On God-Breathed Scriptures

[cman]

these stages or levels are not like a ladder to climb, more like a room to roll around in and knock some walls down for more room, in an awkward way sometimes, but also a focused way to see and know more 6 or 7 or maybe 12 or even 4, lots of rooms connected

[cman]

or 144000, whatever, and just call it levels of, or stages of... is to use language as a comma sort of

also faith is a good word to use but others could work I suppose

[sirguessalot]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:06 PM, Rocky said:

I think your last two sentences (which I quoted above) are quite profound. It shows how you think about shame. Its a metaphorical thought process. It awes me to consider the profundity.

Appreciate the feedback. Sentences like that seem to spill out suddenly, but only after half a life of silent reflections. I owe it to holding Genesis with more of an indigenous Hebraic consideration, which at least involves myth, metaphor and symbol as not only valid, but quite vital for navigating the landscapes and events of inner nature.

On 12/24/2023 at 5:13 PM, cman said:

these stages or levels are not like a ladder to climb, more like a room to roll around in and knock some walls down for more room, in an awkward way sometimes, but also a focused way to see and know more 6 or 7 or maybe 12 or even 4, lots of rooms connected

I like this. Reminds me of those "many mansions" of the Gospels, or St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, or the notion of "structures of consciousness." As if not only are we a well-populated garden within, but there is architecture (including ruins). Walls, windows and doors, oh my. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by sirguessalot

[Ham]

On 12/15/2023 at 1:07 PM, sirguessalot said:

“There is no basis for rejecting PFAL as God-breathed that does not apply equally to scriptures that have been considered God-breathed since there was a canon.”

Agreed. Seems to me that any interpretations and applications of any curated set of our world’s wisdom literature that flies in the same altitudes as TWI does with the Bible are as easily rejectable on all the same basis. That such a high percentage of humanity does exactly this is not only an enduring source of misery and woe, but reinforces the rejection of the remedy…which is not a wholesale rejection of the text, as is often quite popular, nor a tame watering down, but rather a regeneration of more sound, sane, wise and mature interpretations and applications of the very same bodies of text.

Ham, please correct if I am missing your point here, but this seems to point to one related conclusion I reached some years ago.

"Rejecting the Bible.. because. 

One person I know rejects it because he thinks that it is written by a group of primitives who think that Men should rule the world, justify various forms of slavery, etc. etc.  I would argue differently- it is written TO a group of primitives who think that men should be the final authority in the house, settle disagreements by war, enslave their fellow man.."

Many modern folks complain how the Bible is too-male oriented, when that male-orientation may be a primary point all along. And not just warnings TO cavemen, but stories for mothers and elders to tell children ABOUT cavemen.

From indigenous Hebraic wisdom stories warning about the very real immediate danger of even one un-initiated boy aging into adulthood (Cain, etc...), to apocalyptic warnings about what masculine-only dominance looks like after cultures, societies and the planet itself finally fills up with hydras of very horny self-authorized liars, thieves and murderers worshipping money and gobbling real estate. As if one dominant theme of the Bible is that there is no greater life-destroying force on Earth than when immature masculinity takes control. Even the New Testament's opening warnings about homosexuality seem more like warnings about the very real dangers of immature masculine-only attitudes (war, slavery, etc..), not queer nature. Talk about a red thread. 

Also, like what Cman said: “it boils down to fear of death, all the crap people come up with, they can't face the devil....”

Because yes, extreme avoidance of the nature and reality of dying and an inability to allow light on one’s own inner shadows are both key unmistakable symptoms of this un-initiated masculinity, where the Bible (and/or other sacred texts and religious acts) are seen quite childishly as a powerful magical way to avoid death and fight demons, which is kinda cute when its a 3-year old. Not so much when its mobs of self-authorized rich, powerful, old fools. 

OK.. what I think- the bible was not written BY a group of male dominated, war mongering, self serving legalistic group of homo-sapiens.  It was written TO them.  "they" are still pretty much the majority here.. some of us heard the message and changed. 

The Old testament sets limits on primitive unbridled barbarism.. can't hold another individual  captive beyond seven years or so..

 

I am beginning to appreciate how revolutionary the old testament law actually was in that culture.

