In my opinion this is probably one of the biggest topics that folks still in TWI – and those thinking about leaving should reevaluate.
“So, what is the will of God?According to the article above, it's you” – I would put it differently – both the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 and the Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 address the cognitive process of selecting a course of action by being sensitize to biblical ethical issues– if relevant- and weighing the considerations of anticipated consequences for the various alternative actions (if there is more than one option available).
The Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 offers a biblical alternative to the traditional view of some Christian groups…and in the case of The Way International, an erroneous concept is taken to the extreme. The flawed assumption is that Christians desire to be in the center of God’s will and have only the narrow guideline of the Bible and direct revelation from God to work with…The Decision Making book lays out two categories of the will of God:
1.God’s sovereign will– known only to Him – this refers to God as supreme ruler and how He orchestrates almost innumerable elements (inanimate and living beings) to produce a desired effect, often surreptitiously in accordance with His own will. Think Romans 8: 26 - 28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Jesus taught us to submit to God's sovereign will - This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6 - most of the time we may never know what God's sovereign will is - but this attitude in prayer is the humility and trust we should have in God being sovereign.
1.God’s moral will– this God has made known in numerous ways – this is represented by the moral directives in the Bible such as:
The Two Great Commandments – love God and neighbor Matthew 22
The Golden Rule mentioned in Jesus’ sermon on the mount Matthew 7:12
The Moral Requirements of the law written on our hearts - our conscience bearing witness to thatRomans 2
The type of guidance we should expect from God is moral in nature - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil oneMatthew 6I think we’ve all had instances where we stew and fret over a situation on what to do – and we pray for some kind of guidance – so we shouldn’t be surprised that God answers our prayer by bringing to the forefront of our attention some detail of the situation that now sticks out like a sore thumb of what is the wrong thing to do.
Isn't it fascinating in Matthew 6 that it covers both God's sovereign will, and His moral will.
~ ~ ~ ~
When I was involved in TWI, I adopted the center-of-God’s-will concept for my decision making process – because that’s the way TWI taught us to choose. My self-confidence was slowly whittled away so that I felt more comfortable in taking the route any good little way-believer would choose. I just got off the WOW field and had thought about finishing college for a degree in fine arts. But where should I go? Back to New York? Being in my early 20s and going WOW must have kindled some wanderlust.
I think my WOW year groomed me for checking with leadership before making any big decisions. So my wife and I talked about what state we’d like to live in – contacted the limb coordinator there and asked for a list of cities that had colleges and where he would like to see 2 WOW vets move “the Word”. So, we picked one from the list. It’s funny though, we lived there 4 years and I never did find the time nor had the desire to finish college. Moving “The Word” and running PFAL classes became more important to me. This only dealt with non-moral issues(like where to live, whether to finish college) – but I mention it here to show catering to TWI’s agenda tends to eclipse one’s personal preferences, priorities, and goals.
Generally innon-moral issues TWI tended to push a decision making process that was predicated on knowing-God’s-sovereign-will…and since God’s sovereign willis known only to Him – this was all presumptive that you should do or not do something just because it’s assumed to be the will of God for your life. If the choice is between running a Ponzi scheme or going to work for a legitimate financial institution – the choice should be obvious – a Ponzi scheme is off the table. Now if the choices are 3 different legitimate financial institutions – one nearby but starting salary is just okay, one in another state that offers a much higher salary with lots of executive perks and will pay to move you and your family, and the third involves a 3-hour commute with salary just a little better than the nearby office but there’s a chance you’ll become a partner within 2 years since a close friend of yours started the company. Which do you choose? It’s totally up to you. What are your preferences, priorities, and goals. There is no wrong choice as far as God’s sovereign willor God’s moral will are concerned.
When it came to morals wierwille tooksituational ethicsto some next level $hit. Situational ethics takes into account only the particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically, rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards.
wierwille’s perspective was the vantage point of a sociopath.
There was no right or wrong–there was only whatever wierwille wanted to do.
He was best known for his self-referential code of conduct by such statements as:
“As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.”
“Anything done in the love of God is okay.”
Note in both statements there is the advantage of giving oneself a free pass to do even unconscionable acts.
All one has to do is convince themselves they love God and neighbor.
In the orange bookPower for Abundant Living, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338, notice how wierwille defines sanctification:
The word “ sanctified” means “to be set apart”…when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going.
In other words, one can live like the devil, and it doesn’t matter to God – you’re going to heaven anyway.
I believe that Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 is more in line with the sentiment of the Bible:
We hear a lot of talk about “sanctification,” but what does that really mean?
James MacDonald: Here’s a definition: Sanctification is the lifelong process in which Christ-followers are refined and increasingly conformed to the behavior pattern of Jesus Christ. It’s the work of God in the lives of forgiven sinners that takes them step-by-step away from selfish, sinful patterns of living and more and more into a life that’s wholly holy and set apart entirely for the glory of Jesus Christ.
