You could argue there are dimensions present that we lack perception to, and it's possible some beings can readily detect them as well.
Same could be said for the electromagnetic spectrum. Some people see colors others don't. Some are blind. Some animals see colors no human is able to. We can build instruments to detect wavelengths outside what our eyeballs can receive.
Im thinking the universe is finite and God infinite, accordingly there is so much we just dont understand about God, life, Christ, the world, universe, etc. Even though the creation is finite theres so much we dont really understand. I guess thats what happens when the creation is corrupted and seperated by sin from it's creator. Anywho.
Im thinking there very could be other dimensions and such...that part is so far beyond me that the best I can do is expectantly wait for God to bring us along throughout eternity as we will see him face to face so to speak. But as far as a natural realm and a seperate spiritual realm as defined by the way international:? I think thats all garbage.
I feel that if anything that its man's perspective that changed after the fall. Meaning as a consequence of sin mankind was no longer to walk/talk face to face with God -- so to speak because God is spirit. So, while God may be right next to us at all times we dont necesarily "see" him or "sense" him in the same manner that humans interact.
Oh...where scripture talks about that which is "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"....TWI uses this verse to mark out two seperate realms: Physical/spiritual. I dont think thats what it says at all. I think in these verses in John Jesus was teaching that a new creation was coming and a man must be born again into that new creation. Whats born after the flesh is corrupted by sin. That which is born of the spirit is incorruptible seed that cannot sin. So we are talking about natures inherited from which source they originate. Flesh = corruption and death --- Spirit = incorruption and eternal life.
So, I imagine the world as it is and it works to imagine it as a flat/perhaps spherical plane in shape, while the firmament above is multi-dimensional in nature.
Much has been said, in some scientific circles, about Flatland. A book was written primarily to poke fun at Victorian England and its caste system. However, in the process, ideas came up that were discussed by scientists later. I'm interested in that part. It's about the possibility of existence in different numbers of dimensions. I'm not going to retype or reiterate the entire book. However, there's a few concepts that I think bear discussing.
The imaginary concept of Flatland....
In Flatland, everything that is, exists in TWO DIMENSIONS. Everything is FLAT. All beings exist in flat forms, geometrical in nature. Everything they can perceive is in their 2 dimensions, and that's it. We follow a Square through the story. One day, a Sphere (THREE- DIMENSIONAL) attempts to interact with Square. At first, all Square knows is that a flat disc is trying to interact with him- he can't perceive a SPHERE, since it exists in 3 dimensions. Square can only perceive a 2-dimensional slice of Sphere that's intersecting Flatland. Sphere tries to explain a 3rd dimension, square just can't get it. Sphere moves around, and appears as a disc that is getting larger and smaller (depending on what part of the Sphere is in Flatland.) Eventually, Sphere gets frustrated and picks up Square, who vanishes from Flatland.
Now Square is in Spaceland. Square can look out over all of Flatland and see how his existence has been until now, as Flatlanders continue their lives. After further discussion, Sphere returns Square back to where he came from. Part of the discussion was an analogy- if there's a 3rd dimension Square couldn't see, why not figure there's a 4th dimension Sphere doesn't see now?
One of my favorite TV shows growing up was The Outer Limits – and one of the most memorable episodes was The Outer Limits: Behold Eck! A two-dimensional alien, stranded in our three-dimensional world, inadvertently causes havoc in Los Angeles. Only a mild-mannered optician and his secretary have the power to help – it was pretty cool – if I remember correctly the optician fabricated a special lens for Eck to see the doorway to get back to his world.
I’m not familiar with Flatland…Theologian Alister McGrath – in his Understanding the Trinity book (I think) used a similar thought experiment to ponder how we humans living if living only in 2 dimensions could relate to a being that lives in more dimensions. I drew upon that idea in a recent post-here - where I said:
We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know!
And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know!
Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly.
Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?"
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I also touched on alternate dimensions on a couple of other threads-hereandhere .
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Our physical space is observed to have three large spatial dimensions and, along with time, is a boundless 4-dimensional continuum known as space-time continuum . Theoretical physicists have come up with a number of concepts that incorporate extra physical measurements describing more dimensions – from10 to 26 dimensions!
This is fascinating to think about – how do we measure stuff?
Science uses various methods to quantify matter, energy, and the passage of time (time being the 4th dimension) . In concepts and mathematics, scientists theorize there are other dimensions – but currently there is no way to evaluate by observation or experimentation if they truly exist.
The Logos – and some tidbits I picked up from studies of John 1
The Greeks had the concept of the Logos – which means two things – “word” and “reason”.“The Jew was entirely familiar with the all-powerful word of God. “God said, let there be light; and there was light” (Genesis 1:3). The Greek was entirely familiar with the thought of reason. He looked at this world; he saw a magnificent and dependable order. Night and day came with unfailing regularity; the year kept its seasons in unvarying order; the stars and planets moved in their unaltering path; nature had unvarying laws. What produced this order? The Greek answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, is responsible for the majestic order of the world…What enables man to think, to reason and to know? Again he answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, dwelling within a man makes him a thinking rational being.
Another big idea that Greeks had was the concept of two worlds. One of the worlds was the one in which we live – a world of mere shadows and copies and reflections of another realm. To the Greeks this other unseen realm was considered the real world. Plato(Athenian philosopher, approx. 423 to 348 BC) is most famous for The Theory of Formswhich is a philosophical worldview that the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas – which are the non-physical essences of all things, of which objects and matter in the physical world are merely imitations. The great challenge to philosophy was how to connect to this unseen reality…how to get out of the shadows and into the eternal truths. source John 1 - Barclay's Daily Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
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A recent development of humankind is virtual reality - the computer-generated simulation of a three-dimensional image or environment that can be interacted with in a seemingly real or physical way by a person using special electronic equipment, such as a helmet with a screen inside or gloves fitted with sensors…are we God’s virtual reality? Just kidding – but it makes me think of how a certain ‘reality’ is created.
