And ultimately they reject the New Testament as God-breathed on the same grounds that you reject PFAL. They reject the writers and the profitability of their message. It's uncanny.
And ultimately they reject the New Testament as God-breathed on the same grounds that you reject PFAL. They reject the writers and the profitability of their message. It's uncanny.
What is uncanny is your ability to see into all the people I’ve interacted with and tell me their thoughts.
The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.
They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.
Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.
The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.
But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:
1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?
2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?
The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.
They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.
Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.
The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.
But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:
1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?
2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?
1. They don’t accept the Messiah. Or most don’t. There are Messianic Jews who do. And those don’t reject inspiration of NT.
They don't accept the Messiah BECAUSE they don't accept the inspiration of the NT, not the other way around.
With respect, your recent posts on this thread suggest you have NOT dropped your stake in this subject years ago.
The purpose of discussion is not to win. Chockful isn't likely to change your position, unless something like happened to Paul on the road to Damascus happens to you. Likewise, you're not going to change his position unless...
IOW, why do your comments sound like you haven't let go of the subject?
I don't GAF what anyone's position is on this topic. I just feel compelled to make the point about discussion not being a contact sport.
They don't accept the Messiah BECAUSE they don't accept the inspiration of the NT, not the other way around.
Im not being persnickty here, but just connecting a few historical dots. Of all the groups in Judea at the time (Sadducess, Herodians, Scribes, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Zealots, etc) the group that won the support of the people and therefore survived the day was the Pharisees. The Pharisees is the main group that had Jesus Christ crucified. They rejected Jesus as the Messiach. It was from the Pharisees that modern day Judaism took it's roots. That rejection stayed put and if anything gained steam as Christianity gained steam. So it wasnt so much a rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament but a blanket rejection of anything to do with Jesus Christ, and thus rejection of the New Testament surely followed as well as inspiration of anything else Christ like. Thats a summation from memory so I may be a tad bit off on a point or two so feel to correct as needed. I can provide some references later if you guys wanna read along. Peace!
I'll engage in a conversation as long as there's a conversation in which to engage.
"I dropped my stake in this argument a decade ago" is about the argument over whether the Bible is God-breathed and whether PFAL is God-breathed and what God-breathed even means.
That's NOT what this discussion and dialog have been about. What we're discussing here is the parallel between the arguments and methods used to defend or reject PFAL as compared to those used to reject and defend the Bible. I contend those methods are precisely the same. That's THIS discussion, and I never claimed to be uninterested in the conversation.
But you are correct: At some point the points are made and it's time to move on.
Im not being persnickty here, but just connecting a few historical dots. Of all the groups in Judea at the time (Sadducess, Herodians, Scribes, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Zealots, etc) the group that won the support of the people and therefore survived the day was the Pharisees. The Pharisees is the main group that had Jesus Christ crucified. They rejected Jesus as the Messiach. It was from the Pharisees that modern day Judaism took it's roots. That rejection stayed put and if anything gained steam as Christianity gained steam. So it wasnt so much a rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament but a blanket rejection of anything to do with Jesus Christ, and thus rejection of the New Testament surely followed as well as inspiration of anything else Christ like. Thats a summation from memory so I may be a tad bit off on a point or two so feel to correct as needed. I can provide some references later if you guys wanna read along. Peace!
They were interested in retaining their own power and influence, Jesus rejected what he called the traditions of men, which was basically the Babylonian Talmud and the oral traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held in higher regard than Torah. I mean there's more...you want all or is just a couple clif notes sufficient?
Ok, so we have the Torah (the Bible) and the Babylonian Talmud/traditions of men (PFAL) and the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he rejected the Babylonian Talmud (PFAL) and thereby posed a threat to their power and influence. The Pharisees in this comparison are Mike, minus the Power and Influence, as he has none.
I think Power and Influence is where my analogy falls apart, because we in this conversation do not really have any, so we're more of the laity than "Pharisees" or The Vatican.
But I wouldn't presume that anyone in this group rejects PFAL as God-breathed merely because some higher-up is pressuring us to maintain power.
I would contend, nonetheless, that 2,000 someodd years later, no Jews are worried about maintaining Pharasaic power and influence. If you ask them, they reject Jesus on scriptural grounds. They don't reject the New Testament because they reject Jesus. It's the other way around.
But that's my contention and I have no qualms if you decline to embrace it.
Ok, so we have the Torah (the Bible) and the Babylonian Talmud/traditions of men (PFAL) and the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he rejected the Babylonian Talmud (PFAL) and thereby posed a threat to their power and influence. The Pharisees in this comparison are Mike, minus the Power and Influence, as he has none.
I think Power and Influence is where my analogy falls apart, because we in this conversation do not really have any, so we're more of the laity than "Pharisees" or The Vatican.
But I wouldn't presume that anyone in this group rejects PFAL as God-breathed merely because some higher-up is pressuring us to maintain power.
