I was googling about Christ's return and saw 1 John 2: 28:
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
"Continue in him" is kind of hard to do when he is supposedly "absent." Previous verses in this chapter says,
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Keeping his commands is "proof" that we know Jesus and again this is kind of hard to do if he is absent in our lives. I'm going to try to change the title of this thread to "The Hope - Knowing Jesus" since this is how we can be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. Even though the title is the opposite of the Absent Christ title, a lot about knowing Jesus was shared in that thread. Hopefully, this thread will bring the two ideas together as 1 John talked about them.
To be honest, the hope of Christ’s return has never “burned” in my heart because I find it difficult to believe it’s really going to happen. One obvious reason is because Christ has been absent for my entire Christian life up until a few months ago so why would I have an intense desire to see him.Another reason is that the idea of our works here on earth being judged by Christ resulting in receiving or not receiving rewards had been poisoned by things like lcm saying something like “I don’t want to have to duck at Christ’s return” in the context of being a “doulos slave” or an “athlete of the spirit.”
It’s distressing because if I claim to believe the scriptures about everything else, then why would the parousia seem to be so farfetched to me.This doubt often gnaws at my belief that God even exists.
I’m wondering how others think and feel about Christ coming back and how a belief in the hope affects their lives.
This post is all over the place – excuse the mess – enjoy my stream of consciousness.
Your post is relatable to me – it’s refreshing and healing to read about someone baring their soul.
I don’t mean to project my beliefs / feelings onto anyone else – because I often think of myself as damaged goods – in terms of my beliefs and cognitive skills post-TWI-as a cult survivor…So I appreciate your being honest and open.
Most of my work career I’ve been involved in various aspects of safety and security. Thinking what’s the worst case scenario for a living tends to build habits of preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake…last night I heard there have been 33 mass shootings in the US for 2023 – that’s 1.06 mass shootings per day!
I can only do so much. Our family is trying to adjust to the new normal. I get these morbid thoughts when I hear of a child or a teen being killed, murdered, in a tragic accident. I imagine if that was me dead at 16 – then some 54 years of my experiences, relationships, trials and errors, successes and failures never happened. Every so often my wife or I will see the other off on an errand – we always remind each other to be cautious and watch out – and along with that we may tack on a pensive farewell like it might be the last time we see each other. I can only imagine what the people of Ukraine have to deal with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. (Matthew 24 )
And stuff seems like it’s getting worse…I remember the fears and worries in the aftermath of 9/11/2001. My wife and I were on vacation in California – the kids were home in Texas. I freaked out and had some fuzzy notion that the tribulation had started – and regretting I never studied the book of Revelation…or if that isn’t it…it’s the end of the world as I know it… All my wife and I were concerned about was getting home to be with the kids.
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Some of the things Jesus said are enigmatic – like this…The best I can figure out on these verses – and I could be way off – two ideas seem apparent:
1.Instead of looking where and to whom one should assign blame for a catastrophe, think about the day of judgement.
2.To me this also challenges the twisted moral superiority I used to hold onto while in TWI. As a general rule of thumb, I used to look down on anyone who suffered from misfortune or great catastrophe or tragedy – cuz they didn’t believe in God…or they weren’t standing on the rightly-divided Word and various other snobbish notions I had entertained…In my opinion the TWI-mindset has a way of making one unusually callous…insensitive to the needs of others.
~ ~ ~ ~
TWI had a sneaky way of using the hope to mislead, abuse and exploit others – it was either the carrot or the stick – reward and punishment:
1.wierwille taught being saved means you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going. This supports an unrestrained lifestyle. You can do whatever you want.
Amplified Bible on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus…Romans 2:16...God will judge our motivations !!!!! nuff said
2.Heavenly rewards are for those who are faithful to The Way International. If you cop out or trip out you won’t get rewarded.
3. Encourages mooching. I remember this one branch coordinator who would mooch off everyone – and make like it was no big deal – and why should it be – Jesus Christ could come back at any moment.
4. When LCM became prez it seems like he ramped up the transitory attitude among TWI-followers. I remember in various way corps teachings, LCM’s usual push was – in one form or another – live to serve the ministry…burn yourself out for God…what do you need to own a home for? Our home is in heaven! Why be concerned about hoarding material goods, working toward retirement money, 401Ks? Jesus Christ could come back tomorrow! Quit whining about your need to sleep. You’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven!
5. wierwille’s ultra-dispensationalism turned a blind eye (his glass eye ) to the book of Revelation. It wasn’t until years after I left TWI – that I became interested in the last book of the Bible. Partly due to curiosity, partly due to the way I’m wired- remember what I said above – being worrisome over worst case scenarios, preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake. Not that I figured out much of it – but there is a blessing that’s associated with those who read it and respond in obedience:
New International Version Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near…Revelation 1:3
“Time is near” can refer to an epoch, period, or season. The book of Revelation is both prediction and proclamation – foretelling future events and preaching about who God is and what He will do. Thus hope is based on God’s character and promises…I find that in studying Revelation I’m getting to know God better and my trust in Him is strengthened.
It’s a good thing to think about others and how we could be of service to them. What if the time of great tribulation happens soon and I’m in the thick of it? I don’t want to freak out – I’d like to help out others if I could.
This post is all over the place – excuse the mess – enjoy my stream of consciousness.
Your post is relatable to me – it’s refreshing and healing to read about someone baring their soul.
I don’t mean to project my beliefs / feelings onto anyone else – because I often think of myself as damaged goods – in terms of my beliefs and cognitive skills post-TWI-as a cult survivor…So I appreciate your being honest and open.
Most of my work career I’ve been involved in various aspects of safety and security. Thinking what’s the worst case scenario for a living tends to build habits of preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake…last night I heard there have been 33 mass shootings in the US for 2023 – that’s 1.06 mass shootings per day!
