Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.
Your one job is to forget. Never mention his name, the weekly who died last century. To disappear into the real world.
When the birds are silent the rest of us don't have to consider them.
Your posts raise more questions than they answer:
What are those “ unintended consequences?”
Twi-followers are mandated to stay away from the GSC website. How would blood-relatives know what you post unless you tell them OR they get on the GSC website themselves?
If they are going to this website, then they are disobeying their leadership AND out of fellowship with God, no?
If a 32-year old is still that beholden to what others think about his choices and lifestyle, then that person might want to set boundary lines so that he can live his authentic self, right?
Where does it say that MY job is to forget? I would argue the opposite. MY JOB IS TO REMEMBER, but still press forward to higher summits in life.
On one hand you have to fight The Way International, on the other you have to fight the people around the people using the information posted here for personal gain. We have blood relatives in there. GSC seeks to harm indiscriminately. You've known that for years.
My post you already read is [not] clear.
I think you're deliberately being ignorant on this, Chockful
You've tried to make this case for months. You have not made any sound argument. However, you have made clear ONLY how you view the situation.
What you also have not done is demonstrated whether anyone around the "people using the information posted here did so for personal gain." Nor have you demonstrated whether GSC posters "have to fight the people around the people..."
When you claim your post is clear to readers here, you step into Mike's shoes. Something written is not clear just because the writer says so. It can only be demonstrated to be clear if feedback provided by readers shows they understood what you intended to communicate.
Okay. I can take that claim at face value. Why? Because I have no basis for evaluating what you can vs what you cannot "see."
However, others HAVE said they "see" an overall positive effect of GSC. I realize in each case, the perception is subjective, unless there are data somewhere to provide basis for objective evaluation thereof.
When you claim your post is clear to readers here, you step into Mike's shoes. Something written is not clear just because the writer says so. It can only be demonstrated to be clear if feedback provided by readers shows they understood what you intended to communicate.
Exactly right, Rocky.
That's why this open forum model is so thought-provoking and welcomed. For years, we were preached to without any form of feedback. Oh sure, we had those break-out twigs at the Advanced Class..... but they were nothing short of rah-rah sessions to the previous session wierwille just taught. There was no allowance for alternative viewpoints.
If posts are unclear, we have every right and obligation to insist on more clarification. If the poster doesn't want to offer any.... then why state something and then, *cut and run?* When someone is "over their skis" it only seems charitable to point out their error. Else, as they fly thru the air downhill.... it's not going to be a pretty sight when they come crashing down to earth.
The opening post appears to me to compare Waydale/GSC to TWI and the spin-offs.
If you google "World Population" I think that number shown is much larger than the total PFAL grads. So large in fact PFAL grades divided by world population is essentially zero.
When this much larger group gets this information, what would they do to us?
Ok trying to process this one. TWI is a small cult. Not as small as Heavens Gate but small.
PFAL grads is a larger bucket I suppose.
When the world population gets this information, what would they do to us?
Mostly blow us off because it’s essentially zero?
I mean even our resident troll is blowing us off because we are so few in number we are insignificant.
Or are you saying the evil impact of my posting here far outweighs the insignificant numbers to the point of endangering other posters here?
Because of lurking family?
I mean if you got stalkers you got stalkers. I am not sure how TWI.org or GSC are going to influence that either way….
But I’ll try not to anger all the hit men who silently lurk on this site lol.
Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.
This actually is a KEY claim made by our good friend Bolshevik.
His beef with GSC has been contrary to THIS explicit claim.
Unintended denotes NOT INTENDED. Gsc, however has had intended consequence for TWI.
By definition, (if GSC was a person) the consequences which Bolshevik claims harmed him, were not the result of mens rea.
Therefore, IF Bolshevik's harm was caused by GSC, it was incidental and not intended.
Further, I argue (and conclude) Bolshevik's claimed harm, though perhaps tangible, was unforeseeable from the perspective of the more important purpose of shedding the light of truth and facts on TWI, an actual entity organized by law in the US. Additionally, with anything thus far disclosed or published on GSC, it is not possible to factually ascertain ANY intent on the part of anyone to use anything published on this website for "personal gain."
With the evidence that these websites influence those people around our families in The Way International, sites like Grease Spot Cafe remain a hindrance.
