Interesting discussion. The 2 Peter section is so highly used in PFAL that I am finding distance from that doctrine helpful in sorting things out.
From a 15,000 foot level it seems that Peter is working to establish the value of spoken and written revelation when compared to their eyewitness accounts.
Practically in the first century they all would have had to make that transition. From Jesus being with them and constantly correcting them and upgrading their logic to now disciplining the mind to scriptures or writings of revelation doing that.
This was the first century Gutenberg press. From experience to writing.
So a trust level has to be established in written revelation.
But what level is appropriate? The fundamentalists take it down to the jot and tittle level causing plenty of problems. Most of the problems were already in living color in the form of Pharisees and scribes and Sadducees. So Jesus teaching and confrontations of those groups are key to achieving the proper balance.
I have come full circle to the more simple viewpoint that Peter is just teaching to trust scripture like you would if you saw the events personally. Because you need the encouragement. A written guide is less impactful than a personal interaction.
I disagree with VPWs “gift ministry” teachings. The fruit I see of that teaching is a bunch of egotistical idolators with VPW statues on their desks all saying “look at me and my importance”.
I think that section of scripture speaks of service to others in the body not magnifying your ego with an extra special title and recognition of importance. Nobody is more special in the body of Christ than any other. That is why the whole Way tree hierarchy is another Tower of Babel. It is a pyramid scheme focused on bringing blessings to the top, however well whitewashed and hidden they are.
So apostles and prophets just serve people. A lot of that service in the first century supported the transition from spoken revelation to the written scripture. They helped. They don’t need statues nor would want them.
What is the “completely reliable prophetic message” mentioned in 2 Peter 1:19?
“Also” means in addition to. So if verse 19 wasn’t written to replace Peter’s eye-witnessed account, then why was it written?What does the “prophetic message” mean? To what is the prophetic message in this verse referring?Why is it a sure word of prophecy as written in the KJV?
Hi Charity,
I'm coming at this from a preterist or past fulfillment perspective. It's not 100% clear exactly which coming of Jesus Peter was referring to but I'm leaning toward the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24). It would take a book to explain in detail why I see Matthew 24 as a reference to the destruction of Judea and the temple during the Roman siege from 66-70AD. I will try to give you as brief an explanation as possible.
There are 2 or 3 preterists on GSC, myself being one of them. We see the eschatological prophecies such as Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Daniel 12 and most of the book of Revelation as happening in our past but was future to Jesus' audience when he gave them the prophecy.
We take the very confusing time references to really mean closeness of time not thousands of years into the future. Here is an example: James 5:8 states - You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Some translations use the phrase "at hand" and futurists sometimes put an amazingly long arm on James to explain that "near" in this verse doesn't really mean a short period of time. Since we have an English translation it is usually wise to look up the Greek words of certain verses especially if there is some confusion. "Near" in James 5:8 was translated from the Greek eggizó. It really does mean near in time not thousands of years into the future.. https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm .
Another one is Revelation 1:1 & 1:3 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near. "Near" in Rev 1:3 comes from "eggus" which means near in place or time https://biblehub.com/greek/1451.htm .
Daniel is given a prophecy that in chapter 12 describes the power of his people(Israel) being totally destroyed. Daniel is told that the prophecy would be sealed up until the time of the end because it wouldn't be fulfilled in his lifetime. In Revelation 22:10 John is told to“Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
So to make a long story short, I think the coming that Peter was referring to was the destruction of the Herodian Temple in 70AD . The destruction of 70AD was not Christ's return to earth at the end of human history. This coming was a judgement coming. Isaiah uses similar language in chapter 19: A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
It was the end of animal sacrifices...the finality of the old covenant. BTW, the old covenant and the new covenant co-existed for approximately 40 years. This is apparent when Jesus said For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. If Jesus literally meant that the Mosaic law would be in effect until the end of human history (Great White Throne) then we got a real problem. Heaven and Earth to first century Jewish people was a reference to the Temple: https://www.reenactingtheway.com/blog/when-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-everything-changed879420187179853150181
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Raf
Fair enough, OldSkool. I won't beat the dead horse. We all know where I'm coming from.