God uses hardship and the circumstances of life to shape and show our character. To be sanctified is to live in complete, continuous submission to him.
~ ~ ~ ~
If I may reiterate a few things you brought up. God is sovereign as "the divine orchestra conductor". We are not expected to make perfect decisions - just morally good choices.
What is the sovereign will of God? Only God knows. What is the moral will of God? It’s not that hard to figure out.
I’ll close with more excerpts from the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017:
How should Christians make decisions?
James MacDonald: The Scriptures make some choices explicitly clear, and our decision on those matters should be no-brainers. For example, should you take something that doesn’t belong to you (also known as stealing)? What’s God’s will for you in this choice? The fact that God included “You shall not steal” (Exodus 20:15) in the ten cardinal rules we call the Ten Commandments should clue us in clearly to what God wants. Easy decision. Don’t steal!
But what do you do when the choices and alternatives are not as clear? What do you do when the choice is not a matter of a specific, biblical mandate that distinguishes right and wrong?
When handling equal choices, God wants you to make the decision that would please you. God is a good Father who loves you! Within the boundaries of God’s Word, we find structure, direction, protection, and freedom. We don’t have to live in terror of making a wrong choice and violating his purposes.
Edited by T-Bone The mistakes of the poster are the typos of the editor
In the orange bookPower for Abundant Living, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338, notice how wierwille defines sanctification:
The word “ sanctified” means “to be set apart”…when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going.
In other words, one can live like the devil, and it doesn’t matter to God – you’re going to heaven anyway.
I perceive a perhaps second meaning to Wierwille's "sanctification," more along the lines of isolation so he (and his successors) could have you and me delegate our personal sovereignty (decision making responsibility and authority) to him and his freakin' cult.
Who would have thought it could be Napoleon Hill, the Think and Grow Rich author, who could synthesize a scripture such as "you shall know them by their fruit" into such obvious insight to separate the "wheat from the chaff," so to speak, in Wierwille, Martindale, and the cult they built? Synchronistic events/occurrences, perhaps to find such insight without opening a bible?
In my opinion this is probably one of the biggest topics that folks still in TWI – and those thinking about leaving should reevaluate.
“So, what is the will of God?According to the article above, it's you” – I would put it differently – both the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 and the Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 address the cognitive process of selecting a course of action by being sensitize to biblical ethical issues– if relevant- and weighing the considerations of anticipated consequences for the various alternative actions (if there is more than one option available).
The Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 offers a biblical alternative to the traditional view of some Christian groups…and in the case of The Way International, an erroneous concept is taken to the extreme. The flawed assumption is that Christians desire to be in the center of God’s will and have only the narrow guideline of the Bible and direct revelation from God to work with…The Decision Making book lays out two categories of the will of God:
1.God’s sovereign will– known only to Him – this refers to God as supreme ruler and how He orchestrates almost innumerable elements (inanimate and living beings) to produce a desired effect, often surreptitiously in accordance with His own will. Think Romans 8: 26 - 28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Jesus taught us to submit to God's sovereign will - This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6 - most of the time we may never know what God's sovereign will is - but this attitude in prayer is the humility and trust we should have in God being sovereign.
1.God’s moral will– this God has made known in numerous ways – this is represented by the moral directives in the Bible such as:
The Two Great Commandments – love God and neighbor Matthew 22
The Golden Rule mentioned in Jesus’ sermon on the mount Matthew 7:12
The Moral Requirements of the law written on our hearts - our conscience bearing witness to thatRomans 2
The type of guidance we should expect from God is moral in nature - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil oneMatthew 6I think we’ve all had instances where we stew and fret over a situation on what to do – and we pray for some kind of guidance – so we shouldn’t be surprised that God answers our prayer by bringing to the forefront of our attention some detail of the situation that now sticks out like a sore thumb of what is the wrong thing to do.
Isn't it fascinating in Matthew 6 that it covers both God's sovereign will, and His moral will.
~ ~ ~ ~
When I was involved in TWI, I adopted the center-of-God’s-will concept for my decision making process – because that’s the way TWI taught us to choose. My self-confidence was slowly whittled away so that I felt more comfortable in taking the route any good little way-believer would choose. I just got off the WOW field and had thought about finishing college for a degree in fine arts. But where should I go? Back to New York? Being in my early 20s and going WOW must have kindled some wanderlust.
I think my WOW year groomed me for checking with leadership before making any big decisions. So my wife and I talked about what state we’d like to live in – contacted the limb coordinator there and asked for a list of cities that had colleges and where he would like to see 2 WOW vets move “the Word”. So, we picked one from the list. It’s funny though, we lived there 4 years and I never did find the time nor had the desire to finish college. Moving “The Word” and running PFAL classes became more important to me. This only dealt with non-moral issues(like where to live, whether to finish college) – but I mention it here to show catering to TWI’s agenda tends to eclipse one’s personal preferences, priorities, and goals.