In the early years of my work career, I was involved in the building and remodeling industries. Building materials and manufacturing processes have come a long way since then. It's not just lumber, concrete, plastic, steel, alloys, composite materials – there’s also 3-D printing for an entire house! Saw it on TV - it must be real
It's possible God could use alternate materials and methods for building other worlds – and the laws of physical science for those worlds…those alternate realities – would differ from ours…and just to define terms – for me anyway, if it’s anything that exists in a world created by God or by the creatures of God – that’s reality…Even if it’s other dimensions or other worlds that are undetectable to us – that’s an alternate reality – plain old reality for the residents of those worlds- and that means we are an alternate reality to them.
Edited by T-Bone Now editing in 26 dimensions...too many typos !!!!!
I think that fits a lot of perspectives...Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. Where as divine is relating to God, with God being the highest in a classifications of spirit beings that are "higher" than ourselves. So otherworldly actually really communicates. But in this case God is otherworldly to the one we currently live and therein lies the crux of a perfect creator saving and redeeming an imperfect creation. Naturally, we dont truly understand the true nature of our creator considering the best we can do in these carbon based tabernacles is see through a glass darkly.
You could argue there are dimensions present that we lack perception to, and it's possible some beings can readily detect them as well.
Same could be said for the electromagnetic spectrum. Some people see colors others don't. Some are blind. Some animals see colors no human is able to. We can build instruments to detect wavelengths outside what our eyeballs can receive.
Same could be said with sound waves.
We all live in a narrow band of perception.
Thats a really good point as to how relative perception really is and how that perception can vary depending on the specific anatomy of the ear. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans. Since its really the complex workings of the inner ear that translate these waves into electrical impulses and so on...
To quote Nikola Tesla: If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration.
Perhaps the spirit realm (just to use a familiar overused cheesy term) is not so much a realm but a plane of existance we cant perceive. Bolsh, you essentially said the same thing when you stated "We all live in a narrow band of perception"
So who is to say as a consequence of the fall our perception was narrowed significantly to what we can currently perceive.
You could argue there are dimensions present that we lack perception to, and it's possible some beings can readily detect them as well.
Same could be said for the electromagnetic spectrum. Some people see colors others don't. Some are blind. Some animals see colors no human is able to. We can build instruments to detect wavelengths outside what our eyeballs can receive.
Same could be said with sound waves.
We all live in a narrow band of perception.
3 hours ago, OldSkool said:
Thats a really good point as to how relative perception really is and how that perception can vary depending on the specific anatomy of the ear. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans. Since its really the complex workings of the inner ear that translate these waves into electrical impulses and so on...
To quote Nikola Tesla: If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration.
Perhaps the spirit realm (just to use a familiar overused cheesy term) is not so much a realm but a plane of existance we cant perceive. Bolsh, you essentially said the same thing when you stated "We all live in a narrow band of perception"
So who is to say as a consequence of the fall our perception was narrowed significantly to what we can currently perceive.
That makes me circle back to superstring theory – theoretical physicists talk about strings or loops, and each vibrates at a unique frequency – and for some reason I always associate that with a gimmick in the 1999 animated sci-fi filmThe Iron Giant ...A young boy befriends a giant robot from outer space that a paranoid government agent wants to destroy…however the giant robot is friendly and saves a small town by deflecting a nuclear missile and is destroyed in the process. Parts of the robot are scattered across thousands of miles. At the end of the movie, each part appears to be emitting a frequency communicating with the head – and the parts become mobilized to reassemble – heading back to where the head is located…it’s one of my daughter’s favorite movies – mine too!
In 2010, my brother-in-law passed away, his wife asked me to share at the funeral. I read fromI Corinthians 15 about the resurrection:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
What is remarkable to think about is that the “spiritual body”…the “glorious” body – does not appear to be something God whips up out of thin air. Paul said “When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed…”(verse 37). So that gives me the idea that perhaps our new bodies are in part somewhat reconstituted from the old body – but with substantial improvements, upgrades, and advanced capabilities…Think about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Did the disciples find a fresh corpse in the grave? Nope! The body was missing!
And when Jesus appeared to the disciples in His resurrected form – He didn’t say “Hey guys, this feels really weird – I don’t feel like myself.” Jesus said, “It is I myself!”:
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Soooooooo…thinking about superstring theory…vibrating strings…homing device built into the parts of a robot for a worst-case scenario reassembly…old bodies reconstructed into new…
New International Version Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life…Philippians 4:3
What if some angels are keeping records of the uniquefrequency of the tiny bits of pure energy that are the smallest components of matter and force in each person. What if someone has been dead for thousands of years? What about bodies totally decomposed…became part of the soil or ocean…well…The First Law of Thermodynamics is one of the absolute physical laws of the universe – it states that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyedsee First Law of Thermodynamics (allaboutscience.org) …so is it possible that the sovereign creator of the cosmos could summon all the components of a specific frequency- wherever they are - and restore them into in a new…improved…enhanced form? Sounds like a herculean task, doesn’t it?
Ever thought about the creation story in the Bible?
The Big Bang theory predicts that the early universe was a very hot place and that as it expands, the gas within it cools. Thus the universe should be filled with radiation that is literally the remnant heat left over from the Big Bang, called the “cosmic microwave background", or CMB…
…According to the Big Bang theory, the frequency spectrum of the CMB should have this blackbody form. This was indeed measured with tremendous accuracy by the FIRAS experiment on NASA's COBE satellite…
…There is no alternative theory yet proposed that predicts this energy spectrum. The accurate measurement of its shape was another important test of the Big Bang theory…one of the most striking features about the cosmic microwave background is its uniformity…
…Only with very sensitive instruments, such as COBE and WMAP, can cosmologists detect fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background temperature. By studying these fluctuations, cosmologists can learn about the origin of galaxies and large scale structures of galaxies and they can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory.
If you think keeping track of certain unique identifying frequencies for a bunch of humans is tough – think about being the project manager for the Big Bang – there’s a LOT OF OPERATIONS TO SUPERVISE FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS:
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As a side note on this creation stuff, I think Genesis 1 should be read as an ode to the Creator and not as a scientific textbook. I don’t think it gives enough detail to show exactly how God did it. And seeing how the cosmology of the ancient Hebrews and other cultures were similar – I think the chief difference with the Hebrew’s over other cosmologies was that the Creator was sovereign over all – indicated by His supreme authority to name everything and assign its function / purpose.
