Some of you guys who were there into the 2000's (and after craig high-tailed it to Toledo in the dark of night).... experienced the changes and probably know the details.
Well, I can't accurately speak about anything concerning rosalie/donna's (or whomever else from the director/trustee household (as they call themselves)) monetary compensation because that really is some top secret type stuff. The only ones who would know are part of the group and they arent talking at the moment. Now, that doesnt mean someone wont pop along and offer better insight tha I am able.
What I can accurately speak about are the changes they made moving from need base total ripoff arrangement to what was in place when I was on staff. They had to get off the need basis stuff because they were breaking a multitude of human-resource related laws with the old system. Whether those laws were in place when it didnt snow on the gas pumps in July of 1942 I dont know, but it was a problem in 2000. The way it used to be (and Im saying this for people who dont know and are reading along) you got a "pre-tithed" paycheck that was next to nothing. It basically covered toiletries, light groceries, gas, and not much else. Housing was provided, meals were provided, haircuts were provided, auto-service work was provided to a degree, etc. And they could basically make you work a butt load of hours -- in the old days staffers were basically indentured servants. If you were on staff you had no choice to accept this garbage or you would get fired. This arrangement came to a screeching halt in 99/2000.
So, the way international did all they could to grudingly appear legit to anyone who cared to look. The directors were supposed to stop taking private innurements, rent was charged for housing, way styles charged for haircuts, foodservices started charging a meal package to those who wanted it, and they basically paid everyone minimum wages with 6 hours of required overtime. They called this new pay arrangement "salaried staff paid on an hourly basis" --- which was an outright contradiction in terms and a lie. What they were really doing was paying minimum wage for 40 hours and allowing 6 hours at time and a half as a way to hide that they were still dishing out peanuts for pay and they want to entice staff...so what better way than to obfuscate matters than make up contradictary statements....typical way international dishonesty. Everyone was required to put in 46 hours a week period. Each cabinet area had an overtime bank that we alloted and double time could be approved if needed...snowremoval for example...but anything over 52 hours required director approval. To be fair an individual would make better money if they had a good skill set...I had a good skill set, was actually salaried, was in the upper ecehelon of idiots and still was able to put my family on medicaid with out a hitch.
Now, I don't know if TWI ever paid a pension or paid attention...haha..but I do know that they came up with a fairly cheesy and mostly useless 401k retirement plan. It was heavily tiered towards seniority so all the lifers and old timers came out ok considering the cost of living in New Knoxville. I don't know the employer/employee match ratios only that it wasnt much and was heavily tilted to take care of the directors and long serving staffers. They also came up with a PTO plan and insurance. Again PTO was heavily based on seniority...first year staffers got 40 hours of PTO and that was for anytime off...genorous no? The lame @$$ insurance plan had a $10,000 lifetime max and afterwards they would show you how to sign up for medicaid. Put it in perspective. I was a department coordinator and on the cabinet and my entire family (married couple with one child) went on medicaid without so much as a hitch. Thats how poorly we were paid after the need basis stuff went by the wayside.
Now: I am completly sure that the directors take care of each other, even when they fired craig I understand he got a salary for a number of years. Im sure Rosalie, Donna, John Reynolds, Howard...Im sure they are all plugged and taken care of. The rest of us were plebes, even ones like myself who were in the upper leadership brackets, walking around with an ego the size of texas and worked half to death were still getting screwed over.
Field leadership are volunteers unless you meet requirements to be paid staff. At which point you are considered paid staff and everything I noted above applies and the staff handbook would apply in full force, which means you had better protections from harassment and such. Volunteers get none of that and have no system of redress and have to just eat $h!t to remain way corps. Now, I left twi in 2008 so this is not current events. Im not sure what changes have been made, what improvements have happened. When I was on staff there was an ongoing exodus and very few people wanted to come work at HQ because word gets around that the way international largely ignores it's fiduciary responsibiities to their staff...except what they absolutely have to provide...and at that they provide the bare minimum. Maybe thats changed....my department had 18 people and within 5 years, through attrition, we were staffed with 9 people. I literally had to figure out how to get it done with half the people needed to meet requirements. I understand that staff levels are lower than when I was around and even back then they started bringing in advanced class grads to staff the advanced classes and their only compensation was meals and sitting through the class again. Perhaps with less staff they have started paying better...but I wont speculate anything along those lines because whether right, wrong, I try to avoid baselss speculation like assuming the way international will do the right thing and realize that the laborer is worthy of his hire.
Perhaps it's time for someone to access their public financial accounts again. See what their current reserves/cash in hand are, and what's been paid out in salaries.
Perhaps it's time for someone to access their public financial accounts again. See what their current reserves/cash in hand are, and what's been paid out in salaries.
They figured out how to get around stating their assets on public filings. I havent tried too hard lately and probably will again in the future...but after I had posted the numbers here back in 2009 or so they ceased revealing those tasty little morsels...
They figured out how to get around stating their assets on public filings. I havent tried too hard lately and probably will again in the future...but after I had posted the numbers here back in 2009 or so they ceased revealing those tasty little morsels...