Generally innon-moral issues TWI tended to push a decision making process that was predicated on knowing-God’s-sovereign-will…and since God’s sovereign willis known only to Him – this was all presumptive that you should do or not do something just because it’s assumed to be the will of God for your life. If the choice is between running a Ponzi scheme or going to work for a legitimate financial institution – the choice should be obvious – a Ponzi scheme is off the table. Now if the choices are 3 different legitimate financial institutions – one nearby but starting salary is just okay, one in another state that offers a much higher salary with lots of executive perks and will pay to move you and your family, and the third involves a 3-hour commute with salary just a little better than the nearby office but there’s a chance you’ll become a partner within 2 years since a close friend of yours started the company. Which do you choose? It’s totally up to you. What are your preferences, priorities, and goals. There is no wrong choice as far as God’s sovereign willor God’s moral will are concerned.
When it came to morals wierwille tooksituational ethicsto some next level $hit. Situational ethics takes into account only the particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically, rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards.
wierwille’s perspective was the vantage point of a sociopath.
There was no right or wrong–there was only whatever wierwille wanted to do.
He was best known for his self-referential code of conduct by such statements as:
“As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.”
“Anything done in the love of God is okay.”
Note in both statements there is the advantage of giving oneself a free pass to do even unconscionable acts.
All one has to do is convince themselves they love God and neighbor.
In the orange bookPower for Abundant Living, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338, notice how wierwille defines sanctification:
The word “ sanctified” means “to be set apart”…when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going.
In other words, one can live like the devil, and it doesn’t matter to God – you’re going to heaven anyway.
I believe that Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 is more in line with the sentiment of the Bible:
We hear a lot of talk about “sanctification,” but what does that really mean?
James MacDonald: Here’s a definition: Sanctification is the lifelong process in which Christ-followers are refined and increasingly conformed to the behavior pattern of Jesus Christ. It’s the work of God in the lives of forgiven sinners that takes them step-by-step away from selfish, sinful patterns of living and more and more into a life that’s wholly holy and set apart entirely for the glory of Jesus Christ.
God uses hardship and the circumstances of life to shape and show our character. To be sanctified is to live in complete, continuous submission to him.
~ ~ ~ ~
If I may reiterate a few things you brought up. God is sovereign as "the divine orchestra conductor". We are not expected to make perfect decisions - just morally good choices.
What is the sovereign will of God? Only God knows. What is the moral will of God? It’s not that hard to figure out.
I’ll close with more excerpts from the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017:
How should Christians make decisions?
James MacDonald: The Scriptures make some choices explicitly clear, and our decision on those matters should be no-brainers. For example, should you take something that doesn’t belong to you (also known as stealing)? What’s God’s will for you in this choice? The fact that God included “You shall not steal” (Exodus 20:15) in the ten cardinal rules we call the Ten Commandments should clue us in clearly to what God wants. Easy decision. Don’t steal!
But what do you do when the choices and alternatives are not as clear? What do you do when the choice is not a matter of a specific, biblical mandate that distinguishes right and wrong?
When handling equal choices, God wants you to make the decision that would please you. God is a good Father who loves you! Within the boundaries of God’s Word, we find structure, direction, protection, and freedom. We don’t have to live in terror of making a wrong choice and violating his purposes.
Nice, a lot to digest here. Yeah my statement was brief and the best I understood, it's incomplete.
Mathew 6 is a good example, it could be read by a Wayfer in light of The Law of Believing, and thus expect results.
Or . . . The point is seek ye first The Kingdom of God . . . there's one central point . . . one main goal . . . after which all other decisions flow. Focusing exclusively each day on what to eat isn't much of a life, is it? But you will still need to make decisions about what to eat, it's just not the central theme of the day.
I read that and I know VPW was being a criminal pervert. I also hear in that an idea that is prevalent today . . . young women are taught by each other to take on as many men as possible at a young age . . . does that benefit themselves, or someone else?
I read that and I know VPW was being a criminal pervert. I also hear in that an idea that is prevalent today . . . young women are taught by each other to take on as many men as possible at a young age . . . does that benefit themselves, or someone else?
. . . Did VPW plagiarize this idea?
I keep seeing this come up. “Body count” is what they call it, I think.
I read that and I know VPW was being a criminal pervert. I also hear in that an idea that is prevalent today . . . young women are taught by each other to take on as many men as possible at a young age . . . does that benefit themselves, or someone else?
. . . Did VPW plagiarize this idea?
I imagine wierwille was original in that he was driven by his own lusts.
