I read Starr Daily’s work Love Can Open Prison Doors. It is a powerful account about his time in prison and changing the lives of many and his ultimate release from the prison.
I’m sure some of his view has to do with overcoming his past.
He seems to share that with Paul.
Who knows what VP used it for. Maybe making excuses for ongoing missing the mark idk.
1. "The aim is meant to be on the target, but when we let go of the arrow, it misses the mark. "
If, by "aiming for the target", he means having honest intentions, then Wierwille didn't just miss the target, he failed to aim for it.
2. "Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace."
Wierwille lacked self awareness that his acts were sinful.
3. "Is this where the lockbox doctrine originated? That your heart being right before God allows sin to be turned to grace?"
No. the lockbox was another way of saying, "This will be our little secret."
As usual, seems they were all entwined in new thought one way or another..Im not saying that nullifies the rest of their works...just noting it for the record.
As usual, seems they were all entwined in new thought one way or another..Im not saying that nullifies the rest of their works...just noting it for the record.
Who is that “new thought” group? The book just reads like a personal account of each chapter love freeing Starr from something. Are they parasites trying to stake a claim?
No. the lockbox was another way of saying, "This will be our little secret."
Were the lockbox and the little secrets used as leverage when enforcing loyalty? Was it a kind of dangling shame as leverage for blackmail and compliance?
I may be misremembering the timeline, but it seems like the big push for the personal, private inventories came at a time when cracks started to appear in the levee, when factions of CORPS started leaving, when victor first began to realize he might be too far out over his skis.
Who is that “new thought” group? The book just reads like a personal account of each chapter love freeing Starr from something. Are they parasites trying to stake a claim?
Were the lockbox and the little secrets used as leverage when enforcing loyalty? Was it a kind of dangling shame as leverage for blackmail and compliance?
I may be misremembering the timeline, but it seems like the big push for the personal, private inventories came at a time when cracks started to appear in the levee, when factions of CORPS started leaving, when victor first began to realize he might be too far out over his skis.
Am I off track?
Thats a really intersesting angle where the stage had certainly been set.
1. "The aim is meant to be on the target, but when we let go of the arrow, it misses the mark. "
If, by "aiming for the target", he means having honest intentions, then Wierwille didn't just miss the target, he failed to aim for it.
2. "Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace."
Wierwille lacked self awareness that his acts were sinful.
3. "Is this where the lockbox doctrine originated? That your heart being right before God allows sin to be turned to grace?"
No. the lockbox was another way of saying, "This will be our little secret."
Starr Daily had a goal, and, as such, he partly described sin correctly, and partly did not. Starr Daily was more about turning your life around- but he light-pedaled REPENTING. A genuine knowledge that you did wrong, regret you did, and asking for forgiveness, as well as an attempt to do better. If the wrong person reads what he wrote (like vpw), then it becomes a matter of "change your thinking and sin becomes grace".
Also, when one sins, one does "miss the mark", but that's not ALL there is to sin. By reducing it to that, vpw made it easier to dismiss. Then, when vpw soften sin further to "BROKEN FELLOWSHIP" - a CONSEQUENCE of sin but not the sin itself- then it became easy to MECHANICALLY remove sin from one's THINKING. One need not dwell CONTINUOUSLY on the problem of sin and of sinning, but the opposite is at least as bad- being unaware one is even sinning. It's easy put one's conscience to sleep this way- and vpw sure did.
Were the lockbox and the little secrets used as leverage when enforcing loyalty? Was it a kind of dangling shame as leverage for blackmail and compliance?
I may be misremembering the timeline, but it seems like the big push for the personal, private inventories came at a time when cracks started to appear in the levee, when factions of CORPS started leaving, when victor first began to realize he might be too far out over his skis.
Am I off track?
The "from birth to the corps" papers were initially all to help vpw figure out who he could most successfully rape. It was only later that other uses, like possible blackmail, may have come up.
Personally, I think I would have submitted a paper that was carefully written and 100% lies. After all, if they really need to know, I can't fool God- they'd get revelation on what I wrote. (And that was my thinking BEFORE all this! Aren't they glad I never signed up?)
One thing he may have gotten from Starr Daily is the tendency to cheapen Greek study. No language is solely the construction of each word, each word can have meanings completely unrelated to their construction, especially over time. "Manufacturing" now means assembly lines and robots. The word originally meant "hand-made", so that's almost the opposite of what it meant once.
But as someone who was neither skilled nor motivated to study language, vpw found the lazy method quite useful, certainly in practice.