I can only do so much. Our family is trying to adjust to the new normal. I get these morbid thoughts when I hear of a child or a teen being killed, murdered, in a tragic accident. I imagine if that was me dead at 16 – then some 54 years of my experiences, relationships, trials and errors, successes and failures never happened. Every so often my wife or I will see the other off on an errand – we always remind each other to be cautious and watch out – and along with that we may tack on a pensive farewell like it might be the last time we see each other. I can only imagine what the people of Ukraine have to deal with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. (Matthew 24 )
And stuff seems like it’s getting worse…I remember the fears and worries in the aftermath of 9/11/2001. My wife and I were on vacation in California – the kids were home in Texas. I freaked out and had some fuzzy notion that the tribulation had started – and regretting I never studied the book of Revelation…or if that isn’t it…it’s the end of the world as I know it… All my wife and I were concerned about was getting home to be with the kids.
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Some of the things Jesus said are enigmatic – like this…The best I can figure out on these verses – and I could be way off – two ideas seem apparent:
1.Instead of looking where and to whom one should assign blame for a catastrophe, think about the day of judgement.
2.To me this also challenges the twisted moral superiority I used to hold onto while in TWI. As a general rule of thumb, I used to look down on anyone who suffered from misfortune or great catastrophe or tragedy – cuz they didn’t believe in God…or they weren’t standing on the rightly-divided Word and various other snobbish notions I had entertained…In my opinion the TWI-mindset has a way of making one unusually callous…insensitive to the needs of others.
~ ~ ~ ~
TWI had a sneaky way of using the hope to mislead, abuse and exploit others – it was either the carrot or the stick – reward and punishment:
1.wierwille taught being saved means you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going. This supports an unrestrained lifestyle. You can do whatever you want.
Amplified Bible on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus…Romans 2:16...God will judge our motivations !!!!! nuff said
2.Heavenly rewards are for those who are faithful to The Way International. If you cop out or trip out you won’t get rewarded.
3. Encourages mooching. I remember this one branch coordinator who would mooch off everyone – and make like it was no big deal – and why should it be – Jesus Christ could come back at any moment.
4. When LCM became prez it seems like he ramped up the transitory attitude among TWI-followers. I remember in various way corps teachings, LCM’s usual push was – in one form or another – live to serve the ministry…burn yourself out for God…what do you need to own a home for? Our home is in heaven! Why be concerned about hoarding material goods, working toward retirement money, 401Ks? Jesus Christ could come back tomorrow! Quit whining about your need to sleep. You’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven!
5. wierwille’s ultra-dispensationalism turned a blind eye (his glass eye ) to the book of Revelation. It wasn’t until years after I left TWI – that I became interested in the last book of the Bible. Partly due to curiosity, partly due to the way I’m wired- remember what I said above – being worrisome over worst case scenarios, preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake. Not that I figured out much of it – but there is a blessing that’s associated with those who read it and respond in obedience:
New International Version Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near…Revelation 1:3
“Time is near” can refer to an epoch, period, or season. The book of Revelation is both prediction and proclamation – foretelling future events and preaching about who God is and what He will do. Thus hope is based on God’s character and promises…I find that in studying Revelation I’m getting to know God better and my trust in Him is strengthened.
It’s a good thing to think about others and how we could be of service to them. What if the time of great tribulation happens soon and I’m in the thick of it? I don’t want to freak out – I’d like to help out others if I could.
T-Bone,
Thanks for sharing your interest and thoughts. I'm not sure if my reply will address any of your concerns above, but here is what I'm thinking. Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:5-7 about wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places have been happening since the time Jesus spoke these wars right up to today. It's all horrible, horrible things that people have had to live through. It's also very concerning what the next day, week, month, year...might bring.
When will all the pain and suffering stop for us and all of our future generations? The epistles encourage us to look forward to the time of Christ's return for his church. It's the hope we've been given. It is meant to strengthen us as we deal with whatever comes our way in life. Just as I'm sitting here writing this, I remember how excited I get thinking that my autistic grandson will one day receive a new body or I'll get to see my parents again. The biggest joy of them all is seeing Christ for the very first time.
But then the doubt sets in. Is any of it true - will the return really happen?
I feel like hope is supposed to be encouraging and uplifting and a source of strength in a time of trouble.
This song by one of my favorite bands - brothers - really inspires me like that. Hope is a personification in the lyrics.
I really like the song Chockfull - it is inspiring, especially the chorus. It makes me think again of the quote I shared in my opening post.
"However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.”
Maybe a lack of enthusiasm or faith in the hope is because of not hearing enough or reading enough about it. Maybe it's finding a church that is alive because of their hope in Christ's coming to gather us together to meet him in the air. Maybe it's growing closer to Christ that makes his return more real. All I know for sure is that the importance of it for believers is a big deal in scripture.
To be honest, the hope of Christ’s return has never “burned” in my heart because I find it difficult to believe it’s really going to happen. One obvious reason is because Christ has been absent for my entire Christian life up until a few months ago so why would I have an intense desire to see him.Another reason is that the idea of our works here on earth being judged by Christ resulting in receiving or not receiving rewards had been poisoned by things like lcm saying something like “I don’t want to have to duck at Christ’s return” in the context of being a “doulos slave” or an “athlete of the spirit.”
It’s distressing because if I claim to believe the scriptures about everything else, then why would the parousia seem to be so farfetched to me.This doubt often gnaws at my belief that God even exists.
I’m wondering how others think and feel about Christ coming back and how a belief in the hope affects their lives.
2 hours ago, Charity said:
But then the doubt sets in. Is any of it true - will the return really happen?
I grew up in a Christian home with a loving family. I have believed in the existence of God ever since I can remember. This is one of my core beliefs. Along with that another core belief was always have faith in the Bible as the very Word of God. Life happens and sometimes we are challenged to reexamine our ‘philosophy’…our worldview. Raised in Roman Catholicism, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., astral projection, joined a cult with a fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism basis – and after 12 years of involvement with The Way International – overwhelmed with frustration…disappointment…disenchantment I again reevaluated my core values – they’re ‘fuzzier’ …not so clearly defined – not wierwille’s little God-in-a-boxnorhis catechism of the Bible.
The book of Revelation has often been interpreted various ways throughout the church’s history – four of the most notable are: futuristic, preterist view, ideal/allegorically, and a broad view of history - see Book of Revelation - Wikipedia.
Did the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century believers ever wonder when their hope would be realized?
What if it’s another thousand years from now?
I’d rather not lock myself into the way I think things should happen and when - because that has screwed me up before.