In other cultures, the sun, the earth, the moon, the stars, etc. were either considered gods and/or were managed by various gods…Other cultures might brag about their ‘franchise’ of certain gods. But the Hebrews could counter that those franchises were still under the jurisdiction of the Creator – the head God over all.
And tying this into other thoughts on this thread – the Big Bang Theory is probably scientists’ best guess on how the known dimensions came about. It’s possible there are other dimensions…other universes that exist…it would be fascinating if there will be a streaming service in heaven so that we can binge-watch the creation of our world... and other worlds…imagine watching the series The 456th Universe Next Door: Season 15 trillionth; episode 4 – and it starts out “Previously on The 456th Universe Next Door…”
Thats a really good point as to how relative perception really is and how that perception can vary depending on the specific anatomy of the ear. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans. Since its really the complex workings of the inner ear that translate these waves into electrical impulses and so on...
To quote Nikola Tesla: If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration.
Perhaps the spirit realm (just to use a familiar overused cheesy term) is not so much a realm but a plane of existence we cant perceive. Bolsh, you essentially said the same thing when you stated "We all live in a narrow band of perception"
So who is to say as a consequence of the fall our perception was narrowed significantly to what we can currently perceive.
I was just thinking about this. I'm aware of and utilize all kinds of vibrations in science. But these vibrations can be measured, modeled, mathematically represented, and used in various applications. It's how we know what stars are made of.
When I say we live in a narrow band of perception, it's because that's the area homo sapiens sapiens evolved in. We express all things within that narrow perception.
I know some can claim "the universe is vibrations" and then go down some road where they start explaining all sorts of things because some idea popped into their heads, like healing themselves with crystals. . . . yeah we are immersed in infinite vibrations but that doesn't mean we make up the rules.
At some point in human evolution we became different than other life. We think of the future, and that creates anxiety. How do you deal with that? Our brains require further growth outside the womb, that makes us very dependent on the previous generation. How should we organize ourselves? Do we work together or not? Our frames are upright and exposed. Do you feel vulnerable being conscious of this? Why do you wear clothes? Our problems come from outside of us, and they also come from within us. We can guess what others are thinking based how much we understand ourselves. If I know what hurts me, then I know how to hurt you, and what you could do to me . .
The Fall in The Bible is a description of our perception of ourselves going from unawareness like a plant to the consciousness of the human condition . . .
So I don't see The Fall as much as an objective event exactly.
Where is God? The Bible says where two or more gather their He is. Is He subjective? When we gather do we all have to see objective reality to agree on something?
So other dimensions and vibrations and stuff, not really a search for God. Objectively speaking.
I don't think I've heard The Fall used in a dimensional reference with Adam and Eve. Maybe Lucifer is pictured falling from the heavens.
But I think it's understood this is a fall in status. Adam and Eve cover themselves because of shame. God still found them. So who were they really hiding from?
I know some can claim "the universe is vibrations" and then go down some road where they start explaining all sorts of things because some idea popped into their heads, like healing themselves with crystals. . . . yeah we are immersed in infinite vibrations but that doesn't mean we make up the rules.
Ill respong in more depth later on the rest of your post but with me having a background in the occult I was exposed to all the junk with vibratory healing properties of this element or that...its all BS as far as what they claim. Im not saying there arent good vibrations vs bad vibrations...but that is subjective at best because maybe a bad vibration for the human body is something that is necessary and useful in some contexts. But anywho, just to be clear on this one point that we are on the same page....prob most other points too...I gotta go clean some windows...
This is a discussion for specific "thought experiments." I'm interested in IDEAS here, not definitive doctrines.
Much has been said, in some scientific circles, about Flatland. A book was written primarily to poke fun at Victorian England and its caste system. However, in the process, ideas came up that were discussed by scientists later. I'm interested in that part. It's about the possibility of existence in different numbers of dimensions. I'm not going to retype or reiterate the entire book. However, there's a few concepts that I think bear discussing.
The imaginary concept of Flatland....
In Flatland, everything that is, exists in TWO DIMENSIONS. Everything is FLAT. All beings exist in flat forms, geometrical in nature. Everything they can perceive is in their 2 dimensions, and that's it. We follow a Square through the story. One day, a Sphere (THREE- DIMENSIONAL) attempts to interact with Square. At first, all Square knows is that a flat disc is trying to interact with him- he can't perceive a SPHERE, since it exists in 3 dimensions. Square can only perceive a 2-dimensional slice of Sphere that's intersecting Flatland. Sphere tries to explain a 3rd dimension, square just can't get it. Sphere moves around, and appears as a disc that is getting larger and smaller (depending on what part of the Sphere is in Flatland.) Eventually, Sphere gets frustrated and picks up Square, who vanishes from Flatland.
Now Square is in Spaceland. Square can look out over all of Flatland and see how his existence has been until now, as Flatlanders continue their lives. After further discussion, Sphere returns Square back to where he came from. Part of the discussion was an analogy- if there's a 3rd dimension Square couldn't see, why not figure there's a 4th dimension Sphere doesn't see now?
In DC comic books, there's been "5th Dimensional imps" that can travel to Earth. Once, human superheroes were shown traveling to the 5th Dimension to speak to someone in charge. The heroes appeared as flat playing cards, and the locals appeared as roughly human-shaped, as if in 3 dimensions.
So, one might consider.
If there IS a Supreme God, where would He reside?
I've thought-and this is just my thinking, nothing official- that if the universe is finite, and God Almighty is infinite, then....
I picture the universe as if it's an index card, suspended entirely in gelatin or aspic. I picture God Almighty as the gelatin or aspic. The universe is finite, and God is not, so God can't fit in the universe, but the universe could easily fit into God. Further, if this model in some way reflected a God who existed in more dimensions than the universe (thus it's flat and He isn't), then God could easily be "Everywhere-Present" as he surrounds all points at once, in at least 1 dimension "above" and "below" (outside) all of its reference points.
