Very sad that this is so symptomatic of US society that values money more than anything else. A greed-based society.
True prosperity is having enough and thriving. Doing well for yourself - which doesn't just mean having enough money, but having enough in all aspects of life: love, friendship, community, self-respect, respect for others. Time to enjoy life. Opportunity to spend doing things you love with those you love. And yes, being successful at the work you do. The word for "prosper" means, basically, "go well, have a good journey."
Basically, prosperity is having a good life, not just in the financial sense, but just living a comfortable, thriving, enjoyable, uncomplicated, life. Heck, it's even hard to describe what I want to say, as all the words I'd put are loaded with "prosperity gospel" overtones.
may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι(euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137:From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road, i.e. succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs.
(My emphasis; I see the "figurative" expansion as being a bit of PI unless used in a general sense.)
"Prosperity" is one of those words that's changed its meaning, or rather, the overtones have all but obliterated the proper meaning. My great grandad would always greet me@ "How're you prospering, wench?" meaning, "How are you doing, girl?"
New Living Translation
Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit.
I think T-Bone's post (p.41 of Why PFAL Sucks) is relevant here:
Quote
On page 1170 of Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume, Geoffrey Bromiley says oforthotomountaoccurs in the Greek Bible only atProverbs 3:6,Proverbs 11:5where it means make paths straight, to build a road, to lay down a way, and of course inII Timothy 2:15. Bromiley says the real meaning seems to be that Timothy should speak the word of truth in his conduct – he will present the word legitimately – confirming it in his life.
The motifs of a journey, a path and of walking are quite common in the Bible and usually refer to the big picture of life– how we handle the mundane, careers, personal life, relationships…how we navigate through life…do we use a moral compass?
Very sad that this is so symptomatic of US society that values money more than anything else. A greed-based society.
True prosperity is having enough and thriving. Doing well for yourself - which doesn't just mean having enough money, but having enough in all aspects of life: love, friendship, community, self-respect, respect for others. Time to enjoy life. Opportunity to spend doing things you love with those you love. And yes, being successful at the work you do. The word for "prosper" means, basically, "go well, have a good journey."
Basically, prosperity is having a good life, not just in the financial sense, but just living a comfortable, thriving, enjoyable, uncomplicated, life. Heck, it's even hard to describe what I want to say, as all the words I'd put are loaded with "prosperity gospel" overtones.
Well, I wouldn't just point to the "US society"..... the scriptures warn against the love of money being the root of all evil. Whether it's Saudi Arabia or the elite culture in Davos, Switzerland.... the evil nature of greed has permeated.
It's bigger than bashing the USA.... it's devilish evil that has twisted and contorted the mind of man to lust after covetousness. How many times do the scriptures speak on the covetous man?
That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)
Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)
Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
Do you see any of that happening?
Sure... all of these components come together into a pot of evil brew.
Mega-church preachers steeped in greed
Gullible people who are seeking signs, prosperity
Tax laws and loopholes
Destitute followers addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling
The fallen state of man devoid of sound minds
Etc. etc.
From any number of tangents, this problem has exacerbated into other sets of problems in society. You're right.... it stands out as a US problem, but mainly because of the wealth in the US system. Preachers, like all con men, seek an environment where they know it's easy pickens. Far too many people are so gullible. It seemed to be a similar scenario during the PT Barnum carnival days when the circus came to town with side-shows of bearded ladies, dwarfs and two-headed goats. What did PT supposedly say? "There's a sucker born every minute."
Why do these mega-church preachers target US society? It's again, similar to what the bank robber Willie Sutton said back in 1933 when asked, Why do you rob banks? "I rob banks because that's where the money is."
That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)
Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
Do you see any of that happening?
Its interesting. Conceptually, mega Churches are based in wrong theology. Theology that was pushed by John Nelson Darby (English), Westcott And Hortt, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, et al. and eventually codified in the Scofield Study Bible where it has propagated through our theological seminaries. America certainly has its fair share of wolves in sheeps clothing doing fake miracles and riding the top of their ponzi schemes raking in the cash hand over fist: they have their reward. Perhaps the ideas found fertile soil in America more than other places for a variety of reason, and Skyrider certainly enumerated a list of actual valid reasons.
That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)
Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
Do you see any of that happening?
I blame it on Americans being more gullible in general lol.
And no I don’t see Joel Olsteen and his red Ferrari pulling up to the local mission soup lines and serving up meals to the needy.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
Do you see any of that happening?
