Sooooo are you saying that the definition of God-breathed from pfal should be applied to the bible itself? Is that the thesis?
What is the definition of god-breathed?
I apologize for my initial response to this post, but I DID just comment about the number of times I addressed it.
Quickest summary: It means what YOU think it means. However you answer that question, if you include the Bible as theopneustos but exclude PFAL, why? What criteria are you using? I submit that someone else can use the same criteria to exclude the Bible as theopneustos, regardless of how YOU define that term.
PFAL's definition was easiest to refute, as both PFAL and the Bible have actual errors and contradictions that disqualify them as theopneustos by PFAL's definition..
But I contend that it doesn't matter how you define theopneustos. Once you define it, explicitly or implicitly, you face the problem of deciding what to include and what to exclude, using some explicit or implicit criteria, which I contend can be used just as easily to disqualify the Bible as it can to exclude PFAL.
VPW and pfal's lack of understanding scripture contributed to the demise of the value in scripture, whether it's from the bible or other sources.
So, perfect? Depends on how perfect is defined.
Without contradiction? Two or more contradicting statements can be true at the same time. This is one of the biggest failures in presenting scripture in twi.
Well.... what else shall be left out or included in evaluating writings as scripture. I've seen scripture in lots of places. It's a life long quest to understand and see. Why didn't Jesus just stay home and study scripture full time? He didn't, he traveled to meet the great seers of his time, in India, and other far east places including Russia.
Well.... what else shall be left out or included in evaluating writings as scripture. I've seen scripture in lots of places. It's a life long quest to understand and see. Why didn't Jesus just stay home and study scripture full time? He didn't, he traveled to meet the great seers of his time, in India, and other far east places including Russia.
Wierwille being full of $h!t disqualifies the Bible as God breathed?
The author was full of it... Yeah! Mark may as well have written about Narnia as Palestine, considering how well he knew the terrrain. Matthew and Luke flat out plagiarize his work and make up historical events we KNOW did not happen (the slaughter of the innocents, ripped off from Exodus) and the census that counted people based on where their ancestors lived rather than where they lived now. No census has ever done that. Ever. Along comes John and turns Jesus from the guy who said "shhh... don't out me until it's time" to the guy who said I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE AND ONE WITH THE FATHER! John has Jesus raise a man from the dead after four days, a man named Lazarus. Amazing that three other people give us an account of Jesus' ministry decades earlier and not one considers this anecdote worth mentioning. Almost like it was made up.
Speaking of which, Paul makes up stories about learning the gospel from God and not men, as though getting information from the people who actually walked with Jesus might be a disqualifying factor rather than one that lends him credibility. Of course Paul makes up his story of the last supper and the post resurrection appearances before the gospel writers make up the story of Judas' betrayal, which better explains why he has Jesus seen of "The Twelve."
Honestly, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul, we would smell something emanating from them, and it would not be fish.
The author was full of it... Yeah! Mark may as well have written about Narnia as Palestine, considering how well he knew the terrrain. Matthew and Luke flat out plagiarize his work and make up historical events we KNOW did not happen (the slaughter of the innocents, ripped off from Exodus) and the census that counted people based on where their ancestors lived rather than where they lived now. No census has ever done that. Ever. Along comes John and turns Jesus from the guy who said "shhh... don't out me until it's time" to the guy who said I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE AND ONE WITH THE FATHER! John has Jesus raise a man from the dead after four days, a man named Lazarus. Amazing that three other people give us an account of Jesus' ministry decades earlier and not one considers this anecdote worth mentioning. Almost like it was made up.
Speaking of which, Paul makes up stories about learning the gospel from God and not men, as though getting information from the people who actually walked with Jesus might be a disqualifying factor rather than one that lends him credibility. Of course Paul makes up his story of the last supper and the post resurrection appearances before the gospel writers make up the story of Judas' betrayal, which better explains why he has Jesus seen of "The Twelve."
Honestly, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul, we would smell something emanating from them, and it would not be fish.
Or, conversely, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul we very may have been their disciples.
Im not sure there is much you've posted that I havent heard before regarding scripture. I am interested in references if you have some, I try and follow all angles. My faith remains steadfast in God and his ability to have his will recorded in written form and I believe that is in the Bible. Ive never been closer to God/Christ than I am today. Peace!
Or, conversely, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul we very may have been their disciples.
Im not sure there is much you've posted that I havent heard before regarding scripture. I am interested in references if you have some, I try and follow all angles. My faith remains steadfast in God and his ability to have his will recorded in written form and I believe that is in the Bible. Ive never been closer to God/Christ than I am today. Peace!
I’ve come to understand that something doesn’t have to be factually correct for it to be true. (A paradox?)