I would contend, nonetheless, that 2,000 someodd years later, no Jews are worried about maintaining Pharasaic power and influence. If you ask them, they reject Jesus on scriptural grounds. They don't reject the New Testament because they reject Jesus. It's the other way around.
But that's my contention and I have no qualms if you decline to embrace it.
It was historical. Would you agree that it was an oversimplified history that did not fully account for Pharisaic devotion to the Torah, or that the Talmud was developed by people who loved and cherished and revered the Torah? And that the Pharisees' interpretation of Torah was at odds with multiple sects, not just Jesus, and that they genuinely thought they were right? Or do you think they just wanted power and had no sincere faith in Yahweh?
They were interested in retaining their own power and influence, Jesus rejected what he called the traditions of men, which was basically the Babylonian Talmud and the oral traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held in higher regard than Torah. I mean there's more...you want all or is just a couple clif notes sufficient?
Weren’t the Pharisees, and other sects, expecting the messiah to be a kingly figure like David who would lead a military revolution to defeat the enemy (Romans?) and unite Israel? And it will be obvious to everyone who the messiah is when he appears?
The NT tells a story of a completely different messiah. Jesus is not depicted as a military statesman leading a revolution to defeat a geopolitical enemy and unite a nation. He’s depicted as an itinerant, peasant preacher, who is not apparent as messiah, even to his own followers.
I can agree that most Jews reject Jesus as messiah because they reject the NT.
The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.
They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.
Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.
The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.
But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:
1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?
2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?
I will offer this opinion to try to summarize what Raf means, maybe its correct:
The Jews rejected Jesus because they believed he was a liar and a con artist.
Former TWI members reject PFAL because they believe VPW was a liar and a con artist.
Jesus was a Jew. His flowers were Jews. The early Jesus movement was comprised mostly of Jews.
Which Jews believed Jesus to be a liar and a con artist? The Jews depicted and characterized by the authors of the NT Gospels? Did these authors, writing in Greek two generations after Jesus' death, have an agenda? Were they, intentionally or not, advancing a narrative about Jews and their rebellion in the context of the War in 70CE?
Except VP didn’t claim the PFAL class was God breathed. Mike did.
This is vastly different than the Judeans rejecting the Messiah. Also they didn’t reject scripture they rejected the canon of scripture that originated from the Messiah.
Not close enough for a cigar.
Unless we are playing horse shoes and hand grenades.
I mean real honestly here I feel like I am being corralled or gaslighted into agreeing that it is the same logic rejecting the resident trolls position that PFAL is somehow more supernatural than even the teacher of it claims and the Jews rejecting Christ.
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OldSkool
I can certainly see and appreciate the parallells. The way you sound to me...the way Mike sounds to me...you guys both sound like me. Ive stumbled at wierwille's doctrines and was blinded from scriptu
waysider
The Bible declares itself to be God breathed. Therefore, it must be because the Bible says so and it's God Breathed... That's about as circular as you can get. There is no outside evidence to suggest
sirguessalot
Indeed. Seems Adam-ness alone was incapable of generating much more than feral children. Re: the original topic of reasonable bases for rejecting written things as God-breathed… Most of us m
Raf
And ultimately they reject the New Testament as God-breathed on the same grounds that you reject PFAL. They reject the writers and the profitability of their message. It's uncanny.
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chockfull
What is uncanny is your ability to see into all the people I’ve interacted with and tell me their thoughts.
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Raf
Right. They accept the New Testament but remain hidden behind locked doors for fear of the Judeans.
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chockfull
Nice PFAL concept reference.
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Raf
The reasons for Jewish rejection of the inspiration of New Testament scriptures are not mysteries that can only be revealed through individual interrogation. The idea that it takes mindreading skills to determine their thoughts on this question is ludicrous. We KNOW why Jews reject the New Testament.
They reject the authors' reliability, they reject the interpretation of the Old Testament and they see the New Testament as the inspiration behind centuries of anti-Semitism. This is not mindreading, it's history.
Just like you reject PFAL because of its author's unreliability, its interpretation of the scriptures you hold sacred, and its inspiration of decades of abuse.
The parallels are not invented for the sake of a thread.
But please, go back to your Jewish sources and tell me two things:
1. What reasons do they give for their rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament?
2. Do you not reject PFAL as God-breathed for precisely the exact same reasons?
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chockfull
1. They don’t accept the Messiah. Or most don’t. There are Messianic Jews who do. And those don’t reject inspiration of NT.
2. No
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Raf
That answer is a dodge.
They don't accept the Messiah BECAUSE they don't accept the inspiration of the NT, not the other way around.
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Rocky
With respect, your recent posts on this thread suggest you have NOT dropped your stake in this subject years ago.
The purpose of discussion is not to win. Chockful isn't likely to change your position, unless something like happened to Paul on the road to Damascus happens to you. Likewise, you're not going to change his position unless...
IOW, why do your comments sound like you haven't let go of the subject?
I don't GAF what anyone's position is on this topic. I just feel compelled to make the point about discussion not being a contact sport.