Here are some of my thoughts on the topic. If they're of some use to you, great.
lcm was big on using Christ's return as a bludgeon to get people to take more twi classes and serve twi more. (At the end of AotS, his exhortations stopped at Twig coordinator and Advanced Class grad, as if anyone who didn't at least qualify for one or the other didn't count.) He also focused on getting more rewards when Jesus returns- as if that's a healthy reason to look forward to it. I'm looking forward to it regardless of titles, rewards, etc. Partly, I want to get together with Christians I haven't seen in a long time, or ones I've always wanted to meet (especially George Mueller.) Inasmuch as it's possible, the 2nd Tuesday after, I'm interested in hosting a barbecue, wherever we are. This whole "focus on grades" thing just doesn't move me.
Does it seem farfetched to me?
I guess that's the best question. Yes, it seems farfetched to me. Should I believe it anyway? Well, as I see it, if I believe the Bible, then yes. Should I believe the Bible that includes some farfetched things? As I see it, yes. If it's farfetched, why should I? Well, some things I can't prove or disprove, and become matters of faith. Should I have faith that they are true? That goes to the things that I CAN prove or disprove. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If I am to believe the Bible, then I'm going to need sufficient proof. (Long ago, when I was a Bible SCOFFER, it would have taken some exceptional proof to even get me to CONSIDER whether or not the Bible was correct. I did consider- which says more than a little. You don't see a guy for 2 months, and when you see him again, he's gone from Bible MOCKER to Bible QUOTER and holding it forth? What happened that Summer?)
When it comes to believing the Bible, I think-to me- it comes down to getting incredibly specific answers to prayer- answers that could not POSSIBLY be due to coincidences, timing, involvement of other humans, etc. In twi, too many people lauded "Kojacking" (getting a great parking spot rapidly) as a big deal. If that's the standard, you won't convince me it could not be coincidences and timing. For that matter, it wouldn't be the performances of alleged "faith healers" that would convince me, either. I was interested in stage magic since I was small, and I'm well aware how most stunts of supposed "faith healing" works- like transferring evil to an egg, etc, all through sleight-of-hand and stage magic skills.
So, for me, sufficient proof has been provided, beyond a reasonable doubt, on multiple occasions. So, I believe what I can "test" holds up- which means I believe the foundation for it.
I've been aware for decades that a lot of Christians have a deep faith despite never seeing anything truly remarkable, incredible, etc. I'm sure they believe, I still don't know how they believe. I was taught like that as a kid, and as a teen I walked away from it because there was nothing to convince me any of it was true other than "because I say so." Had there been nothing to see, I wouldn't be a Christian now, because I stopped being a Christian then. So, part of me is amazed some people believe that deeply without something obvious at some point.
How does it affect my life? I'm sure it doesn't affect it as much as it should. I do still mention it when discussing plans for the coming week and so on, and I look forward to it, whenever it happens. At one point, I was convinced it would probably happen within a few years- but I only told maybe 3 people and made it clear it was my opinion, what I thought. Obviously, I was wrong, but that happens. I certainly take some comfort that it WILL happen regardless of WHEN it will happen. In short, I am confident it will happen, and I don't doubt it will happen. It probably should affect my life more, but I try to serve God and I'm not going to pretend I do a fantastic job. God knew who He was calling when He did it, so I know He's not expecting the amazing out of me every 3rd Wednesday or something. I make a difference here and there, and freely acknowledge that it's not about me at all, but about God Almighty. If Jesus wants something specific from me otherwise, he knows where to find me, and how to convince me it's him or his messenger quickly.
I'm not sure I answered your questions, but I hope I made a difference somewhere in there.
I feel similar to WordWolf about receiving heavenly rewards – our service becomes more “me-centered” than “other-centered.” Instead, love feels more of a genuine motivation to reach out and help others.
In trying to understand God’s reasons then for giving rewards (not lcm’s or twi’s reasons), I looked at some scriptures this morning.So far, the receipt of rewards seems to fall under 2 categories: 1) for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ, and 2) for standing during persecution.
I think God is telling us that if we are willing to serve to do so lovingly and keep the focus on Christ as well as God.Not only are there benefits now but there are also His rewards for having had the right heart.The other reason concerns the difficulty of facing persecution and to help us persevere during these times, God reminds us there will be rewards awaiting us.Both of these reasons help me to feel more comfortable about the topic of rewards.
Below are the scriptures I looked at should you want to read them
CATEGORY #1 (for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ.)
1 Thess 2:7-12; 19-20Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.9Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.11For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children,12encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.
19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20Indeed, you are our glory and joy.
1 Cor 3:8-15 (context is believers choosing which leader they will follow)
8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.9For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Cor 4:1-5 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
1 Peter 5:1-4To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
CATEGORY #2 (for standing during persecution)
Hebrews 12:1-3Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
1 Cor 15:30-32; 58And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
58Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
2 John 1:7-8I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
It helps to keep 2 Peter in mind in this context as well.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Stumbled upon this when I was looking for verses on rewards this morning - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I guess my five-senses mind needs a spiritual awakening in order to realize this truth - which brings up the spirit of truth again. Jesus called him the "helper" in (John 14:26) and said he would "glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." (John 16:14)
1 Cor 15:12-19
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
This post is all over the place – excuse the mess – enjoy my stream of consciousness.
Your post is relatable to me – it’s refreshing and healing to read about someone baring their soul.
I don’t mean to project my beliefs / feelings onto anyone else – because I often think of myself as damaged goods – in terms of my beliefs and cognitive skills post-TWI-as a cult survivor…So I appreciate your being honest and open.
Most of my work career I’ve been involved in various aspects of safety and security. Thinking what’s the worst case scenario for a living tends to build habits of preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake…last night I heard there have been 33 mass shootings in the US for 2023 – that’s 1.06 mass shootings per day!
I can only do so much. Our family is trying to adjust to the new normal. I get these morbid thoughts when I hear of a child or a teen being killed, murdered, in a tragic accident. I imagine if that was me dead at 16 – then some 54 years of my experiences, relationships, trials and errors, successes and failures never happened. Every so often my wife or I will see the other off on an errand – we always remind each other to be cautious and watch out – and along with that we may tack on a pensive farewell like it might be the last time we see each other. I can only imagine what the people of Ukraine have to deal with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. (Matthew 24 )
And stuff seems like it’s getting worse…I remember the fears and worries in the aftermath of 9/11/2001. My wife and I were on vacation in California – the kids were home in Texas. I freaked out and had some fuzzy notion that the tribulation had started – and regretting I never studied the book of Revelation…or if that isn’t it…it’s the end of the world as I know it… All my wife and I were concerned about was getting home to be with the kids.