Starr Daily had a goal, and, as such, he partly described sin correctly, and partly did not. Starr Daily was more about turning your life around- but he light-pedaled REPENTING. A genuine knowledge that you did wrong, regret you did, and asking for forgiveness, as well as an attempt to do better.
A.A. Twelve Steps step 4-10.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
I have a lot of respect for what AA accomplishes if an alcoholic is willing to follow along. As a recovering alcoholic I have incorporated many of these steps into my life with scripture and prayer at the root of it all. The steps they lay out are very appropriate in dealing with sin and how a persons sin has affected not only themselves, but others as well.
Starr Daily had a goal, and, as such, he partly described sin correctly, and partly did not. Starr Daily was more about turning your life around- but he light-pedaled REPENTING. A genuine knowledge that you did wrong, regret you did, and asking for forgiveness, as well as an attempt to do better. If the wrong person reads what he wrote (like vpw), then it becomes a matter of "change your thinking and sin becomes grace".
Also, when one sins, one does "miss the mark", but that's not ALL there is to sin. By reducing it to that, vpw made it easier to dismiss. Then, when vpw soften sin further to "BROKEN FELLOWSHIP" - a CONSEQUENCE of sin but not the sin itself- then it became easy to MECHANICALLY remove sin from one's THINKING. One need not dwell CONTINUOUSLY on the problem of sin and of sinning, but the opposite is at least as bad- being unaware one is even sinning. It's easy put one's conscience to sleep this way- and vpw sure did.
I think this is where I am inspired by Starr Daily's accounts of his life and how the Lord turned things around for him. So, with that said, I am definately not trying to cheapen his experiences at the expense of doctrinal points. Love does rule the day, and love does trump doctrinal issues. With that said, Starr definately didn't understand sin as described in Romans. Which is fine. The man said nothing wrong when he said sin was missing the mark, perhaps he needed a more thorough understanding on the subject. So he definately light pedaled repenting. Whether he did that on purpose or whether that was out of ignorance is not for me to say. What I can speak on is wierwille definately took the ball and ran with it for his own greedy lusts and gain.
Wierwille entire take on sin is bogus. wierwille taught that a person only could repent once and that was at the new birth. After that you just confess your broken fellowship and change what habits are causing you to miss the mark. He also taught as long as you dont stumble somebody's believing you are basically ok to live your life as you see fit, with exceptions defined by wierwille, as long as you arent a stumbling block.
Then theres the concept of walking in fellowship. With a believer doing great works whilst in fellowship and not able to do great works whilst out of fellowship. Kinda like jumping back and forth into a directed floodlight from outside its focus to being in its light...kinda goofy and unscriptural in its application.
Jesus Christ taught if your eye offends you then pluck it out. Obviously the emphasis is on doing whatever it takes to not sin. Jesus Christ fought against sin with his own sacrifice as our passover that was offered for the sins of the world, though Jesus Christ was sinless. Considering the price he paid and the problems sin causes I would say it needs to be recognized, repented of, asked forgiveness from, and all in the context of a person fighting with all their might to not sin and repent when they do. Not just say Im sorry and do the same thing again tomorrow. I mean we likely all fall into that at times and that is what it is and Im not judging anybodys walk. My point is a person sees the wrong in their own lives and does all the can to eventually change and that can be a process. But the hearts cry is the same....Obviously theres more to it than that but just summarizing a few points on the topic.
On the other hand you have people like wierwille who minimize sin, they rationalize it all away using grace and mercy as a cloak of covetousness. They continue on in their sins on purpose and set their own reality like a stage and invite victims to come play. Then the sin is rationalized away, yet the devastating effects of those sins are left on the victims who realize now they were played. Anywho...just some morning thoughts here...
One thing he may have gotten from Starr Daily is the tendency to cheapen Greek study. No language is solely the construction of each word, each word can have meanings completely unrelated to their construction, especially over time. "Manufacturing" now means assembly lines and robots. The word originally meant "hand-made", so that's almost the opposite of what it meant once.
But as someone who was neither skilled nor motivated to study language, vpw found the lazy method quite useful, certainly in practice.
I think this sort of thing is systemic in the way international. I mean wierwille set the ultimate bad example with his dog and pony show all the while shouting to Walter who was armed with a concordance to verify some Greek word during his presentations. Wierwille's greek sucked and the classes they taught us in residence sucked to the point of me declaring them epic failures. Concordances and lexicons can be helpful but the way we use them in the way international is a joke. Just as in English, any given Greek word can have multiple shades of meaning and its a somewhat complicated affair sorting out exactly which one fits the translation at hand. Yet, how many times did I grab my concordance while prepping a teaching and grab the shade of meaning that suited my purposes. Sadly I fell into the same trap as a follower of the way international that most of us did. I dont relish the memories of my time in the ditch from following bling guides but one thing I have learned for sure....Im no Greek scholar and have no business trying to re-translate the Bible. I still use concordances and such but no longer allow them to define scripture for me and no longer think I have some college level understading of Koine Greek because the $h!T bag classes taught to us at Gunnison were horribly sub-standard.