If Heaven instead is a dimension beyond the universe, then it's entirely external to the universe and Earth. So, one could travel from a "flat" Earth into a more-dimensional space, and vanish from 2-D sight. Jesus could travel "up" into a 4th dimension and leave Earth entirely. Heaven could be a higher-order dimension much larger than the universe, invisible to Earth but with Earth plainly visible from Heaven (like 3 dimensions looking into 2.)
These are just thoughts I like to entertain.
How about you guys?
Heaven must be a whole lot bigger than we can possibly comprehend especially if the universe continues to expand indefinitely as some believe.
Heaven must be a whole lot bigger than we can possibly comprehend especially if the universe continues to expand indefinitely as some believe.
That’s assuming that the size of heaven correlates to the size of the universe.
What if the universe is a mere “bubble” inside the kingdom of heaven?
what if heaven was inter-dimensional ? Existing multidimensionally - in more than the 3 dimensions we can sense and measure - heaven existing in, through, around and beyond the physical universe?
That’s assuming that the size of heaven correlates to the size of the universe.
What if the universe is a mere “bubble” inside the kingdom of heaven?
what if heaven was inter-dimensional ? Existing multidimensionally - in more than the 3 dimensions we can sense and measure - heaven existing in, through, around and beyond the physical universe?
I believe it must be. It started with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Let's assume that the universe is more than a bubble but expanding indefinitely; then it's expanding in an already-existing heaven or heavens. I can't imagine... I think it's too big for human comprehension and when I focus on how big it all must be it gives me a headache.
What if the universe is a mere “bubble” inside the kingdom of heaven?
what if heaven was inter-dimensional ? Existing multidimensionally - in more than the 3 dimensions we can sense and measure - heaven existing in, through, around and beyond the physical universe?
Thanks- that's the point I was trying to make. I have no idea how I left so many people behind on that one.
I believe it must be. It started with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Let's assume that the universe is more than a bubble but expanding indefinitely; then it's expanding in an already-existing heaven or heavens. I can't imagine... I think it's too big for human comprehension and when I focus on how big it all must be it gives me a headache.
You’re assuming Genesis 1:1 is referring to the creation of the eternal kingdom of God and the physical universe. the verse makes reference to the space-time continuum - - so what are you saying? God is limited to that?
But linguistically we know certain words in the Bible - and in many languages / cultures as well - can have different meanings depending on context. When Jesus talked about our Father in heaven already knows what we need - is Jesus saying the Father is up there somewhere in the universe? When Jesus ascended into heaven did he go somewhere out there in the universe?
Is it possible the kingdom of God - a spiritual (whatever that means) heaven existed before Genesis 1:1 ?
Isaiah 57:15 says God inhabits eternity. What does that mean? Eternity is infinity - unending - duration without beginning or end…Eternal life is entrance into the kingdom of God - what ? How? When?
You’re assuming Genesis 1:1 is referring to the creation of the eternal kingdom of God and the physical universe. the verse makes reference to the space-time continuum - - so what are you saying? God is limited to that?
But linguistically we know certain words in the Bible - and in many languages / cultures as well - can have different meanings depending on context. When Jesus talked about our Father in heaven already knows what we need - is Jesus saying the Father is up there somewhere in the universe? When Jesus ascended into heaven did he go somewhere out there in the universe?
Is it possible the kingdom of God - a spiritual (whatever that means) heaven existed before Genesis 1:1 ?
Isaiah 57:15 says God inhabits eternity. What does that mean? Eternity is infinity - unending - duration without beginning or end…Eternal life is entrance into the kingdom of God - what ? How? When?
What I think I'm saying is that in the beginning the heavens were created as unlimited and accommodates an ever-expanding universe?
What I think I'm saying is that in the beginning the heavens were created as unlimited and accommodates an ever-expanding universe?
Good answer.
You might like this article:
Sometimes, it's the simplest questions that have the most complicated answers. What's the speed of dark? What happened before the Big Bang? And if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? The answer to that last question has a short answer and a long answer — but trust us when we say you're going to want the long answer.
Here's the short answer: That question doesn't make sense. The universe is everything, so it isn't expanding into anything. It's just expanding. All of the galaxies in the universe are moving away from each other, and every region of space is being stretched, but there's no center they're expanding from and no outer edge to expand into anything else.
But that doesn't mean that the universe is infinite. That brings us to the long answer. To understand how something could be finite but have no edge, think of the fabric of the universe as the surface of a balloon. As the balloon inflates, the surface stretches and every point on that surface moves away from every other point, but a tiny being on the surface of that balloon could walk forever and never run into the edge of its balloon universe. There's no edge, yet that balloon universe has a finite volume.
The Shape of the Universe
But the balloon is just one example. Scientists aren't actually sure whether the universe is finite or infinite, or even what shape the universe is. There are three options: spherical, flat, or hyperbolic (that is, it curves upward). Evidence from the earliest light in the universe suggests that the second option is on the money, and the universe is, in fact, flat.
Even if the universe is flat and not balloon-shaped, however, it's still easy to think about how it could be finite with no edge. Think about a flat piece of paper. You could take two opposing edges and make them touch, creating a cylinder. If a tiny 2-dimensional rocket ship traveled from one of those edges to the other, it would arrive back where it started. You could do the same thing in the perpendicular direction: Connect the two ends of the tube to each other (pretend this is magically stretchy paper, for the sake of argument) and create a donut shape, also known as a torus. Now your 2-dimensional rocket ship could travel anywhere it likes, and it would never encounter an edge — even though your paper torus has finite volume.
But wait, you might be saying. Paper is flat; a torus is curved. Isn't that cheating? No, and that's because scientists have a very specific definition for the word "flat." When they say flat, they mean "Euclidean," which means that parallel lines always run parallel and the sum of the angles of a triangle is always exactly 180 degrees. This doesn't happen on a sphere or a hyperbola, but it does on a cylinder, a torus, and any other shape you can make out of a flat piece of paper.
This suggests something kind of exciting: If we live in a flat universe, you could potentially travel in one direction for long enough (or build a telescope that can see far enough) to end up right back where you started. Even cooler things happen when you think about other weird shapes — shapes that twist back on themselves could make you arrive back at a mirror image of where you started, for example.
But no matter what shape the universe is, it's not expanding into anything. There's nothing outside of the universe because the universe has no edge.
