On God-Breathed Scriptures

[Raf]

And that's fine. But can you see how similar that sounds to "I've heard all those allegations about Wierwille before. But I'm cliser to God thanks to his ministry than I've ever been."

You probably sound to Mike the way I sound to you.

[Nathan_Jr]

9 hours ago, waysider said:

I've heard he spent quite a bit of time in Mexico.

I heard he left Chicago and is bound for New Orleans.

[Nathan_Jr]

6 minutes ago, Raf said:

And that's fine. But can you see how similar that sounds to "I've heard all those allegations about Wierwille before. But I'm cliser to God thanks to his ministry than I've ever been."

You probably sound to Mike the way I sound to you.

To whom are you responding?

[OldSkool]

19 minutes ago, Raf said:

And that's fine. But can you see how similar that sounds to "I've heard all those allegations about Wierwille before. But I'm cliser to God thanks to his ministry than I've ever been."

You probably sound to Mike the way I sound to you.

I can certainly see and appreciate the parallells. The way you sound to me...the way Mike sounds to me...you guys both sound like me. Ive stumbled at wierwille's doctrines and was blinded from scripture by them. Ive been to the point that I didn't believe it anymore. I moved to Cincinnati, made an entire new set of friends and never told anyone I was involved in the way international, was way corps, I tried to hide it all and ditch it all. Ive cast all things aside having to do with scripture, cults, etc. Then I tried to drink myself to death and tried commiting suicide a dozen other ways during that time. When I was done destroying myself I turned to Christ. That I am sitting here typing to you is nothing short of a miracle. Do I expect you to change your position based on my experiences? No. Do I expect anyone to change their positions? No. Im simply sharing my life and what Im learning and if that's helpful to anyone then so be it, if not, so be it. Yes, I let mike push my buttons, what can I say Im a work in progress. But behind my profile is a guy who has been reassembled by the power of God to the extent that my uncle who has been in AA for 35 years has no frame of reference for what has occured with me and he has sponsored countless people over the years. I guess it's a bit different for me at this stage in my life after losing everything, literally, except my life. And then coming back from the brink better than I was ever in my life. Raf, my goal is not to change you or what you believe. Ive stated before that Im alright with people being where they are with things...no judgement here. Im the last to judge because I have been an absolutely horrible person, except I have ceased from all of that and am enjoying peace for the first time ever. Obviously, I want to share with others my relationship with God. But im over forcing it, or judging anyone down...all that mess. Id rather love and respect people and do whatever I can to better them and myself in the process. Myabe that means opening a door for someone at the corner store. Maybe that means carrying someone's groceries to the car. Perhaps it means giving money to homeless people...or trying to help other alcoholics. Im happy, finally happy.

 

[Raf]

That was beautiful

[OldSkool]

2 minutes ago, Raf said:

That was beautiful

Thanks, today of all days, I need the kind words. Peace!

[Nathan_Jr]

14 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I can certainly see and appreciate the parallells. The way you sound to me...the way Mike sounds to me...you guys both sound like me. Ive stumbled at wierwille's doctrines and was blinded from scripture by them. Ive been to the point that I didn't believe it anymore. I moved to Cincinnati, made an entire new set of friends and never told anyone I was involved in the way international, was way corps, I tried to hide it all and ditch it all. Ive cast all things aside having to do with scripture, cults, etc. Then I tried to drink myself to death and tried commiting suicide a dozen other ways during that time. When I was done destroying myself I turned to Christ. That I am sitting here typing to you is nothing short of a miracle. Do I expect you to change your position based on my experiences? No. Do I expect anyone to change their positions? No. Im simply sharing my life and what Im learning and if that's helpful to anyone then so be it, if not, so be it. Yes, I let mike push my buttons, what can I say Im a work in progress. But behind my profile is a guy who has been reassembled by the power of God to the extent that my uncle who has been in AA for 35 years has no frame of reference for what has occured with me and he has sponsored countless people over the years. I guess it's a bit different for me at this stage in my life after losing everything, literally, except my life. And then coming back from the brink better than I was ever in my life. Raf, my goal is not to change you or what you believe. Ive stated before that Im alright with people being where they are with things...no judgement here. Im the last to judge because I have been an absolutely horrible person, except I have ceased from all of that and am enjoying peace for the first time ever. Obviously, I want to share with others my relationship with God. But im over forcing it, or judging anyone down...all that mess. Id rather love and respect people and do whatever I can to better them and myself in the process. Myabe that means opening a door for someone at the corner store. Maybe that means carrying someone's groceries to the car. Perhaps it means giving money to homeless people...or trying to help other alcoholics. Im happy, finally happy.

 

Word!