Yes non profits were required to show their books in the state of Arizona I remember. So you could see the reports through the fog years. I don’t remember but thought they may have actually got rid of the state bookstore to get around this requirement.
Most non profits make their books transparent. Sheesh even the ex President Trump was forced to disclose financials.
Who doesn’t show their books as a non profit? Organizations with something to hide, to the extent they are afraid of losing their non profit status.
Hidden books are never a good thing.
I never received compensation for much of anything as field Corps. We were mostly “putting together classes” through most of my time. Pension? Lol. Not even gas reimbursement or enough approved expense to do anything even hold meetings. I remember so many times having to search for a new meeting place because the apartment complex raised their big room rental prices because they really don’t want it used as a church. Or fire houses free to use were the biggest. Or libraries.
And the biggest evil impact was to my own mind, corralled into looking at every person in society I ran across like a piece of meat with the potential to be a new student in the class. There was no way anybody put classes together outside of a hard sell, and usually that was with people with major apparent problems.
People seldom want to go to a regular church that is mainstream not culty and does spend money locally.
So the pressure to “run a class” was always there. And various methods were used to keep that going, from “Word Over The World” slogans, to getting “extra help” to put together classes which usually meant non local people bringing the homeless to fellowship. I remember top leaders giving admonitions to witness to people with “teeth a car and a job” as that was mostly missing in many of the new student groups.
With all of the underlying factors still in place it is completely ludicrous to think that a nicer person is going to change that substantially. Maybe for a short time. But probably not even that.
They figured out how to get around stating their assets on public filings. I havent tried too hard lately and probably will again in the future...but after I had posted the numbers here back in 2009 or so they ceased revealing those tasty little morsels...
My understanding is said public data was accessed from filings twi made to the Arizona Corporation Commission. However, years ago, the Arizona Legislature changed disclosure requirements such that ostensible nonprofits like twi no longer need to so disclose.
I don’t remember but thought they may have actually got rid of the state bookstore to get around this requirement.
3 minutes ago, Rocky said:
My understanding is said public data was accessed from filings twi made to the Arizona Corporation Commission. However, years ago, the Arizona Legislature changed disclosure requirements such that ostensible nonprofits like twi no longer need to so disclose.
Thanks!! I think either one may have been at play, but the disclosure requirements changing makes sense as well. Closing the bookstore is plausible as well...they love their paying their retainers...lol...sounds just like something a lawyer would advise.
I can understand payment on a "need" basis - as long as it applies to everyone - especially those at the helm! Can you see VPW, Craig or Rosalie living on a need basis? Or the other head honchos? Nah, me neither. Can't speak for Vern; he was on staff and thus paid on a "need" basis.
And the "need" needs to be fully costed - including provision for current needs (reliable cars, family time including ability to visit distant family) - and future needs, especially retirement planning.
God gives generously. Therefore, there is no need to pay stingily. Such is not reflective of God's abundance.
I can understand payment on a "need" basis - as long as it applies to everyone - especially those at the helm! Can you see VPW, Craig or Rosalie living on a need basis? Or the other head honchos? Nah, me neither. Can't speak for Vern; he was on staff and thus paid on a "need" basis.
Yeah that never happened...for a young single apprentice corps guy the told me what my need was...never an interview process or anything to actually determine what my need actally was.
I don’t remember but thought they may have actually got rid of the state bookstore to get around this requirement.
Arizona doesn't have a state bookstore. Never has. Not sure to what you were actually referring. But the legislature DID get rid of the nonprofit financial reporting requirement. The records were kept by the AZ Corporation Commission. They didn't get rid of the ACC either. It's established by the state constitution and it primarily regulates utility rates. It won't be eliminated anytime soon.
Arizona doesn't have a state bookstore. Never has. Not sure to what you were actually referring. But the legislature DID get rid of the nonprofit financial reporting requirement. The records were kept by the AZ Corporation Commission. They didn't get rid of the ACC either. It's established by the state constitution and it primarily regulates utility rates. It won't be eliminated anytime soon.
No I believe they disbanded the TWI in state bookstore to avoid the reporting requirements. Yes they along with most states run a bookstore for TWI or used to. I do think the law changed after that. I’m not referring to state government entities.
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OldSkool
Well, I can't accurately speak about anything concerning rosalie/donna's (or whomever else from the director/trustee household (as they call themselves)) monetary compensation because that really is some top secret type stuff. The only ones who would know are part of the group and they arent talking at the moment. Now, that doesnt mean someone wont pop along and offer better insight tha I am able.
What I can accurately speak about are the changes they made moving from need base total ripoff arrangement to what was in place when I was on staff. They had to get off the need basis stuff because they were breaking a multitude of human-resource related laws with the old system. Whether those laws were in place when it didnt snow on the gas pumps in July of 1942 I dont know, but it was a problem in 2000. The way it used to be (and Im saying this for people who dont know and are reading along) you got a "pre-tithed" paycheck that was next to nothing. It basically covered toiletries, light groceries, gas, and not much else. Housing was provided, meals were provided, haircuts were provided, auto-service work was provided to a degree, etc. And they could basically make you work a butt load of hours -- in the old days staffers were basically indentured servants. If you were on staff you had no choice to accept this garbage or you would get fired. This arrangement came to a screeching halt in 99/2000.
