I think you’ve got the right idea on II Peter 1:19 – emphasizing Scripture over Peter remembering an experience. You’re in good company cuz I looked the passage up in my MacArthur study Bible – which uses the NASB. I thought his comments may be helpful – which I’ve quoted below this portion of II Peter 1 from NASB:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a [j]declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is [k]My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this [l]declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture [m]becomes a matter of [n]someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
I think you’ve got the right idea on II Peter 1:19 – emphasizing Scripture over Peter remembering an experience. You’re in good company cuz I looked the passage up in my MacArthur study Bible – which uses the NASB. I thought his comments may be helpful – which I’ve quoted below this portion of II Peter 1 from NASB:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a [j]declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is [k]My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this [l]declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture [m]becomes a matter of [n]someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
Its really interesting to string the accounts of the transfiguration together with 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation chapter 1. The accounts in the gospels foreshadow the glory that God would bestow upon Jesus Christ, 2 Peter confirm that the glory and honor bestowed on Jesus Christ was from God himself, and Revelation 1 gives a glimpse of that glory and what our Lord has been changed into. (He is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit. So it is written [in Scripture], “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life])
Its quite eyeopening that scripture says in 1 John that we shall see him as he is and that we will be like him after we are gathered. Oh---hehe...all three acounts and the account in Peter show a very plain record of God audibly speaking to flesh and blood from a cloud...something wierwille said God could not do.
Matthew 17:1,2
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mark Chapter 9:2,3
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Luke 9:28,29
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
2 Peter 1:17,18
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Revelation 1:11-16
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
I think you’ve got the right idea on II Peter 1:19 – emphasizing Scripture over Peter remembering an experience. You’re in good company cuz I looked the passage up in my MacArthur study Bible – which uses the NASB. I thought his comments may be helpful – which I’ve quoted below this portion of II Peter 1 from NASB:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a [j]declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is [k]My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this [l]declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture [m]becomes a matter of [n]someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
I think you’ve got the right idea on II Peter 1:19 – emphasizing Scripture over Peter remembering an experience. You’re in good company cuz I looked the passage up in my MacArthur study Bible – which uses the NASB. I thought his comments may be helpful – which I’ve quoted below this portion of II Peter 1 from NASB:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a [j]declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is [k]My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this [l]declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture [m]becomes a matter of [n]someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
It doesn't say "second" coming. The coming of Christ, revelation of Christ and other phrases are used to describe a more sure word of prophecy.
Hi cman, nice to meet you.
You're right, the verse doesn't say "second" coming. I based that assumption on what I read in the following commentaries on this verse found on Bible Hub. How do you understand "we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," as describing a more sure word of prophecy.
The power and coming - These two words refer to the same thing; and the meaning is, his "powerful coming," or his "coming in power." The advent of the Saviour is commonly represented as connected with the exhibition of power. Matthew 24:30, "coming in the clouds of heaven, with power." The "power" evinced will be by raising the dead; summoning the world to judgment; determining the destiny of men, etc.
The power and coming.—The power conferred upon Christ after being glorified in His passion and resurrection, and his coming again to judgment. (Comp. 2Peter 3:4; Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:27; 1Corinthians 15:23; &c., &c., where the same Greek word is used.) In this power He will come again. His first coming at the Incarnation would neither be the usual meaning of the word nor would suit the context.
the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ] The “coming,” here, as in every other passage of the New Testament in which the word occurs, is the Second Advent, not the first. The mind of the Apostle goes back to what he had witnessed in the glory of the Transfiguration, as the pledge and earnest of that which was afterwards to be revealed.
Addressing your question required reading the chapter, so I did. :) Here's the relevant verses in the NASB, to be followed with my answer to your questions, based on my reading of the relevant verses.
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II Peter 1: 16-19 (NASB)
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased "- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
====================================Verse 16 points out the contrast between "cleverly-devised tales" about power and the Lord Jesus Christ's personal presence, and actual eyewitness accounts of the authority of Jesus. Peter and the others were eyewitnesses and reported what they saw and heard directly. They didn't pass along tall tales, legends, myths, etc.
Verse 17 brings up the Mount of Transfiguration incident, where the eyewitnesses saw Jesus in conference with Moses and Elijah (IMHO, one heck of a vision brought by God) followed immediately by The Voice of God in the heavens, when He declared that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well-pleased."
Verse 18 reiterates that they were eyewitnesses- they were there and saw the guys, they heard the Voice from the heavens. They didn't get a verbal report from someone else, or read that it happened- they were physically there, and physically experienced the moments as they happened.
Verse 19 draws an obvious conclusion from all that. It's one thing to believe or disbelieve, but Peter's not going to doubt who Jesus is- because Peter was there when God Almighty confirmed- directly and in the 5 senses and with no confusion- that Jesus was the well-pleasing beloved Son of God Almighty- as reported to them by God Almighty, who would know. They knew it was God Almighty telling them this because only God Almighty can deliver messages in that manner, and nobody else can make the heavens rumble when he speaks like that. So, to Peter, the Scriptures of which he speaks are confirmed by God Almighty Himself. so Peter has no reason to doubt their authority. It's like God Almighty showed up and notarized them on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Keeping all of that in mind, Peter's saying to heed "the prophetic word' because it's been confirmed definitively, and will be effective in their hearts, so they should continue with it.