I love topics like this because of the challenges to conventional thinking – and this also gets into what’s probably one of the most basic issues of Christianity – how to relate faith to reason.
Faith deals with revelation – or some supernatural disclosure which could not be discovered by the unaided powers of human reason. Reason is the natural ability of the human mind to discover truth. With science, truth is determined by verification – as in the scientific method – which is a lot of observation and experimentation. Flying a plane or launching a rocket into space are doable because scientists found out the truth about gravity – yes, it’s a law but they figured out ways to ‘work around it’ – using other laws of physics like velocity, thrust, lift, etc.… Science is practical – if it works, it’s true…
…but then there are theoretical physicists – they are curious about the nature of reality and the origin of the universe. They use mathematics and logic to create and test models of physical phenomena, such as gravity, black holes, quantum mechanics and mind-blowing concepts about other dimensions, superstring theories – a lot of it is theoretical because it’s based on or calculated through concepts or models, rather than experience – like in superstring theory so far, no one has invented a microscope powerful enough to see all the way down to where those vibrating loops are supposed to be. The most powerful microscope I know of is at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs – a $27 million electron microscope. Its ability to make images to a resolution of half the width of a hydrogen atom makes it the most powerful microscope in the world.
~ ~ ~ ~
Scientific truth gives us no criteria for metaphysical truth. Therefore, what is needed is another definition of truth for the metaphysical realm. In reading up on philosophy, I lean toward one theory of what truth is – it’s called the correspondence theory of truth“In metaphysics and philosophy of language, the correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs. This type of theory attempts to posit a relationship between thoughts or statements on one hand, and things or facts on the other.” From Wikipedia
So basically, truth consists in some form of connection…correlation…resemblance…agreement between a belief and a fact. For me, this gets into how I look at the Bible – and there’s a lot of ways to look at the Bible – even as a Christian.
I believe the Bible is metaphysical truth (metaphysical = in a transcendent sense or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses) – that it is a revelation from God – written by people inspired of God. Considering that people are not perfect, have worldviews shaped by their times and culture, I think the Bible is best understood as metaphysical truth and not as scientific truth. Consider the opening passage of the Bible - “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” – if I use the correspondence theory of truth, it seems reasonable that Genesis 1:1 might very well correlate with the big bang theory.
The big bang theory is one of scientists’ best guess on how the universe began – it is “the prevailing cosmological model explaining the existence of the observable universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution… the theory describes an increasingly concentrated cosmos preceded by a singularity in which space and time lose meaning (typically named "the Big Bang singularity")”(from Wikipedia - Big Bang ). In other words, the universe started with an infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity, then inflated — first at unimaginable speed, and then at a more measurable rate — over the next 13.8 billion years to the cosmos that we know today. The possible connection of Genesis 1:1 to the big bang theory could be that God is the one who created the infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity. But to be honest, this is just my warm and fuzzy way of relating a metaphysical truth to a scientific truth - in other words - that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
Edited by T-Bone The editor gets a big bang out of expanding typos - what?!?!? maybe that means with the progression of time mistakes get bigger? yikes !!!!
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Bolshevik
This is why I'm afraid of pan-dimensional mice trying to take my brain. . . . Asking me the big questions about Bat-Mite
42 Wordwolf. Just 42.
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Bolshevik
You could argue there are dimensions present that we lack perception to, and it's possible some beings can readily detect them as well.
Same could be said for the electromagnetic spectrum. Some people see colors others don't. Some are blind. Some animals see colors no human is able to. We can build instruments to detect wavelengths outside what our eyeballs can receive.
Same could be said with sound waves.
We all live in a narrow band of perception.
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OldSkool
Im thinking the universe is finite and God infinite, accordingly there is so much we just dont understand about God, life, Christ, the world, universe, etc. Even though the creation is finite theres so much we dont really understand. I guess thats what happens when the creation is corrupted and seperated by sin from it's creator. Anywho.
Im thinking there very could be other dimensions and such...that part is so far beyond me that the best I can do is expectantly wait for God to bring us along throughout eternity as we will see him face to face so to speak. But as far as a natural realm and a seperate spiritual realm as defined by the way international:? I think thats all garbage.
I feel that if anything that its man's perspective that changed after the fall. Meaning as a consequence of sin mankind was no longer to walk/talk face to face with God -- so to speak because God is spirit. So, while God may be right next to us at all times we dont necesarily "see" him or "sense" him in the same manner that humans interact.
Oh...where scripture talks about that which is "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"....TWI uses this verse to mark out two seperate realms: Physical/spiritual. I dont think thats what it says at all. I think in these verses in John Jesus was teaching that a new creation was coming and a man must be born again into that new creation. Whats born after the flesh is corrupted by sin. That which is born of the spirit is incorruptible seed that cannot sin. So we are talking about natures inherited from which source they originate. Flesh = corruption and death --- Spirit = incorruption and eternal life.
So, I imagine the world as it is and it works to imagine it as a flat/perhaps spherical plane in shape, while the firmament above is multi-dimensional in nature.
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T-Bone
One of my favorite TV shows growing up was The Outer Limits – and one of the most memorable episodes was The Outer Limits: Behold Eck! A two-dimensional alien, stranded in our three-dimensional world, inadvertently causes havoc in Los Angeles. Only a mild-mannered optician and his secretary have the power to help – it was pretty cool – if I remember correctly the optician fabricated a special lens for Eck to see the doorway to get back to his world.
I’m not familiar with Flatland…Theologian Alister McGrath – in his Understanding the Trinity book (I think) used a similar thought experiment to ponder how we humans living if living only in 2 dimensions could relate to a being that lives in more dimensions. I drew upon that idea in a recent post - here - where I said:
We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know!
And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know!
Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly.
Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?"
~ ~ ~ ~
I also touched on alternate dimensions on a couple of other threads - here and here .
~ ~ ~ ~
Our physical space is observed to have three large spatial dimensions and, along with time, is a boundless 4-dimensional continuum known as space-time continuum . Theoretical physicists have come up with a number of concepts that incorporate extra physical measurements describing more dimensions – from 10 to 26 dimensions!