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Some of the things Jesus said are enigmatic – like this…The best I can figure out on these verses – and I could be way off – two ideas seem apparent:
1.Instead of looking where and to whom one should assign blame for a catastrophe, think about the day of judgement.
2.To me this also challenges the twisted moral superiority I used to hold onto while in TWI. As a general rule of thumb, I used to look down on anyone who suffered from misfortune or great catastrophe or tragedy – cuz they didn’t believe in God…or they weren’t standing on the rightly-divided Word and various other snobbish notions I had entertained…In my opinion the TWI-mindset has a way of making one unusually callous…insensitive to the needs of others.
~ ~ ~ ~
TWI had a sneaky way of using the hope to mislead, abuse and exploit others – it was either the carrot or the stick – reward and punishment:
1.wierwille taught being saved means you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going. This supports an unrestrained lifestyle. You can do whatever you want.
Amplified Bible on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus…Romans 2:16...God will judge our motivations !!!!! nuff said
2.Heavenly rewards are for those who are faithful to The Way International. If you cop out or trip out you won’t get rewarded.
3. Encourages mooching. I remember this one branch coordinator who would mooch off everyone – and make like it was no big deal – and why should it be – Jesus Christ could come back at any moment.
4. When LCM became prez it seems like he ramped up the transitory attitude among TWI-followers. I remember in various way corps teachings, LCM’s usual push was – in one form or another – live to serve the ministry…burn yourself out for God…what do you need to own a home for? Our home is in heaven! Why be concerned about hoarding material goods, working toward retirement money, 401Ks? Jesus Christ could come back tomorrow! Quit whining about your need to sleep. You’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven!
5. wierwille’s ultra-dispensationalism turned a blind eye (his glass eye ) to the book of Revelation. It wasn’t until years after I left TWI – that I became interested in the last book of the Bible. Partly due to curiosity, partly due to the way I’m wired- remember what I said above – being worrisome over worst case scenarios, preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake. Not that I figured out much of it – but there is a blessing that’s associated with those who read it and respond in obedience:
New International Version Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near…Revelation 1:3
“Time is near” can refer to an epoch, period, or season. The book of Revelation is both prediction and proclamation – foretelling future events and preaching about who God is and what He will do. Thus hope is based on God’s character and promises…I find that in studying Revelation I’m getting to know God better and my trust in Him is strengthened.
It’s a good thing to think about others and how we could be of service to them. What if the time of great tribulation happens soon and I’m in the thick of it? I don’t want to freak out – I’d like to help out others if I could.
How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance.
I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins?
I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.
There's lots of positions about "the Tribulation." Skipping all the "I don't believe the Bible" positions, you still have a bunch. There's amillenialism, which says there will be NO Tribulation, no Rapture, no Millenial Reign, etc. Everything in Revelation EXCLUSIVELY referred to events contemporary to the writing. There's Post-Millenial, which puts The Rapture and the First Resurrection as the same basic event as as the same Judgement. There's the Mid-Tribulation Position, which puts The Rapture at the 3 1/2 years mark, putting it right before " The Great Tribulation". There's the Pre-Tribulation position, which holds that The Rapture (aka "the Gathering Together" or " our Blessed Hope") happens right before The Tribulation.
I'm aware there's a lot of emotions on this topic here. I'm hoping to not start a flamewar.
Personally, I think the Pre-Trib position is correct, and reflects the actual content of the verses best. One of the big points of disagreement is when people first believed which positions. I think quite a bit of MISinformation is out there, which bodes poorly for civil discussion but sadly is fairly common nowadays. I don't mind discussing this, but I don't want to ARGUE this.
How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance.
I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins?
I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.
David Jeremiah’s timeline is common among most evangelicals – and I favor that myself – I hope I’ll be in the pre-trib rapture group – and it makes a lot of sense in the Pauline letters. I’ve got a hard time reconciling it to John’s Apocalypse – especially the messages to the 7 churches – there’s a sense of urgency - preparing them for what’s ahead – why would that be necessary if they’re taken out of the world in rapture?
David Jeremiah has stated that the way things are escalating means we are getting closer to the end-times – but there’s various ways to slice and dice what compromises the end-times. I like to study the book of Revelation, but I have no dog in the fight because I’m not sure how I fit in. So I figure whatever happens – happens. Jesus Christ is my Lord and He’s running the show – so I’m not going to worry a whole lot about stuff I don’t know.
There's lots of positions about "the Tribulation." Skipping all the "I don't believe the Bible" positions, you still have a bunch. There's amillenialism, which says there will be NO Tribulation, no Rapture, no Millenial Reign, etc. Everything in Revelation EXCLUSIVELY referred to events contemporary to the writing. There's Post-Millenial, which puts The Rapture and the First Resurrection as the same basic event as as the same Judgement. There's the Mid-Tribulation Position, which puts The Rapture at the 3 1/2 years mark, putting it right before " The Great Tribulation". There's the Pre-Tribulation position, which holds that The Rapture (aka "the Gathering Together" or " our Blessed Hope") happens right before The Tribulation.
I'm aware there's a lot of emotions on this topic here. I'm hoping to not start a flamewar.
Personally, I think the Pre-Trib position is correct, and reflects the actual content of the verses best. One of the big points of disagreement is when people first believed which positions. I think quite a bit of MISinformation is out there, which bodes poorly for civil discussion but sadly is fairly common nowadays. I don't mind discussing this, but I don't want to ARGUE this.
I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.
David Jeremiah’s timeline is common among most evangelicals – and I favor that myself – I hope I’ll be in the pre-trib rapture group – and it makes a lot of sense in the Pauline letters. I’ve got a hard time reconciling it to John’s Apocalypse – especially the messages to the 7 churches – there’s a sense of urgency - preparing them for what’s ahead – why would that be necessary if they’re taken out of the world in rapture?