This raised the obvious question- what did Peter mean by "the prophetic word"?
II Peter 1: 20-2120 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
==========================
I believe Peter was speaking of Scripture as a whole, as much of it as he knew, as "the prophetic word".
In the NIV, II Peter 1:20-21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
========================
In explaining these verses, vpw read Bullinger's explanation and seemed to be unable to understand it. vpw read Bullinger's explanation and claimed this meant that we shouldn't try to interpret/explain Scripture like I'm doing now, because it came from God. Bullinger didn't say that, vpw flubbed his prepositions, and thus the whole point of 1:20. Bullinger said- and the NIV agrees as do I- that this addresses the ORIGIN of Scripture, that it was not by the Prophet deciding what to write, but rather that the prophets spoke the words spoken from God via the Holy Spirit.
So, if Bullinger and I and the NIV are correct, it looks like the "word of prophecy" was addressing God's Scripture as a whole.
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
I'm thinking the opposite - that the prophetic word of the Old Testament in verse 19 confirms what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:16 and what he has been saying throughout the context of 1 and 2 Peter.
Looking previously at 1 Peter 1, in verse 3, “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” verse 5, “or a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,” verse 7, “may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ,” and verse 13, “the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”Finally, in 1 Peter 4:13, “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that at the revelation of His glory you may also rejoice and be overjoyed.”
Next, looking after is 2 Peter 3 verses 3 & 4, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” In verses 8-10, Peter answers what these mockers said, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” Finally, there are verses 14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
1 Peter 1:16 is in the middle and as I understand it, is still on the topic of the second coming, “16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”
Its really interesting to string the accounts of the transfiguration together with 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation chapter 1. The accounts in the gospels foreshadow the glory that God would bestow upon Jesus Christ, 2 Peter confirm that the glory and honor bestowed on Jesus Christ was from God himself, and Revelation 1 gives a glimpse of that glory and what our Lord has been changed into. (He is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit. So it is written [in Scripture], “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life])
Its quite eyeopening that scripture says in 1 John that we shall see him as he is and that we will be like him after we are gathered. Oh---hehe...all three acounts and the account in Peter show a very plain record of God audibly speaking to flesh and blood from a cloud...something wierwille said God could not do.
Matthew 17:1,2
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mark Chapter 9:2,3
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Luke 9:28,29
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
2 Peter 1:17,18
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Revelation 1:11-16
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Hi OldSkool,
I have never spent much time looking at the record of Jesus’ transfiguration in the 3 gospels.I now find it to be very inspiring.The time for Jesus to be arrested, mocked, tortured and crucified was getting closer.He knows from Old Testament scripture just how bad it is going to be for him.Then you read about this miraculous way of God showing his deep love for His son in wanting to prepare him for what’s ahead.I think Jesus, who was a human like us, must have had his mind blown (was deeply affected) when he experienced how His father was showing him the future glory he would be given and, oh yes, I'm sure he was also comforted and strengthened (smile).
Questions about 1 Peter 1:16, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”What is your understanding of “when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this verse?Who are the “we”?Was the “making known” referring to verbal telling(s) or previous scriptures the believers had received or both?I know at the time Peter wrote 1 & 2 Peter, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke as well as Paul’s epistleshad been already been written.
Actually, that reminds me of Peter referring to Paul in 2 Peter 3:14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
The "second coming." is a cunningly devised fable. However, the coming of the Lord is talking about something they experienced and were encouraged to continue in.
The "second coming." is a cunningly devised fable. However, the coming of the Lord is talking about something they experienced and were encouraged to continue in.
I disagree that the "second coming" was either a fable or cunningly-devised. I'm aware there's different schools of thought on the subject- amillenialism, etc. I'm not planning on badmouthing those positions nor their adherents, since I can't see that helping anyone. My fellow Christians with whom I disagree doubtless feel just as strongly about their positions as I do. If I present a case for my position, that's one thing. But otherwise, I don't see the point.
Questions about 1 Peter 1:16, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”What is your understanding of “when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this verse?Who are the “we”?Was the “making known” referring to verbal telling(s) or previous scriptures the believers had received or both?I know at the time Peter wrote 1 & 2 Peter, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke as well as Paul’s epistleshad been already been written.
2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Judging from the context (my point of view is not all encompassing) I would say he is referring to the group of Apostles who were with Jesus during his ministry to Israel as well as the later addition of Paul. Given the context is saying we have not cunningly devised fables because that is exactly what the religous leaders all across the synagogues accused them of. They said that Jesus disciples stole away his body by night for example: It would be fair to speculate that this was not the only lie told against the apostles to make the apostles appear as liars.
They made known the power and coming of Jesus Christ is referring to Jesus coming to Israel and then being rejected by his own. Yet they made Jesus Christ known through signs miracles and wonders as recorded in the book of Acts. Again, I think it's a fair assumpumption to speculate that the apostles did much more than recorded in Acts, where Acts is a summation and really just the tip of the ice berg. God revealed to Peter and the others at the transfiguration Jesus Christs true majesty, that same majesty he is clothed in to this very day.