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general. Now if you want to recast the topic to mean what is the connection of a cult-leader-sexual predator and a change in the sexual mores of young women involved in that cult, the answer should be obvious.
I imagine wierwille was original in that he was driven by his own lusts.
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general. Now if you want to recast the topic to mean what is the connection of a cult-leader-sexual predator and a change in the sexual mores of young women involved in that cult, the answer should be obvious.
Victor Paul Wierwille did not invent evil. He was just a vector for it. He could have easily borrowed from the thinking of the 1960s. Free love with no cost?
I don't see the difference between VPW's logic and what I have been referring to. They are one in the same.
I think sociopathic is one of terms used. Narcissistic is another.
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general.
I think the phrase "anything done with love of God is okay" . . . that's the basic reasoning . . . a person does as they please because it's all about love
and when you listen carefully the other party has to reduce themselves, because love is limited and comes from a dispenser, so they begin to associate abuse with love . . . and reality is distorted . . . good is evil and evil is good . . . pain is happiness and happiness is pain . . . and you end up with a number of people taking care of one central person
What helped me was to simply start reading scripture again without worrying about what vpw, or others, re-defining what is written in plain English. You are absolutely right because VPW is a lightning rod of sorts around here but he did not invent evil, we wasnt the first or last false prophet but a relatively insignificant one on the world's stage, which appearantly he longed to play upon. Personally, I like to read the 1611 KJV, but reading helps to understand what is written and you have to know what is written to distinguish the changes other's have added, or what they have taken away even.
Victor Paul Wierwille did not invent evil. He was just a vector for it. He could have easily borrowed from the thinking of the 1960s. Free love with no cost?
I don't see the difference between VPW's logic and what I have been referring to. They are one in the same.
I think sociopathic is one of terms used. Narcissistic is another.
Well, KJV does mention “inventors of evil things” or if you prefer NIV it’s “they invent ways of doing evil” :
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
And in light of Romans 1 - I’d have to disagree with saying wierwille was just a vector for evil.
Vector = an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another…To me that would relieve wierwille of any responsibility – whereas Romans 1 does NOT alleviate wierwille’s accountability.
Borrowed from the “60s-free-love-counterculture”? Sure however you want to look at it. But you know, inventors usually don’t whip up creations out of thin air – they usually get inspiration from something. The Wright Brothers studied birds.
It’s unclear to me what you don’t see a difference in.
Well, KJV does mention “inventors of evil things” or if you prefer NIV it’s “they invent ways of doing evil” :
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
And in light of Romans 1 - I’d have to disagree with saying wierwille was just a vector for evil.
Vector = an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another…To me that would relieve wierwille of any responsibility – whereas Romans 1 does NOT alleviate wierwille’s accountability.
Borrowed from the “60s-free-love-counterculture”? Sure however you want to look at it. But you know, inventors usually don’t whip up creations out of thin air – they usually get inspiration from something. The Wright Brothers studied birds.
It’s unclear to me what you don’t see a difference in.
Perhaps if you click on the previous hyperlinks in my sentence - then we convene , discuss and maybe come to an agreement on terms.
You seem to be compiling and/or confabulating sexual predator, counterculture, sociopathic and narcissistic.
Let me be clear,
Victor Paul Wierwille deserved to have his skin slowly peeled from his entire body.
Nothing VPW did hasn't not been done before, and will be repeated many times into the future.
On one hand we have Victor Paul Wierwille, descriptions of his sexual behavior are very limited. He was not known for creativity.
He lied to people and used language to equate one term with another to get people to act against their better judgement and self-interest.
Among these ideas was to confuse serving God and loving others with language that resulted in others allowing themselves to be used for sex and acquiring resources.
I think the phrase "anything done with love of God is okay" . . . that's the basic reasoning . . . a person does as they please because it's all about love
and when you listen carefully the other party has to reduce themselves, because love is limited and comes from a dispenser, so they begin to associate abuse with love . . . and reality is distorted . . . good is evil and evil is good . . . pain is happiness and happiness is pain . . . and you end up with a number of people taking care of one central person
"Anything done with love of God is okay" was just one of wierwille’s methods to redefine Christian love – and that was for the ‘benefit’ of his followers – in other words it was twisted reasoningthat his followers accepted. But wierwille was a sociopath – he didn’t need to rationalize anything to alleviate bad feelings. His own behavior didn’t bother him one bit!
Not sure what to say about your 2nd paragraph other than the nebulous cauldron of indoctrination that went on in my head while in-residence when wierwille would throw out conscience-recalibrating-and-confusing phrases like that. Depending on how whacked out or inappropriate the context would be – the best I can remember is that I’d feel uncomfortable and childish – and that I had a lot of spiritual maturing to do to think like he did.