Greasespot Cafe is a way for PFAL grads to continue to act out their training, analogous to "defeating the adversary" by making nothing but noise.
Posting to the internet always has unintended consequences.
I reiterate, your conclusion (re GSC being a hinderance to something) is much to broad to be valid.
IF you were to narrow your argument substantially to frame it solely in terms of YOUR EXPERIENCE rather than "evidence (not cited) these websites influence those people around our families" in twi, you MIGHT be able to make a valid argument for YOU being harmed by the incidental, and apparently unintended consequences of disclosures on GSC. But that's NOT what you've done heretofore.
Gsc, however has had intended consequence for TWI.
WHAT intended consequences has GSC/Waydale had on TWI?
At minimum, as reported anecdotally, TWI operating procedures (written or unwritten) have demonstrably changed at least as a result of TWI perception(s) of risk of litigation.
Or are you saying the evil impact of my posting here far outweighs the insignificant numbers to the point of endangering other posters here?
Because of lurking family?
How is it that "lurking family" are allowed to lurk here at GSC? Has twi given deferential treatment to certain families to "spy" on their kids here at GSC? I mean, twi has said that it forbids their people to come to this website.... they might get possessed, they say. So which is it?
Get Possessed?
Or deferential treatment to bypass mandates... and not get possessed?
How many twi-followers lurk here? How are any of them to take twi-mandates seriously when some are given permission to come here while others are not? Does this have anything to do with "Being Spiritual Enough To Handle It?" Probably.
What a clown show. Just when you think it's about done.... another clown car pulls up and more clowns pop out.
Lots of people have come forth and claimed the GSC has helped them, over the years. So far, we've had a few people disagree with the GSC and laud vpw to the sky, but only one person seems to have claimed the GSC has been "harmful" to them, and that they see no benefit in it.
Well, as to "no benefit", they're definitely in the minority. Again, if there's no perceived value in posting somewhere, why post there?
Dunno. Rosalie was the paranoid technophobe. I’m sure it is still an unwritten directive. Or at least a teaching “avoid the appearance (form ) of evil” or some such nonsense.
A hushed phone call. “Did you know that so and so is ….. gasp …… posting on Greasespot?” “Oh no that vomitorium? They are losing their salt”. “It’s so negative there” “they are stuck in the past “ “they are re crucifying a dead man” “there’s nothing profitable on GSC”.
I don’t know if currently it is the rules or if it is just the extreme whitewash and gaslighting that they do internally about the site.
Dunno. Rosalie was the paranoid technophobe. I’m sure it is still an unwritten directive. Or at least a teaching “avoid the appearance (form ) of evil” or some such nonsense.
A hushed phone call. “Did you know that so and so is ….. gasp …… posting on Greasespot?” “Oh no that vomitorium? They are losing their salt”. “It’s so negative there” “they are stuck in the past “ “they are re crucifying a dead man” “there’s nothing profitable on GSC”.
I don’t know if currently it is the rules or if it is just the extreme whitewash and gaslighting that they do internally about the site.
There is NO doubt in my mind that there is an unwritten directive to .... STAY OFF THE GREASESPOT WEBSITE. It would fall under the same coded-language, unwritten, as their mark and avoid policies.... which together, these fall under the umbrella of damage control.
That's how twi survives. They have to employ *damage control* tactics in order to keep their people at a trickle exodus rather than the more aggressive stage of a torrent exodus. Individuals leaving here and there is (what I would term) "expected standard operating costs." They have a certain attrition rate that they maintain and are comfortable with. It's the big potatoes that they are concerned about.... big names exiting and taking swaths of their state with them. THAT cannot be allowed, and isn't.
Therefore, the unwritten directive to stay off the GreaseSpot website is in play. They know it is. We know it is. This is not some scavenger hunt like Where's Wally? We know where Wally is.... he's discharged an unwritten directive to all corps to monitor who's going to GSC and when found out, confront the individual(s).
To say nothing of people who were kicked out for posting here.
Yes, there have been several of those.
And, twi's security guards monitor Wierwille Rd as well.... intimidating, harassing, and chasing away anyone who might be driving too slowly on that road at night. Many of us remember a poster who, in real time, was posting her experience one night on wierwille rd and having twi's security suv following them really closely and intimidating her.
