Appreciate the namecalling. That made action a bit easier.
See you someday soon.
[My moderating action will be reviewed and is subject to being overturned].
Edit: (It has been reviewed and deemed appropriate)
I refuse to believe VPW was that convincing. There's no evidence. I heard the tapes. GSC is here to make him a god. Your crew seems to still feed the golden calf. GSC is no different than putting a billboard on the roadside. It's there. It's asking for attention. It blocks the view. What should have been handled in smaller bits was broadcasted all willy nilly. Everything has a price.
Reiterating the OP for this discussion thread, with minor edits. I chose to not employ the quote function of this text editing software because it cuts all but a few lines of the quoted text, and to me, it's awkward. One of my current books (that I'm reading) brought up the topic of fear. I believe that topic is salient, to discussion of the twi trap, similarly to how Charity's thread on Love draws salient contrast with Victor Wierwille's subculture.
By Skyrider
Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same. Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up. Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille.
So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block. How long will they stay in this cycle? Depends. Does it touch all the right buttons of nostalgia for those "good ole days?" Do they feel accepted and needed? Are they again (cough, cough) an intricate part of moving God's Word [pfal] to others?
For some.... do they keep questioning and looking diligently for answers? Or, do they settle into a "cozy" splinter group that, at first, welcomes them with open arms and doesn't ask for donations [yet]? If they keep asking the hard questions.... this splinter group, too, will not be filling their need. But if they settle in and stop questioning the deeper questions like, "Why did twi collapse so quickly? Why was lcm such an ego-driven maniac.... the one whom wierwille chose to be the 2nd president of twi? Why did wierwille teach that cancer is a devil spirit and later.... die of cancer? Why didn't wierwille get healed if he was "God's chosen" who taught solid principles of health and prosperity? Why did the trustees lie saying 'wierwille died of a broken heart?' Etc. etc. ??" When the door to questioning begins.....THEN can one find answers.
GreaseSpot Cafe offers the first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in a trap.
No other group offers this direct approach. Even though back in the 80's, Lynn's group, CES/STFI, offered up its list that diverged from twi.... it only went so far. At no time, did it delve into wierwille's questionable claims and mystique of "the man of God." And, of course.... Geer offered NOTHING but a posthumous accounting of wierwille's "greatness" and took it to levels of franchising classes. A legion of other splinters, too, chose to hang onto wierwille's coattails and ride the rails to the bank. But GSC, the successor ofWaydale, offers another way for twi-followers toGET OUT OF THIS TRAP.
With healthy discussions and vigorous debate....GSC allows participants to engage in open discussions. No questions are off-limits [except politics]. Neither twi nor its splinter groups allow for open, full-throated discussions in the public arena. Why the censorship? What are they protecting? We saw ALL OF THIS back in 1986 when the trustees prohibited anyone from reading John Schoenheit's research paper on "Adultery." Many corps leaders were fired and/or shunned for even reading it. Why was twi so afraid of uncovering the biblical truths regarding adultery? Any guesses? LOL
Fast forward to 2023.... and the censorship regarding questions about wierwille remain.
If all the trappings were stripped away, leaving only my true self, who would I be? Am I living fully as that self in every moment? And when it ends, will my story have meaning?”
Over the past half century, scientists have studied the relationship between fear and courage, and what they have found tends to confirm the wisdom of the ancient philosophers. Psychologist S. J. Rachman, in his seminal book Fear and Courage, concluded that fear has three components. A feeling of apprehension. A physical response (like a pounding heart, a queasy stomach, a knot of anxiety). And a change in behavior to escape the fear and quiet the response. Courage, Rachman continued, is a deliberate decision to override the change in behavior that is part of fear.
The courageous person faces fear, rather than try to escape it. In other words, without fear, there is no courage. One who senses no danger feels no apprehension. One who feels no apprehension has no desire to run away.
Lack of fear, in Rachman’s terminology, is not courage. It is simply ignorance of danger. Stoic philosophers have regarded courage as one of the four most important—cardinal—virtues, along with justice, prudence, and self-control.
I'm fully aware a discussion of fear would fit well in the doctrinal forum. However, I believe fear, just like love, was and probably still is central to the dogma around which Victor Wierwille built his subculture. Which is why I include it here.
In PFLAP, Victor taught "fear in the heart of that woman killed her child."
I wholeheartedly now believe that to be false doctrine.
Without fear -- and facing it head on -- there is no courage, according to SJ Rachman. Intuitively, that makes far more sense to me than anything I ever learned from Victor.
Frankly, it was a mindset influenced, if not directly inculcated from Victor Wierwille, that set my emotional and economic growth and progress back probably 30 years or more. That is, even though I began my journey to eradicate my waybrain 30 years ago and less than 20 years after I was tragically mis-programmed with fundamentalist CRAP.
I believe now that Victor Wierwille was completely off the mark from the very beginning.