Twinky.... I know that you and your faithful group of "street ministers" help the homeless, the addicts and the abused on the streets. What you are doing is highly commendable. God needs faithful disciples like you.
This whole area of the homeless, the addicts, the abused and the poverty-stricken is a growing problem. Here in the U.S., drugs are pouring across the border by the drug cartels and human-traffickers who load up these "mules" to carry marijuana, fentanyl, etc. into this country. It seems that with current laws, we are in a losing battle. What I'm getting at.... the problem is worsening. If your country is anything like what's happening here, then you and your group are going to be overwhelmed by a problem that keeps growing in leaps and bounds.
Having 5-10 mansions to "house" this wave of addicted, abused and homeless will not begin to put a dent in the growing problem. This needs to be tackled at its source with laws and regulations that stem the tide.
Twinky.... I know that you and your faithful group of "street ministers" help the homeless, the addicts and the abused on the streets. What you are doing is highly commendable. God needs faithful disciples like you.
This whole area of the homeless, the addicts, the abused and the poverty-stricken is a growing problem. Here in the U.S., drugs are pouring across the border by the drug cartels and human-traffickers who load up these "mules" to carry marijuana, fentanyl, etc. into this country. It seems that with current laws, we are in a losing battle. What I'm getting at.... the problem is worsening. If your country is anything like what's happening here, then you and your group are going to be overwhelmed by a problem that keeps growing in leaps and bounds.
Having 5-10 mansions to "house" this wave of addicted, abused and homeless will not begin to put a dent in the growing problem. This needs to be tackled at its source with laws and regulations that stem the tide.
Lol yes. They did try to out a small dent in this by sending border refugees to the home area of a particularly vocal politician lol. In an attempt to convince of the need to stem the tide with laws.
I think Twinky and local ministering groups are awesome!
I purchased a blanket recently from a company called Sackcloth and Ashes. They donate a blanket to the homeless for every one purchased and are made of recycled material wool. Durable and helpful for a one piece gift.
I feel better about that than paying for BOD personal servants and investments and lawsuit corrections.
This whole area of the homeless, the addicts, the abused and the poverty-stricken is a growing problem. Here in the U.S., drugs are pouring across the border by the drug cartels and human-traffickers who load up these "mules" to carry marijuana, fentanyl, etc. into this country. It seems that with current laws, we are in a losing battle. What I'm getting at.... the problem is worsening. If your country is anything like what's happening here, then you and your group are going to be overwhelmed by a problem that keeps growing in leaps and bounds.
Having 5-10 mansions to "house" this wave of addicted, abused and homeless will not begin to put a dent in the growing problem. This needs to be tackled at its source with laws and regulations that stem the tide.
Drugs are a problem everywhere. And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves. That's just extreme greed.
Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions.
In this, churches of all kinds can help. Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike. No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom. I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space.
Drugs are a problem everywhere. And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves. That's just extreme greed.
Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions.
In this, churches of all kinds can help. Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike. No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom. I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space.
There seem to be multiple root causes (plural) when it comes to this area: poverty, no father-figure at home, abusive parents, extreme lack of direction, poor schooling, very little discipline, pre-teen and teen gang affiliation, petty misdemeanors, crime, etc. Since there is no home life structure, the pre-teen goes searching for "support" on the streets and elsewhere. If these support systems are not in place throughout childhood years, the problem gets exacerbated in their teen years and beyond.
Seems to me, parents and society norms are failing our children. They grow up fast and they grow up mean (sounds like a Johnny Cash song...lol) and there just aren't enough support structures out there when parents fail at their most fundamental duties.... raising strong and independent children to where they can stand on their own two feet. Laws and government regulations need to clamp down on pedophilia, child trafficking, perversions, drag queen shows for kids, hard drugs in the inner cities, etc. Look to many examples in the animal kingdom and you'll find that most animals teach and support their offspring to the point of generational longevity. Whereas, many parents are too selfish, too addicted, and scrambling to stay ahead of the bills.
Lots of things needed to reel in these societal problems.
Absolutely, Sky, and that's where churches can play a big role. Bigger churches = bigger role.
My little church has got a growing Youth group of once-disaffected kids, who started coming around when we opened and being generally unruly. These kids (boys) were in the 9-12 age group usually. Parents having a lie-in on Sunday morning, kids up and about, and nothing for them to do except roam around in groups doing whatever youths find to do - making mischief usually. Not bad kids, just bored and pushing boundaries.