David Jeremiah has stated that the way things are escalating means we are getting closer to the end-times – but there’s various ways to slice and dice what compromises the end-times. I like to study the book of Revelation, but I have no dog in the fight because I’m not sure how I fit in. So I figure whatever happens – happens. Jesus Christ is my Lord and He’s running the show – so I’m not going to worry a whole lot about stuff I don’t know.
I was writing my reply to WordWolf's post when yours came. I've only been aware of the one timeline I heard in twi and as I've said, I haven't spent much time in the book of Revelations but I do better understand your first post on this thread.
I'm long overdue writing on this subject. If you're patient, I think I can serialize a bit over the next month or so, depending.
I am curious to see what the scriptures say but I'm hoping God kept it simple enough that we wouldn't miss what He has planned for us. Looking forward to hearing back from you.
In twi, many followers have cult-like leaders who tell them what they should constantly be doing.For a lot of people who were in the corps or lived or worked at headquarters, their lives were pretty much run all the time by top leadership.Some motivations for them to obey leaders could be: in order to get along or get by; for the wages; out of loyalty or because of a desire to please or climb the ladder to a higher position.
Thankfully the motivations to serve or help others while in twi can change after leaving and one is no longer under their control.I thought about this when reading Matthew 6 and I found it awesome as it relates to the hope.
Jesus gives two motivations for practicing righteousness such as giving to the needy, praying and fasting.One is to do them openly in order to be noticed by others and receive their praise as a reward and the other is to do them in secret where it’s just between you and the God you honor.For those who choose the latter, Jesus says they will be rewarded by God.
Jesus concludes with verses 19-21:“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
As I learned more about the hope, the more verse 21 stood out.In this context, “treasures” (being the things we find precious) are either on earth (the rewards that come from men) or are in heaven (the rewards that come from God).
Loving and helping others from the heart is in the same place as our treasure in heaven. They are both intrinsically connected!They go hand in hand like two peas in a pod or whatever other idiom you can think of that applies. When you do the first, you are reminded of the second.Or when you remember the second, you do the first.
So I can see better now that the reality and joy of the hope is realized every time we love and help others. Instead of the heaviness of heart I felt earlier, it's like on air! Thank God .
I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.
there’s no rule stating you can’t understand a passage more than one way.
So I can’t imagine why God would have inspired John to write a book that was only relevant…applicable thousands of years later…If I’m not mistaken Revelation is the only book in the Bible that carries the equivalent of a formal invocation of God’s blessedness, Revelation 1:3:
New Living Translation God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.
If you’ve read through all the hyperlinks I gave you will realize there’s not 100 % agreement on the interpretive process. I believe that’s a good thing. If everyone thinks alike, it might mean no one is truly thinking (notice my sentence fudges on what it means to think – I meant that) The Socratic is a group effort.
Ok this is not tremendously scholarly but I did get a chance to read the “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye. It is a kind of mostly fictional series of novels about the end times in the book of Revelation.
My perception of it was I enjoyed it and the authors did far less speculation on elements in the book than others do in non fiction. At any rate it was an entertaining read and worth it for perspective from my viewpoint.
So I can’t imagine why God would have inspired John to write a book that was only relevant…applicable thousands of years later…If I’m not mistaken Revelation is the only book in the Bible that carries the equivalent of a formal invocation of God’s blessedness, Revelation 1:3:
New Living Translation God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.
If you’ve read through all the hyperlinks I gave you will realize there’s not 100 % agreement on the interpretive process. I believe that’s a good thing. If everyone thinks alike, it might mean no one is truly thinking (notice my sentence fudges on what it means to think – I meant that) The Socratic is a group effort.
Thanks T-Bone. I'm curious about some of the ideas shared above so keeping them in mind, I'll begin by just reading Revelations over the weekend.
Thanks T-Bone. I'm curious about some of the ideas shared above so keeping them in mind, I'll begin by just reading Revelations over the weekend.
Cool – here’s a few hyperlinks to explain the 4 views – some of these are good at giving the pros and cons of each view…personally I think there’s a benefit to keeping all 4 views in mind when studying the book. It’s possible that’s the way God intended readers to consider certain passages – using our cognitive skills along with the ever intuitive Holy Spirit -and boom-shaka-laka we get blessed
know what’s one of the great things about reading the book of Revelation – or for that matter any book in the Bible? You have the freedom to think and choose a response. When it comes to the matters of our faith – we answer to no one but our Lord Jesus Christ...anyway here's a few links:
It’s possible that’s the way God intended readers to consider certain passages – using our cognitive skills along with the ever intuitive Holy Spirit -and boom-shaka-laka we get blessed
know what’s one of the great things about reading the book of Revelation – or for that matter any book in the Bible? You have the freedom to think and choose a response. When it comes to the matters of our faith – we answer to no one but our Lord Jesus Christ...anyway here's a few links:
I feel like I'm opening a can of worms here but here it goes anyway. A part of me agrees with what you said above, but another part of me thinks about what Jesus meant in John 8:31b-32, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” To double down on this there's John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
Interpretations of verses in the Bible are commonplace and by nature means understanding things differently or even in exact opposition to each other such as whether Jesus is God or not. Then you have the book of Revelation which is interpretation on steroids. What do we do with verses the speak of "the truth?"
Heres on that causes serious issues with the concept of the administration of Grace, and administrations in general relative to our hope.
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
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Charity
I was googling about Christ's return and saw 1 John 2: 28:
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
"Continue in him" is kind of hard to do when he is supposedly "absent." Previous verses in this chapter says,
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Keeping his commands is "proof" that we know Jesus and again this is kind of hard to do if he is absent in our lives. I'm going to try to change the title of this thread to "The Hope - Knowing Jesus" since this is how we can be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. Even though the title is the opposite of the Absent Christ title, a lot about knowing Jesus was shared in that thread. Hopefully, this thread will bring the two ideas together as 1 John talked about them.
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T-Bone
This post is all over the place – excuse the mess – enjoy my stream of consciousness.
Your post is relatable to me – it’s refreshing and healing to read about someone baring their soul.
I don’t mean to project my beliefs / feelings onto anyone else – because I often think of myself as damaged goods – in terms of my beliefs and cognitive skills post-TWI - as a cult survivor…So I appreciate your being honest and open.