So the made known happened in quite a few ways as you noted several. They preached in the temples and synagogues and really wherever they went. They circulated epistles as they were revealed by Jesus Christ to his apostles. They had the Old Testament that pointed to the coming Messiah where Peter and the others literally reasoned amongst in the synagugues that this Jesus is the long awaited Messiah. Their witness is still reverberating to this very day.
Sorry, now sure how WordWolf's reply became part of my response to T-Bone so I have deleted it.
21 hours ago, T-Bone said:
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
I agree with what you wrote, “The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone.”But I don’t think it applies to verse 16-18 (imo) for 2 reasons:
1) By the time Peter writes these verses, Matthew, Mark and Luke had been written so his experience was already part of scripture.How could Peter’s verse 19 mean he is ranking Scripture over his experience when his experience is part of Scripture?
2)There was nothing wrong with Peter’s memory as others have said is the reason he wrote verse 19.What he shared about the transfiguration in verses 16-18 did not contradict what the 3 Gospels said about the event.
Regarding verse 19, I agree with you that "The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah.”
So does the context of verse 19 support the idea that Peter was pointing out to the believers how the completely reliable prophetic word would therefore confirm what Peter and the others were telling them about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty?It was not a cunningly devised fable.
1) By the time Peter writes these verses, Matthew, Mark and Luke had been written so his experience was already part of scripture.How could Peter’s verse 19 mean he is ranking Scripture over his experience when his experience is part of Scripture?
Peter’s experience is a ‘matter of record’ as well as anything else recorded in Scripture – like in the gospels, Acts, letters to the churches and individuals…In that sense – yes, Peter is not ranking Scripture over his experience – since his experiences are evidence offered up to support the case for God-breathed Scripture.
But on the other hand, I also get the idea we should not look for similar experiences to authenticate the Word of God. I read II Peter 1:16 and now what usually comes to mind is how wierwille fabricated a bunch of stories – like the 1942 audible promise of God to him, and other embellished and fictitious anecdotes – to establish a cult following him and his ‘legendary’ experiences.
Amplified Bible For we did not follow cleverly devised stories or myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty [His grandeur, His authority, His sovereignty]…II Peter 1:16
I can only speak for myself in saying that what sold me on wierwille as the real deal – as the man of God to explain Scripture - was reading about his experiences in The Way: Living in Love…So, to reiterate what I said earlier I should have made the study of Scripture a top priority (and specifically for me, even heeded all the warnings about false teachers and the criteria for discernment) instead of being impressed by wierwille’s deceptive façade.
But on the other hand, I also get the idea we should not look for similar experiences to authenticate the Word of God. I read II Peter 1:16 and now what usually comes to mind is how wierwille fabricated a bunch of stories – like the 1942 audible promise of God to him, and other embellished and fictitious anecdotes – to establish a cult following him and his ‘legendary’ experiences.
I agree so much as said experiences aren't verifiable. If you say you healed a man then I should be able to talk to that man about the healing, logistical issues aside. There was a very open pattern in the gospels and Acts where healings, miracles and such happened publicly and were verifiable, heck dang nearly indisputable. Wierwille lacks such witness.
Addressing your question required reading the chapter, so I did. :) Here's the relevant verses in the NASB, to be followed with my answer to your questions, based on my reading of the relevant verses.
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II Peter 1: 16-19 (NASB)
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased "- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
====================================Verse 16 points out the contrast between "cleverly-devised tales" about power and the Lord Jesus Christ's personal presence, and actual eyewitness accounts of the authority of Jesus. Peter and the others were eyewitnesses and reported what they saw and heard directly. They didn't pass along tall tales, legends, myths, etc.
Verse 17 brings up the Mount of Transfiguration incident, where the eyewitnesses saw Jesus in conference with Moses and Elijah (IMHO, one heck of a vision brought by God) followed immediately by The Voice of God in the heavens, when He declared that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well-pleased."
Verse 18 reiterates that they were eyewitnesses- they were there and saw the guys, they heard the Voice from the heavens. They didn't get a verbal report from someone else, or read that it happened- they were physically there, and physically experienced the moments as they happened.
Verse 19 draws an obvious conclusion from all that. It's one thing to believe or disbelieve, but Peter's not going to doubt who Jesus is- because Peter was there when God Almighty confirmed- directly and in the 5 senses and with no confusion- that Jesus was the well-pleasing beloved Son of God Almighty- as reported to them by God Almighty, who would know. They knew it was God Almighty telling them this because only God Almighty can deliver messages in that manner, and nobody else can make the heavens rumble when he speaks like that. So, to Peter, the Scriptures of which he speaks are confirmed by God Almighty Himself. so Peter has no reason to doubt their authority. It's like God Almighty showed up and notarized them on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Keeping all of that in mind, Peter's saying to heed "the prophetic word' because it's been confirmed definitively, and will be effective in their hearts, so they should continue with it.
This raised the obvious question- what did Peter mean by "the prophetic word"?
II Peter 1: 20-2120 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
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I believe Peter was speaking of Scripture as a whole, as much of it as he knew, as "the prophetic word".
In the NIV, II Peter 1:20-21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
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In explaining these verses, vpw read Bullinger's explanation and seemed to be unable to understand it. vpw read Bullinger's explanation and claimed this meant that we shouldn't try to interpret/explain Scripture like I'm doing now, because it came from God. Bullinger didn't say that, vpw flubbed his prepositions, and thus the whole point of 1:20. Bullinger said- and the NIV agrees as do I- that this addresses the ORIGIN of Scripture, that it was not by the Prophet deciding what to write, but rather that the prophets spoke the words spoken from God via the Holy Spirit.