Youth minister took them out the back and played football with them. Showed them he cared. Gradually got to teach them that just as football has rules, so does life. Play by the rules and all goes much better.
Today, those kids are responsible young men who anyone would be pleased to be around. That early intervention has doubtless saved the boys from trouble with police, and an uncertain future.
If that's what a little church can do - how much more can a big church do? If it cares, and isn't so big that the vulnerable can get lost?
Yes, bigger churches should be playing a bigger role.... which leads us back full circle. The greed and corruption within these mega-churches has perverted the very essence of the church structure in society. Rather than a source of spiritual strength to the family unit, many of these mega-churches have become a conduit of slavish adulation and idolatry to "church leaders." It falls in the description of man-worship.... and that's not an exaggeration. These men are treated like gods.... just like the scriptures tell us.
Woe to these men who flaunt God's churches to such corruption. The foundational principles to "the office of a bishop, church elder" are found in I Timothy chapter 3.... and these men have far surpassed the thresholds of God's structure. Just to name a few..... must be blameless, vigilant, sober, of good and sound behavior, not lifted up with pride, not greedy of filthy lucre, etc. Far surpassing these qualifications, the corruption is permeating society and people.
Seems to me, parents and society norms are failing our children. They grow up fast and they grow up mean (sounds like a Johnny Cash song...lol) and there just aren't enough support structures out there when parents fail at their most fundamental duties.... raising strong and independent children to where they can stand on their own two feet.
Drugs are a problem everywhere. And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves. That's just extreme greed.
Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions.
In this, churches of all kinds can help. Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike. No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom. I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space.
Drugs are complicated. Many times it involves self medication for mental illnesses. For example the most abused drugs are meth which is basically ADHD medication, and painkillers - fentanyl and heroin.
Also people have addictive behavior. For example many of us have addictive tendencies toward religion. I would say this is an element of cult recovery - to establish and maintain boundaries in life. I don’t think that necessarily leads to drugs except maybe unconscious escapism of some kind. This is the type of “guard your mind” skills that are necessary - not the “law of believing”.
Absolutely, Sky, and that's where churches can play a big role. Bigger churches = bigger role.
My little church has got a growing Youth group of once-disaffected kids, who started coming around when we opened and being generally unruly. These kids (boys) were in the 9-12 age group usually. Parents having a lie-in on Sunday morning, kids up and about, and nothing for them to do except roam around in groups doing whatever youths find to do - making mischief usually. Not bad kids, just bored and pushing boundaries.
Youth minister took them out the back and played football with them. Showed them he cared. Gradually got to teach them that just as football has rules, so does life. Play by the rules and all goes much better.
Today, those kids are responsible young men who anyone would be pleased to be around. That early intervention has doubtless saved the boys from trouble with police, and an uncertain future.
If that's what a little church can do - how much more can a big church do? If it cares, and isn't so big that the vulnerable can get lost?
This type of personal ministering and care I feel is exemplary of true Christianity.
I don’t know how a big church can duplicate it. It seems with the masses comes the lack of personal ministering many times or rather looking at donations and focusing attention on the rich donors is what happens.
One mega church I am familiar with did this through small groups or attempted to. They published a 30,000 person membership or participation in their small group numbers. Which is more twigs than the TWI has in the US for example. They have a group for example for non binary single mothers, basically whatever designation can be tagged there is a group for it.
The small groups may have done some good but there is still corruption in the larger and scandal and people type problems.
Some of this is a problem of human nature and governance at scale.
None of this applies to TWI. They are an org that has the control of a large group with numbers of a small group. Maybe they have mental illnesses in the control area and could use some medication. Maybe Drambuie and Kools were a form of self medication. To kill the pain of having to live with his true self.
Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions.
Well, lemme chime in as the local recovering alcoholic who has had SERIOUS battles with addiction.
You aleady stated many of the possible reasons why people turn to drugs and alcohol. But I wanna handle one you didnt mention. Drugs make a person feel good and allow a person to forget. Thats the exact root cause that led me to stay involved in drugs when I had a choice before I became an addict. Not too many people see the hook or feel the hook being set. I started off drinking and abusing drugs because my older sister thought it was funny to get me completely jacked up and pass out...I was 10. So while I really didnt have a snowballs chance when I was young, as I got older I chose drugs and alcohol. It was a lifestyle I desired and running the streets was who I was. I sobered up for a good while once I got involved with TWI, but never could admit that I was an alcoholic and should never touch alcohol again. So when my son was born and I caught the brunt of his major health problems I turned to alcohol to numb it out. By the time I was addicted I couldnt stop: literally. I was so physically hooked that my hands would start shaking aroun 3pm each day because the withdrawals were setting in while I had been working. Since Ive turned to Christ he has empowered me over my addiction as long as I dont drink. Sounds kinda simple, but I couldnt stop. I tried for three years to put the bottle down on my own and physically couldnt. The very day I turned to Christ and repented of my lifestyle I was able to quit cold turkey and havent touched a drop in several years now. Nobody sets out to be an addict, we are overtaken by addiction and dont see it even when we are in the midst of it's grip.
Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget. Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say). Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo. Awful. Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age.
Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others.
It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place. And then to come through that is serious success.
Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget. Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say). Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo. Awful. Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age.
Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others.
It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place. And then to come through that is serious success.
This post was directed at OldSkool, not me.
Other than that.....yes, kudos to OldSkool to come thru this experience with success.
Sure... all of these components come together into a pot of evil brew.
Mega-church preachers steeped in greed
Gullible people who are seeking signs, prosperity
Tax laws and loopholes
Destitute followers addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling
The fallen state of man devoid of sound minds
Etc. etc.
I've been thinking about this and the question becomes...
HOW do you teach, persuade or school people to NOT BE SO D@MN GULLIBLE?
If you were to formulate a teaching series on helping people to overcome this... what would be your targeted objectives? Similar to teaching someone in high school how to debate effectively, how would you teach others to overcome this "gullible factor?" I have several thoughts on this, but will hold them in reserve to see what you deem necessary. Thanks in advance.
Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget. Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say). Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo. Awful. Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age.
Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others.
It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place. And then to come through that is serious success.
3 hours ago, skyrider said:
This post was directed at OldSkool, not me.
Other than that.....yes, kudos to OldSkool to come thru this experience with success.
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OldSkool
Well, lemme chime in as the local recovering alcoholic who has had SERIOUS battles with addiction. You aleady stated many of the possible reasons why people turn to drugs and alcohol. But I wann
skyrider
This post was directed at OldSkool, not me. Other than that.....yes, kudos to OldSkool to come thru this experience with success.
WordWolf
Ah, the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is also known as the Word of Faith movement. We were already discussing them.... https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25436-the-dangerous-word
WordWolf
Ah, the prosperity gospel, name it and claim it, is also known as the Word of Faith movement. We were already discussing them....
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25436-the-dangerous-word-of-faith-movement-and-how-it-harmed-christians-in-twi/
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OldSkool
Similarities with the secular MLM world, cults in their own right.
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Twinky
Very sad that this is so symptomatic of US society that values money more than anything else. A greed-based society.
True prosperity is having enough and thriving. Doing well for yourself - which doesn't just mean having enough money, but having enough in all aspects of life: love, friendship, community, self-respect, respect for others. Time to enjoy life. Opportunity to spend doing things you love with those you love. And yes, being successful at the work you do. The word for "prosper" means, basically, "go well, have a good journey."
Basically, prosperity is having a good life, not just in the financial sense, but just living a comfortable, thriving, enjoyable, uncomplicated, life. Heck, it's even hard to describe what I want to say, as all the words I'd put are loaded with "prosperity gospel" overtones.
may prosper
εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive
Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road, i.e. succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs.
(My emphasis; I see the "figurative" expansion as being a bit of PI unless used in a general sense.)
"Prosperity" is one of those words that's changed its meaning, or rather, the overtones have all but obliterated the proper meaning. My great grandad would always greet me@ "How're you prospering, wench?" meaning, "How are you doing, girl?"
New Living Translation
Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit.
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Twinky
I think T-Bone's post (p.41 of Why PFAL Sucks) is relevant here:
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skyrider
Well, I wouldn't just point to the "US society"..... the scriptures warn against the love of money being the root of all evil. Whether it's Saudi Arabia or the elite culture in Davos, Switzerland.... the evil nature of greed has permeated.
It's bigger than bashing the USA.... it's devilish evil that has twisted and contorted the mind of man to lust after covetousness. How many times do the scriptures speak on the covetous man?
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Twinky
That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.)
Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays.
A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans?
Do you see any of that happening?
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skyrider
Sure... all of these components come together into a pot of evil brew.
From any number of tangents, this problem has exacerbated into other sets of problems in society. You're right.... it stands out as a US problem, but mainly because of the wealth in the US system. Preachers, like all con men, seek an environment where they know it's easy pickens. Far too many people are so gullible. It seemed to be a similar scenario during the PT Barnum carnival days when the circus came to town with side-shows of bearded ladies, dwarfs and two-headed goats. What did PT supposedly say? "There's a sucker born every minute."
