I've been thinking about this and the question becomes...
HOW do you teach, persuade or school people to NOT BE SO D@MN GULLIBLE?
If you were to formulate a teaching series on helping people to overcome this... what would be your targeted objectives? Similar to teaching someone in high school how to debate effectively, how would you teach others to overcome this "gullible factor?" I have several thoughts on this, but will hold them in reserve to see what you deem necessary. Thanks in advance.
A worthy goal. Not answerable in quick sound bites. I suspect this is why ideally it's something to start building for children early in life.
Among possible objectives/steps:
Realization of the fact: everyone gets conned. That's what magicians do just for entertainment. Perhaps a foundational reality to teach could deal with how a person's attention is diverted to what others want to convince you has happened, will happen, or is really now happening.
Further, discussion of the role of early childhood education focusing on critical thinking skills. Then, post secondary education exploring the reason broad liberal arts courses are graduation requirements, including humanities, social sciences, foreign languages, philosophy and mathematics.
IOW, in my view, there's no easy fix. Doesn't mean there's no fix, it's just not easy. Might boil down to motivating individuals to become life long learners... which for many gets set aside when the necessities of life crowd them out.
A worthy goal. Not answerable in quick sound bites. I suspect this is why ideally it's something to start building for children early in life.
Among possible objectives/steps:
Realization of the fact: everyone gets conned. That's what magicians do just for entertainment. Perhaps a foundational reality to teach could deal with how a person's attention is diverted to what others want to convince you has happened, will happen, or is really now happening.
Further, discussion of the role of early childhood education focusing on critical thinking skills. Then, post secondary education exploring the reason broad liberal arts courses are graduation requirements, including humanities, social sciences, foreign languages, philosophy and mathematics.
IOW, in my view, there's no easy fix. Doesn't mean there's no fix, it's just not easy. Might boil down to motivating individuals to become life long learners... which for many gets set aside when the necessities of life crowd them out.
I agree with much of what you've posted, Rocky.
To me, it seems clear that these critical thinking skills need to be taught in a Humanities or Sociology Class as a Junior Level (age 17) in high school. Yes, in college courses, educators could devise a class that incorporates these principles into a larger package.... but then, not every student goes on to college.
I could see several possibilities on a class format.... but subtitles would be useful. Having a Part 1 and Part 2 series of classes would generate thought and class involvement. For example: Give a one-hour view of how society reeks of con artists, scams and fraudsters. Then devise a two-hour teaching series (Part 1 and Part 2) on subtitles....1) Deception, 2) Manipulation and 3) Exploitation. Part 1 would give examples and short-clips of deceptive practices and how they are orchestrated. Part 2 would require class involvement on how to spot and dismantle the deception in one's own life. In this manner, the 17-year old is, at least, initially aware that Deception is a common practice in the real world by companies and shady organizations. Manipulation and Exploitation would add two more power punches to this teaching series.... and then, a one-hour closing session. So, around 8-10 hours of teaching would equip our youth with the underbelly tactics of greed in the world at large.
Of course, at the college level... a semester class could delve into more granular tactics to overcome one's gullibility. Even in my college Marketing Class we went thru some examples of how marketing often involves deception. One such example was the Salem cigarette commercial... where a healthy couple is pictured walking on city streets, but then lighting up Salem cigarettes in the countryside. With a diddily cute tune, the song goes...."You can take Salem out of the country, but... you can't take the country out of Salem."
This song plays a couple of times thru the commercial and when the commercial comes to an end.... you hear, "You can take Salem out of the country, but..... [ding]" The song stops with the 'ding.' From a marketing strategy viewpoint, it gets the customer or potential customer to finish singing the song (in his head).
To me, it seems clear that these critical thinking skills need to be taught in a Humanities or Sociology Class as a Junior Level (age 17) in high school.
For me, I no longer expect our educational system to teach critical thinking and I have my son enrolled in a non-religous private school, which has proven a better experience than public shools but still kinda lacking in the critical thinking department. Im going to watch this video with him and a few others and Im very honest about my time in the way international and very persistent in my efforts to teach him critical thinking skills, skills I only learned after being leadership in an abusive cult.
For me, I no longer expect our educational system to teach critical thinking and I have my son enrolled in a non-religous private school, which has proven a better experience than public shools but still kinda lacking in the critical thinking department. Im going to watch this video with him and a few others and Im very honest about my time in the way international and very persistent in my efforts to teach him critical thinking skills, skills I only learned after being leadership in an abusive cult.