This is fascinating to think about – how do we measure stuff?
Science uses various methods to quantify matter, energy, and the passage of time (time being the 4th dimension) . In concepts and mathematics, scientists theorize there are other dimensions – but currently there is no way to evaluate by observation or experimentation if they truly exist.
What criteria do we use for metaphysics ?
~ ~ ~ ~
The Logos – and some tidbits I picked up from studies of John 1
The Greeks had the concept of the Logos – which means two things – “word” and “reason”. “The Jew was entirely familiar with the all-powerful word of God. “God said, let there be light; and there was light” ( Genesis 1:3 ). The Greek was entirely familiar with the thought of reason. He looked at this world; he saw a magnificent and dependable order. Night and day came with unfailing regularity; the year kept its seasons in unvarying order; the stars and planets moved in their unaltering path; nature had unvarying laws. What produced this order? The Greek answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, is responsible for the majestic order of the world…What enables man to think, to reason and to know? Again he answered unhesitatingly, the Logos, the mind of God, dwelling within a man makes him a thinking rational being.
Another big idea that Greeks had was the concept of two worlds. One of the worlds was the one in which we live – a world of mere shadows and copies and reflections of another realm. To the Greeks this other unseen realm was considered the real world. Plato (Athenian philosopher, approx. 423 to 348 BC) is most famous for The Theory of Forms which is a philosophical worldview that the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas – which are the non-physical essences of all things, of which objects and matter in the physical world are merely imitations. The great challenge to philosophy was how to connect to this unseen reality…how to get out of the shadows and into the eternal truths. source John 1 - Barclay's Daily Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
~ ~ ~ ~
A recent development of humankind is virtual reality - the computer-generated simulation of a three-dimensional image or environment that can be interacted with in a seemingly real or physical way by a person using special electronic equipment, such as a helmet with a screen inside or gloves fitted with sensors…are we God’s virtual reality? Just kidding – but it makes me think of how a certain ‘reality’ is created.
In the early years of my work career, I was involved in the building and remodeling industries. Building materials and manufacturing processes have come a long way since then. It's not just lumber, concrete, plastic, steel, alloys, composite materials – there’s also 3-D printing for an entire house! Saw it on TV - it must be real
It's possible God could use alternate materials and methods for building other worlds – and the laws of physical science for those worlds…those alternate realities – would differ from ours…and just to define terms – for me anyway , if it’s anything that exists in a world created by God or by the creatures of God – that’s reality…Even if it’s other dimensions or other worlds that are undetectable to us – that’s an alternate reality – plain old reality for the residents of those worlds - and that means we are an alternate reality to them.
Edited by T-BoneNow editing in 26 dimensions...too many typos !!!!!
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OldSkool
I think that fits a lot of perspectives...Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. Where as divine is relating to God, with God being the highest in a classifications of spirit beings that are "higher" than ourselves. So otherworldly actually really communicates. But in this case God is otherworldly to the one we currently live and therein lies the crux of a perfect creator saving and redeeming an imperfect creation. Naturally, we dont truly understand the true nature of our creator considering the best we can do in these carbon based tabernacles is see through a glass darkly.
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OldSkool
Thats a really good point as to how relative perception really is and how that perception can vary depending on the specific anatomy of the ear. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans. Since its really the complex workings of the inner ear that translate these waves into electrical impulses and so on...
To quote Nikola Tesla: If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy, frequency, and vibration.
Perhaps the spirit realm (just to use a familiar overused cheesy term) is not so much a realm but a plane of existance we cant perceive. Bolsh, you essentially said the same thing when you stated "We all live in a narrow band of perception"
So who is to say as a consequence of the fall our perception was narrowed significantly to what we can currently perceive.
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T-Bone
That makes me circle back to superstring theory – theoretical physicists talk about strings or loops, and each vibrates at a unique frequency – and for some reason I always associate that with a gimmick in the 1999 animated sci-fi film The Iron Giant ...A young boy befriends a giant robot from outer space that a paranoid government agent wants to destroy…however the giant robot is friendly and saves a small town by deflecting a nuclear missile and is destroyed in the process. Parts of the robot are scattered across thousands of miles. At the end of the movie, each part appears to be emitting a frequency communicating with the head – and the parts become mobilized to reassemble – heading back to where the head is located…it’s one of my daughter’s favorite movies – mine too!
In 2010, my brother-in-law passed away, his wife asked me to share at the funeral. I read from I Corinthians 15 about the resurrection:
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I Corinthians 15
What is remarkable to think about is that the “spiritual body”…the “glorious” body – does not appear to be something God whips up out of thin air. Paul said “When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed…”(verse 37). So that gives me the idea that perhaps our new bodies are in part somewhat reconstituted from the old body – but with substantial improvements, upgrades, and advanced capabilities…Think about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Did the disciples find a fresh corpse in the grave? Nope! The body was missing!
And when Jesus appeared to the disciples in His resurrected form – He didn’t say “Hey guys, this feels really weird – I don’t feel like myself.” Jesus said, “It is I myself!”:
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Luke 24
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Soooooooo…thinking about superstring theory…vibrating strings…homing device built into the parts of a robot for a worst-case scenario reassembly…old bodies reconstructed into new…
New International Version
Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life…Philippians 4:3
What if some angels are keeping records of the unique frequency of the tiny bits of pure energy that are the smallest components of matter and force in each person. What if someone has been dead for thousands of years? What about bodies totally decomposed…became part of the soil or ocean…well…The First Law of Thermodynamics is one of the absolute physical laws of the universe – it states that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed see First Law of Thermodynamics (allaboutscience.org) …so is it possible that the sovereign creator of the cosmos could summon all the components of a specific frequency - wherever they are - and restore them into in a new…improved…enhanced form? Sounds like a herculean task, doesn’t it?
Ever thought about the creation story in the Bible?
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
There’s a lot that happened in that simple verse!
Remember vibrations? Frequencies?
