TWI was not the target of my questions. I think TWI-2 and -3 drifted deep into malevolent cult behavior. The early twigs I attended were benevolent.
What I was asking about were the human dynamics that malevolent cults use, and how they are analyzed here and by some academics.
My questions are about Jesus using the same techniques for his group, but in a godly, balanced manner.
My example was the technique of isolation and "us against them" mentality. I saw lots of good uses of that technique at times in early TWI, but also saw lots of bad uses in TWI's later years.
I think VPW tried and somewhat succeeded in keeping the Corps in the benevolent status, but his influence sharply dropped after 1982 with Craig at the wheel. I saw the Corps develop into a malevolent cult in the mid 1980s.
I have a different perspective.
No I do not believe Jesus employed an isolationist us versus them approach to leadership.
I think you could take a particular instance where he is confronting one of his guys on commitment knowing his individual situation and stupidly expand it and make it an isolationist thing. But that is just one more misinterpretation of a scripture story.
No there is not a “godly balanced” brainwashing or removal of personal boundaries or ignoring 90% of the body of Christ.
But if you are a conspiracy theorist and believe that 90% is ruled by seed of the serpent men, then an isolationist existence is at least logically consistent. It’s deluded wrong and evil, but logically consistent.
Oh and regarding your ad hominem attack describing the Corps turning into a malevolent cult in the 80s when you know I was part of it.
thought the purpose of this thread's discussion was to mock some statements I made with a gross misrepresentation.
Dude...
YOu involve yourself with various discussions and come up with the craziest ideas and when we disagree you act like you've been attacked...trollshonta malakas laseetay.
YOu involve yourself with various discussions and come up with the craziest ideas and when we disagree you act like you've been attacked...trollshonta malakas laseetay.
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
Man you will say anything to give wierwille legitimacy ... He wasn't Christlike and trying to give his abusive cult legitimacy by saying Jesus was a cult is shameful.
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
So, what specifically would make Jesus a cult leader?
And, using on of your previous arguments, wouldn't it be to the devil's advantage for Jesus to be labeled a cult leader?
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
Yes when “hunches” bypass clear facts and logic like I posted.
Your “hunch” comes from the same place as your labeling of all our activity here “hate”.
Simple censorship.
No your cult more resembles the KKK than it does Jesus followers.
I along with several other clear posters label Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
The cult you follow is involved with making brass images of VPW and placing them in prominent places in life. And then denying the idolatry by inventing “anti idol”.
Oh the lengths that your brain jumps to when justifying yourself is hilarious. Irrational. And comical. Unintentionally.
Mike has too much “sunk cost” or “invested interest” spent in TWI to ever get honest about it. 25 plus years of grooving that same mental rut.
It’s kind of like if JR or Vern came on here to discuss. They have the entire life of sunk cost involved with their positions and structure. There is no way they could be even close to objective. That is why the knee jerk response to suggested change is excommunication. That is why that is exactly what they did in response to RnR. There are many things they could do. But the fruit of their lives as leaders is what they choose TO do.
No it wasn’t TWI 3 or whatever that is the problem. It is the entire enchilada.
Many others have proposed equitable changes. But the pattern seen is to excommunicate all suggesting them. And to ignore them first.
For example can you do their programs and classes unrestricted with a mortgage? Why not? There has been more than ample scriptural research presented why saying a rental lease is not debt but a mortgage is debt is twisted logic. And they have backed off to I think allowing AC class participation with a mortgage. But not programs like Corps or Ambassador. They change minimally just barely ahead of legal trends. Just like the Mormons.
And that is why Jesus taught the Pharisees children are 3 fold the children of hell that they were.
That reminds me of another theory- absence makes the heart grow fonder - one feels more affection for what’s missing - like money, talent, intelligence, fake degree.
Absence is like a vacuum is like a malignant narcissist.
Is it, though? Back in the day, if things weren't going well, we used to say, "We must be doing something right for the devil to be attacking us."
Same difference, no?
There is some truth in that.
Encountering the devil's direct resistance can very well mean his kingdom is threatened.
HOWEVER, encountering satanic (not direct) resistance can possibly mean that the problem is self inflicted. I saw this in the ministry at times. Neighbors would rightfully complain about twig fellowship people hogging all the parking spots, or singing too loud with open windows. This was wrongly interpreted at times as a devilish attack, when it was just stupid.
Encountering the devil's direct resistance can very well mean his kingdom is threatened.
HOWEVER, encountering satanic (not direct) resistance can possibly mean that the problem is self inflicted. I saw this in the ministry at times. Neighbors would rightfully complain about twig fellowship people hogging all the parking spots, or singing too loud with open windows. This was wrongly interpreted at times as a devilish attack, when it was just stupid.
Right, since not all the palantiri are accounted for, one should keep them covered.
HOWEVER, encountering satanic (not direct) resistance can possibly mean that the problem is self inflicted. I saw this in the ministry at times. Neighbors would rightfully complain about twig fellowship people hogging all the parking spots, or singing too loud with open windows. This was wrongly interpreted at times as a devilish attack, when it was just stupid.
The attack was just stupid or the interpretation of the attack was just stupid?
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waysider
I knew someone who died trying to make it work. Then, the ministry blamed him for not having big enough believing. He left behind a wife and 2 young kids.