I can't see an overall positive affect of GSC. It simply exists as does TWI. Maybe it does good. But GSC claiming GSC does good is circular reasoning. I have to look elsewhere.
Okay, let's compare:
GreaseSpot Cafe
Allows free behavior, information, thought and emotion
Offers open forums with lively discussions and vigorous debate
Encourages different viewpoints, different backgrounds, different religions
Liberates the mind by exposing new ideas, concepts, books, and information
Welcomes, but then challenges statements contrary to principles of critical thinking
No shunning because of disagreements challenging moderators or posters
Offers anonymity to posters who do not want their lives in public view
Mission statement is to "tell the other side of trustees and twi"
Long-time posters help guide newbies to help and deliverance
Success to GSC is when someone leaves mentally healthy and whole again
The Way International
Restricts behavior, information, thought and emotion
Does not offer feedback channels nor question/answer sessions
Unites around wierwille doctrine and forbids seeking other men's teachings
Conforms the mind into groupthink mentality and wierwille adulation
Does not welcome expressions of doubt or criticism contrary to pfal teachings
Unwritten directives of mark and avoid are firmly in place
Publicly calls out dissenters and names them to shame them
Hides behind walls and closed doors to keep hold of power
Long-time corps help usher newbies thru classes and programs
Success to Twi is when someone is indoctrinated to twi-servitude
Allows free behavior, information, thought and emotion
Offers open forums with lively discussions and vigorous debate
Encourages different viewpoints, different backgrounds, different religions
Liberates the mind by exposing new ideas, concepts, books, and information
Welcomes, but then challenges statements contrary to principles of critical thinking
No shunning because of disagreements challenging moderators or posters
Offers anonymity to posters who do not want their lives in public view
Mission statement is to "tell the other side of trustees and twi"
Long-time posters help guide newbies to help and deliverance
Success to GSC is when someone leaves mentally healthy and whole again
The Way International
Restricts behavior, information, thought and emotion
Does not offer feedback channels nor question/answer sessions
Unites around wierwille doctrine and forbids seeking other men's teachings
Conforms the mind into groupthink mentality and wierwille adulation
Does not welcome expressions of doubt or criticism contrary to pfal teachings
Unwritten directives of mark and avoid are firmly in place
Publicly calls out dissenters and names them to shame them
Hides behind walls and closed doors to keep hold of power
Long-time corps help usher newbies thru classes and programs
Success to Twi is when someone is indoctrinated to twi-servitude
There is more that could be added to this list.
But these 10 are a running start.
Yes this is an objective list.
Now let’s talk $$$$.
GSC - probably Raf pays for a good chunk of it. That is a good call out to hit that donation button. Minimal expense.
TWI - requires your “abundant sharing” to access classes especially the Adv Class. Finances are hidden. Why? Because they are doing things they are proud of and want everyone to see? Or because they are doing things that Jesus will expose as corrupt at the bema? Or for the atheist they are doing things that would look bad publicly and get them in legal trouble due to unequal distribution of benefits.
So for every “believer” not the Mormon tithe because “God won’t even spit in your direction” but an added burden of 15-20% to play their games. And they check and take action on ABS or lack of it.
I think if you do a simple ROI even a simpleton can see way more benefit per $ at GSC than TWI.
Yes, there would be no comparison in terms of loss of finances, loss of other investments and the overall return on investment. Twi is all-take.... the follower is all-give.
Now, let's talk lifestyle:
What are the benefits to twi? Does it really help "harmony in the home?" Unless everyone is locked into groupthink mentality.... twi offers very little upside. Very little time for husband and wife to cultivate their marriage vows. They are busy running twigs, preparing for classes, driving to meetings. Separated from small children at meetings. Very few vacations as family.
What about career advancement? When one is running to every meeting under the sun, there is little time to be productive at your work. What happens when they need you for a weekend project? Do you refuse because it interferes with your class schedule? What about overtime? Not just because of the money, but because of the networking and opportunity of making strides upward in company management.
What about hobbies and weekend family get-togethers? If you are so burdened with witnessing days and weekend classes, then there is no time for hobbies. Woodworking? Gardening? Landscaping projects? Painting? Collecting antiques? What do you become except a twi-clone?
What if your lifestyle does not fit the twi-mold/ Homosexuality is strictly forbidden in twi.