Reading scripture with this understanding has been liberating for me. And profitable.Â
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OldSkool
I can certainly see and appreciate the parallells. The way you sound to me...the way Mike sounds to me...you guys both sound like me. Ive stumbled at wierwille's doctrines and was blinded from scriptu
waysider
The Bible declares itself to be God breathed. Therefore, it must be because the Bible says so and it's God Breathed... That's about as circular as you can get. There is no outside evidence to suggest
sirguessalot
Indeed. Seems Adam-ness alone was incapable of generating much more than feral children. Re: the original topic of reasonable bases for rejecting written things as God-breathed… Most of us m
OldSkool
What's the difference in this thread getting derailed and Mike derailing 30 others?
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waysider
29?
(I'm not good at math.)
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OldSkool
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Raf
There is a correct answer.
We may not like it.
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Raf
I apologize for my initial response to this post, but I DID just comment about the number of times I addressed it.
Quickest summary: It means what YOU think it means. However you answer that question, if you include the Bible as theopneustos but exclude PFAL, why? What criteria are you using? I submit that someone else can use the same criteria to exclude the Bible as theopneustos, regardless of how YOU define that term.
PFAL's definition was easiest to refute, as both PFAL and the Bible have actual errors and contradictions that disqualify them as theopneustos by PFAL's definition..
But I contend that it doesn't matter how you define theopneustos. Once you define it, explicitly or implicitly, you face the problem of deciding what to include and what to exclude, using some explicit or implicit criteria, which I contend can be used just as easily to disqualify the Bible as it can to exclude PFAL.
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cman
VPW and pfal's lack of understanding scripture contributed to the demise of the value in scripture, whether it's from the bible or other sources.
So, perfect? Depends on how perfect is defined.
Without contradiction? Two or more contradicting statements can be true at the same time. This is one of the biggest failures in presenting scripture in twi.
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cman
Fits like a hand in a glove? I am not a glove.
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Raf
Once again, I am not advocating "perfect" as a definition.
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cman
Well.... what else shall be left out or included in evaluating writings as scripture. I've seen scripture in lots of places. It's a life long quest to understand and see. Why didn't Jesus just stay home and study scripture full time? He didn't, he traveled to meet the great seers of his time, in India, and other far east places including Russia.
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Raf
oh kaaaaaayyyy
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Nathan_Jr
Where is the evidence for this claim?
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Raf
You guys prefer Orviĺle Redenbacher, Jiffy Pop or Pop Secret?
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OldSkool
Orville's cool...
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cman
Unknown years of Jesus - Wikipedia to start with.....
but you have to trust the spirit to show anything, because the spirit is the witness
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Raf
Wikipedia takes the place of the absent evidence.
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Nathan_Jr
Oh.
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cman
jesus in india proof
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oldiesman
It's been debunked by other sources, but again, good "stuff" for another thread.
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waysider
I've heard he spent quite a bit of time in Mexico.
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Raf
Got a lot of kids named after him. Coincidence?
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Raf
The author was full of it... Yeah! Mark may as well have written about Narnia as Palestine, considering how well he knew the terrrain. Matthew and Luke flat out plagiarize his work and make up historical events we KNOW did not happen (the slaughter of the innocents, ripped off from Exodus) and the census that counted people based on where their ancestors lived rather than where they lived now. No census has ever done that. Ever. Along comes John and turns Jesus from the guy who said "shhh... don't out me until it's time" to the guy who said I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE AND ONE WITH THE FATHER! John has Jesus raise a man from the dead after four days, a man named Lazarus. Amazing that three other people give us an account of Jesus' ministry decades earlier and not one considers this anecdote worth mentioning. Almost like it was made up.
Speaking of which, Paul makes up stories about learning the gospel from God and not men, as though getting information from the people who actually walked with Jesus might be a disqualifying factor rather than one that lends him credibility. Of course Paul makes up his story of the last supper and the post resurrection appearances before the gospel writers make up the story of Judas' betrayal, which better explains why he has Jesus seen of "The Twelve."
Honestly, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul, we would smell something emanating from them, and it would not be fish.
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OldSkool
Or, conversely, if we lived at the same time as the gospel writers and Paul we very may have been their disciples.
Im not sure there is much you've posted that I havent heard before regarding scripture. I am interested in references if you have some, I try and follow all angles. My faith remains steadfast in God and his ability to have his will recorded in written form and I believe that is in the Bible. Ive never been closer to God/Christ than I am today. Peace!
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Nathan_Jr
I’ve come to understand that something doesn’t have to be factually correct for it to be true. (A paradox?)
Reading scripture with this understanding has been liberating for me. And profitable.Â
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OldSkool
Cool perspective, thanks for sharing!
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