WordWolf
Every once in a while, in society and here, there's someone who engages in this specific fallacy. "I must be right because I'm in the minority." "I must be right because lots of people keep insistin
chockfull
As a different direction with respect to all of the philosophical angles on the law of believing, I am considering Jesus teachings in Matt 6:27 “which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his
waysider
Al Capone ran soup kitchens. I guess he was a swell guy, after all.
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chockfull
I have a different perspective.
No I do not believe Jesus employed an isolationist us versus them approach to leadership.
I think you could take a particular instance where he is confronting one of his guys on commitment knowing his individual situation and stupidly expand it and make it an isolationist thing. But that is just one more misinterpretation of a scripture story.
No there is not a “godly balanced” brainwashing or removal of personal boundaries or ignoring 90% of the body of Christ.
But if you are a conspiracy theorist and believe that 90% is ruled by seed of the serpent men, then an isolationist existence is at least logically consistent. It’s deluded wrong and evil, but logically consistent.
Oh and regarding your ad hominem attack describing the Corps turning into a malevolent cult in the 80s when you know I was part of it.
f off.
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Mike
I thought the purpose of this thread's discussion was to mock some statements I made with a gross misrepresentation.
It is silly to think someone say:
Edited by Mike"I must be right because everyone is insisting I am wrong!"
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So_crates
Hitler brought a bankrupt nation to near world domination. I guess that makes him a Saint.
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OldSkool
Dude...
YOu involve yourself with various discussions and come up with the craziest ideas and when we disagree you act like you've been attacked...trollshonta malakas laseetay.
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OldSkool
Yeah...he meant well
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Bolshevik
NO
(yes it is funny)
YOU made comments about human dynamics and proceeded to generalizations between good and bad cults.
You made no indication of where lines are crossed, and where they are not.
The dihydrogen monoxide reference is about YOU, Mike.
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So_crates
Again, nobody's mocking your statements. They're showing you a flaw in your reasoning.
Also, you started the tangent, now you want to go back to the threads purpose? I guess it's because you picked a bad tangent.
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Mike
This is not a crazy idea. Many criticize Jesus for being a cult leader. It's not my idea. I just want to know how all these "cult detection" tools work when applied to Jesus. My hunch is that these tools label him bad cult, just like the critics I've heard over the decades.
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OldSkool
It's your reality.
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Bolshevik
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waysider
Is it, though? Back in the day, if things weren't going well, we used to say, "We must be doing something right for the devil to be attacking us."
Same difference, no?
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OldSkool
Man you will say anything to give wierwille legitimacy ... He wasn't Christlike and trying to give his abusive cult legitimacy by saying Jesus was a cult is shameful.
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So_crates
So, what specifically would make Jesus a cult leader?
And, using on of your previous arguments, wouldn't it be to the devil's advantage for Jesus to be labeled a cult leader?
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OldSkool
Mike - this is yet another logic fallacy called argumentum ad populum. Your saying your argument has legitimacy because a majority say or think so.
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chockfull
Yes when “hunches” bypass clear facts and logic like I posted.
Your “hunch” comes from the same place as your labeling of all our activity here “hate”.
Simple censorship.
No your cult more resembles the KKK than it does Jesus followers.
I along with several other clear posters label Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
The cult you follow is involved with making brass images of VPW and placing them in prominent places in life. And then denying the idolatry by inventing “anti idol”.
Oh the lengths that your brain jumps to when justifying yourself is hilarious. Irrational. And comical. Unintentionally.
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chockfull
Mike has too much “sunk cost” or “invested interest” spent in TWI to ever get honest about it. 25 plus years of grooving that same mental rut.
It’s kind of like if JR or Vern came on here to discuss. They have the entire life of sunk cost involved with their positions and structure. There is no way they could be even close to objective. That is why the knee jerk response to suggested change is excommunication. That is why that is exactly what they did in response to RnR. There are many things they could do. But the fruit of their lives as leaders is what they choose TO do.
No it wasn’t TWI 3 or whatever that is the problem. It is the entire enchilada.
Many others have proposed equitable changes. But the pattern seen is to excommunicate all suggesting them. And to ignore them first.
For example can you do their programs and classes unrestricted with a mortgage? Why not? There has been more than ample scriptural research presented why saying a rental lease is not debt but a mortgage is debt is twisted logic. And they have backed off to I think allowing AC class participation with a mortgage. But not programs like Corps or Ambassador. They change minimally just barely ahead of legal trends. Just like the Mormons.
And that is why Jesus taught the Pharisees children are 3 fold the children of hell that they were.
Sunk cost produces egotistical entitled monsters.
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Rocky
It must have been because you read it wrong. /snark
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Bolshevik
Hoovering
Just to suck you back into the thread, a link to elaborate even further the many ways a person can suck.
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Nathan_Jr
The postcard is a hoovering tactic.
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Mike
There is some truth in that.
Encountering the devil's direct resistance can very well mean his kingdom is threatened.
HOWEVER, encountering satanic (not direct) resistance can possibly mean that the problem is self inflicted. I saw this in the ministry at times. Neighbors would rightfully complain about twig fellowship people hogging all the parking spots, or singing too loud with open windows. This was wrongly interpreted at times as a devilish attack, when it was just stupid.
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Bolshevik
Right, since not all the palantiri are accounted for, one should keep them covered.
Who knows who might have their eye on you . . .
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
The attack was just stupid or the interpretation of the attack was just stupid?
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