The people of that era regularly sacrificed their offspring through fire to some godless deity.. even up to the times of Abraham.. the grand tradition continued despite being given a god who would accept animal blood vs human.  

The kind of people the law was addressed to..

 

Even Solomon.  it took centuries to root out the madness that he followed- not until the days of Hezekiah and Josiah was Tophet defiled..   the high places thrown down..

I don't think that people have changed that much since then.

 

 

[Ham]

And then God gives them a real break in NT days.. redemption.  OK.. you want the sacrifice of all sacrifices, out of pure LOVE- you've got it.  No more special designations, no more one group over another.. all are welcome.

 

The People- "its not good enough.  How is THAT going to make me money.. and forgiveness.. what's with that?  "They" still owe me.. and why should I trust a Living God when I have uncertain riches to get me by.."

 

Well, the people- for the most part. 

 

 

[Ham]

In the intervening years.. I think that God has tried almost everything with this people.. heh.

 

Wars to fight that which we should not be.. even on grand scales.

 

substances in the sixties with which one could generally see god and the universe..  everything else pretty much small in comparison..   the government is pretty much to blame (or praised, depending on your point of view here).  Gave Acid to Christians.. Leary was actually pretty realistic.  Don't like what the world is doing?  Don't participate.  Don't like it? Don't support it. 

Personally.  The Sunday School teacher in my second grade gave me something just about as powerful.. just could not warn me about the real consequences of believing it.

 

 

[Ham]

Hope I have not bothered anybody here.. 

What does all of this have to do with god-breathed scripture..

 

if there isn't such a thing people really need it..

 

 

 

[chockfull]

I’m not bothered by any of this discussion.  This gets down to what people look to for inspiration.

If there is some kind of common code for virtue a society can agree on it helps things flow in a community type of construct.

If there is not then you have megalomaniacs setting themselves up as the sole source for virtue.  And varying degrees of disagreement based upon the success of the narcissistic message.

[Ham]

Heh.  Hmm.. good point here..

Might be horrible, but generally I write my own religion.  Not that I want to Rule over the masses..

There are times that passages from the bible come alive to me- other times.. mathematics.

The class I was instructing- it was a business calculus  class.  When we started into linear programming- it spoke to me.

I believe that God can breath in more than one context..

and how did the current material affect a business students philosophy- at the moment it turned to philosophy.  How do you want to run your business.. what is feasible.. probably, the chances of just opening shop and having a million orders at the door step will not be very likely- even in a War economy.  We will need to plan.  Of course the other side of the world plans ultimate destruction-  what do you do, just give up?  Suppose that the end of the world never materializes and you did not plan your business within bounds-  that is in a region of feasibility.

I dunno.  Of the maybe three or four "real" religious experiences I have had.. that was probabably the best.

A student actually had the question- what do we do, we have absolutely no idea of what is to come..

 

Well.. as human beings.. I suppose that we have a positive attitude.

We plan anyway.

 

[sirguessalot]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:40 PM, Ham said:

Hope I have not bothered anybody here.. 

What does all of this have to do with god-breathed scripture..

 

if there isn't such a thing people really need it..

No bother here. I dig your riffs.  

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

If there is some kind of common code for virtue a society can agree on it helps things flow in a community type of construct.

If there is not then you have megalomaniacs setting themselves up as the sole source for virtue.  And varying degrees of disagreement based upon the success of the narcissistic message.

Reminds me how healthy cultures seem to develop various rites of passage to initiate us into and through various stages and events of life, and one of the first most vital functions of such is to at least midwife new egos beyond mere ego-centricity. For while even one teenage brat could have serious consequences for a small tribe, multi-generational mobs of adult brats eventually generate all that is Hell on Earth. 

Unfortunately, it seems too late for prevention. Fortunately, perhaps we can still plant seeds. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by sirguessalot

[Ham]

46 minutes ago, sirguessalot said:

No bother here. I dig your riffs. "God-breathed scripture" can certainly seem to rise from the dead. 

Reminds me how healthy cultures seem to develop various rites of passage to initiate us into and through various stages and events of life, and one of the first most vital functions of such is to at least midwife new egos beyond mere ego-centricity. For while even one teenage brat could have serious consequences for a small tribe, multi-generational mobs of adult brats eventually generate all that is Hell on Earth. 