Sadly, you are so right, OldSkool.
Our educational system is broken. It would probably be more fitting for a private school or chartered school to get their students to higher educational standards. But then, homeschooling might do just fine as well to teach your own kids these critical thinking skills. In fact, for that matter..... teaching your own kids these truths would tend to be the BEST WAY FORWARD.
Our educational system is broken. It would probably be more fitting for a private school or chartered school to get their students to higher educational standards. But then, homeschooling might do just fine as well to teach your own kids these critical thinking skills. In fact, for that matter..... teaching your own kids these truths would tend to be the BEST WAY FORWARD.
Agreed. My boy is 16 and by all accounts a good, level headed teenager. Im very very fortunate to have a child that is academically inclined and who actually really wants to do whats right. While, I was accelerated gifted/advanced learning and all that, I was nothing like him, so thankfully there have been a few cycles broken in his life that tend to run in my family. He's going to a Waldorf school which has been a really good fit for him and they have small class sizes and it's very interactive, not really lecture-test centric though those come into play but not the focus. I guess, really, no matter the school it comes down to parental relationships with their kids and keeping things honest and real. I dont sugar coat anything for him. He witnessed me have my utter and complete breakdown, and on the other side of it all, I have been 100% honest about everything: including some rather uncomfortable topics like my addiction and other failures as well as the whys and wherefores of my rebound and recovery. We are really close and becuase I don't sugarcoat anything he tends to lock in and listen when were going over various and sundry life related issues. So, I think its really a combination of teaching him at home and also supporting his education, because with Waldorf they do endeavor to teach critical thinking...just not really to the degree I feel is necessary to navigate the world of Christian cults and other ponzi/MLM schemes that are so abundant out there. If he was still going to public schools then I could honestly forget any notion of him learning critical thinking because they simply didnt teach it to the point the kids could utilize the lessons.
"...currently under Ohio law, the state does not require parents to submit their home-schooling curriculum for review."
In other words, homeschooling can also be used to AVOID teaching critical thinking skills, as evidenced by a recently uncovered network of homeschoolers that promoted a Neo Nazi curriculum.
"...currently under Ohio law, the state does not require parents to submit their home-schooling curriculum for review."
In other words, homeschooling can also be used to AVOID teaching critical thinking skills, as evidenced by a recently uncovered network of homeschoolers that promoted a Neo Nazi curriculum.
In spite of these idiots, and in spite of the fact that I don't homeshchool, I do know many parents who home-school and have had a great experience, not to mention they are closer with their kids than they have ever been.
I don't doubt that for a minute. But, there needs to be some sort of safety net to catch the outliers.
Ive yet to see government regulation accomplish much in this regard, Im thinking deal with the outliers and the fact that they didnt register with the superintendant. Before I take this off topic further...I guess my point is you wont stop neo-nazi parents from raising neo-nazi kids and making it more difficult on homeshoolers who actually abide by the rules won't stop those who intend to break the rules.
I guess my point is you wont stop neo-nazi parents from raising neo-nazi kids and making it more difficult on homeshoolers who actually abide by the rules won't stop those who intend to break the rules.
Point well taken. My key take-away here is that they were able to establish a network, so it went beyond the scope of an individual homeschooler and into the realm of organized indoctrination.
Point well taken. My key take-away here is that they were able to establish a network, so it went beyond the scope of an individual homeschooler and into the realm of organized indoctrination.
Or, the opposite could be true as well. Lazy, addicted parents could be so undisciplined that when THEY do homeschooling.... there is little oversight and no curriculum to speak of.
But as you pointed out... some type of system of "controls" should be warranted. It's hard to think that government regulations will do much good. So many things fall thru the cracks as it is.
Or, the opposite could be true as well. Lazy, addicted parents could be so undisciplined that when THEY do homeschooling.... there is little oversight and no curriculum to speak of.
I don't see that so much as an opposite as I do of that being a variation of what can happen without proper oversight.