So, if Bullinger and I and the NIV are correct, it looks like the "word of prophecy" was addressing God's Scripture as a whole.
If I sound to anyone like my goal for starting this thread was to find the one true “inherent integrity and accuracy of the word,” I apologize.Old ways of thinking still pop up now and again.It’s great to be able to discuss doctrine without everyone needing to be “like minded.”
I enjoyed reading your explanations of verses 16-19, especially verse 19. Fear temporarily robbed Peter of this faith when he later denied knowing Jesus, but this faith was restored in him when he got to be with the resurrected Jesus and see his ascension and later on receive the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. What great things he went on to do as shown in the book of Acts.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV)
2 Timothy repeats the truth in 2 Peter 1:20-21 on how or by what means the scriptures were written, both OT and NT.I think 2 Peter’s use of the word “prophecy” twice as well as the word “prophets” connect it to the “prophetic message” in verse 19.If this prophetic message refers to the OT only, then 2 Timothy covers it all - both OT and NT.
Peter’s experience is a ‘matter of record’ as well as anything else recorded in Scripture – like in the gospels, Acts, letters to the churches and individuals…In that sense – yes, Peter is not ranking Scripture over his experience – since his experiences are evidence offered up to support the case for God-breathed Scripture.
But on the other hand, I also get the idea we should not look for similar experiences to authenticate the Word of God. I read II Peter 1:16 and now what usually comes to mind is how wierwille fabricated a bunch of stories – like the 1942 audible promise of God to him, and other embellished and fictitious anecdotes – to establish a cult following him and his ‘legendary’ experiences.
Amplified Bible For we did not follow cleverly devised stories or myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty [His grandeur, His authority, His sovereignty]…II Peter 1:16
I can only speak for myself in saying that what sold me on wierwille as the real deal – as the man of God to explain Scripture - was reading about his experiences in The Way: Living in Love…So, to reiterate what I said earlier I should have made the study of Scripture a top priority (and specifically for me, even heeded all the warnings about false teachers and the criteria for discernment) instead of being impressed by wierwille’s deceptive façade.
I agree wholeheartedly - the 1942 promise was a cleverly devised manipulation technique that thousands of people bought into and who later deeply regretted doing so. From what I've read on different threads, vp was known for falsely prophesying future events and even claiming he and his ministry had actually stopped one from being fulfilled - I think it was the takeover of the US that was supposed to happen.
What you say does make me wonder about what the real gift ministry of a prophet is today.
I agree wholeheartedly - the 1942 promise was a cleverly devised manipulation technique that thousands of people bought into and who later deeply regretted doing so. From what I've read on different threads, vp was known for falsely prophesying future events and even claiming he and his ministry had actually stopped one from being fulfilled - I think it was the takeover of the US that was supposed to happen.
What you say does make me wonder about what the real gift ministry of a prophet is today.
I was a WOW in DC and I remember wierwille boasting how hisWOWs saved our country – this was during TWI’s America Awakes ‘tour’…wierwille was QAnon before it was ‘cool’ and cruel to be conspiratorial.
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As far as what the ministry of a prophet is today – all I know is info I got from books I own – I’ll share a few tidbits so you can see if the book might interest you – the one’s I’m listing are not that expensive and in my opinion are well worth the cost…and of course there’s a wealth of info online too. The advantage of a biblical dictionary, encyclopedia, commentary, or study Bible – in printed book form or eBook is that they’re usually by one author or a collaborative effort of editors and contributors. The benefit of that is once you‘vet’ the authors and editors - to examine / evaluate their ‘pedigree’ and theological positions – it’s assumed you already have some idea of academicstandards in your head to verify or check their works for accuracy, authenticity, suitability, etc...I think the more one explores legitimate works, one tends to raise the bar for what is acceptable… I don’t agree 100 % with every author because I’ve grown to be my own person – and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself…and besides that Iwon’t be swayed by bull$hit artists like wierwille anymore!
Here's a few things about New Testament prophets and my sources:
Prophets and apostles were the pillars of the early Church. In the Pauline epistles a prophet called humankind to repentance ( I Cor. 14:24), were not limited to known traditions and doctrines – for they received new revelations about the present and future as well as the past. The prophets were exhorted to examine one anothr’s works to make sure that no false teaching would arise (I Cor. 14:29; I Thess. 5:20 – 22; I John 4:1).
You probably already know this but another good source for less expensive books is used bookstores. I’ve bought and sold a bunch of books at local Half Price Bookstores.
I think the more one explores legitimate works, one tends to raise the bar for what is acceptable… I don’t agree 100 % with every author because I’ve grown to be my own person – and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself…and besides that I won’t be swayed by bull$hit artists like wierwille anymore!
Here's a few things about New Testament prophets and my sources:
Prophets and apostles were the pillars of the early Church. In the Pauline epistles a prophet called humankind to repentance ( I Cor. 14:24), were not limited to known traditions and doctrines – for they received new revelations about the present and future as well as the past. The prophets were exhorted to examine one another's works to make sure that no false teaching would arise (I Cor. 14:29; I Thess. 5:20 – 22; I John 4:1).