Unfortunately, it seems too late for prevention. Fortunately, perhaps we can still plant seeds. 

Heh.  all that is hell on earth..

 

Except for a few exceptions.. we have not trained our young..  some of us have, or have tried.

 

They will step back into the shadows, I know some who will thrive there.  I did.. from the last generation.  Where do we go from here.. I can hide out, raise hens and grow tomatoes.. heh.  Well.. for about another ten years or so. 

 

 

[Ham]

and at night.. I will still read the Bible.. books on mathematics, and pray for divine wisdom.  For Fellowship with God..

 

What about you.. 

 

 

[Ham]

Sometimes listen to music..

 

[chockfull]

10 hours ago, Ham said:

and at night.. I will still read the Bible.. books on mathematics, and pray for divine wisdom.  For Fellowship with God..

 

What about you.. 

 

 

Yeah I still read the Bible and pray.  I haven’t come across much inspiration in math lately - most of the modern AI is elementary statistical modeling with a huge training set.

Praying kind of is a fellowship with God to me.

Wisdom is a mixed bag.  Most of what I have I gained through pain.  I have had a few you could call “divine intervention wisdom” where certain info got to me to change my action course.  Mostly I feel it is developed through being aware of yourself and your surroundings - the constructs of emotional intelligence are the beginnings of wisdom.

Religious zealots have a remarkable lack of awareness of any self flaws and society so are very low on the wisdom scale of any kind including God rescuing their sorry behinds.

Yeah just navigating my own salvation and growth in Christ and it looks a lot different than the construct under cult authority.

[Rocky]

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Most of what I have I gained through pain.

You and me (and many others who have survived to become "seniors") both. 

we^[b] boast in the hope of the glory of God. ³ Not only so, but we^[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; ⁴ perseverance, character; and character, hope. ⁵ And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. 

From Romans 5, NIV.  

[Ham]

13 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah I still read the Bible and pray.  I haven’t come across much inspiration in math lately - most of the modern AI is elementary statistical modeling with a huge training set.

Praying kind of is a fellowship with God to me.

Wisdom is a mixed bag.  Most of what I have I gained through pain.  I have had a few you could call “divine intervention wisdom” where certain info got to me to change my action course.  Mostly I feel it is developed through being aware of yourself and your surroundings - the constructs of emotional intelligence are the beginnings of wisdom.

Religious zealots have a remarkable lack of awareness of any self flaws and society so are very low on the wisdom scale of any kind including God rescuing their sorry behinds.

Yeah just navigating my own salvation and growth in Christ and it looks a lot different than the construct under cult authority.

Yes it does, doesn't it.

 

very much different.  and far more accountable..

the Trips are getting harder.. not that I am complaining.

emothional intelligence.. maybe there is such a thing.. if you have found this.. god bless you.

 

pretty much thought.. wisdom brings pain.. or is it the other way around.. maybe both are the same.

 

[sirguessalot]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:16 PM, Ham said:

and at night.. I will still read the Bible.. books on mathematics, and pray for divine wisdom.  For Fellowship with God..

 

What about you.. 

 

 

Likewise-ish. Daily Bible, praying like never before, music as medicine, and gobs of math due constant streams of construction, engineering, agricultural tasks. Currently on much-needed reflective pause after a few years of the hardest digging of my life. Anticipating a period of deepening now that so much old clay has been broken. Feeling more prepared than ever for the next waves of pain and heartbreak emerging on the horizon. Seems all old words and habits are indeed potentially renewable and redeemable. Who, what, when, where, why and how "God" is has been quite an odyssey. 

[cman]

swimming in the deep parts of the ocean has it's waves for sure

getting into some more basics of life and living helps although it feels like the shallows,

deeper than I think and it is something needed to be done....

[chockfull]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:09 PM, Ham said:

Yes it does, doesn't it.

 

very much different.  and far more accountable..

the Trips are getting harder.. not that I am complaining.

emothional intelligence.. maybe there is such a thing.. if you have found this.. god bless you.

 

pretty much thought.. wisdom brings pain.. or is it the other way around.. maybe both are the same.

 

Emotional intelligence seems to me like a healthy balance.  I usually find this balance while swinging by it on a Tarzan rope 

[Raf]

I've totally lost track of this thread. Everyone ok with it? No moderating needed?