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

I can certainly see and appreciate the parallells. The way you sound to me...the way Mike sounds to me...you guys both sound like me. Ive stumbled at wierwille's doctrines and was blinded from scripture by them. Ive been to the point that I didn't believe it anymore. I moved to Cincinnati, made an entire new set of friends and never told anyone I was involved in the way international, was way corps, I tried to hide it all and ditch it all. Ive cast all things aside having to do with scripture, cults, etc. Then I tried to drink myself to death and tried commiting suicide a dozen other ways during that time. When I was done destroying myself I turned to Christ. That I am sitting here typing to you is nothing short of a miracle. Do I expect you to change your position based on my experiences? No. Do I expect anyone to change their positions? No. Im simply sharing my life and what Im learning and if that's helpful to anyone then so be it, if not, so be it. Yes, I let mike push my buttons, what can I say Im a work in progress. But behind my profile is a guy who has been reassembled by the power of God to the extent that my uncle who has been in AA for 35 years has no frame of reference for what has occured with me and he has sponsored countless people over the years. I guess it's a bit different for me at this stage in my life after losing everything, literally, except my life. And then coming back from the brink better than I was ever in my life. Raf, my goal is not to change you or what you believe. Ive stated before that Im alright with people being where they are with things...no judgement here. Im the last to judge because I have been an absolutely horrible person, except I have ceased from all of that and am enjoying peace for the first time ever. Obviously, I want to share with others my relationship with God. But im over forcing it, or judging anyone down...all that mess. Id rather love and respect people and do whatever I can to better them and myself in the process. Myabe that means opening a door for someone at the corner store. Maybe that means carrying someone's groceries to the car. Perhaps it means giving money to homeless people...or trying to help other alcoholics. Im happy, finally happy.

 

What I see in this story is a real and true rebirth. It seems to me no "teaching," no doxy, no ritual, no book, no organization, no mantra can achieve this kind of liberation for anyone. 

[OldSkool]

44 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What I see in this story is a real and true rebirth. It seems to me no "teaching," no doxy, no ritual, no book, no organization, no mantra can achieve this kind of liberation for anyone. 

Yes sir, accurate.

[Raf]

OS, I respect your perspective and thank you for sharing it. 

I think of God in this context as Dumbo's feather. It gives him the power to fly. Without it... Without it he can still fly, but he doesn't know it. He thought the power was in the feather. It was Dumbo all along.

You believe Christ turned you around and changed you. I can't talk you out of that, and as long as you're flying, I don't want to. But I will be the guy over here in our greasy corner of the internet cheering you for turning your life around.

[Rocky]

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Raf said:

OS, I respect your perspective and thank you for sharing it. 

I think of God in this context as Dumbo's feather. It gives him the power to fly. Without it... Without it he can still fly, but he doesn't know it. He thought the power was in the feather. It was Dumbo all along.

You believe Christ turned you around and changed you. I can't talk you out of that, and as long as you're flying, I don't want to. But I will be the guy over here in our greasy corner of the internet cheering you for turning your life around.

Thanks! I should reword it a little to Christ has given me strength to accomplish. Without my effort, will power, and continued decision each day not to drink Im toast.

[chockfull]

Nice personal testimony on this thread - awesome!

On the God breathed scripture topic and canon here’s a monkey wrench.

Did God breathe during Jesus teenage years?

https://ocoy.org/original-christianity/the-christ-of-india/

Did Jesus travel to the east?

I am bringing this up due to intense conversations with a close friend of mine about Christianity and Buddhism.  He was raised Buddhist in China.  He sees elements of eastern teaching in Jesus manner, words, prayers and teachings.

What do you think?

[waysider]

42 minutes ago, chockfull said:

He sees elements of eastern teaching in Jesus manner, words, prayers and teachings.

What do you think?

By now, you may have heard Joseph Campbell speak on religious commonalities. If you haven't, here is a link.

 

HERE

[OldSkool]

47 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Nice personal testimony on this thread - awesome!

On the God breathed scripture topic and canon here’s a monkey wrench.

Did God breathe during Jesus teenage years?

https://ocoy.org/original-christianity/the-christ-of-india/

Did Jesus travel to the east?

I am bringing this up due to intense conversations with a close friend of mine about Christianity and Buddhism.  He was raised Buddhist in China.  He sees elements of eastern teaching in Jesus manner, words, prayers and teachings.

What do you think?

I'll post a chart or two later. Some new Bible versions incorporate a lot of non-Christian wordings. 

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, waysider said:

By now, you may have heard Joseph Campbell speak on religious commonalities. If you haven't, here is a link.