Thank you very much for the helpful info you shared.
"...and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself" I so love to hear others speak about using critical thinking because it is so antithetical to what we experienced in twi. What was shared by others above has helped me to better understand 2 Peter 1. THANK YOU EVERYONE! There is not the one and only MOGFODAT who is responsible for the rightly dividing of God's word which must be then spread over the world. As we all know, vp thought very highly of himself. God's expectation greatly contradicts this.
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
Having discussions like the above
I agree so much as said experiences aren't verifiable. If you say you healed a man then I should be able to talk to that man about the healing, logistical issues aside. There was a very open pattern in the gospels and Acts where healings, miracles and such happened publicly and were verifiable, heck dang nearly indisputable. Wierwille lacks such witness.
Ok, THIS one cannot go unchallenged.
You might be able to make this assertion of the gospels were written a day after the events recorded therein, or even a year. But it was decades later, by which time the majority of those named were dead (and many were not named at all). Wierwille's assertions were contemporaneous in comparison. Add to that the face that some of these characters are impossible to find because we have their first names only, and some came from places that don't actually exist (Indiana Jones and the Quest for Arimathea), and there's literally no way to verify the overwhelming majority of what happened in the gospels. The BEST you've got from history is that John the Baptist, Herod and Pilate actually existed and would have been in the position to see and do what is recorded in the gospels. No record that they actually DID those things, but that's only a problem for the Herod story.
You might be able to make this assertion of the gospels were written a day after the events recorded therein, or even a year. But it was decades later, by which time the majority of those named were dead (and many were not named at all). Wierwille's assertions were contemporaneous in comparison. Add to that the face that some of these characters are impossible to find because we have their first names only, and some came from places that don't actually exist (Indiana Jones and the Quest for Arimathea), and there's literally no way to verify the overwhelming majority of what happened in the gospels. The BEST you've got from history is that John the Baptist, Herod and Pilate actually existed and would have been in the position to see and do what is recorded in the gospels. No record that they actually DID those things, but that's only a problem for the Herod story.
Dang near indisputable? Hardly.
To be clear, I have faith that the records in scripture are true. There are several records in Acts where healings happened publicly and there was no denying it for those present. I could have been more clear in saying I was referring to those, I never meant that every record in scripture would have a person on standby that could attest to the miracle.
What I will say again and standby and I will word it a little clearer. If wierwille, for example, had a legitimate healing ministry then there should be people that can come out and say "I was healed" and have a testimony to back the claim, preferably with a release from their Dr showing that they are healed.
You and I are likely in different camps (so to speak) when it comes to God and scripture. I still believe the Bible contains the Word of God. Not everyone believes that and Im fine with that as well.
But in the case of the way international, they make bold claims that they are fully instructing people to operate all nine manifestations. So there should be ample, verifiable, miracoulous healings to accompany the claim. That hasnt been my experience at all with them.
Secular history may or may not support claims made in scripture and Im fine with that because I dont necessarily depend on secular sources to validate scripture.
Historicity need not get in the way of Truth. I don't accept the Bible as historically accurate in every word written. I don't think all of it is literally true. But it doesn't need to be. At least not for me. The Truth that is discoverable is not dependent on everything being perfectly accurate historically.
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T-Bone
Hi Charity,
I think you’ve got the right idea on II Peter 1:19 – emphasizing Scripture over Peter remembering an experience. You’re in good company cuz I looked the passage up in my MacArthur study Bible – which uses the NASB. I thought his comments may be helpful – which I’ve quoted below this portion of II Peter 1 from NASB:
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a [j]declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is [k]My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— 18 and we ourselves heard this [l]declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture [m]becomes a matter of [n]someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
II Peter 1 NASB - Growth in Christian Virtue - Simon - Bible Gateway
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from my MacArthur study Bible:
1:19 the prophetic word. The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah (cf. Lk 24:27).
made more sure. This translation could indicate that the eyewitness account of Christ’s majesty at the Transfiguration confirmed the Scriptures. However, the Gr. word order is crucial in that it does not say that. It says, “And we have more sure the prophetic word.” That original arrangement of the sentence supports the interpretation that Peter is ranking Scripture over experience. The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone. More specifically, the Word of God is a more reliable verification of the teachings about the person, atonement, and second coming of Christ than even the genuine firsthand experiences of the apostles themselves.
From page 1924, 2 Peter 1 of MacArthur Study Bibles - Christianbook.com
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OldSkool
Its really interesting to string the accounts of the transfiguration together with 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation chapter 1. The accounts in the gospels foreshadow the glory that God would bestow upon Jesus Christ, 2 Peter confirm that the glory and honor bestowed on Jesus Christ was from God himself, and Revelation 1 gives a glimpse of that glory and what our Lord has been changed into. (He is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit. So it is written [in Scripture], “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL (an individual);” the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit [restoring the dead to life])
Its quite eyeopening that scripture says in 1 John that we shall see him as he is and that we will be like him after we are gathered. Oh---hehe...all three acounts and the account in Peter show a very plain record of God audibly speaking to flesh and blood from a cloud...something wierwille said God could not do.