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OldSkool
Im not being persnickty here, but just connecting a few historical dots. Of all the groups in Judea at the time (Sadducess, Herodians, Scribes, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, Zealots, etc) the group that won the support of the people and therefore survived the day was the Pharisees. The Pharisees is the main group that had Jesus Christ crucified. They rejected Jesus as the Messiach. It was from the Pharisees that modern day Judaism took it's roots. That rejection stayed put and if anything gained steam as Christianity gained steam. So it wasnt so much a rejection of the inspiration of the New Testament but a blanket rejection of anything to do with Jesus Christ, and thus rejection of the New Testament surely followed as well as inspiration of anything else Christ like. Thats a summation from memory so I may be a tad bit off on a point or two so feel to correct as needed. I can provide some references later if you guys wanna read along. Peace!
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Raf
Rocky,
I'll engage in a conversation as long as there's a conversation in which to engage.
"I dropped my stake in this argument a decade ago" is about the argument over whether the Bible is God-breathed and whether PFAL is God-breathed and what God-breathed even means.
That's NOT what this discussion and dialog have been about. What we're discussing here is the parallel between the arguments and methods used to defend or reject PFAL as compared to those used to reject and defend the Bible. I contend those methods are precisely the same. That's THIS discussion, and I never claimed to be uninterested in the conversation.
But you are correct: At some point the points are made and it's time to move on.
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Raf
Ok, let's go there.
WHY did the Pharisees reject Jesus as Messiah?
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OldSkool
They were interested in retaining their own power and influence, Jesus rejected what he called the traditions of men, which was basically the Babylonian Talmud and the oral traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held in higher regard than Torah. I mean there's more...you want all or is just a couple clif notes sufficient?
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Raf
Ok, so we have the Torah (the Bible) and the Babylonian Talmud/traditions of men (PFAL) and the Pharisees rejected Jesus because he rejected the Babylonian Talmud (PFAL) and thereby posed a threat to their power and influence. The Pharisees in this comparison are Mike, minus the Power and Influence, as he has none.
I think Power and Influence is where my analogy falls apart, because we in this conversation do not really have any, so we're more of the laity than "Pharisees" or The Vatican.
But I wouldn't presume that anyone in this group rejects PFAL as God-breathed merely because some higher-up is pressuring us to maintain power.
I would contend, nonetheless, that 2,000 someodd years later, no Jews are worried about maintaining Pharasaic power and influence. If you ask them, they reject Jesus on scriptural grounds. They don't reject the New Testament because they reject Jesus. It's the other way around.
But that's my contention and I have no qualms if you decline to embrace it.
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OldSkool
What I stated is historical. That's about it.
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Raf
It was historical. Would you agree that it was an oversimplified history that did not fully account for Pharisaic devotion to the Torah, or that the Talmud was developed by people who loved and cherished and revered the Torah? And that the Pharisees' interpretation of Torah was at odds with multiple sects, not just Jesus, and that they genuinely thought they were right? Or do you think they just wanted power and had no sincere faith in Yahweh?
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OldSkool
I stated that initially. Look...I'm not here to spar with you. I get my full with that with Mike and less and less at that.
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Raf
Ok, as long as we're agreed on that
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OldSkool
We already were. Goof goof.
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Nathan_Jr
Weren’t the Pharisees, and other sects, expecting the messiah to be a kingly figure like David who would lead a military revolution to defeat the enemy (Romans?) and unite Israel? And it will be obvious to everyone who the messiah is when he appears?
The NT tells a story of a completely different messiah. Jesus is not depicted as a military statesman leading a revolution to defeat a geopolitical enemy and unite a nation. He’s depicted as an itinerant, peasant preacher, who is not apparent as messiah, even to his own followers.
I can agree that most Jews reject Jesus as messiah because they reject the NT.
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oldiesman
I will offer this opinion to try to summarize what Raf means, maybe its correct:
The Jews rejected Jesus because they believed he was a liar and a con artist.
Former TWI members reject PFAL because they believe VPW was a liar and a con artist.
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Raf
Close enough
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Nathan_Jr
Jesus was a Jew. His flowers were Jews. The early Jesus movement was comprised mostly of Jews.
Which Jews believed Jesus to be a liar and a con artist? The Jews depicted and characterized by the authors of the NT Gospels? Did these authors, writing in Greek two generations after Jesus' death, have an agenda? Were they, intentionally or not, advancing a narrative about Jews and their rebellion in the context of the War in 70CE?
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chockfull
Except VP didn’t claim the PFAL class was God breathed. Mike did.
This is vastly different than the Judeans rejecting the Messiah. Also they didn’t reject scripture they rejected the canon of scripture that originated from the Messiah.
Not close enough for a cigar.
Unless we are playing horse shoes and hand grenades.
I mean real honestly here I feel like I am being corralled or gaslighted into agreeing that it is the same logic rejecting the resident trolls position that PFAL is somehow more supernatural than even the teacher of it claims and the Jews rejecting Christ.
Ludicrous!
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Raf
Honestly, i just didn't want to argue anymore
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