Think of the human body. As cells become damaged or aged, a biological mechanism initiates new growth. That's the healing process and it's much needed. There are triggers that tell the body when to start and when to stop the process. If the signal to stop the process is somehow missed, growth will continue. In a very simplistic way, this describes cancer. It happens thousands of times a day to even the healthiest of people. Fortunately, though, the body also has an oversight mechanism for detecting when this happens and is able to respond in a manner that halts this process. If this oversight mechanism is not functioning properly, the situation can take a turn for the worst. Homeschooling can be a wonderful experience for students and parents alike as long as there is an oversight mechanism to insure the process doesn't go unchecked.
Homeschooling can be a wonderful experience for students and parents alike as long as there is an oversight mechanism to insure the process doesn't go unchecked.
Maybe I missed some details but it seems the article was calling for more oversight and not just oversight. There is oversight as it is now, but the jack@$$ neo-nazis sidestepped requirements. So enforce the requirements on those who sidestep instead of adding more layers on those who comply already, which is the vast majority.
It's just one article and doesn't represent the entirety of the situation. I posted this particular one because it was readily accessible. There are a lot of other sources that look at the issue from different angles and address other aspects. Maybe what needs to be scrutinized and revised is the actual oversight process itself at a systemic level.
It's just one article and doesn't represent the entirety of the situation. I posted this particular one because it was readily accessible. There are a lot of other sources that look at the issue from different angles and address other aspects. Maybe what needs to be scrutinized and revised is the actual oversight process itself at a systemic level.
And, this article might be "readily accessible" because it's pushing forward a narrative.
The other side might be as equally true (lazy, addicted parents who homeschool)..... but that it's harder to detect, enforce and create a narrative around it. With the wide-range parameters of no-oversight parenthood, I highly suspect that it is just as susceptible to neglect. A journalist would have to really dig deep to go to such lengths of finding these lazy, addicted parents who could care less about their child's education or life.
It's just one article and doesn't represent the entirety of the situation. I posted this particular one because it was readily accessible. There are a lot of other sources that look at the issue from different angles and address other aspects. Maybe what needs to be scrutinized and revised is the actual oversight process itself at a systemic level.
I followed all the links because I wanted to see an actual sample of the curriculum to see what was neoNazi about it. I'm gonna check it out when I'm home. There's a rabbit hole to be followed I'm not sure what I'll find though...part of the fun I guess.
I followed all the links because I wanted to see an actual sample of the curriculum to see what was neoNazi about it. I'm gonna check it out when I'm home. There's a rabbit hole to be followed I'm not sure what I'll find though...part of the fun I guess.
The Dissident Home School network. Another article….
Our educational system is broken. It would probably be more fitting for a private school or chartered school to get their students to higher educational standards. But then, homeschooling might do just fine as well to teach your own kids these critical thinking skills. In fact, for that matter..... teaching your own kids these truths would tend to be the BEST WAY FORWARD.
Our educational system is broken. But part of the problem is parents check out in the process and do not augment public teachings with personal involvement in their kids lives. So many kids turn to poor alternatives as the only place they can get needed attention.
Some private or charter schools can be beneficial for an alternative curriculum, it depends on the area of the country or world. At times they are not as desirable due to lack of funding. They have building rental that comes out of their funding that public do not.
Home schooling can be varied as well. My friends who do that have large families or live in the country or pursue competitive sports for a career. All of them I know do well with it. The kids can play public sports too on local public school teams so that helps with social exposure. All have a curriculum that is standard and a set schedule.
And we can teach them to be critical thinkers and avoid cults so they maximize their potential. No approach is perfect but I pieced together what worked for us. For ours college was better than earlier schooling so glad we modeled that for them.
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OldSkool
Well, lemme chime in as the local recovering alcoholic who has had SERIOUS battles with addiction. You aleady stated many of the possible reasons why people turn to drugs and alcohol. But I wann
skyrider
This post was directed at OldSkool, not me. Other than that.....yes, kudos to OldSkool to come thru this experience with success.
WordWolf
Ah, the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is also known as the Word of Faith movement. We were already discussing them.... https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25436-the-dangerous-word
chockfull
Congrats!!!
Milestones achieved !!!!
You are awesome and deserve to live on in success and happiness.
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Rocky
A worthy goal. Not answerable in quick sound bites. I suspect this is why ideally it's something to start building for children early in life.
Among possible objectives/steps:
Realization of the fact: everyone gets conned. That's what magicians do just for entertainment. Perhaps a foundational reality to teach could deal with how a person's attention is diverted to what others want to convince you has happened, will happen, or is really now happening.