Most of my work career I’ve been involved in various aspects of safety and security. Thinking what’s the worst case scenario for a living tends to build habits of preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake…last night I heard there have been 33 mass shootings in the US for 2023 – that’s 1.06 mass shootings per day!
I can only do so much. Our family is trying to adjust to the new normal. I get these morbid thoughts when I hear of a child or a teen being killed, murdered, in a tragic accident. I imagine if that was me dead at 16 – then some 54 years of my experiences, relationships, trials and errors, successes and failures never happened. Every so often my wife or I will see the other off on an errand – we always remind each other to be cautious and watch out – and along with that we may tack on a pensive farewell like it might be the last time we see each other. I can only imagine what the people of Ukraine have to deal with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. ( Matthew 24 )
And stuff seems like it’s getting worse…I remember the fears and worries in the aftermath of 9/11/2001. My wife and I were on vacation in California – the kids were home in Texas. I freaked out and had some fuzzy notion that the tribulation had started – and regretting I never studied the book of Revelation…or if that isn’t it…it’s the end of the world as I know it… All my wife and I were concerned about was getting home to be with the kids.
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Luke 13
Some of the things Jesus said are enigmatic – like this…The best I can figure out on these verses – and I could be way off – two ideas seem apparent:
1.Instead of looking where and to whom one should assign blame for a catastrophe, think about the day of judgement.
2.To me this also challenges the twisted moral superiority I used to hold onto while in TWI. As a general rule of thumb, I used to look down on anyone who suffered from misfortune or great catastrophe or tragedy – cuz they didn’t believe in God…or they weren’t standing on the rightly-divided Word and various other snobbish notions I had entertained…In my opinion the TWI-mindset has a way of making one unusually callous…insensitive to the needs of others.
~ ~ ~ ~
TWI had a sneaky way of using the hope to mislead, abuse and exploit others – it was either the carrot or the stick – reward and punishment:
1. wierwille taught being saved means you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going. This supports an unrestrained lifestyle. You can do whatever you want.
Amplified Bible
on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus…Romans 2:16...God will judge our motivations !!!!! nuff said
2.Heavenly rewards are for those who are faithful to The Way International. If you cop out or trip out you won’t get rewarded.
3. Encourages mooching. I remember this one branch coordinator who would mooch off everyone – and make like it was no big deal – and why should it be – Jesus Christ could come back at any moment.
4. When LCM became prez it seems like he ramped up the transitory attitude among TWI-followers. I remember in various way corps teachings, LCM’s usual push was – in one form or another – live to serve the ministry…burn yourself out for God…what do you need to own a home for? Our home is in heaven! Why be concerned about hoarding material goods, working toward retirement money, 401Ks? Jesus Christ could come back tomorrow! Quit whining about your need to sleep. You’ll get to sleep all you want in heaven!
5. wierwille’s ultra-dispensationalism turned a blind eye (his glass eye
) to the book of Revelation. It wasn’t until years after I left TWI – that I became interested in the last book of the Bible. Partly due to curiosity, partly due to the way I’m wired - remember what I said above – being worrisome over worst case scenarios, preparing for different situations and determining what’s most important to protect for continuity’s sake. Not that I figured out much of it – but there is a blessing that’s associated with those who read it and respond in obedience:
New International Version
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near…Revelation 1:3
“Time is near” can refer to an epoch, period, or season. The book of Revelation is both prediction and proclamation – foretelling future events and preaching about who God is and what He will do. Thus hope is based on God’s character and promises…I find that in studying Revelation I’m getting to know God better and my trust in Him is strengthened.
It’s a good thing to think about others and how we could be of service to them. What if the time of great tribulation happens soon and I’m in the thick of it? I don’t want to freak out – I’d like to help out others if I could.
Edited by T-BoneGrammar rammar ding dong
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Charity
Thanks for sharing your interest and thoughts. I'm not sure if my reply will address any of your concerns above, but here is what I'm thinking. Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:5-7 about wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places have been happening since the time Jesus spoke these wars right up to today. It's all horrible, horrible things that people have had to live through. It's also very concerning what the next day, week, month, year...might bring.
When will all the pain and suffering stop for us and all of our future generations? The epistles encourage us to look forward to the time of Christ's return for his church. It's the hope we've been given. It is meant to strengthen us as we deal with whatever comes our way in life. Just as I'm sitting here writing this, I remember how excited I get thinking that my autistic grandson will one day receive a new body or I'll get to see my parents again. The biggest joy of them all is seeing Christ for the very first time.
But then the doubt sets in. Is any of it true - will the return really happen?
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chockfull
I feel like hope is supposed to be encouraging and uplifting and a source of strength in a time of trouble.
This song by one of my favorite bands - brothers - really inspires me like that. Hope is a personification in the lyrics.
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Charity
I really like the song Chockfull - it is inspiring, especially the chorus. It makes me think again of the quote I shared in my opening post.
"However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.”
Maybe a lack of enthusiasm or faith in the hope is because of not hearing enough or reading enough about it. Maybe it's finding a church that is alive because of their hope in Christ's coming to gather us together to meet him in the air. Maybe it's growing closer to Christ that makes his return more real. All I know for sure is that the importance of it for believers is a big deal in scripture.
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T-Bone
I grew up in a Christian home with a loving family. I have believed in the existence of God ever since I can remember. This is one of my core beliefs. Along with that another core belief was always have faith in the Bible as the very Word of God. Life happens and sometimes we are challenged to reexamine our ‘philosophy’…our worldview. Raised in Roman Catholicism, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., astral projection, joined a cult with a fundamentalism/spiritualism/Gnosticism basis – and after 12 years of involvement with The Way International – overwhelmed with frustration…disappointment…disenchantment I again reevaluated my core values – they’re ‘fuzzier’ …not so clearly defined – not wierwille’s little God-in-a-box nor his catechism of the Bible.
The book of Revelation has often been interpreted various ways throughout the church’s history – four of the most notable are: futuristic, preterist view, ideal/allegorically, and a broad view of history - see Book of Revelation - Wikipedia.
Did the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century believers ever wonder when their hope would be realized?
What if it’s another thousand years from now?