“Fast forward to being in the Family Corps in my early thirties. Sitting in a pajama party – VPW the master of ceremonies showing off his famous doggie porn video, and calling a sixteen-year-old girl up front to show her a porn pen. The most disturbing aspect of this memory to me now is that no alarms were going off in my head at the time of this incident.”
With the great respect and extreme admiration I had for wierwille, the anesthetizing of my conscience had already begun by this time. Because NO red flags came up in my head at the time.
It’s really freaky to realize that now!
A fvcking sexual predator was hiding out in plain sight – but I didn’t see it…
...and some more afterthoughts in light of our present discussion.
I never was - nor never became a sexual predator.
I never committed adultery. I never cheated on my wife.
I never sexually molested any woman…
...but I’m honest enough to admit that my conscience, my sense of boundaries and decorum was definitely tampered with by wierwille’s influence...
and who knows how bad my character would have been corrupted had I stayed in TWI – especially in any kind of leadership capacity as way corps – the power structure corrupts…temptations and opportunities will abound.
Victor Paul Wierwille deserved to have his skin slowly peeled from his entire body.
Nothing VPW did hasn't not been done before, and will be repeated many times into the future.
On one hand we have Victor Paul Wierwille, descriptions of his sexual behavior are very limited. He was not known for creativity.
He lied to people and used language to equate one term with another to get people to act against their better judgement and self-interest.
Among these ideas was to confuse serving God and loving others with language that resulted in others allowing themselves to be used for sex and acquiring resources.
anything unclear or left out here?
You’re crystal clear!
Why do I sense we’re in disagreement over something?
Is it over me citing the term inventors of evil?
Hell, I dunno – if you don’t like inventor – how about architect?
Of course, all the $hit wierwille has done has been done before and will be done again – seems like there’s a never-ending supply of Weinsteins, Epsteins, and religious leaders that abuse parishioners.
Why do I sense we’re in disagreement over something?
Is it over me citing the term inventors of evil?
Hell, I dunno – if you don’t like inventor – how about architect?
Of course, all the $hit wierwille has done has been done before and will be done again – seems like there’s a never-ending supply of Weinsteins, Epsteins, and religious leaders that abuse parishioners.
The thread is specifically about The Word of God is The Will of God and how the turn of phrase is deception.
I'm not and nobody here is claiming to know exactly what God's will is, but this phrase certainly puts VPW in the driver's seat, assuming one accepts it at face value.
Sooner or later VPW's behavior as a sexual predator usually comes up, and phrases went along with it. It is important to touch on this aspect of him.
I feel I've heard his phrases other places, though.
He is a known plagiarizist. That's one idea.
Now a lies are lies, and twisted minds think alike. So there's that too.
Using "love" and associating it with what is usually unacceptable behavior is something I seem to be recognizing more of.
"Love of God in manifestion in the renewed mind in the household. . . ." Love associated with gibberish, then that gibberish can be associated somewhere else (if A=B and B=C then A=C)
It's as if some think "love" is a magic word that can make others do whatever they want.
sorry - I missed that - thought you were going in another direction
The counterculture, the anti-nuclear-family stance? A wife with numerous partners. Each man needs to reduce his self worth. The reasoning sounds the same.
Sure you just have to follow the Plaffy logic and do proper substitution because “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other” - straight outta Plaffy.
What is the Word of God?
Well it interprets itself but you have to take this class first. Then when you still don’t see it “interpreting itself” in places you can ask your overseer. And he can ask the top TWI leadership so they can really get you the Word of God on tough topics like debt.
What is the Will of God?
Well it involves obedience. Otherwise you are “self willed”. And since the ministry is the Word and the Word is the ministry, the will of God is basically what your overseer told you in the situation.
So to reach the full actual conclusion:
The Word of God and the Will of God are both available from your overseer. Just ask them what to do and you are “walking in wise counsel” and will be fine.
Recommended Posts
T-Bone
I liked the article, and my impression is it goes along similar lines to a book I read shortly after I left TWI in 1986 -
Decision Making & the Will Of God: FRIESEN, Garry with MAXSON, J. Robin: 9780930014476: Amazon.com: Books
In my opinion this is probably one of the biggest topics that folks still in TWI – and those thinking about leaving should reevaluate.
“So, what is the will of God? According to the article above, it's you” – I would put it differently – both the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 and the Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 address the cognitive process of selecting a course of action by being sensitize to biblical ethical issues – if relevant - and weighing the considerations of anticipated consequences for the various alternative actions (if there is more than one option available).