Edited by Rocky insert link for The Book of Charlie on Goodreads
If all the trappings were stripped away, leaving only my true self, who would I be? Am I living fully as that self in every moment? And when it ends, will my story have meaning?”
Over the past half century, scientists have studied the relationship between fear and courage, and what they have found tends to confirm the wisdom of the ancient philosophers. Psychologist S. J. Rachman, in his seminal book Fear and Courage, concluded that fear has three components. A feeling of apprehension. A physical response (like a pounding heart, a queasy stomach, a knot of anxiety). And a change in behavior to escape the fear and quiet the response. Courage, Rachman continued, is a deliberate decision to override the change in behavior that is part of fear.
The courageous person faces fear, rather than try to escape it. In other words, without fear, there is no courage. One who senses no danger feels no apprehension. One who feels no apprehension has no desire to run away.
Lack of fear, in Rachman’s terminology, is not courage. It is simply ignorance of danger. Stoic philosophers have regarded courage as one of the four most important—cardinal—virtues, along with justice, prudence, and self-control.
I'm fully aware a discussion of fear would fit well in the doctrinal forum. However, I believe fear, just like love, was and probably still is central to the dogma around which Victor Wierwille built his subculture. Which is why I include it here.
In PFLAP, Victor taught "fear in the heart of that woman killed her child."
I wholeheartedly now believe that to be false doctrine.
Without fear -- and facing it head on -- there is no courage, according to SJ Rachman. Intuitively, that makes far more sense to me than anything I ever learned from Victor.
Frankly, it was a mindset influenced, if not directly inculcated from Victor Wierwille, that set my emotional and economic growth and progress back probably 30 years or more. That is, even though I began my journey to eradicate my waybrain 30 years ago and less than 20 years after I was tragically mis-programmed with fundamentalist CRAP.
I believe now that Victor Wierwille was completely off the mark from the very beginning.
Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups. They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry.
It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”. These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics.
Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue.
In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual.
It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary.
The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable. Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question.
I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades. But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time. Truth comes out. Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity.
Want to be a TWI leader? Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.
Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same. Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up. Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille.
So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block. How long will they stay in this cycle?
There are numerous questions I could articulate about Victor Wierwille based entirely on my experience and observations of him directly, and especially with his protégé, Loy C Martindale... while reflecting on THIS ancient wisdom. Btw, there are relevant, related scriptures in Proverbs that suggest this nugget from outside the Bible is at least as wise as those two goons (the first two presidents of the corporation).
Further, I would challenge former followers of Victor and/or Loy to honestly decide whether Marcus Aurelius had more godly wisdom (and courage) the either of them.
Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups. They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry.
It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”. These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics.
Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue.
In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual.
It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary.
The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable. Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question.
I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades. But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time. Truth comes out. Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity.
Want to be a TWI leader? Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.
Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!
Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!
There's quite a bit of commonality in how, as young people we were drawn to Victor's mess of a ministry.
I'm glad YOU (too, like me and so many others) are a survivor, Annio!
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Charity
I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend
skyrider
Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chos
skyrider
Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING. When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely. In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/sh
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modcat5
Appreciate the namecalling. That made action a bit easier.
See you someday soon.
[My moderating action will be reviewed and is subject to being overturned].
Edit: (It has been reviewed and deemed appropriate)
Edited by ModgellanLink to comment
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Bolshevik
I refuse to believe VPW was that convincing. There's no evidence. I heard the tapes. GSC is here to make him a god. Your crew seems to still feed the golden calf. GSC is no different than putting a billboard on the roadside. It's there. It's asking for attention. It blocks the view. What should have been handled in smaller bits was broadcasted all willy nilly. Everything has a price.
I figure 1 jerk = 1 month?
JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERKJERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK
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chockfull
Back to this topic about the benefits of GSC.
I ran across this quote by Nelson Mandela:
”For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others”
To me GSC has provided a platform for that.
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Rocky
What a lovely sentiment.
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waysider
None Of Us Are Free
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Rocky
However, it may be a matter of degrees...
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Rocky
Reiterating the OP for this discussion thread, with minor edits. I chose to not employ the quote function of this text editing software because it cuts all but a few lines of the quoted text, and to me, it's awkward. One of my current books (that I'm reading) brought up the topic of fear. I believe that topic is salient, to discussion of the twi trap, similarly to how Charity's thread on Love draws salient contrast with Victor Wierwille's subculture.
By Skyrider
Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same. Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up. Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille.
So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block. How long will they stay in this cycle? Depends. Does it touch all the right buttons of nostalgia for those "good ole days?" Do they feel accepted and needed? Are they again (cough, cough) an intricate part of moving God's Word [pfal] to others?