I think this is where I am inspired by Starr Daily's accounts of his life and how the Lord turned things around for him. So, with that said, I am definately not trying to cheapen his experiences at the expense of doctrinal points. Love does rule the day, and love does trump doctrinal issues. With that said, Starr definately didn't understand sin as described in Romans. Which is fine. The man said nothing wrong when he said sin was missing the mark, perhaps he needed a more thorough understanding on the subject. So he definately light pedaled repenting. Whether he did that on purpose or whether that was out of ignorance is not for me to say. What I can speak on is wierwille definately took the ball and ran with it for his own greedy lusts and gain.
Wierwille entire take on sin is bogus. wierwille taught that a person only could repent once and that was at the new birth. After that you just confess your broken fellowship and change what habits are causing you to miss the mark. He also taught as long as you dont stumble somebody's believing you are basically ok to live your life as you see fit, with exceptions defined by wierwille, as long as you arent a stumbling block.
Then theres the concept of walking in fellowship. With a believer doing great works whilst in fellowship and not able to do great works whilst out of fellowship. Kinda like jumping back and forth into a directed floodlight from outside its focus to being in its light...kinda goofy and unscriptural in its application.
Jesus Christ taught if your eye offends you then pluck it out. Obviously the emphasis is on doing whatever it takes to not sin. Jesus Christ fought against sin with his own sacrifice as our passover that was offered for the sins of the world, though Jesus Christ was sinless. Considering the price he paid and the problems sin causes I would say it needs to be recognized, repented of, asked forgiveness from, and all in the context of a person fighting with all their might to not sin and repent when they do. Not just say Im sorry and do the same thing again tomorrow. I mean we likely all fall into that at times and that is what it is and Im not judging anybodys walk. My point is a person sees the wrong in their own lives and does all the can to eventually change and that can be a process. But the hearts cry is the same....Obviously theres more to it than that but just summarizing a few points on the topic.
On the other hand you have people like wierwille who minimize sin, they rationalize it all away using grace and mercy as a cloak of covetousness. They continue on in their sins on purpose and set their own reality like a stage and invite victims to come play. Then the sin is rationalized away, yet the devastating effects of those sins are left on the victims who realize now they were played. Anywho...just some morning thoughts here...
I think what struck me most about his accounts were that he viewed love as an action verb. Instead of a passing feeling, he was more about the transformative effect of love to change a person for the better.
All of his definitions fit very well within what a parole board is looking for, as well as his good works. I’m sure that his environment shaped his understanding.
I usually only pick up one main idea I carry away with me from a book I read mostly. In this case it was the transformative quality of love.
VPW was a rationalization looking for an excuse. I’m sure he marginalized sin. I don’t pick up the same vibe from Starrs book but that’s me.
"Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace."
Thoughts?
I would agree with that as long as one confesses their sin first. I believe the RC church has the best process to confess sin, which is to confess to a priest which I've experienced to be very therapeutic and almost like hearing a "word of prophesy" to you from the Holy Spirit by way of the priest.
Bling (Merriam Webster) The meaning of BLING isflashy jewelry worn especially as an indication of wealth or status; broadly : expensive and ostentatious ...
Pretty much what TWI was: flashy, looking expensive (rare knowledge) and ostentatious (We're the only ones who know this! Pin back your ears!)
OldSkool: you probably meant "blind guides" but "bling" seems to sorta fit...
2. "Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace."
Not sure this is true. Where did VPW get this "claim"?
It's not "awareness" of fault, but genuine repentance and a change of lifestyle that will "transform into grace."
One thing he may have gotten from Starr Daily is the tendency to cheapen Greek study. No language is solely the construction of each word, each word can have meanings completely unrelated to their construction, especially over time. "Manufacturing" now means assembly lines and robots. The word originally meant "hand-made", so that's almost the opposite of what it meant once.
But as someone who was neither skilled nor motivated to study language, vpw found the lazy method quite useful, certainly in practice.
Yeah koine Greek is not a spoken language today. That’s why I think Fundamentalism is a fools game.