The Big Bang theory predicts that the early universe was a very hot place and that as it expands, the gas within it cools. Thus the universe should be filled with radiation that is literally the remnant heat left over from the Big Bang, called the “cosmic microwave background", or CMB…
…According to the Big Bang theory, the frequency spectrum of the CMB should have this blackbody form. This was indeed measured with tremendous accuracy by the FIRAS experiment on NASA's COBE satellite…
…There is no alternative theory yet proposed that predicts this energy spectrum. The accurate measurement of its shape was another important test of the Big Bang theory…one of the most striking features about the cosmic microwave background is its uniformity…
…Only with very sensitive instruments, such as COBE and WMAP, can cosmologists detect fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background temperature. By studying these fluctuations, cosmologists can learn about the origin of galaxies and large scale structures of galaxies and they can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory.
From: WMAP Big Bang CMB Test (nasa.gov)
If you think keeping track of certain unique identifying frequencies for a bunch of humans is tough – think about being the project manager for the Big Bang – there’s a LOT OF OPERATIONS TO SUPERVISE FOR BILLIONS OF YEARS:
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As a side note on this creation stuff, I think Genesis 1 should be read as an ode to the Creator and not as a scientific textbook. I don’t think it gives enough detail to show exactly how God did it. And seeing how the cosmology of the ancient Hebrews and other cultures were similar – I think the chief difference with the Hebrew’s over other cosmologies was that the Creator was sovereign over all – indicated by His supreme authority to name everything and assign its function / purpose.
In other cultures, the sun, the earth, the moon, the stars, etc. were either considered gods and/or were managed by various gods…Other cultures might brag about their ‘franchise’ of certain gods. But the Hebrews could counter that those franchises were still under the jurisdiction of the Creator – the head God over all.
Some ideas from NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com
See also
Cosmology and Theology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
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And tying this into other thoughts on this thread – the Big Bang Theory is probably scientists’ best guess on how the known dimensions came about. It’s possible there are other dimensions…other universes that exist…it would be fascinating if there will be a streaming service in heaven so that we can binge-watch the creation of our world... and other worlds…imagine watching the series The 456th Universe Next Door: Season 15 trillionth; episode 4 – and it starts out “Previously on The 456th Universe Next Door…”
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Bolshevik
I was just thinking about this. I'm aware of and utilize all kinds of vibrations in science. But these vibrations can be measured, modeled, mathematically represented, and used in various applications. It's how we know what stars are made of.
When I say we live in a narrow band of perception, it's because that's the area homo sapiens sapiens evolved in. We express all things within that narrow perception.
I know some can claim "the universe is vibrations" and then go down some road where they start explaining all sorts of things because some idea popped into their heads, like healing themselves with crystals. . . . yeah we are immersed in infinite vibrations but that doesn't mean we make up the rules.
At some point in human evolution we became different than other life. We think of the future, and that creates anxiety. How do you deal with that? Our brains require further growth outside the womb, that makes us very dependent on the previous generation. How should we organize ourselves? Do we work together or not? Our frames are upright and exposed. Do you feel vulnerable being conscious of this? Why do you wear clothes? Our problems come from outside of us, and they also come from within us. We can guess what others are thinking based how much we understand ourselves. If I know what hurts me, then I know how to hurt you, and what you could do to me . .
The Fall in The Bible is a description of our perception of ourselves going from unawareness like a plant to the consciousness of the human condition . . .
So I don't see The Fall as much as an objective event exactly.
Where is God? The Bible says where two or more gather their He is. Is He subjective? When we gather do we all have to see objective reality to agree on something?
So other dimensions and vibrations and stuff, not really a search for God. Objectively speaking.
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Bolshevik
Eve looked with her eyes? Opening your eyes, like an awakening? A change in perception.
Or maybe The Fall was porno scene. You need eyes for that too.
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Bolshevik
I don't think I've heard The Fall used in a dimensional reference with Adam and Eve. Maybe Lucifer is pictured falling from the heavens.
But I think it's understood this is a fall in status. Adam and Eve cover themselves because of shame. God still found them. So who were they really hiding from?
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OldSkool
Ill respong in more depth later on the rest of your post but with me having a background in the occult I was exposed to all the junk with vibratory healing properties of this element or that...its all BS as far as what they claim. Im not saying there arent good vibrations vs bad vibrations...but that is subjective at best because maybe a bad vibration for the human body is something that is necessary and useful in some contexts. But anywho, just to be clear on this one point that we are on the same page....prob most other points too...I gotta go clean some windows...
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Bolshevik
The Bible is kinda two dimensional . . . Letters and words I mean . . . Those symbols are two dimensional (to our eyes)
A cathedral, with it's artwork and emense height, is three dimensional.
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Bolshevik
I think Joseph Cambell described that once.
Music might add more too. . . The whole experience together
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Nathan_Jr
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Bolshevik
Bad example?
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Nathan_Jr
Not at all.
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oldiesman
Heaven must be a whole lot bigger than we can possibly comprehend especially if the universe continues to expand indefinitely as some believe.
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Bolshevik
If a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day,
Wouldn't 3D space be similar?
Think of how cell biology utilizing surface area or Euclidean geometry makes the same volume seeming infinitely bigger?
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T-Bone
That’s assuming that the size of heaven correlates to the size of the universe.
What if the universe is a mere “bubble” inside the kingdom of heaven?
what if heaven was inter-dimensional ? Existing multidimensionally - in more than the 3 dimensions we can sense and measure - heaven existing in, through, around and beyond the physical universe?
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oldiesman
I believe it must be. It started with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Let's assume that the universe is more than a bubble but expanding indefinitely; then it's expanding in an already-existing heaven or heavens. I can't imagine... I think it's too big for human comprehension and when I focus on how big it all must be it gives me a headache.
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WordWolf
Thanks- that's the point I was trying to make. I have no idea how I left so many people behind on that one.
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T-Bone
You’re assuming Genesis 1:1 is referring to the creation of the eternal kingdom of God and the physical universe. the verse makes reference to the space-time continuum - - so what are you saying? God is limited to that?
But linguistically we know certain words in the Bible - and in many languages / cultures as well - can have different meanings depending on context. When Jesus talked about our Father in heaven already knows what we need - is Jesus saying the Father is up there somewhere in the universe? When Jesus ascended into heaven did he go somewhere out there in the universe?
