinking, speaking and acquiring knowledge – the ancient Greeks called them mythos and logos. Both were essential and considered complementary rather than in conflict with each other. Each had its own sphere of competence. Logos – reason – was the pragmatic mode of thought that empowered folks to function effectively in the world – forward-looking - always on the lookout to make efficient weapons, tools, better controls, invent and improve stuff. Logos was essential for the survival of our species. But it had its limitations – it couldn’t alleviate human grief or find meaning and purpose in struggles.
That’s where mythos come in. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell came up recently on another thread. Armstrong made some references to The Power of Myth too. She said currently we live in a society of scientific logos – and in popular jargon a myth is something that is not true. But in the past myth was not a self-indulgent fantasy – and has been called a primitive form of psychology – designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche – to enter the labyrinth of their own minds and fight personal demons. Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of the mind. Myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that followers could imitate them in the same way…Religion, therefore, was not primarily something that people thought but something they did.
End of ‘excerpts’ from The Case for God
~ ~ ~ ~
As Christopher Hitchens said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
I like that. I found another cool quote by him on Christopher Hitchens Quotes (Author of God Is Not Great) (goodreads.com) :
“Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
I no longer have a fundamentalists view of the Bible. I don’t look at the Bible as having a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. And personally, I find nothing in it that infuriates my mind. I try to understand it from its ancient cultural basis – folks trying to deal with the inexplicable. I like the freedom to investigate stuff for myself and consider other viewpoints. I may never get definitive answers on anything – but I keep at it anyway – because I keep figuring out there’s more questions to ask - and sometimes wind up reframing the problem (whatever the particular issue is that I'm exploring).
Now going full circle – I found another Hitchens quote that ties it all together with what I’ve been talking about – religion, cats and dogs:
“Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.”
― Christopher Hitchens, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever
This is freakin’ amazing – there’s at least two distinct religions practiced in our home – our dog thinks me and my wife are gods. And my wife and I practice the ancient Egyptian religion of worshipping our cat.
think I'll check out some of Hitchens stuff.
Edited by T-Bonerevision and spelling Hitchens
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Nathan_Jr
*Hitchens
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T-Bone
Thanks Nathan - I went back and corrected misspelling his name
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oldiesman
Reading Hebrews 11 again without TWI glasses on is pretty eye-opening, i.e. that having faith doesn't always bring results. Just look at all those who had faith and never saw results ... so obviously, there can be other forces at work simultaneously.
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So_crates
Or maybe how we define faith is wrong.
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Nathan_Jr
I think you're on to something.
When I questioned how "faith" was defined, my fellowship commander, who was still trapped in his 1970s era Corps "commitment," said,
"Faith is what we HAVE, believing is what we DO."
Not much of a definition, but it may sound familiar to many here.
I was given a similar answer when I asked, "What is religion?"
His said, "Man made....mmmmph."
(Huh?)
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So_crates
I'm thinking the Way took things too broadly. For example, pressed down, shaken together and running over was taken as a principle of giving and receiving. If you looked at the context it was speaking in reference to forgiveness.
Now as to the title deed verse: what if that was referring only to receiving holy spirit and salvation (which are basically the same thing)?
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Stayed Too Long
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
I don’t deny there are things science and reason can’t explain. I have participated in levitations where heavy furniture began floating in mid air. Also played with an ouji board and it answered question after question. Friends have participated in seances where a medium was able to contact dead relatives. Anyone who denies such things happening miss the mark. Science 101 has no explanation for such happenings.
One explanation, which makes sense to me, is there are unknown powers, called spirits, that maybe responsible for these events. Who or what they are cannot be explained by science.
What I do not agree with is establishing a religion based on spirits by saying some of the spirits are good and others bad. That you have to believe your salvation is dependent on believing one of them.
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oldiesman
I was assuming we're going by what the scriptures say about it. If not, how are you defining it?
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Stayed Too Long
Good question oldiesman.
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So_crates
First off, it refers to the title deed to things hoped for. What things? A Corvette stingray? Living at the Playboy mansion?
As I said in the follow up post, I think the author is speaking only about salvation.
The second question I would ask is if the just live (Zoe) by faith/believing (pistis) then why isn't the ministry's emphasis on strengthening that faith/believing? Rather, the ministry's emphasis is more on marking up bibles with Greek words.
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Stayed Too Long
When chaper 11 of Hebrews is read in its entirety nothing is mentioned about salvation.
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So_crates
The last verse of Hebrews 10 mentions faith and salvation
However, I'm not going to try to defend the undefendable. I base my thoughts on an educated guess, that the Way often takes what the bible says too broadly.
What do you think the "things" mentioned in Hebrews 1:1 are?
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oldiesman
Your mention of Hebrews 10 encouraged me to read it, and boy, does it pack a wallop. Specifically, verse 26 talks about abandoning the once-held faith. I believe this is what Catholics mean when they talk about the "unforgivable sin" and I have heard it said by more than one Catholic that this is what they believe the unforgivable sin really is. I don't remember TWI ever suggesting this theme. Below is a short commentary on the verse (and it's scary):
[26] "If we sin willfully": He speaks of the sin of willful apostasy from the known truth; after which, as we can not be baptized again, we can not expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism: but we have rather all manner of reason to look for a dreadful judgment; the more because apostates from the known truth, seldom or never have the grace to return to it.
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cman
I have evidence, get your own. It's not out of some book. The only "soul" I harken to is my own.
I can't provide any evidence that you seem to be asking for. I thought I knew some things once, until the Spirit moved inside of me. Can't prove it to anyone except for those who know the same kind of deal.
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Stayed Too Long
I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their development, they decided to believe in a god or gods. I was in that boat myself. Being born into a Catholic family, religion was crammed down my throat from a very young age. I hated all the rules of having to eat this, pray in a certain position, recognize certain days, confess my sins to a man behind a screen, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to reject it but still held the belief there was a god.
Sometime later, as I was eating lunch in a resturant, a guy sat next to me and began to tell me about a god that was completely different than the Catholic god. This random meeting began a 20 sum year association with TWI.
At first TWI filled me with peace and tranquility, but then realized they too had crazy rules that must be obeyed. And not adhering to them would force god to remove his hedge of protection from me.
So I checked other religions out, but found they all had some hook, that when swallowed, forced me to recognize some aspect of god that made no sense.
This got me to reason that if each religion had completely different requirements to satisfy god, which one was right? Then I threw in different faiths, which didn’t even worship the same god, and scratched my head in confusion.
Then I came to the conclusion that none had any idea of what they were talking about, as there are thousands of different Christian religions alone, not including all the other faiths. Which one worships the one true god? Impossible to determine.
So my logical conclusion was there is no god. I had attempted to reason through mounds of different dogmas to find god, but all it all brought was confusion.
Now my mind is cleared. I do not have to choose one god over the other. Peace and tranquility.
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cman
Good post STL, I like it!
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