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chockfull
I read Starr Daily’s work Love Can Open Prison Doors. It is a powerful account about his time in prison and changing the lives of many and his ultimate release from the prison.
I’m sure some of his view has to do with overcoming his past.
He seems to share that with Paul.
Who knows what VP used it for. Maybe making excuses for ongoing missing the mark idk.
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Nathan_Jr
Is that all you have to do?
What is the Hebrew or Aramaic word for sin?
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OldSkool
https://s3.amazonaws.com/truthunity/assets/books/starr-daily-love-can-open-prison-doors/starr-daily-love-can-open-prison-doors.pdf
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waysider
Three things come to mind.
1. "The aim is meant to be on the target, but when we let go of the arrow, it misses the mark. "
If, by "aiming for the target", he means having honest intentions, then Wierwille didn't just miss the target, he failed to aim for it.
2. "Even if your acts are sinful and self-focused, the moment you become aware of that and decide to act out of love, faith, humility, generosity, kindness, and a love of God, God transforms your sin into grace."
Wierwille lacked self awareness that his acts were sinful.
3. "Is this where the lockbox doctrine originated? That your heart being right before God allows sin to be turned to grace?"
No. the lockbox was another way of saying, "This will be our little secret."
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OldSkool
As usual, seems they were all entwined in new thought one way or another..Im not saying that nullifies the rest of their works...just noting it for the record.
https://www.truthunity.net/books/starr-daily-love-can-open-prison-doors
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OldSkool
Fair enough. And ewww so creepy....
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chockfull
Who is that “new thought” group? The book just reads like a personal account of each chapter love freeing Starr from something. Are they parasites trying to stake a claim?
What is “New Thought”?
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chockfull
I mean VP was surely grasping at any available straw to justify his behavior. It may have been his own private Idaho.
If Glenn Clark and Starr had some other scam going on I was never aware of it.
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Nathan_Jr
Were the lockbox and the little secrets used as leverage when enforcing loyalty? Was it a kind of dangling shame as leverage for blackmail and compliance?
I may be misremembering the timeline, but it seems like the big push for the personal, private inventories came at a time when cracks started to appear in the levee, when factions of CORPS started leaving, when victor first began to realize he might be too far out over his skis.
Am I off track?
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OldSkool
https://eyesupandopen.org/
Theres better sources than the link but for convenience sake...
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OldSkool
Im not aware of anything.
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OldSkool
Thats a really intersesting angle where the stage had certainly been set.
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WordWolf
Starr Daily had a goal, and, as such, he partly described sin correctly, and partly did not. Starr Daily was more about turning your life around- but he light-pedaled REPENTING. A genuine knowledge that you did wrong, regret you did, and asking for forgiveness, as well as an attempt to do better. If the wrong person reads what he wrote (like vpw), then it becomes a matter of "change your thinking and sin becomes grace".
Also, when one sins, one does "miss the mark", but that's not ALL there is to sin. By reducing it to that, vpw made it easier to dismiss. Then, when vpw soften sin further to "BROKEN FELLOWSHIP" - a CONSEQUENCE of sin but not the sin itself- then it became easy to MECHANICALLY remove sin from one's THINKING. One need not dwell CONTINUOUSLY on the problem of sin and of sinning, but the opposite is at least as bad- being unaware one is even sinning. It's easy put one's conscience to sleep this way- and vpw sure did.
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WordWolf
The "from birth to the corps" papers were initially all to help vpw figure out who he could most successfully rape. It was only later that other uses, like possible blackmail, may have come up.
Personally, I think I would have submitted a paper that was carefully written and 100% lies. After all, if they really need to know, I can't fool God- they'd get revelation on what I wrote. (And that was my thinking BEFORE all this! Aren't they glad I never signed up?)
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WordWolf
One thing he may have gotten from Starr Daily is the tendency to cheapen Greek study. No language is solely the construction of each word, each word can have meanings completely unrelated to their construction, especially over time. "Manufacturing" now means assembly lines and robots. The word originally meant "hand-made", so that's almost the opposite of what it meant once.
But as someone who was neither skilled nor motivated to study language, vpw found the lazy method quite useful, certainly in practice.
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Nathan_Jr
A.A. Twelve Steps step 4-10.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
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OldSkool
I have a lot of respect for what AA accomplishes if an alcoholic is willing to follow along. As a recovering alcoholic I have incorporated many of these steps into my life with scripture and prayer at the root of it all. The steps they lay out are very appropriate in dealing with sin and how a persons sin has affected not only themselves, but others as well.