I’d rather not lock myself into the way I think things should happen and when - because that has screwed me up before.
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WordWolf
Here are some of my thoughts on the topic. If they're of some use to you, great.
lcm was big on using Christ's return as a bludgeon to get people to take more twi classes and serve twi more. (At the end of AotS, his exhortations stopped at Twig coordinator and Advanced Class grad, as if anyone who didn't at least qualify for one or the other didn't count.) He also focused on getting more rewards when Jesus returns- as if that's a healthy reason to look forward to it. I'm looking forward to it regardless of titles, rewards, etc. Partly, I want to get together with Christians I haven't seen in a long time, or ones I've always wanted to meet (especially George Mueller.) Inasmuch as it's possible, the 2nd Tuesday after, I'm interested in hosting a barbecue, wherever we are. This whole "focus on grades" thing just doesn't move me.
Does it seem farfetched to me?
I guess that's the best question. Yes, it seems farfetched to me. Should I believe it anyway? Well, as I see it, if I believe the Bible, then yes. Should I believe the Bible that includes some farfetched things? As I see it, yes. If it's farfetched, why should I? Well, some things I can't prove or disprove, and become matters of faith. Should I have faith that they are true? That goes to the things that I CAN prove or disprove. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If I am to believe the Bible, then I'm going to need sufficient proof. (Long ago, when I was a Bible SCOFFER, it would have taken some exceptional proof to even get me to CONSIDER whether or not the Bible was correct. I did consider- which says more than a little. You don't see a guy for 2 months, and when you see him again, he's gone from Bible MOCKER to Bible QUOTER and holding it forth? What happened that Summer?)
When it comes to believing the Bible, I think-to me- it comes down to getting incredibly specific answers to prayer- answers that could not POSSIBLY be due to coincidences, timing, involvement of other humans, etc. In twi, too many people lauded "Kojacking" (getting a great parking spot rapidly) as a big deal. If that's the standard, you won't convince me it could not be coincidences and timing. For that matter, it wouldn't be the performances of alleged "faith healers" that would convince me, either. I was interested in stage magic since I was small, and I'm well aware how most stunts of supposed "faith healing" works- like transferring evil to an egg, etc, all through sleight-of-hand and stage magic skills.
So, for me, sufficient proof has been provided, beyond a reasonable doubt, on multiple occasions. So, I believe what I can "test" holds up- which means I believe the foundation for it.
I've been aware for decades that a lot of Christians have a deep faith despite never seeing anything truly remarkable, incredible, etc. I'm sure they believe, I still don't know how they believe. I was taught like that as a kid, and as a teen I walked away from it because there was nothing to convince me any of it was true other than "because I say so." Had there been nothing to see, I wouldn't be a Christian now, because I stopped being a Christian then. So, part of me is amazed some people believe that deeply without something obvious at some point.
How does it affect my life? I'm sure it doesn't affect it as much as it should. I do still mention it when discussing plans for the coming week and so on, and I look forward to it, whenever it happens. At one point, I was convinced it would probably happen within a few years- but I only told maybe 3 people and made it clear it was my opinion, what I thought. Obviously, I was wrong, but that happens. I certainly take some comfort that it WILL happen regardless of WHEN it will happen. In short, I am confident it will happen, and I don't doubt it will happen. It probably should affect my life more, but I try to serve God and I'm not going to pretend I do a fantastic job. God knew who He was calling when He did it, so I know He's not expecting the amazing out of me every 3rd Wednesday or something. I make a difference here and there, and freely acknowledge that it's not about me at all, but about God Almighty. If Jesus wants something specific from me otherwise, he knows where to find me, and how to convince me it's him or his messenger quickly.
I'm not sure I answered your questions, but I hope I made a difference somewhere in there.
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Charity
I feel similar to WordWolf about receiving heavenly rewards – our service becomes more “me-centered” than “other-centered.” Instead, love feels more of a genuine motivation to reach out and help others.
In trying to understand God’s reasons then for giving rewards (not lcm’s or twi’s reasons), I looked at some scriptures this morning. So far, the receipt of rewards seems to fall under 2 categories: 1) for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ, and 2) for standing during persecution.
I think God is telling us that if we are willing to serve to do so lovingly and keep the focus on Christ as well as God. Not only are there benefits now but there are also His rewards for having had the right heart. The other reason concerns the difficulty of facing persecution and to help us persevere during these times, God reminds us there will be rewards awaiting us. Both of these reasons help me to feel more comfortable about the topic of rewards.
Below are the scriptures I looked at should you want to read them
_________________________________________________________________
.
CATEGORY #1 (for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ.)
1 Thess 2:7-12; 19-20 Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.
19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy.
1 Cor 3:8-15 (context is believers choosing which leader they will follow)
8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Cor 4:1-5 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
1 Peter 5:1-4 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
CATEGORY #2 (for standing during persecution)
Hebrews 12:1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
1 Cor 15:30-32; 58 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
2 John 1:7-8 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
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OldSkool
It helps to keep 2 Peter in mind in this context as well.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Charity
Stumbled upon this when I was looking for verses on rewards this morning - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I guess my five-senses mind needs a spiritual awakening in order to realize this truth - which brings up the spirit of truth again. Jesus called him the "helper" in (John 14:26) and said he would "glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." (John 16:14)
1 Cor 15:12-19
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
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Charity
How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance.
I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins?
I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.
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WordWolf
There's lots of positions about "the Tribulation." Skipping all the "I don't believe the Bible" positions, you still have a bunch. There's amillenialism, which says there will be NO Tribulation, no Rapture, no Millenial Reign, etc. Everything in Revelation EXCLUSIVELY referred to events contemporary to the writing. There's Post-Millenial, which puts The Rapture and the First Resurrection as the same basic event as as the same Judgement. There's the Mid-Tribulation Position, which puts The Rapture at the 3 1/2 years mark, putting it right before " The Great Tribulation". There's the Pre-Tribulation position, which holds that The Rapture (aka "the Gathering Together" or " our Blessed Hope") happens right before The Tribulation.
I'm aware there's a lot of emotions on this topic here. I'm hoping to not start a flamewar.