Further, discussion of the role of early childhood education focusing on critical thinking skills. Then, post secondary education exploring the reason broad liberal arts courses are graduation requirements, including humanities, social sciences, foreign languages, philosophy and mathematics.
IOW, in my view, there's no easy fix. Doesn't mean there's no fix, it's just not easy. Might boil down to motivating individuals to become life long learners... which for many gets set aside when the necessities of life crowd them out.
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skyrider
I agree with much of what you've posted, Rocky.
To me, it seems clear that these critical thinking skills need to be taught in a Humanities or Sociology Class as a Junior Level (age 17) in high school. Yes, in college courses, educators could devise a class that incorporates these principles into a larger package.... but then, not every student goes on to college.
I could see several possibilities on a class format.... but subtitles would be useful. Having a Part 1 and Part 2 series of classes would generate thought and class involvement. For example: Give a one-hour view of how society reeks of con artists, scams and fraudsters. Then devise a two-hour teaching series (Part 1 and Part 2) on subtitles....1) Deception, 2) Manipulation and 3) Exploitation. Part 1 would give examples and short-clips of deceptive practices and how they are orchestrated. Part 2 would require class involvement on how to spot and dismantle the deception in one's own life. In this manner, the 17-year old is, at least, initially aware that Deception is a common practice in the real world by companies and shady organizations. Manipulation and Exploitation would add two more power punches to this teaching series.... and then, a one-hour closing session. So, around 8-10 hours of teaching would equip our youth with the underbelly tactics of greed in the world at large.
Of course, at the college level... a semester class could delve into more granular tactics to overcome one's gullibility. Even in my college Marketing Class we went thru some examples of how marketing often involves deception. One such example was the Salem cigarette commercial... where a healthy couple is pictured walking on city streets, but then lighting up Salem cigarettes in the countryside. With a diddily cute tune, the song goes...."You can take Salem out of the country, but... you can't take the country out of Salem."
This song plays a couple of times thru the commercial and when the commercial comes to an end.... you hear, "You can take Salem out of the country, but..... [ding]" The song stops with the 'ding.' From a marketing strategy viewpoint, it gets the customer or potential customer to finish singing the song (in his head).
Salem Cigarette Commercial in early 70's
.
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OldSkool
For me, I no longer expect our educational system to teach critical thinking and I have my son enrolled in a non-religous private school, which has proven a better experience than public shools but still kinda lacking in the critical thinking department. Im going to watch this video with him and a few others and Im very honest about my time in the way international and very persistent in my efforts to teach him critical thinking skills, skills I only learned after being leadership in an abusive cult.
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skyrider
Sadly, you are so right, OldSkool.
Our educational system is broken. It would probably be more fitting for a private school or chartered school to get their students to higher educational standards. But then, homeschooling might do just fine as well to teach your own kids these critical thinking skills. In fact, for that matter..... teaching your own kids these truths would tend to be the BEST WAY FORWARD.
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OldSkool
Agreed. My boy is 16 and by all accounts a good, level headed teenager. Im very very fortunate to have a child that is academically inclined and who actually really wants to do whats right. While, I was accelerated gifted/advanced learning and all that, I was nothing like him, so thankfully there have been a few cycles broken in his life that tend to run in my family. He's going to a Waldorf school which has been a really good fit for him and they have small class sizes and it's very interactive, not really lecture-test centric though those come into play but not the focus. I guess, really, no matter the school it comes down to parental relationships with their kids and keeping things honest and real. I dont sugar coat anything for him. He witnessed me have my utter and complete breakdown, and on the other side of it all, I have been 100% honest about everything: including some rather uncomfortable topics like my addiction and other failures as well as the whys and wherefores of my rebound and recovery. We are really close and becuase I don't sugarcoat anything he tends to lock in and listen when were going over various and sundry life related issues. So, I think its really a combination of teaching him at home and also supporting his education, because with Waldorf they do endeavor to teach critical thinking...just not really to the degree I feel is necessary to navigate the world of Christian cults and other ponzi/MLM schemes that are so abundant out there. If he was still going to public schools then I could honestly forget any notion of him learning critical thinking because they simply didnt teach it to the point the kids could utilize the lessons.
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waysider
"...currently under Ohio law, the state does not require parents to submit their home-schooling curriculum for review."
In other words, homeschooling can also be used to AVOID teaching critical thinking skills, as evidenced by a recently uncovered network of homeschoolers that promoted a Neo Nazi curriculum.