Also see
Decision-making - Wikipedia
8 Steps in the Decision-Making Process | HBS Online
7 Important Steps of the Decision Making Process [2023] • Asana
The Decision Making & the Will of God book of 1982 offers a biblical alternative to the traditional view of some Christian groups…and in the case of The Way International, an erroneous concept is taken to the extreme. The flawed assumption is that Christians desire to be in the center of God’s will and have only the narrow guideline of the Bible and direct revelation from God to work with…The Decision Making book lays out two categories of the will of God:
1. God’s sovereign will – known only to Him – this refers to God as supreme ruler and how He orchestrates almost innumerable elements (inanimate and living beings) to produce a desired effect, often surreptitiously in accordance with His own will. Think Romans 8: 26 - 28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Jesus taught us to submit to God's sovereign will - This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6 - most of the time we may never know what God's sovereign will is - but this attitude in prayer is the humility and trust we should have in God being sovereign.
1. God’s moral will – this God has made known in numerous ways – this is represented by the moral directives in the Bible such as:
The 10 commandments Exodus 20
The Two Great Commandments – love God and neighbor Matthew 22
The Golden Rule mentioned in Jesus’ sermon on the mount Matthew 7:12
The Moral Requirements of the law written on our hearts - our conscience bearing witness to that Romans 2
The type of guidance we should expect from God is moral in nature - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one Matthew 6 I think we’ve all had instances where we stew and fret over a situation on what to do – and we pray for some kind of guidance – so we shouldn’t be surprised that God answers our prayer by bringing to the forefront of our attention some detail of the situation that now sticks out like a sore thumb of what is the wrong thing to do.
Isn't it fascinating in Matthew 6 that it covers both God's sovereign will, and His moral will.
~ ~ ~ ~
When I was involved in TWI, I adopted the center-of-God’s-will concept for my decision making process – because that’s the way TWI taught us to choose. My self-confidence was slowly whittled away so that I felt more comfortable in taking the route any good little way-believer would choose. I just got off the WOW field and had thought about finishing college for a degree in fine arts. But where should I go? Back to New York? Being in my early 20s and going WOW must have kindled some wanderlust.
I think my WOW year groomed me for checking with leadership before making any big decisions. So my wife and I talked about what state we’d like to live in – contacted the limb coordinator there and asked for a list of cities that had colleges and where he would like to see 2 WOW vets move “the Word”. So, we picked one from the list. It’s funny though, we lived there 4 years and I never did find the time nor had the desire to finish college. Moving “The Word” and running PFAL classes became more important to me. This only dealt with non-moral issues (like where to live, whether to finish college) – but I mention it here to show catering to TWI’s agenda tends to eclipse one’s personal preferences, priorities, and goals.
Generally in non-moral issues TWI tended to push a decision making process that was predicated on knowing-God’s-sovereign-will…and since God’s sovereign will is known only to Him – this was all presumptive that you should do or not do something just because it’s assumed to be the will of God for your life. If the choice is between running a Ponzi scheme or going to work for a legitimate financial institution – the choice should be obvious – a Ponzi scheme is off the table. Now if the choices are 3 different legitimate financial institutions – one nearby but starting salary is just okay, one in another state that offers a much higher salary with lots of executive perks and will pay to move you and your family, and the third involves a 3-hour commute with salary just a little better than the nearby office but there’s a chance you’ll become a partner within 2 years since a close friend of yours started the company. Which do you choose? It’s totally up to you. What are your preferences, priorities, and goals. There is no wrong choice as far as God’s sovereign will or God’s moral will are concerned.
When it came to morals wierwille took situational ethics to some next level $hit. Situational ethics takes into account only the particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically, rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards.
wierwille’s perspective was the vantage point of a sociopath.
There was no right or wrong – there was only whatever wierwille wanted to do.
He was best known for his self-referential code of conduct by such statements as:
“As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please.”
“Anything done in the love of God is okay.”
Note in both statements there is the advantage of giving oneself a free pass to do even unconscionable acts.
All one has to do is convince themselves they love God and neighbor.
In her memoir Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape: Skedgell, Kristen: 9780972002196: Amazon.com: Books , Kristen relates the incident of wierwille sexually molesting her under the pretext that he was helping her learn to be a better lover for her future husband.
~ ~ ~ ~
In the orange book Power for Abundant Living, chapter 23, Knowing One’s Sonship Rights, page 338, notice how wierwille defines sanctification:
The word “ sanctified” means “to be set apart”…when he is born again, he is set apart by God for heaven and all hell can’t stop him from going.
In other words, one can live like the devil, and it doesn’t matter to God – you’re going to heaven anyway.
I believe that Bible Gate Blog article of 2017 is more in line with the sentiment of the Bible:
We hear a lot of talk about “sanctification,” but what does that really mean?
James MacDonald: Here’s a definition: Sanctification is the lifelong process in which Christ-followers are refined and increasingly conformed to the behavior pattern of Jesus Christ. It’s the work of God in the lives of forgiven sinners that takes them step-by-step away from selfish, sinful patterns of living and more and more into a life that’s wholly holy and set apart entirely for the glory of Jesus Christ.