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OldSkool
I think this is where I am inspired by Starr Daily's accounts of his life and how the Lord turned things around for him. So, with that said, I am definately not trying to cheapen his experiences at the expense of doctrinal points. Love does rule the day, and love does trump doctrinal issues. With that said, Starr definately didn't understand sin as described in Romans. Which is fine. The man said nothing wrong when he said sin was missing the mark, perhaps he needed a more thorough understanding on the subject. So he definately light pedaled repenting. Whether he did that on purpose or whether that was out of ignorance is not for me to say. What I can speak on is wierwille definately took the ball and ran with it for his own greedy lusts and gain.
Wierwille entire take on sin is bogus. wierwille taught that a person only could repent once and that was at the new birth. After that you just confess your broken fellowship and change what habits are causing you to miss the mark. He also taught as long as you dont stumble somebody's believing you are basically ok to live your life as you see fit, with exceptions defined by wierwille, as long as you arent a stumbling block.
Then theres the concept of walking in fellowship. With a believer doing great works whilst in fellowship and not able to do great works whilst out of fellowship. Kinda like jumping back and forth into a directed floodlight from outside its focus to being in its light...kinda goofy and unscriptural in its application.
Jesus Christ taught if your eye offends you then pluck it out. Obviously the emphasis is on doing whatever it takes to not sin. Jesus Christ fought against sin with his own sacrifice as our passover that was offered for the sins of the world, though Jesus Christ was sinless. Considering the price he paid and the problems sin causes I would say it needs to be recognized, repented of, asked forgiveness from, and all in the context of a person fighting with all their might to not sin and repent when they do. Not just say Im sorry and do the same thing again tomorrow. I mean we likely all fall into that at times and that is what it is and Im not judging anybodys walk. My point is a person sees the wrong in their own lives and does all the can to eventually change and that can be a process. But the hearts cry is the same....Obviously theres more to it than that but just summarizing a few points on the topic.
On the other hand you have people like wierwille who minimize sin, they rationalize it all away using grace and mercy as a cloak of covetousness. They continue on in their sins on purpose and set their own reality like a stage and invite victims to come play. Then the sin is rationalized away, yet the devastating effects of those sins are left on the victims who realize now they were played. Anywho...just some morning thoughts here...
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OldSkool
I think this sort of thing is systemic in the way international. I mean wierwille set the ultimate bad example with his dog and pony show all the while shouting to Walter who was armed with a concordance to verify some Greek word during his presentations. Wierwille's greek sucked and the classes they taught us in residence sucked to the point of me declaring them epic failures. Concordances and lexicons can be helpful but the way we use them in the way international is a joke. Just as in English, any given Greek word can have multiple shades of meaning and its a somewhat complicated affair sorting out exactly which one fits the translation at hand. Yet, how many times did I grab my concordance while prepping a teaching and grab the shade of meaning that suited my purposes. Sadly I fell into the same trap as a follower of the way international that most of us did. I dont relish the memories of my time in the ditch from following bling guides but one thing I have learned for sure....Im no Greek scholar and have no business trying to re-translate the Bible. I still use concordances and such but no longer allow them to define scripture for me and no longer think I have some college level understading of Koine Greek because the $h!T bag classes taught to us at Gunnison were horribly sub-standard.
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chockfull
I think what struck me most about his accounts were that he viewed love as an action verb. Instead of a passing feeling, he was more about the transformative effect of love to change a person for the better.
All of his definitions fit very well within what a parole board is looking for, as well as his good works. I’m sure that his environment shaped his understanding.
I usually only pick up one main idea I carry away with me from a book I read mostly. In this case it was the transformative quality of love.
VPW was a rationalization looking for an excuse. I’m sure he marginalized sin. I don’t pick up the same vibe from Starrs book but that’s me.
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oldiesman
I would agree with that as long as one confesses their sin first. I believe the RC church has the best process to confess sin, which is to confess to a priest which I've experienced to be very therapeutic and almost like hearing a "word of prophesy" to you from the Holy Spirit by way of the priest.
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Twinky
Bling (Merriam Webster) The meaning of BLING is flashy jewelry worn especially as an indication of wealth or status; broadly : expensive and ostentatious ...
Pretty much what TWI was: flashy, looking expensive (rare knowledge) and ostentatious (We're the only ones who know this! Pin back your ears!)
OldSkool: you probably meant "blind guides" but "bling" seems to sorta fit...
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Twinky
Not sure this is true. Where did VPW get this "claim"?
It's not "awareness" of fault, but genuine repentance and a change of lifestyle that will "transform into grace."
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chockfull
Yeah koine Greek is not a spoken language today. That’s why I think Fundamentalism is a fools game.
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