Why do these mega-church preachers target US society? It's again, similar to what the bank robber Willie Sutton said back in 1933 when asked, Why do you rob banks? "I rob banks because that's where the money is."
.
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OldSkool
Its interesting. Conceptually, mega Churches are based in wrong theology. Theology that was pushed by John Nelson Darby (English), Westcott And Hortt, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, et al. and eventually codified in the Scofield Study Bible where it has propagated through our theological seminaries. America certainly has its fair share of wolves in sheeps clothing doing fake miracles and riding the top of their ponzi schemes raking in the cash hand over fist: they have their reward. Perhaps the ideas found fertile soil in America more than other places for a variety of reason, and Skyrider certainly enumerated a list of actual valid reasons.
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chockfull
I blame it on Americans being more gullible in general lol.
And no I don’t see Joel Olsteen and his red Ferrari pulling up to the local mission soup lines and serving up meals to the needy.
You know who I do see doing that?
Dave Grohls from the Foo Fighters.
He is awesome.
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skyrider
Twinky.... I know that you and your faithful group of "street ministers" help the homeless, the addicts and the abused on the streets. What you are doing is highly commendable. God needs faithful disciples like you.
This whole area of the homeless, the addicts, the abused and the poverty-stricken is a growing problem. Here in the U.S., drugs are pouring across the border by the drug cartels and human-traffickers who load up these "mules" to carry marijuana, fentanyl, etc. into this country. It seems that with current laws, we are in a losing battle. What I'm getting at.... the problem is worsening. If your country is anything like what's happening here, then you and your group are going to be overwhelmed by a problem that keeps growing in leaps and bounds.
Having 5-10 mansions to "house" this wave of addicted, abused and homeless will not begin to put a dent in the growing problem. This needs to be tackled at its source with laws and regulations that stem the tide.
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chockfull
Lol yes. They did try to out a small dent in this by sending border refugees to the home area of a particularly vocal politician lol. In an attempt to convince of the need to stem the tide with laws.
I think Twinky and local ministering groups are awesome!
I purchased a blanket recently from a company called Sackcloth and Ashes. They donate a blanket to the homeless for every one purchased and are made of recycled material wool. Durable and helpful for a one piece gift.
I feel better about that than paying for BOD personal servants and investments and lawsuit corrections.
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Twinky
Drugs are a problem everywhere. And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves. That's just extreme greed.
Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions.
In this, churches of all kinds can help. Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike. No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom. I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space.
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skyrider
There seem to be multiple root causes (plural) when it comes to this area: poverty, no father-figure at home, abusive parents, extreme lack of direction, poor schooling, very little discipline, pre-teen and teen gang affiliation, petty misdemeanors, crime, etc. Since there is no home life structure, the pre-teen goes searching for "support" on the streets and elsewhere. If these support systems are not in place throughout childhood years, the problem gets exacerbated in their teen years and beyond.
Seems to me, parents and society norms are failing our children. They grow up fast and they grow up mean (sounds like a Johnny Cash song...lol) and there just aren't enough support structures out there when parents fail at their most fundamental duties.... raising strong and independent children to where they can stand on their own two feet. Laws and government regulations need to clamp down on pedophilia, child trafficking, perversions, drag queen shows for kids, hard drugs in the inner cities, etc. Look to many examples in the animal kingdom and you'll find that most animals teach and support their offspring to the point of generational longevity. Whereas, many parents are too selfish, too addicted, and scrambling to stay ahead of the bills.
Lots of things needed to reel in these societal problems.
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Twinky
Absolutely, Sky, and that's where churches can play a big role. Bigger churches = bigger role.
My little church has got a growing Youth group of once-disaffected kids, who started coming around when we opened and being generally unruly. These kids (boys) were in the 9-12 age group usually. Parents having a lie-in on Sunday morning, kids up and about, and nothing for them to do except roam around in groups doing whatever youths find to do - making mischief usually. Not bad kids, just bored and pushing boundaries.
Youth minister took them out the back and played football with them. Showed them he cared. Gradually got to teach them that just as football has rules, so does life. Play by the rules and all goes much better.
Today, those kids are responsible young men who anyone would be pleased to be around. That early intervention has doubtless saved the boys from trouble with police, and an uncertain future.
If that's what a little church can do - how much more can a big church do? If it cares, and isn't so big that the vulnerable can get lost?