God uses hardship and the circumstances of life to shape and show our character. To be sanctified is to live in complete, continuous submission to him.
~ ~ ~ ~
If I may reiterate a few things you brought up. God is sovereign as "the divine orchestra conductor". We are not expected to make perfect decisions - just morally good choices.
What is the sovereign will of God? Only God knows. What is the moral will of God? It’s not that hard to figure out.
I’ll close with more excerpts from the Bible Gate Blog article of 2017:
How should Christians make decisions?
James MacDonald: The Scriptures make some choices explicitly clear, and our decision on those matters should be no-brainers. For example, should you take something that doesn’t belong to you (also known as stealing)? What’s God’s will for you in this choice? The fact that God included “You shall not steal” (Exodus 20:15) in the ten cardinal rules we call the Ten Commandments should clue us in clearly to what God wants. Easy decision. Don’t steal!
But what do you do when the choices and alternatives are not as clear? What do you do when the choice is not a matter of a specific, biblical mandate that distinguishes right and wrong?
When handling equal choices, God wants you to make the decision that would please you. God is a good Father who loves you! Within the boundaries of God’s Word, we find structure, direction, protection, and freedom. We don’t have to live in terror of making a wrong choice and violating his purposes.
Edited by T-BoneThe mistakes of the poster are the typos of the editor
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I perceive a perhaps second meaning to Wierwille's "sanctification," more along the lines of isolation so he (and his successors) could have you and me delegate our personal sovereignty (decision making responsibility and authority) to him and his freakin' cult.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Who would have thought it could be Napoleon Hill, the Think and Grow Rich author, who could synthesize a scripture such as "you shall know them by their fruit" into such obvious insight to separate the "wheat from the chaff," so to speak, in Wierwille, Martindale, and the cult they built? Synchronistic events/occurrences, perhaps to find such insight without opening a bible?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Nice, a lot to digest here. Yeah my statement was brief and the best I understood, it's incomplete.
Mathew 6 is a good example, it could be read by a Wayfer in light of The Law of Believing, and thus expect results.
Or . . . The point is seek ye first The Kingdom of God . . . there's one central point . . . one main goal . . . after which all other decisions flow. Focusing exclusively each day on what to eat isn't much of a life, is it? But you will still need to make decisions about what to eat, it's just not the central theme of the day.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I read that and I know VPW was being a criminal pervert. I also hear in that an idea that is prevalent today . . . young women are taught by each other to take on as many men as possible at a young age . . . does that benefit themselves, or someone else?
. . . Did VPW plagiarize this idea?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I keep seeing this come up. “Body count” is what they call it, I think.
Kids these days…
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I imagine wierwille was original in that he was driven by his own lusts.
I don’t see a correlation between the motivation of a sexual predator like wierwille and the change in the sexual mores of young women in general. Now if you want to recast the topic to mean what is the connection of a cult-leader-sexual predator and a change in the sexual mores of young women involved in that cult, the answer should be obvious.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
20 years ago it was called the "hoe phase" . . . later it's the carousel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Victor Paul Wierwille did not invent evil. He was just a vector for it. He could have easily borrowed from the thinking of the 1960s. Free love with no cost?
I don't see the difference between VPW's logic and what I have been referring to. They are one in the same.
I think sociopathic is one of terms used. Narcissistic is another.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I think the phrase "anything done with love of God is okay" . . . that's the basic reasoning . . . a person does as they please because it's all about love
and when you listen carefully the other party has to reduce themselves, because love is limited and comes from a dispenser, so they begin to associate abuse with love . . . and reality is distorted . . . good is evil and evil is good . . . pain is happiness and happiness is pain . . . and you end up with a number of people taking care of one central person
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
What helped me was to simply start reading scripture again without worrying about what vpw, or others, re-defining what is written in plain English. You are absolutely right because VPW is a lightning rod of sorts around here but he did not invent evil, we wasnt the first or last false prophet but a relatively insignificant one on the world's stage, which appearantly he longed to play upon. Personally, I like to read the 1611 KJV, but reading helps to understand what is written and you have to know what is written to distinguish the changes other's have added, or what they have taken away even.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Well, KJV does mention “inventors of evil things” or if you prefer NIV it’s “they invent ways of doing evil” :
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1
And in light of Romans 1 - I’d have to disagree with saying wierwille was just a vector for evil.
Vector = an organism, typically a biting insect or tick, that transmits a disease or parasite from one animal or plant to another…To me that would relieve wierwille of any responsibility – whereas Romans 1 does NOT alleviate wierwille’s accountability.
Borrowed from the “60s-free-love-counterculture”? Sure however you want to look at it. But you know, inventors usually don’t whip up creations out of thin air – they usually get inspiration from something. The Wright Brothers studied birds.