What about academic achievements... Masters or PhD? Rarely does twi sanction anyone to further their education past a college degree. Why? Because they know that with academic professionals one is more likely to gain independence and fly away. They know from experience that working professionals and military have far more independence that the average-joe.
What about home ownership? Twi does not encourage corps grads to own homes. It puts a damper on moving them from one assignment to another. They can more easily control the person who has very little equity to his name.
So you see.... twi is a very restrictive construct to one's personal lifestyle and choices.
Yes, there would be no comparison in terms of loss of finances, loss of other investments and the overall return on investment. Twi is all-take.... the follower is all-give.
Now, let's talk lifestyle:
What are the benefits to twi? Does it really help "harmony in the home?" Unless everyone is locked into groupthink mentality.... twi offers very little upside. Very little time for husband and wife to cultivate their marriage vows. They are busy running twigs, preparing for classes, driving to meetings. Separated from small children at meetings. Very few vacations as family.
What about career advancement? When one is running to every meeting under the sun, there is little time to be productive at your work. What happens when they need you for a weekend project? Do you refuse because it interferes with your class schedule? What about overtime? Not just because of the money, but because of the networking and opportunity of making strides upward in company management.
What about hobbies and weekend family get-togethers? If you are so burdened with witnessing days and weekend classes, then there is no time for hobbies. Woodworking? Gardening? Landscaping projects? Painting? Collecting antiques? What do you become except a twi-clone?
What if your lifestyle does not fit the twi-mold/ Homosexuality is strictly forbidden in twi.
What about academic achievements... Masters or PhD? Rarely does twi sanction anyone to further their education past a college degree. Why? Because they know that with academic professionals one is more likely to gain independence and fly away. They know from experience that working professionals and military have far more independence that the average-joe.
What about home ownership? Twi does not encourage corps grads to own homes. It puts a damper on moving them from one assignment to another. They can more easily control the person who has very little equity to his name.
So you see.... twi is a very restrictive construct to one's personal lifestyle and choices.
Harmony in the home lol. How many personal accounts of divorce am I aware of that 100 percent trace back to TWI meddling in one way or another? A whole lot to summarize. They are a detriment to harmony in the home. VP was misogynistic and an adulterer as was LCM - how the f does this promote “harmony in the home”?
I am not aware of one single instance of GSC splitting up a marriage.
Now let’s talk suicide. I’m aware of a handful of these directly attributed to TWI. And if you add in accidental deaths due to TWI influence it would be higher.
GSC? Even our most prolific trolls enjoy a healthy life outside the sphere of our influence.
Academics - the Way basically takes the credentials the individual earned and diverts it for their own purposes. Like Don Wierwille. Like Chandler Greene. This doesn’t benefit the person or anyone else other than stealing their credentials for propping up their legitimacy. No accreditation for the Corps program.
Home ownership - the Pharisees in TWI get around this restriction by having relatives carry mortgages or like Rosalie buying supplies for pennies on the dollar and getting free labor to build a house with no mortgage ever.
GSC would pass along mortgage tips, resources etc.
Harmony in the home lol. How many personal accounts of divorce am I aware of that 100 percent trace back to TWI meddling in one way or another? A whole lot to summarize. They are a detriment to harmony in the home. VP was misogynistic and an adulterer as was LCM - how the f does this promote “harmony in the home”?
I am not aware of one single instance of GSC splitting up a marriage.
Now let’s talk suicide. I’m aware of a handful of these directly attributed to TWI. And if you add in accidental deaths due to TWI influence it would be higher.
GSC? Even our most prolific trolls enjoy a healthy life outside the sphere of our influence.
Academics - the Way basically takes the credentials the individual earned and diverts it for their own purposes. Like Don Wierwille. Like Chandler Greene. This doesn’t benefit the person or anyone else other than stealing their credentials for propping up their legitimacy. No accreditation for the Corps program.
Home ownership - the Pharisees in TWI get around this restriction by having relatives carry mortgages or like Rosalie buying supplies for pennies on the dollar and getting free labor to build a house with no mortgage ever.
GSC would pass along mortgage tips, resources etc.
You make some great points that I bold-faced from your post, Chockfull.
Not only does twi discourage secondary education beyond the college degree.... but if someone does get a master's or Phd, then twi tries to profit off those credentials. Twi is always sniffing around for an opportunity to profit the ministry's advancement, NOT the individual per se. If they smell "blood in the water" they are like sharks hungry for more.