For some.... do they keep questioning and looking diligently for answers? Or, do they settle into a "cozy" splinter group that, at first, welcomes them with open arms and doesn't ask for donations [yet]? If they keep asking the hard questions.... this splinter group, too, will not be filling their need. But if they settle in and stop questioning the deeper questions like, "Why did twi collapse so quickly? Why was lcm such an ego-driven maniac.... the one whom wierwille chose to be the 2nd president of twi? Why did wierwille teach that cancer is a devil spirit and later.... die of cancer? Why didn't wierwille get healed if he was "God's chosen" who taught solid principles of health and prosperity? Why did the trustees lie saying 'wierwille died of a broken heart?' Etc. etc. ??" When the door to questioning begins.....THEN can one find answers.
GreaseSpot Cafe offers the first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in a trap.
No other group offers this direct approach. Even though back in the 80's, Lynn's group, CES/STFI, offered up its list that diverged from twi.... it only went so far. At no time, did it delve into wierwille's questionable claims and mystique of "the man of God." And, of course.... Geer offered NOTHING but a posthumous accounting of wierwille's "greatness" and took it to levels of franchising classes. A legion of other splinters, too, chose to hang onto wierwille's coattails and ride the rails to the bank. But GSC, the successor of Waydale, offers another way for twi-followers to GET OUT OF THIS TRAP.
With healthy discussions and vigorous debate....GSC allows participants to engage in open discussions. No questions are off-limits [except politics]. Neither twi nor its splinter groups allow for open, full-throated discussions in the public arena. Why the censorship? What are they protecting? We saw ALL OF THIS back in 1986 when the trustees prohibited anyone from reading John Schoenheit's research paper on "Adultery." Many corps leaders were fired and/or shunned for even reading it. Why was twi so afraid of uncovering the biblical truths regarding adultery? Any guesses? LOL
Fast forward to 2023.... and the censorship regarding questions about wierwille remain.
But not here..... not at GSC.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
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Rocky
From The Book of Charlie
If all the trappings were stripped away, leaving only my true self, who would I be? Am I living fully as that self in every moment? And when it ends, will my story have meaning?”
Over the past half century, scientists have studied the relationship between fear and courage, and what they have found tends to confirm the wisdom of the ancient philosophers. Psychologist S. J. Rachman, in his seminal book Fear and Courage, concluded that fear has three components. A feeling of apprehension. A physical response (like a pounding heart, a queasy stomach, a knot of anxiety). And a change in behavior to escape the fear and quiet the response. Courage, Rachman continued, is a deliberate decision to override the change in behavior that is part of fear.
The courageous person faces fear, rather than try to escape it. In other words, without fear, there is no courage. One who senses no danger feels no apprehension. One who feels no apprehension has no desire to run away.
Lack of fear, in Rachman’s terminology, is not courage. It is simply ignorance of danger. Stoic philosophers have regarded courage as one of the four most important—cardinal—virtues, along with justice, prudence, and self-control.
Von Drehle, David. The Book of Charlie: Wisdom from the Remarkable American Life of a 109-Year-Old Man (pp. 134-135). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.
I'm fully aware a discussion of fear would fit well in the doctrinal forum. However, I believe fear, just like love, was and probably still is central to the dogma around which Victor Wierwille built his subculture. Which is why I include it here.
In PFLAP, Victor taught "fear in the heart of that woman killed her child."
I wholeheartedly now believe that to be false doctrine.
Without fear -- and facing it head on -- there is no courage, according to SJ Rachman. Intuitively, that makes far more sense to me than anything I ever learned from Victor.
Frankly, it was a mindset influenced, if not directly inculcated from Victor Wierwille, that set my emotional and economic growth and progress back probably 30 years or more. That is, even though I began my journey to eradicate my waybrain 30 years ago and less than 20 years after I was tragically mis-programmed with fundamentalist CRAP.
I believe now that Victor Wierwille was completely off the mark from the very beginning.
Edited by Rockyinsert link for The Book of Charlie on Goodreads
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waysider
Ditto
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Nathan_Jr
Yep. This is an obvious, actual fact. Beleeef has nothing to do with it. Once seen, it cannot be unseen.
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chockfull
Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups. They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry.
It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”. These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics.
Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue.
In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual.
It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary.
The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable. Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question.
I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades. But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time. Truth comes out. Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity.
Want to be a TWI leader? Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.
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Rocky
There are numerous questions I could articulate about Victor Wierwille based entirely on my experience and observations of him directly, and especially with his protégé, Loy C Martindale... while reflecting on THIS ancient wisdom. Btw, there are relevant, related scriptures in Proverbs that suggest this nugget from outside the Bible is at least as wise as those two goons (the first two presidents of the corporation).
Further, I would challenge former followers of Victor and/or Loy to honestly decide whether Marcus Aurelius had more godly wisdom (and courage) the either of them.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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annio
Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!
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Rocky
There's quite a bit of commonality in how, as young people we were drawn to Victor's mess of a ministry.
I'm glad YOU (too, like me and so many others) are a survivor, Annio!
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annio
Thank you Rocky!!
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