It’s unclear to me what you don’t see a difference in.
You don't see a difference between a sexual predator and counterculture ?
Perhaps if you click on the previous hyperlinks in my sentence - then we convene , discuss and maybe come to an agreement on terms.
You seem to be compiling and/or confabulating sexual predator, counterculture, sociopathic and narcissistic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Let me be clear,
Victor Paul Wierwille deserved to have his skin slowly peeled from his entire body.
Nothing VPW did hasn't not been done before, and will be repeated many times into the future.
On one hand we have Victor Paul Wierwille, descriptions of his sexual behavior are very limited. He was not known for creativity.
He lied to people and used language to equate one term with another to get people to act against their better judgement and self-interest.
Among these ideas was to confuse serving God and loving others with language that resulted in others allowing themselves to be used for sex and acquiring resources.
anything unclear or left out here?
Edited by Bolshevikclarity
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
"Anything done with love of God is okay" was just one of wierwille’s methods to redefine Christian love – and that was for the ‘benefit’ of his followers – in other words it was twisted reasoning that his followers accepted. But wierwille was a sociopath – he didn’t need to rationalize anything to alleviate bad feelings. His own behavior didn’t bother him one bit!
Not sure what to say about your 2nd paragraph other than the nebulous cauldron of indoctrination that went on in my head while in-residence when wierwille would throw out conscience-recalibrating-and-confusing phrases like that. Depending on how whacked out or inappropriate the context would be – the best I can remember is that I’d feel uncomfortable and childish – and that I had a lot of spiritual maturing to do to think like he did.
If you look at my opening post in the thread TWI's sedative to the conscience note what I said:
“Fast forward to being in the Family Corps in my early thirties. Sitting in a pajama party – VPW the master of ceremonies showing off his famous doggie porn video, and calling a sixteen-year-old girl up front to show her a porn pen. The most disturbing aspect of this memory to me now is that no alarms were going off in my head at the time of this incident.”
With the great respect and extreme admiration I had for wierwille, the anesthetizing of my conscience had already begun by this time. Because NO red flags came up in my head at the time.
It’s really freaky to realize that now!
A fvcking sexual predator was hiding out in plain sight – but I didn’t see it…
...and some more afterthoughts in light of our present discussion.
I never was - nor never became a sexual predator.
I never committed adultery. I never cheated on my wife.
I never sexually molested any woman…
...but I’m honest enough to admit that my conscience, my sense of boundaries and decorum was definitely tampered with by wierwille’s influence...
and who knows how bad my character would have been corrupted had I stayed in TWI – especially in any kind of leadership capacity as way corps – the power structure corrupts…temptations and opportunities will abound.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
You’re crystal clear!
Why do I sense we’re in disagreement over something?
Is it over me citing the term inventors of evil?
Hell, I dunno – if you don’t like inventor – how about architect?
Of course, all the $hit wierwille has done has been done before and will be done again – seems like there’s a never-ending supply of Weinsteins, Epsteins, and religious leaders that abuse parishioners.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Look, I couldnt help myself!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
The thread is specifically about The Word of God is The Will of God and how the turn of phrase is deception.
I'm not and nobody here is claiming to know exactly what God's will is, but this phrase certainly puts VPW in the driver's seat, assuming one accepts it at face value.
Sooner or later VPW's behavior as a sexual predator usually comes up, and phrases went along with it. It is important to touch on this aspect of him.
I feel I've heard his phrases other places, though.
He is a known plagiarizist. That's one idea.
Now a lies are lies, and twisted minds think alike. So there's that too.
Using "love" and associating it with what is usually unacceptable behavior is something I seem to be recognizing more of.
"Love of God in manifestion in the renewed mind in the household. . . ." Love associated with gibberish, then that gibberish can be associated somewhere else (if A=B and B=C then A=C)
It's as if some think "love" is a magic word that can make others do whatever they want.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Understood
sorry - I missed that - thought you were going in another direction
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
The counterculture, the anti-nuclear-family stance? A wife with numerous partners. Each man needs to reduce his self worth. The reasoning sounds the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Is the Word of God the Will of God?
Sure you just have to follow the Plaffy logic and do proper substitution because “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other” - straight outta Plaffy.
What is the Word of God?
Well it interprets itself but you have to take this class first. Then when you still don’t see it “interpreting itself” in places you can ask your overseer. And he can ask the top TWI leadership so they can really get you the Word of God on tough topics like debt.
What is the Will of God?
Well it involves obedience. Otherwise you are “self willed”. And since the ministry is the Word and the Word is the ministry, the will of God is basically what your overseer told you in the situation.
So to reach the full actual conclusion:
The Word of God and the Will of God are both available from your overseer. Just ask them what to do and you are “walking in wise counsel” and will be fine.
Got it?
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.