And, our Associate's Theology Degrees accredited from Rome City, Indiana Campus weren't worth the piece of paper they were printed on. That, too, was a bait-and-switch. How about Don's pet project at Emporia of the College Division? How long did that last before it bit the dust?
Secondly, you mentioned the home ownership where relatives carried the mortgages. I started a thread years ago on "Back Door Mortgages" and gave examples of several corps grads, clergy, who were doing just that. Apparently, they too had seen the benefits of home ownership CONTRARY to twi's policies of mortgages classified as debt. What a farce that was. I would imagine that lots of those corps grads who exited in 2017 with the "Revival and Restoration Group" would have liked to bought a home in 2000. Prices were much lower and they would have built 17 years of equity rather than renting.
Understandably, some of these corps grads passed that window of opportunity and now, in their late 60's or early 70's are "stuck" in a rental apartment. Missing out on say 20-30 years of equity-building when you're in your 30's really sucks when you hit 68 and think about it. Twi pulled a deceptive trick over your head and it costs you big time.
to twi's policies of mortgages classified as debt. What a farce that was.
Crazy you should mention that. I mean a lease is a contract to pay each month what is owed in full, thus qualifying as debt, but a lease has a stated term and that term is typicall short. So it really couldnt be that it was "debt" in and of itself that was in the directors craw back then. Im thinking it boiled down to dwindling numbers in the way corps and way disciple, or whatever other outreach program was running at the time and a "prevailing" reason given by those who were pressured but declined to participate is "well,I cant just up and leave my mortgage." And onwards it went...I dont know that for sure, its speculation. But I have learned that most times with these bone heads that once you have enough pieces of the puzzle you can pretty much figure it out.
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Charity
I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend
skyrider
Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group. Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chos
skyrider
Asking questions, free from censorship..... is EMPOWERING. When the mind is free from twi-censorship.... questions flow freely. In my opinion, one begins to realize how many more questions he/sh
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skyrider
Your posts raise more questions than they answer:
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Rocky
Says who? How would you know your claim is true?
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Rocky
In your claim, it's unclear whether your comparison is apt or fallacy.
https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/
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Rocky
You've tried to make this case for months. You have not made any sound argument. However, you have made clear ONLY how you view the situation.
What you also have not done is demonstrated whether anyone around the "people using the information posted here did so for personal gain." Nor have you demonstrated whether GSC posters "have to fight the people around the people..."
When you claim your post is clear to readers here, you step into Mike's shoes. Something written is not clear just because the writer says so. It can only be demonstrated to be clear if feedback provided by readers shows they understood what you intended to communicate.
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Rocky
Okay. I can take that claim at face value. Why? Because I have no basis for evaluating what you can vs what you cannot "see."
However, others HAVE said they "see" an overall positive effect of GSC. I realize in each case, the perception is subjective, unless there are data somewhere to provide basis for objective evaluation thereof.
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skyrider
Exactly right, Rocky.
That's why this open forum model is so thought-provoking and welcomed. For years, we were preached to without any form of feedback. Oh sure, we had those break-out twigs at the Advanced Class..... but they were nothing short of rah-rah sessions to the previous session wierwille just taught. There was no allowance for alternative viewpoints.
If posts are unclear, we have every right and obligation to insist on more clarification. If the poster doesn't want to offer any.... then why state something and then, *cut and run?* When someone is "over their skis" it only seems charitable to point out their error. Else, as they fly thru the air downhill.... it's not going to be a pretty sight when they come crashing down to earth.
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chockfull
Ok trying to process this one. TWI is a small cult. Not as small as Heavens Gate but small.
PFAL grads is a larger bucket I suppose.
When the world population gets this information, what would they do to us?
Mostly blow us off because it’s essentially zero?
I mean even our resident troll is blowing us off because we are so few in number we are insignificant.
Or are you saying the evil impact of my posting here far outweighs the insignificant numbers to the point of endangering other posters here?
Because of lurking family?
I mean if you got stalkers you got stalkers. I am not sure how TWI.org or GSC are going to influence that either way….
But I’ll try not to anger all the hit men who silently lurk on this site lol.
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Rocky
This actually is a KEY claim made by our good friend Bolshevik.