Matthew 17:1,2
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mark Chapter 9:2,3
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Luke 9:28,29
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
2 Peter 1:17,18
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Revelation 1:11-16
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
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Charity
Thanks T-Bone. I really appreciate the feedback. I'll reply with more questions later.
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cman
It doesn't say "second" coming. The coming of Christ, revelation of Christ and other phrases are used to describe a more sure word of prophecy.
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cman
Good questions though, Charity.
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Charity
Hi cman, nice to meet you.
You're right, the verse doesn't say "second" coming. I based that assumption on what I read in the following commentaries on this verse found on Bible Hub. How do you understand "we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," as describing a more sure word of prophecy.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The power and coming - These two words refer to the same thing; and the meaning is, his "powerful coming," or his "coming in power." The advent of the Saviour is commonly represented as connected with the exhibition of power. Matthew 24:30, "coming in the clouds of heaven, with power." The "power" evinced will be by raising the dead; summoning the world to judgment; determining the destiny of men, etc.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
The power and coming.—The power conferred upon Christ after being glorified in His passion and resurrection, and his coming again to judgment. (Comp. 2Peter 3:4; Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:27; 1Corinthians 15:23; &c., &c., where the same Greek word is used.) In this power He will come again. His first coming at the Incarnation would neither be the usual meaning of the word nor would suit the context.
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ] The “coming,” here, as in every other passage of the New Testament in which the word occurs, is the Second Advent, not the first. The mind of the Apostle goes back to what he had witnessed in the glory of the Transfiguration, as the pledge and earnest of that which was afterwards to be revealed.
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Charity
Thank you.
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WordWolf
Addressing your question required reading the chapter, so I did. :) Here's the relevant verses in the NASB, to be followed with my answer to your questions, based on my reading of the relevant verses.
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II Peter 1: 16-19 (NASB)
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased "- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
====================================Verse 16 points out the contrast between "cleverly-devised tales" about power and the Lord Jesus Christ's personal presence, and actual eyewitness accounts of the authority of Jesus. Peter and the others were eyewitnesses and reported what they saw and heard directly. They didn't pass along tall tales, legends, myths, etc.
Verse 17 brings up the Mount of Transfiguration incident, where the eyewitnesses saw Jesus in conference with Moses and Elijah (IMHO, one heck of a vision brought by God) followed immediately by The Voice of God in the heavens, when He declared that Jesus was His beloved Son in whom He was well-pleased."
Verse 18 reiterates that they were eyewitnesses- they were there and saw the guys, they heard the Voice from the heavens. They didn't get a verbal report from someone else, or read that it happened- they were physically there, and physically experienced the moments as they happened.
Verse 19 draws an obvious conclusion from all that. It's one thing to believe or disbelieve, but Peter's not going to doubt who Jesus is- because Peter was there when God Almighty confirmed- directly and in the 5 senses and with no confusion- that Jesus was the well-pleasing beloved Son of God Almighty- as reported to them by God Almighty, who would know. They knew it was God Almighty telling them this because only God Almighty can deliver messages in that manner, and nobody else can make the heavens rumble when he speaks like that. So, to Peter, the Scriptures of which he speaks are confirmed by God Almighty Himself. so Peter has no reason to doubt their authority. It's like God Almighty showed up and notarized them on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Keeping all of that in mind, Peter's saying to heed "the prophetic word' because it's been confirmed definitively, and will be effective in their hearts, so they should continue with it.
This raised the obvious question- what did Peter mean by "the prophetic word"?
II Peter 1: 20-2120 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
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I believe Peter was speaking of Scripture as a whole, as much of it as he knew, as "the prophetic word".
In the NIV, II Peter 1:20-21
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
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In explaining these verses, vpw read Bullinger's explanation and seemed to be unable to understand it. vpw read Bullinger's explanation and claimed this meant that we shouldn't try to interpret/explain Scripture like I'm doing now, because it came from God. Bullinger didn't say that, vpw flubbed his prepositions, and thus the whole point of 1:20. Bullinger said- and the NIV agrees as do I- that this addresses the ORIGIN of Scripture, that it was not by the Prophet deciding what to write, but rather that the prophets spoke the words spoken from God via the Holy Spirit.
So, if Bullinger and I and the NIV are correct, it looks like the "word of prophecy" was addressing God's Scripture as a whole.
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Charity
I'm thinking the opposite - that the prophetic word of the Old Testament in verse 19 confirms what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:16 and what he has been saying throughout the context of 1 and 2 Peter.
Looking previously at 1 Peter 1, in verse 3, “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” verse 5, “or a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,” verse 7, “may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ,” and verse 13, “the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Finally, in 1 Peter 4:13, “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that at the revelation of His glory you may also rejoice and be overjoyed.”
Next, looking after is 2 Peter 3 verses 3 & 4, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” In verses 8-10, Peter answers what these mockers said, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” Finally, there are verses 14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
1 Peter 1:16 is in the middle and as I understand it, is still on the topic of the second coming, “16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”
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Charity
Hi OldSkool,
I have never spent much time looking at the record of Jesus’ transfiguration in the 3 gospels. I now find it to be very inspiring. The time for Jesus to be arrested, mocked, tortured and crucified was getting closer. He knows from Old Testament scripture just how bad it is going to be for him. Then you read about this miraculous way of God showing his deep love for His son in wanting to prepare him for what’s ahead. I think Jesus, who was a human like us, must have had his mind blown
(was deeply affected) when he experienced how His father was showing him the future glory he would be given and, oh yes, I'm sure he was also comforted and strengthened (smile).