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chockfull
Interesting discussion. The 2 Peter section is so highly used in PFAL that I am finding distance from that doctrine helpful in sorting things out.
From a 15,000 foot level it seems that Peter is working to establish the value of spoken and written revelation when compared to their eyewitness accounts.
Practically in the first century they all would have had to make that transition. From Jesus being with them and constantly correcting them and upgrading their logic to now disciplining the mind to scriptures or writings of revelation doing that.
This was the first century Gutenberg press. From experience to writing.
So a trust level has to be established in written revelation.
But what level is appropriate? The fundamentalists take it down to the jot and tittle level causing plenty of problems. Most of the problems were already in living color in the form of Pharisees and scribes and Sadducees. So Jesus teaching and confrontations of those groups are key to achieving the proper balance.
I have come full circle to the more simple viewpoint that Peter is just teaching to trust scripture like you would if you saw the events personally. Because you need the encouragement. A written guide is less impactful than a personal interaction.
I disagree with VPWs “gift ministry” teachings. The fruit I see of that teaching is a bunch of egotistical idolators with VPW statues on their desks all saying “look at me and my importance”.
I think that section of scripture speaks of service to others in the body not magnifying your ego with an extra special title and recognition of importance. Nobody is more special in the body of Christ than any other. That is why the whole Way tree hierarchy is another Tower of Babel. It is a pyramid scheme focused on bringing blessings to the top, however well whitewashed and hidden they are.
So apostles and prophets just serve people. A lot of that service in the first century supported the transition from spoken revelation to the written scripture. They helped. They don’t need statues nor would want them.
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Exidor
Hi Charity,
I'm coming at this from a preterist or past fulfillment perspective. It's not 100% clear exactly which coming of Jesus Peter was referring to but I'm leaning toward the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24). It would take a book to explain in detail why I see Matthew 24 as a reference to the destruction of Judea and the temple during the Roman siege from 66-70AD. I will try to give you as brief an explanation as possible.
There are 2 or 3 preterists on GSC, myself being one of them. We see the eschatological prophecies such as Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Daniel 12 and most of the book of Revelation as happening in our past but was future to Jesus' audience when he gave them the prophecy.
We take the very confusing time references to really mean closeness of time not thousands of years into the future. Here is an example: James 5:8 states - You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Some translations use the phrase "at hand" and futurists sometimes put an amazingly long arm on James to explain that "near" in this verse doesn't really mean a short period of time. Since we have an English translation it is usually wise to look up the Greek words of certain verses especially if there is some confusion. "Near" in James 5:8 was translated from the Greek eggizó. It really does mean near in time not thousands of years into the future.. https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm .
Another one is Revelation 1:1 & 1:3 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near. "Near" in Rev 1:3 comes from "eggus" which means near in place or time https://biblehub.com/greek/1451.htm .
Daniel is given a prophecy that in chapter 12 describes the power of his people(Israel) being totally destroyed. Daniel is told that the prophecy would be sealed up until the time of the end because it wouldn't be fulfilled in his lifetime. In Revelation 22:10 John is told to “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
So to make a long story short, I think the coming that Peter was referring to was the destruction of the Herodian Temple in 70AD . The destruction of 70AD was not Christ's return to earth at the end of human history. This coming was a judgement coming. Isaiah uses similar language in chapter 19: A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
It was the end of animal sacrifices...the finality of the old covenant. BTW, the old covenant and the new covenant co-existed for approximately 40 years. This is apparent when Jesus said For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. If Jesus literally meant that the Mosaic law would be in effect until the end of human history (Great White Throne) then we got a real problem. Heaven and Earth to first century Jewish people was a reference to the Temple: https://www.reenactingtheway.com/blog/when-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-everything-changed879420187179853150181
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