Personally, I think the Pre-Trib position is correct, and reflects the actual content of the verses best. One of the big points of disagreement is when people first believed which positions. I think quite a bit of MISinformation is out there, which bodes poorly for civil discussion but sadly is fairly common nowadays. I don't mind discussing this, but I don't want to ARGUE this.
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T-Bone
David Jeremiah’s timeline is common among most evangelicals – and I favor that myself – I hope I’ll be in the pre-trib rapture group – and it makes a lot of sense in the Pauline letters. I’ve got a hard time reconciling it to John’s Apocalypse – especially the messages to the 7 churches – there’s a sense of urgency - preparing them for what’s ahead – why would that be necessary if they’re taken out of the world in rapture?
David Jeremiah has stated that the way things are escalating means we are getting closer to the end-times – but there’s various ways to slice and dice what compromises the end-times. I like to study the book of Revelation, but I have no dog in the fight because I’m not sure how I fit in. So I figure whatever happens – happens. Jesus Christ is my Lord and He’s running the show – so I’m not going to worry a whole lot about stuff I don’t know.
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Charity
I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.
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Charity
I was writing my reply to WordWolf's post when yours came. I've only been aware of the one timeline I heard in twi and as I've said, I haven't spent much time in the book of Revelations but I do better understand your first post on this thread.
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WordWolf
I'm long overdue writing on this subject. If you're patient, I think I can serialize a bit over the next month or so, depending.
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Charity
I am curious to see what the scriptures say but I'm hoping God kept it simple enough that we wouldn't miss what He has planned for us. Looking forward to hearing back from you.
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Charity
In twi, many followers have cult-like leaders who tell them what they should constantly be doing. For a lot of people who were in the corps or lived or worked at headquarters, their lives were pretty much run all the time by top leadership. Some motivations for them to obey leaders could be: in order to get along or get by; for the wages; out of loyalty or because of a desire to please or climb the ladder to a higher position.
Thankfully the motivations to serve or help others while in twi can change after leaving and one is no longer under their control. I thought about this when reading Matthew 6 and I found it awesome as it relates to the hope.
Jesus gives two motivations for practicing righteousness such as giving to the needy, praying and fasting. One is to do them openly in order to be noticed by others and receive their praise as a reward and the other is to do them in secret where it’s just between you and the God you honor. For those who choose the latter, Jesus says they will be rewarded by God.
Jesus concludes with verses 19-21: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
As I learned more about the hope, the more verse 21 stood out. In this context, “treasures” (being the things we find precious) are either on earth (the rewards that come from men) or are in heaven (the rewards that come from God).
Loving and helping others from the heart is in the same place as our treasure in heaven. They are both intrinsically connected! They go hand in hand like two peas in a pod or whatever other idiom you can think of that applies. When you do the first, you are reminded of the second. Or when you remember the second, you do the first.
So I can see better now that the reality and joy of the hope is realized every time we love and help others. Instead of the heaviness of heart I felt earlier, it's like
on air! Thank God 
.
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T-Bone
there’s no rule stating you can’t understand a passage more than one way.
Most scholars date the book of Revelation at about 95 AD ( see Dating the Bible - Wikipedia )
So I can’t imagine why God would have inspired John to write a book that was only relevant…applicable thousands of years later…If I’m not mistaken Revelation is the only book in the Bible that carries the equivalent of a formal invocation of God’s blessedness, Revelation 1:3:
New Living Translation
God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.
~ ~ ~ ~
Some other things to think about: The predictive element in Scripture is multifaceted. Sometimes prophets foretold an event that had both an immediate and long-range application. See Dual fulfillment - Wikipedia , Three Applications of Scripture — LFF (lffellowship.com) . For a communication from God to be ‘on message’, logic would dictate that God’s words would not contradict His nature, His methods and what He has already said elsewhere. However, the message might have several significant points or central themes – especially ones that have social, political, moral, or theological significance – which gets into double meanings, multiple meanings and deeper meanings. See Do Bible verses have multiple meanings? (knowing-jesus.com) , Does a Bible verse carry more than one meaning? | Christian Forums , and Inductive Bible Study: Interpretation | Precept Austin
~ ~ ~ ~
If you’ve read through all the hyperlinks I gave you will realize there’s not 100 % agreement on the interpretive process. I believe that’s a good thing. If everyone thinks alike, it might mean no one is truly thinking (notice my sentence fudges on what it means to think – I meant that
) The Socratic is a group effort.
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chockfull
Ok this is not tremendously scholarly but I did get a chance to read the “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye. It is a kind of mostly fictional series of novels about the end times in the book of Revelation.
My perception of it was I enjoyed it and the authors did far less speculation on elements in the book than others do in non fiction. At any rate it was an entertaining read and worth it for perspective from my viewpoint.
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Charity
Thanks T-Bone. I'm curious about some of the ideas shared above so keeping them in mind, I'll begin by just reading Revelations over the weekend.
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T-Bone
Cool – here’s a few hyperlinks to explain the 4 views – some of these are good at giving the pros and cons of each view…personally I think there’s a benefit to keeping all 4 views in mind when studying the book. It’s possible that’s the way God intended readers to consider certain passages – using our cognitive skills along with the ever intuitive Holy Spirit
- and boom-shaka-laka we get blessed 
know what’s one of the great things about reading the book of Revelation – or for that matter any book in the Bible? You have the freedom to think and choose a response. When it comes to the matters of our faith – we answer to no one but our Lord Jesus Christ...anyway here's a few links:
4 Interpretations Concerning the Book of Revelation - Bellator Christi
The Four Views of Revelation (tmumc.org)
4 Views of Revelation - Steve Gregg · Christianity Without the Religion/Plain Truth Ministries (ptm.org)
Four Views of Revelation (probe.org)
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Charity
I feel like I'm opening a can of worms here but here it goes anyway. A part of me agrees with what you said above, but another part of me thinks about what Jesus meant in John 8:31b-32, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” To double down on this there's John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
Interpretations of verses in the Bible are commonplace and by nature means understanding things differently or even in exact opposition to each other such as whether Jesus is God or not. Then you have the book of Revelation which is interpretation on steroids. What do we do with verses the speak of "the truth?"
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OldSkool
Heres on that causes serious issues with the concept of the administration of Grace, and administrations in general relative to our hope.
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
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