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skyrider
Yes, bigger churches should be playing a bigger role.... which leads us back full circle. The greed and corruption within these mega-churches has perverted the very essence of the church structure in society. Rather than a source of spiritual strength to the family unit, many of these mega-churches have become a conduit of slavish adulation and idolatry to "church leaders." It falls in the description of man-worship.... and that's not an exaggeration. These men are treated like gods.... just like the scriptures tell us.
Woe to these men who flaunt God's churches to such corruption. The foundational principles to "the office of a bishop, church elder" are found in I Timothy chapter 3.... and these men have far surpassed the thresholds of God's structure. Just to name a few..... must be blameless, vigilant, sober, of good and sound behavior, not lifted up with pride, not greedy of filthy lucre, etc. Far surpassing these qualifications, the corruption is permeating society and people.
God help us to help others.
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skyrider
Lessons from Johnny Cash:
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chockfull
Drugs are complicated. Many times it involves self medication for mental illnesses. For example the most abused drugs are meth which is basically ADHD medication, and painkillers - fentanyl and heroin.
Also people have addictive behavior. For example many of us have addictive tendencies toward religion. I would say this is an element of cult recovery - to establish and maintain boundaries in life. I don’t think that necessarily leads to drugs except maybe unconscious escapism of some kind. This is the type of “guard your mind” skills that are necessary - not the “law of believing”.
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chockfull
This type of personal ministering and care I feel is exemplary of true Christianity.
I don’t know how a big church can duplicate it. It seems with the masses comes the lack of personal ministering many times or rather looking at donations and focusing attention on the rich donors is what happens.
One mega church I am familiar with did this through small groups or attempted to. They published a 30,000 person membership or participation in their small group numbers. Which is more twigs than the TWI has in the US for example. They have a group for example for non binary single mothers, basically whatever designation can be tagged there is a group for it.
The small groups may have done some good but there is still corruption in the larger and scandal and people type problems.
Some of this is a problem of human nature and governance at scale.
None of this applies to TWI. They are an org that has the control of a large group with numbers of a small group. Maybe they have mental illnesses in the control area and could use some medication. Maybe Drambuie and Kools were a form of self medication. To kill the pain of having to live with his true self.
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OldSkool
Well, lemme chime in as the local recovering alcoholic who has had SERIOUS battles with addiction.
You aleady stated many of the possible reasons why people turn to drugs and alcohol. But I wanna handle one you didnt mention. Drugs make a person feel good and allow a person to forget. Thats the exact root cause that led me to stay involved in drugs when I had a choice before I became an addict. Not too many people see the hook or feel the hook being set. I started off drinking and abusing drugs because my older sister thought it was funny to get me completely jacked up and pass out...I was 10. So while I really didnt have a snowballs chance when I was young, as I got older I chose drugs and alcohol. It was a lifestyle I desired and running the streets was who I was. I sobered up for a good while once I got involved with TWI, but never could admit that I was an alcoholic and should never touch alcohol again. So when my son was born and I caught the brunt of his major health problems I turned to alcohol to numb it out. By the time I was addicted I couldnt stop: literally. I was so physically hooked that my hands would start shaking aroun 3pm each day because the withdrawals were setting in while I had been working. Since Ive turned to Christ he has empowered me over my addiction as long as I dont drink. Sounds kinda simple, but I couldnt stop. I tried for three years to put the bottle down on my own and physically couldnt. The very day I turned to Christ and repented of my lifestyle I was able to quit cold turkey and havent touched a drop in several years now. Nobody sets out to be an addict, we are overtaken by addiction and dont see it even when we are in the midst of it's grip.
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Twinky
Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget. Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say). Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo. Awful. Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age.
Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others.
It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place. And then to come through that is serious success.
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skyrider
This post was directed at OldSkool, not me.
Other than that.....yes, kudos to OldSkool to come thru this experience with success.
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skyrider
I've been thinking about this and the question becomes...
HOW do you teach, persuade or school people to NOT BE SO D@MN GULLIBLE?
If you were to formulate a teaching series on helping people to overcome this... what would be your targeted objectives? Similar to teaching someone in high school how to debate effectively, how would you teach others to overcome this "gullible factor?" I have several thoughts on this, but will hold them in reserve to see what you deem necessary. Thanks in advance.
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OldSkool
Thanks! The encouragement means a lot.
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Twinky
Mea culpa. Apologies to Sky and OldSkool, but yes, I meant WELL DONE, OLDSKOOL.
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