Questions about 1 Peter 1:16, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” What is your understanding of “when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this verse? Who are the “we”? Was the “making known” referring to verbal telling(s) or previous scriptures the believers had received or both? I know at the time Peter wrote 1 & 2 Peter, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke as well as Paul’s epistles had been already been written.
Actually, that reminds me of Peter referring to Paul in 2 Peter 3:14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,
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cman
The "second coming." is a cunningly devised fable. However, the coming of the Lord is talking about something they experienced and were encouraged to continue in.
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WordWolf
I disagree that the "second coming" was either a fable or cunningly-devised. I'm aware there's different schools of thought on the subject- amillenialism, etc. I'm not planning on badmouthing those positions nor their adherents, since I can't see that helping anyone. My fellow Christians with whom I disagree doubtless feel just as strongly about their positions as I do. If I present a case for my position, that's one thing. But otherwise, I don't see the point.
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OldSkool
2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Judging from the context (my point of view is not all encompassing) I would say he is referring to the group of Apostles who were with Jesus during his ministry to Israel as well as the later addition of Paul. Given the context is saying we have not cunningly devised fables because that is exactly what the religous leaders all across the synagogues accused them of. They said that Jesus disciples stole away his body by night for example: It would be fair to speculate that this was not the only lie told against the apostles to make the apostles appear as liars.
They made known the power and coming of Jesus Christ is referring to Jesus coming to Israel and then being rejected by his own. Yet they made Jesus Christ known through signs miracles and wonders as recorded in the book of Acts. Again, I think it's a fair assumpumption to speculate that the apostles did much more than recorded in Acts, where Acts is a summation and really just the tip of the ice berg. God revealed to Peter and the others at the transfiguration Jesus Christs true majesty, that same majesty he is clothed in to this very day.
So the made known happened in quite a few ways as you noted several. They preached in the temples and synagogues and really wherever they went. They circulated epistles as they were revealed by Jesus Christ to his apostles. They had the Old Testament that pointed to the coming Messiah where Peter and the others literally reasoned amongst in the synagugues that this Jesus is the long awaited Messiah. Their witness is still reverberating to this very day.
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Charity
I agree with what you wrote, “The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone.” But I don’t think it applies to verse 16-18 (imo) for 2 reasons:
1) By the time Peter writes these verses, Matthew, Mark and Luke had been written so his experience was already part of scripture. How could Peter’s verse 19 mean he is ranking Scripture over his experience when his experience is part of Scripture?
2) There was nothing wrong with Peter’s memory as others have said is the reason he wrote verse 19. What he shared about the transfiguration in verses 16-18 did not contradict what the 3 Gospels said about the event.
Regarding verse 19, I agree with you that "The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah.”
So does the context of verse 19 support the idea that Peter was pointing out to the believers how the completely reliable prophetic word would therefore confirm what Peter and the others were telling them about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty? It was not a cunningly devised fable.
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T-Bone
Peter’s experience is a ‘matter of record’ as well as anything else recorded in Scripture – like in the gospels, Acts, letters to the churches and individuals…In that sense – yes, Peter is not ranking Scripture over his experience – since his experiences are evidence offered up to support the case for God-breathed Scripture.
But on the other hand, I also get the idea we should not look for similar experiences to authenticate the Word of God. I read II Peter 1:16 and now what usually comes to mind is how wierwille fabricated a bunch of stories – like the 1942 audible promise of God to him, and other embellished and fictitious anecdotes – to establish a cult following him and his ‘legendary’ experiences.
Amplified Bible
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories or myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty [His grandeur, His authority, His sovereignty]…II Peter 1:16
I can only speak for myself in saying that what sold me on wierwille as the real deal – as the man of God to explain Scripture - was reading about his experiences in The Way: Living in Love…So, to reiterate what I said earlier I should have made the study of Scripture a top priority (and specifically for me, even heeded all the warnings about false teachers and the criteria for discernment) instead of being impressed by wierwille’s deceptive façade.
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OldSkool
I agree so much as said experiences aren't verifiable. If you say you healed a man then I should be able to talk to that man about the healing, logistical issues aside. There was a very open pattern in the gospels and Acts where healings, miracles and such happened publicly and were verifiable, heck dang nearly indisputable. Wierwille lacks such witness.
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Charity
If I sound to anyone like my goal for starting this thread was to find the one true “inherent integrity and accuracy of the word,” I apologize. Old ways of thinking still pop up now and again. It’s great to be able to discuss doctrine without everyone needing to be “like minded.”
I enjoyed reading your explanations of verses 16-19, especially verse 19. Fear temporarily robbed Peter of this faith when he later denied knowing Jesus, but this faith was restored in him when he got to be with the resurrected Jesus and see his ascension and later on receive the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. What great things he went on to do as shown in the book of Acts.
2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV)
2 Timothy repeats the truth in 2 Peter 1:20-21 on how or by what means the scriptures were written, both OT and NT. I think 2 Peter’s use of the word “prophecy” twice as well as the word “prophets” connect it to the “prophetic message” in verse 19. If this prophetic message refers to the OT only, then 2 Timothy covers it all - both OT and NT.