Is it possible the kingdom of God - a spiritual (whatever that means) heaven existed before Genesis 1:1 ?
Isaiah 57:15 says God inhabits eternity. What does that mean? Eternity is infinity - unending - duration without beginning or end…Eternal life is entrance into the kingdom of God - what ? How? When?
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oldiesman
What I think I'm saying is that in the beginning the heavens were created as unlimited and accommodates an ever-expanding universe?
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T-Bone
Good answer.
You might like this article:
Sometimes, it's the simplest questions that have the most complicated answers. What's the speed of dark? What happened before the Big Bang? And if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? The answer to that last question has a short answer and a long answer — but trust us when we say you're going to want the long answer.
Here's the short answer: That question doesn't make sense. The universe is everything, so it isn't expanding into anything. It's just expanding. All of the galaxies in the universe are moving away from each other, and every region of space is being stretched, but there's no center they're expanding from and no outer edge to expand into anything else.
But that doesn't mean that the universe is infinite. That brings us to the long answer. To understand how something could be finite but have no edge, think of the fabric of the universe as the surface of a balloon. As the balloon inflates, the surface stretches and every point on that surface moves away from every other point, but a tiny being on the surface of that balloon could walk forever and never run into the edge of its balloon universe. There's no edge, yet that balloon universe has a finite volume.
The Shape of the Universe
But the balloon is just one example. Scientists aren't actually sure whether the universe is finite or infinite, or even what shape the universe is. There are three options: spherical, flat, or hyperbolic (that is, it curves upward). Evidence from the earliest light in the universe suggests that the second option is on the money, and the universe is, in fact, flat.
Even if the universe is flat and not balloon-shaped, however, it's still easy to think about how it could be finite with no edge. Think about a flat piece of paper. You could take two opposing edges and make them touch, creating a cylinder. If a tiny 2-dimensional rocket ship traveled from one of those edges to the other, it would arrive back where it started. You could do the same thing in the perpendicular direction: Connect the two ends of the tube to each other (pretend this is magically stretchy paper, for the sake of argument) and create a donut shape, also known as a torus. Now your 2-dimensional rocket ship could travel anywhere it likes, and it would never encounter an edge — even though your paper torus has finite volume.
But wait, you might be saying. Paper is flat; a torus is curved. Isn't that cheating? No, and that's because scientists have a very specific definition for the word "flat." When they say flat, they mean "Euclidean," which means that parallel lines always run parallel and the sum of the angles of a triangle is always exactly 180 degrees. This doesn't happen on a sphere or a hyperbola, but it does on a cylinder, a torus, and any other shape you can make out of a flat piece of paper.
This suggests something kind of exciting: If we live in a flat universe, you could potentially travel in one direction for long enough (or build a telescope that can see far enough) to end up right back where you started. Even cooler things happen when you think about other weird shapes — shapes that twist back on themselves could make you arrive back at a mirror image of where you started, for example.
But no matter what shape the universe is, it's not expanding into anything. There's nothing outside of the universe because the universe has no edge.
From: If the Universe Is Expanding, What Is It Expanding Into? | Latest Science News and Articles | Discovery
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I love topics like this because of the challenges to conventional thinking – and this also gets into what’s probably one of the most basic issues of Christianity – how to relate faith to reason.
Faith deals with revelation – or some supernatural disclosure which could not be discovered by the unaided powers of human reason. Reason is the natural ability of the human mind to discover truth. With science, truth is determined by verification – as in the scientific method – which is a lot of observation and experimentation. Flying a plane or launching a rocket into space are doable because scientists found out the truth about gravity – yes, it’s a law but they figured out ways to ‘work around it’ – using other laws of physics like velocity, thrust, lift, etc.… Science is practical – if it works, it’s true…
…but then there are theoretical physicists – they are curious about the nature of reality and the origin of the universe. They use mathematics and logic to create and test models of physical phenomena, such as gravity, black holes, quantum mechanics and mind-blowing concepts about other dimensions, superstring theories – a lot of it is theoretical because it’s based on or calculated through concepts or models, rather than experience – like in superstring theory so far, no one has invented a microscope powerful enough to see all the way down to where those vibrating loops are supposed to be. The most powerful microscope I know of is at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs – a $27 million electron microscope. Its ability to make images to a resolution of half the width of a hydrogen atom makes it the most powerful microscope in the world.
~ ~ ~ ~
Scientific truth gives us no criteria for metaphysical truth. Therefore, what is needed is another definition of truth for the metaphysical realm. In reading up on philosophy, I lean toward one theory of what truth is – it’s called the correspondence theory of truth “In metaphysics and philosophy of language, the correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs. This type of theory attempts to posit a relationship between thoughts or statements on one hand, and things or facts on the other.” From Wikipedia
So basically, truth consists in some form of connection…correlation…resemblance…agreement between a belief and a fact. For me, this gets into how I look at the Bible – and there’s a lot of ways to look at the Bible – even as a Christian.
I believe the Bible is metaphysical truth (metaphysical = in a transcendent sense or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses) – that it is a revelation from God – written by people inspired of God. Considering that people are not perfect, have worldviews shaped by their times and culture, I think the Bible is best understood as metaphysical truth and not as scientific truth. Consider the opening passage of the Bible - “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” – if I use the correspondence theory of truth, it seems reasonable that Genesis 1:1 might very well correlate with the big bang theory.
Edited by T-BoneThe big bang theory is one of scientists’ best guess on how the universe began – it is “the prevailing cosmological model explaining the existence of the observable universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution… the theory describes an increasingly concentrated cosmos preceded by a singularity in which space and time lose meaning (typically named "the Big Bang singularity")” (from Wikipedia - Big Bang ). In other words, the universe started with an infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity, then inflated — first at unimaginable speed, and then at a more measurable rate — over the next 13.8 billion years to the cosmos that we know today. The possible connection of Genesis 1:1 to the big bang theory could be that God is the one who created the infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity. But to be honest, this is just my warm and fuzzy way of relating a metaphysical truth to a scientific truth - in other words - that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
The editor gets a big bang out of expanding typos - what?!?!? maybe that means with the progression of time mistakes get bigger? yikes !!!!
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