His beef with GSC has been contrary to THIS explicit claim.
Unintended denotes NOT INTENDED. Gsc, however has had intended consequence for TWI.
By definition, (if GSC was a person) the consequences which Bolshevik claims harmed him, were not the result of mens rea.
Therefore, IF Bolshevik's harm was caused by GSC, it was incidental and not intended.
Further, I argue (and conclude) Bolshevik's claimed harm, though perhaps tangible, was unforeseeable from the perspective of the more important purpose of shedding the light of truth and facts on TWI, an actual entity organized by law in the US. Additionally, with anything thus far disclosed or published on GSC, it is not possible to factually ascertain ANY intent on the part of anyone to use anything published on this website for "personal gain."
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Rocky
I reiterate, your conclusion (re GSC being a hinderance to something) is much to broad to be valid.
IF you were to narrow your argument substantially to frame it solely in terms of YOUR EXPERIENCE rather than "evidence (not cited) these websites influence those people around our families" in twi, you MIGHT be able to make a valid argument for YOU being harmed by the incidental, and apparently unintended consequences of disclosures on GSC. But that's NOT what you've done heretofore.
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Rocky
WHAT intended consequences has GSC/Waydale had on TWI?
At minimum, as reported anecdotally, TWI operating procedures (written or unwritten) have demonstrably changed at least as a result of TWI perception(s) of risk of litigation.
Anything else?
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skyrider
How is it that "lurking family" are allowed to lurk here at GSC? Has twi given deferential treatment to certain families to "spy" on their kids here at GSC? I mean, twi has said that it forbids their people to come to this website.... they might get possessed, they say. So which is it?
How many twi-followers lurk here? How are any of them to take twi-mandates seriously when some are given permission to come here while others are not? Does this have anything to do with "Being Spiritual Enough To Handle It?" Probably.
What a clown show. Just when you think it's about done.... another clown car pulls up and more clowns pop out.
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waysider
Do they still do this? Just curious.
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WordWolf
Lots of people have come forth and claimed the GSC has helped them, over the years. So far, we've had a few people disagree with the GSC and laud vpw to the sky, but only one person seems to have claimed the GSC has been "harmful" to them, and that they see no benefit in it.
Well, as to "no benefit", they're definitely in the minority. Again, if there's no perceived value in posting somewhere, why post there?
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chockfull
Dunno. Rosalie was the paranoid technophobe. I’m sure it is still an unwritten directive. Or at least a teaching “avoid the appearance (form ) of evil” or some such nonsense.
A hushed phone call. “Did you know that so and so is ….. gasp …… posting on Greasespot?” “Oh no that vomitorium? They are losing their salt”. “It’s so negative there” “they are stuck in the past “ “they are re crucifying a dead man” “there’s nothing profitable on GSC”.
I don’t know if currently it is the rules or if it is just the extreme whitewash and gaslighting that they do internally about the site.
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skyrider
There is NO doubt in my mind that there is an unwritten directive to .... STAY OFF THE GREASESPOT WEBSITE. It would fall under the same coded-language, unwritten, as their mark and avoid policies.... which together, these fall under the umbrella of damage control.
That's how twi survives. They have to employ *damage control* tactics in order to keep their people at a trickle exodus rather than the more aggressive stage of a torrent exodus. Individuals leaving here and there is (what I would term) "expected standard operating costs." They have a certain attrition rate that they maintain and are comfortable with. It's the big potatoes that they are concerned about.... big names exiting and taking swaths of their state with them. THAT cannot be allowed, and isn't.
Therefore, the unwritten directive to stay off the GreaseSpot website is in play. They know it is. We know it is. This is not some scavenger hunt like Where's Wally? We know where Wally is.... he's discharged an unwritten directive to all corps to monitor who's going to GSC and when found out, confront the individual(s).
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WordWolf
To say nothing of people who were kicked out for posting here.
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skyrider
Yes, there have been several of those.
And, twi's security guards monitor Wierwille Rd as well.... intimidating, harassing, and chasing away anyone who might be driving too slowly on that road at night. Many of us remember a poster who, in real time, was posting her experience one night on wierwille rd and having twi's security suv following them really closely and intimidating her.
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skyrider
Okay, let's compare:
GreaseSpot Cafe
The Way International
There is more that could be added to this list.