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Charity
I agree wholeheartedly - the 1942 promise was a cleverly devised manipulation technique that thousands of people bought into and who later deeply regretted doing so. From what I've read on different threads, vp was known for falsely prophesying future events and even claiming he and his ministry had actually stopped one from being fulfilled - I think it was the takeover of the US that was supposed to happen.
What you say does make me wonder about what the real gift ministry of a prophet is today.
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T-Bone
I was a WOW in DC and I remember wierwille boasting how his WOWs saved our country – this was during TWI’s America Awakes ‘tour’…wierwille was QAnon before it was ‘cool’ and cruel to be conspiratorial.
~ ~ ~ ~
As far as what the ministry of a prophet is today – all I know is info I got from books I own – I’ll share a few tidbits so you can see if the book might interest you – the one’s I’m listing are not that expensive and in my opinion are well worth the cost…and of course there’s a wealth of info online too. The advantage of a biblical dictionary, encyclopedia, commentary, or study Bible – in printed book form or eBook is that they’re usually by one author or a collaborative effort of editors and contributors. The benefit of that is once you ‘vet’ the authors and editors - to examine / evaluate their ‘pedigree’ and theological positions – it’s assumed you already have some idea of academic standards in your head to verify or check their works for accuracy, authenticity, suitability, etc...I think the more one explores legitimate works, one tends to raise the bar for what is acceptable… I don’t agree 100 % with every author because I’ve grown to be my own person – and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself…and besides that Iwon’t be swayed by bull$hit artists like wierwille anymore!
Here's a few things about New Testament prophets and my sources:
Prophets and apostles were the pillars of the early Church. In the Pauline epistles a prophet called humankind to repentance ( I Cor. 14:24), were not limited to known traditions and doctrines – for they received new revelations about the present and future as well as the past. The prophets were exhorted to examine one anothr’s works to make sure that no false teaching would arise (I Cor. 14:29; I Thess. 5:20 – 22; I John 4:1).
From: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: Orr, James, Nuelsen, John L., Mullins, Edgar Young: 9781565630260: Amazon.com: Books
But I also have the Kindle version Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) - Kindle edition by Orr, James. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. cost is only $4.99
Here’s a few others I use and highly recommend:
Systematic Theology, Second Edition: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine: Grudem, Wayne A.: 9780274840472: Amazon.com: Books
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Christian Belief - Kindle edition by Frame, John M.. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.
God Is Love: A Biblical and Systematic Theology: Bray, Gerald: 0884225279263: Amazon.com: Books
Amazon.com: Evangelical Dictionary of Theology: 9780801039461: Treier, Daniel J., Elwell, Walter A.: Books (this is newer – I have a 1984 edition)
You probably already know this but another good source for less expensive books is used bookstores. I’ve bought and sold a bunch of books at local Half Price Bookstores.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Charity
Thank you very much for the helpful info you shared.
"...and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself" I so love to hear others speak about using critical thinking because it is so antithetical to what we experienced in twi. What was shared by others above has helped me to better understand 2 Peter 1. THANK YOU EVERYONE! There is not the one and only MOGFODAT who is responsible for the rightly dividing of God's word which must be then spread over the world.
As we all know, vp thought very highly of himself. God's expectation greatly contradicts this.
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
Having discussions like the above
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Raf
Ok, THIS one cannot go unchallenged.
You might be able to make this assertion of the gospels were written a day after the events recorded therein, or even a year. But it was decades later, by which time the majority of those named were dead (and many were not named at all). Wierwille's assertions were contemporaneous in comparison. Add to that the face that some of these characters are impossible to find because we have their first names only, and some came from places that don't actually exist (Indiana Jones and the Quest for Arimathea), and there's literally no way to verify the overwhelming majority of what happened in the gospels. The BEST you've got from history is that John the Baptist, Herod and Pilate actually existed and would have been in the position to see and do what is recorded in the gospels. No record that they actually DID those things, but that's only a problem for the Herod story.
Dang near indisputable? Hardly.
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Bolshevik
The Bible is not a text on real factual history.
Victor Paul Wierwille did not speak the truth.
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OldSkool
To be clear, I have faith that the records in scripture are true. There are several records in Acts where healings happened publicly and there was no denying it for those present. I could have been more clear in saying I was referring to those, I never meant that every record in scripture would have a person on standby that could attest to the miracle.
What I will say again and standby and I will word it a little clearer. If wierwille, for example, had a legitimate healing ministry then there should be people that can come out and say "I was healed" and have a testimony to back the claim, preferably with a release from their Dr showing that they are healed.
You and I are likely in different camps (so to speak) when it comes to God and scripture. I still believe the Bible contains the Word of God. Not everyone believes that and Im fine with that as well.
But in the case of the way international, they make bold claims that they are fully instructing people to operate all nine manifestations. So there should be ample, verifiable, miracoulous healings to accompany the claim. That hasnt been my experience at all with them.
Secular history may or may not support claims made in scripture and Im fine with that because I dont necessarily depend on secular sources to validate scripture.
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Nathan_Jr
Historicity need not get in the way of Truth. I don't accept the Bible as historically accurate in every word written. I don't think all of it is literally true. But it doesn't need to be. At least not for me. The Truth that is discoverable is not dependent on everything being perfectly accurate historically.
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