 

HERE

Thanks for the link Waysider !   The Power of Myth is a great read too. This video clip reminded me of some other things that Campbell said relating myth to psychological stuff Freud talked about. Some of Freud's stuff I find interesting too - like the ego, superego and id...ok I'll shut up - that's enough off-topic I care to get into here.

 

[OldSkool]

8 hours ago, waysider said:

By now, you may have heard Joseph Campbell speak on religious commonalities. If you haven't, here is a link.

 

HERE

 

8 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I'll post a chart or two later. Some new Bible versions incorporate a lot of non-Christian wordings. 

Here's a couple off-topic rabbit holes to explore:

Darby changed scripture: (Scofield incorporated Darby's changes into the Scofield Study Bible, which in turn became the default Bible for many seminaries) Be forewarned: Perloff covers political zionism in this article and there's some rather disturbing pics and what not towards the bottom of the page. 

https://jamesperloff.com/tag/john-nelson-darby/

https://www.libertytothecaptives.net/darby_doctrinal_changes.html

https://www.libertytothecaptives.net/occult and masonic modern bible versions_architect.html

https://libertytothecaptives.net/darbychrist_newage.html

As did Westcott and Hort:

https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by OldSkool

[cman]

7 hours ago, chockfull said:

Did God breathe during Jesus teenage years?

https://ocoy.org/original-christianity/the-christ-of-india/

Did Jesus travel to the east?

I am bringing this up due to intense conversations with a close friend of mine about Christianity and Buddhism.  He was raised Buddhist in China.  He sees elements of eastern teaching in Jesus manner, words, prayers and teachings.

What do you think?

I think he definitely learned Buddhism and meditation and other stuff. What Jesus did we can do as well. Why would he journey to the desert for a long period of time? To meet or further God and the Holy Spirit, the fire of God in his life. God breathing is God talking, and he's always talking, getting to listen is not so easy sometimes with everything running thru our minds.

[OldSkool]

13 minutes ago, cman said:

I think he definitely learned Buddhism and meditation and other stuff. What Jesus did we can do as well. Why would he journey to the desert for a long period of time? To meet or further God and the Holy Spirit, the fire of God in his life. God breathing is God talking, and he's always talking, getting to listen is not so easy sometimes with everything running thru our minds.

Except he would've violated Mosaic law.

[cman]

Yes, I'm pretty sure he violated every Mosaic law.

[cman]

or broke every law, fulfilling it...

[Raf]

Broke... every... law...

 

wut?

[Rocky]

"The greater the knowledge, the greater the doubt." ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe

 

[Nathan_Jr]

The more I know, the more I know I don’t know. 

[Bolshevik]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:38 PM, Raf said:

With all due respect, Nathan, how many times and in how many ways do I have to explain how we are using God-breathed in this conversation?

And roping in the Magna Carta and the Little Engine that Could: you think that's an attempt at exploring the nuances of the topic? 

It's not cryptic. It's attention-seeking bulls hit designed to shut down the conversation, not contribute to it. 

Everyone who has participated in this thread has been able to see exactly the point that was being made. You asked multiple questions that demonstrated a firm grasp of the issues being raised. 

Bolshevik wants you to think "theopneustos" is a word VPW made up and there's something nefarious about applying it to the Bible as countless denominations do. 

If you'd like mebto expand on the opening post, again, I will.

If you believe PFAL is not theopneustos, ask yourself why you've reached that conclusion. [Imperfections, errors and contradictions were ONE MANNER of exploring that issue, but if your definition of theopneustos does not connote or denote "perfection," then identifying imperfections does nothing.

Fine. What DOES theopneustos mean TO YOU? Why does PFAL not qualify?

I submit that whatever criteria you use to disqualify PFAL as theopneustos, the same criteria will end up disqualifying the Bible as theopneustos. 

Errors? Check. Contradictions? Check. Self-serving accounts of personal encounters with God? Check. [Read Jonah again one of these days. It's remarkable in its utter shamelessness. Makes VPW's snow on the gas pumps look like it was better documented than the Kennedy assassination]. 

I spent years tearing Mike's thesis on PFAL to shreds only to come to realize his idolatrous adoration of PFAL was no different from my "healthy respect" for the Bible. The only difference was time.

Did that answer your question?

 

 

 

Okay, you claim theopneustos is a term some demonations use.

Which implies there are demoniations that don't.

So there's a long history here, and you seem to be only allowing one view, as if to strawman.

You've also, as others here do, take Mike too seriously.

I was neither in the cult, nor outside the cult . . . does that make sense to you?  I'm very aware that PFAL is a defence of rape culture, and that I am a product of that thinking by others.

To put the Bible in the same discussion as PFAL, as if one produced or influenced the other, is nonsense.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Bolshevik
keyboards and fingers and there's a term for that reality