LINK
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OldSkool
In spite of these idiots, and in spite of the fact that I don't homeshchool, I do know many parents who home-school and have had a great experience, not to mention they are closer with their kids than they have ever been.
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waysider
I don't doubt that for a minute. But, there needs to be some sort of safety net to catch the outliers.
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OldSkool
Ive yet to see government regulation accomplish much in this regard, Im thinking deal with the outliers and the fact that they didnt register with the superintendant. Before I take this off topic further...I guess my point is you wont stop neo-nazi parents from raising neo-nazi kids and making it more difficult on homeshoolers who actually abide by the rules won't stop those who intend to break the rules.
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waysider
Point well taken. My key take-away here is that they were able to establish a network, so it went beyond the scope of an individual homeschooler and into the realm of organized indoctrination.
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skyrider
Or, the opposite could be true as well. Lazy, addicted parents could be so undisciplined that when THEY do homeschooling.... there is little oversight and no curriculum to speak of.
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skyrider
But as you pointed out... some type of system of "controls" should be warranted. It's hard to think that government regulations will do much good. So many things fall thru the cracks as it is.
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waysider
I don't see that so much as an opposite as I do of that being a variation of what can happen without proper oversight.
Think of the human body. As cells become damaged or aged, a biological mechanism initiates new growth. That's the healing process and it's much needed. There are triggers that tell the body when to start and when to stop the process. If the signal to stop the process is somehow missed, growth will continue. In a very simplistic way, this describes cancer. It happens thousands of times a day to even the healthiest of people. Fortunately, though, the body also has an oversight mechanism for detecting when this happens and is able to respond in a manner that halts this process. If this oversight mechanism is not functioning properly, the situation can take a turn for the worst. Homeschooling can be a wonderful experience for students and parents alike as long as there is an oversight mechanism to insure the process doesn't go unchecked.
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OldSkool
Maybe I missed some details but it seems the article was calling for more oversight and not just oversight. There is oversight as it is now, but the jack@$$ neo-nazis sidestepped requirements. So enforce the requirements on those who sidestep instead of adding more layers on those who comply already, which is the vast majority.
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waysider
It's just one article and doesn't represent the entirety of the situation. I posted this particular one because it was readily accessible. There are a lot of other sources that look at the issue from different angles and address other aspects. Maybe what needs to be scrutinized and revised is the actual oversight process itself at a systemic level.
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skyrider
And, this article might be "readily accessible" because it's pushing forward a narrative.
The other side might be as equally true (lazy, addicted parents who homeschool)..... but that it's harder to detect, enforce and create a narrative around it. With the wide-range parameters of no-oversight parenthood, I highly suspect that it is just as susceptible to neglect. A journalist would have to really dig deep to go to such lengths of finding these lazy, addicted parents who could care less about their child's education or life.
.
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OldSkool
I followed all the links because I wanted to see an actual sample of the curriculum to see what was neoNazi about it. I'm gonna check it out when I'm home. There's a rabbit hole to be followed I'm not sure what I'll find though...part of the fun I guess.
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waysider
And this is why it's necessary to look at multiple sources and exercise the critical thinking skills we've been discussing.
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skyrider
My point is.... that there might NOT be "multiple sources/links" because it's too hard to formulate any conclusive statement on the matter.
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waysider
Fair enough. It never hurts to give it the old college try, though.
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skyrider
Agreed.
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chockfull
The Dissident Home School network. Another article….
https://www.vice.com/en/article/z34ane/neo-nazi-homeschool-ohio
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chockfull
Our educational system is broken. But part of the problem is parents check out in the process and do not augment public teachings with personal involvement in their kids lives. So many kids turn to poor alternatives as the only place they can get needed attention.
Some private or charter schools can be beneficial for an alternative curriculum, it depends on the area of the country or world. At times they are not as desirable due to lack of funding. They have building rental that comes out of their funding that public do not.
Home schooling can be varied as well. My friends who do that have large families or live in the country or pursue competitive sports for a career. All of them I know do well with it. The kids can play public sports too on local public school teams so that helps with social exposure. All have a curriculum that is standard and a set schedule.
And we can teach them to be critical thinkers and avoid cults so they maximize their potential. No approach is perfect but I pieced together what worked for us. For ours college was better than earlier schooling so glad we modeled that for them.
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