But these 10 are a running start.
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chockfull
Yes this is an objective list.
Now let’s talk $$$$.
GSC - probably Raf pays for a good chunk of it. That is a good call out to hit that donation button. Minimal expense.
TWI - requires your “abundant sharing” to access classes especially the Adv Class. Finances are hidden. Why? Because they are doing things they are proud of and want everyone to see? Or because they are doing things that Jesus will expose as corrupt at the bema? Or for the atheist they are doing things that would look bad publicly and get them in legal trouble due to unequal distribution of benefits.
So for every “believer” not the Mormon tithe because “God won’t even spit in your direction” but an added burden of 15-20% to play their games. And they check and take action on ABS or lack of it.
I think if you do a simple ROI even a simpleton can see way more benefit per $ at GSC than TWI.
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skyrider
Yes, there would be no comparison in terms of loss of finances, loss of other investments and the overall return on investment. Twi is all-take.... the follower is all-give.
Now, let's talk lifestyle:
So you see.... twi is a very restrictive construct to one's personal lifestyle and choices.
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chockfull
Harmony in the home lol. How many personal accounts of divorce am I aware of that 100 percent trace back to TWI meddling in one way or another? A whole lot to summarize. They are a detriment to harmony in the home. VP was misogynistic and an adulterer as was LCM - how the f does this promote “harmony in the home”?
I am not aware of one single instance of GSC splitting up a marriage.
Now let’s talk suicide. I’m aware of a handful of these directly attributed to TWI. And if you add in accidental deaths due to TWI influence it would be higher.
GSC? Even our most prolific trolls enjoy a healthy life outside the sphere of our influence.
Academics - the Way basically takes the credentials the individual earned and diverts it for their own purposes. Like Don Wierwille. Like Chandler Greene. This doesn’t benefit the person or anyone else other than stealing their credentials for propping up their legitimacy. No accreditation for the Corps program.
Home ownership - the Pharisees in TWI get around this restriction by having relatives carry mortgages or like Rosalie buying supplies for pennies on the dollar and getting free labor to build a house with no mortgage ever.
GSC would pass along mortgage tips, resources etc.
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skyrider
You make some great points that I bold-faced from your post, Chockfull.
Not only does twi discourage secondary education beyond the college degree.... but if someone does get a master's or Phd, then twi tries to profit off those credentials. Twi is always sniffing around for an opportunity to profit the ministry's advancement, NOT the individual per se. If they smell "blood in the water" they are like sharks hungry for more.
And, our Associate's Theology Degrees accredited from Rome City, Indiana Campus weren't worth the piece of paper they were printed on. That, too, was a bait-and-switch. How about Don's pet project at Emporia of the College Division? How long did that last before it bit the dust?
Secondly, you mentioned the home ownership where relatives carried the mortgages. I started a thread years ago on "Back Door Mortgages" and gave examples of several corps grads, clergy, who were doing just that. Apparently, they too had seen the benefits of home ownership CONTRARY to twi's policies of mortgages classified as debt. What a farce that was. I would imagine that lots of those corps grads who exited in 2017 with the "Revival and Restoration Group" would have liked to bought a home in 2000. Prices were much lower and they would have built 17 years of equity rather than renting.
Understandably, some of these corps grads passed that window of opportunity and now, in their late 60's or early 70's are "stuck" in a rental apartment. Missing out on say 20-30 years of equity-building when you're in your 30's really sucks when you hit 68 and think about it. Twi pulled a deceptive trick over your head and it costs you big time.
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OldSkool
Board of Directors
Rev. Vern Edwards
Rev. Bill Greene
Dr. Angela Priester
Rev. John Rupp
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OldSkool
Crazy you should mention that. I mean a lease is a contract to pay each month what is owed in full, thus qualifying as debt, but a lease has a stated term and that term is typicall short. So it really couldnt be that it was "debt" in and of itself that was in the directors craw back then. Im thinking it boiled down to dwindling numbers in the way corps and way disciple, or whatever other outreach program was running at the time and a "prevailing" reason given by those who were pressured but declined to participate is "well,I cant just up and leave my mortgage." And onwards it went...I dont know that for sure, its speculation. But I have learned that most times with these bone heads that once you have enough pieces of the puzzle you can pretty much figure it out.
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