So, the way international did all they could to grudingly appear legit to anyone who cared to look. The directors were supposed to stop taking private innurements, rent was charged for housing, way styles charged for haircuts, foodservices started charging a meal package to those who wanted it, and they basically paid everyone minimum wages with 6 hours of required overtime. They called this new pay arrangement "salaried staff paid on an hourly basis" --- which was an outright contradiction in terms and a lie. What they were really doing was paying minimum wage for 40 hours and allowing 6 hours at time and a half as a way to hide that they were still dishing out peanuts for pay and they want to entice staff...so what better way than to obfuscate matters than make up contradictary statements....typical way international dishonesty. Everyone was required to put in 46 hours a week period. Each cabinet area had an overtime bank that we alloted and double time could be approved if needed...snowremoval for example...but anything over 52 hours required director approval. To be fair an individual would make better money if they had a good skill set...I had a good skill set, was actually salaried, was in the upper ecehelon of idiots and still was able to put my family on medicaid with out a hitch.
Now, I don't know if TWI ever paid a pension or paid attention...haha..but I do know that they came up with a fairly cheesy and mostly useless 401k retirement plan. It was heavily tiered towards seniority so all the lifers and old timers came out ok considering the cost of living in New Knoxville. I don't know the employer/employee match ratios only that it wasnt much and was heavily tilted to take care of the directors and long serving staffers. They also came up with a PTO plan and insurance. Again PTO was heavily based on seniority...first year staffers got 40 hours of PTO and that was for anytime off...genorous no? The lame @$$ insurance plan had a $10,000 lifetime max and afterwards they would show you how to sign up for medicaid. Put it in perspective. I was a department coordinator and on the cabinet and my entire family (married couple with one child) went on medicaid without so much as a hitch. Thats how poorly we were paid after the need basis stuff went by the wayside.
Now: I am completly sure that the directors take care of each other, even when they fired craig I understand he got a salary for a number of years. Im sure Rosalie, Donna, John Reynolds, Howard...Im sure they are all plugged and taken care of. The rest of us were plebes, even ones like myself who were in the upper leadership brackets, walking around with an ego the size of texas and worked half to death were still getting screwed over.
Field leadership are volunteers unless you meet requirements to be paid staff. At which point you are considered paid staff and everything I noted above applies and the staff handbook would apply in full force, which means you had better protections from harassment and such. Volunteers get none of that and have no system of redress and have to just eat $h!t to remain way corps. Now, I left twi in 2008 so this is not current events. Im not sure what changes have been made, what improvements have happened. When I was on staff there was an ongoing exodus and very few people wanted to come work at HQ because word gets around that the way international largely ignores it's fiduciary responsibiities to their staff...except what they absolutely have to provide...and at that they provide the bare minimum. Maybe thats changed....my department had 18 people and within 5 years, through attrition, we were staffed with 9 people. I literally had to figure out how to get it done with half the people needed to meet requirements. I understand that staff levels are lower than when I was around and even back then they started bringing in advanced class grads to staff the advanced classes and their only compensation was meals and sitting through the class again. Perhaps with less staff they have started paying better...but I wont speculate anything along those lines because whether right, wrong, I try to avoid baselss speculation like assuming the way international will do the right thing and realize that the laborer is worthy of his hire.
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Twinky
Perhaps it's time for someone to access their public financial accounts again. See what their current reserves/cash in hand are, and what's been paid out in salaries.
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OldSkool
They figured out how to get around stating their assets on public filings. I havent tried too hard lately and probably will again in the future...but after I had posted the numbers here back in 2009 or so they ceased revealing those tasty little morsels...
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chockfull
Yes non profits were required to show their books in the state of Arizona I remember. So you could see the reports through the fog years. I don’t remember but thought they may have actually got rid of the state bookstore to get around this requirement.
Most non profits make their books transparent. Sheesh even the ex President Trump was forced to disclose financials.
Who doesn’t show their books as a non profit? Organizations with something to hide, to the extent they are afraid of losing their non profit status.
Hidden books are never a good thing.
I never received compensation for much of anything as field Corps. We were mostly “putting together classes” through most of my time. Pension? Lol. Not even gas reimbursement or enough approved expense to do anything even hold meetings. I remember so many times having to search for a new meeting place because the apartment complex raised their big room rental prices because they really don’t want it used as a church. Or fire houses free to use were the biggest. Or libraries.
And the biggest evil impact was to my own mind, corralled into looking at every person in society I ran across like a piece of meat with the potential to be a new student in the class. There was no way anybody put classes together outside of a hard sell, and usually that was with people with major apparent problems.
People seldom want to go to a regular church that is mainstream not culty and does spend money locally.
So the pressure to “run a class” was always there. And various methods were used to keep that going, from “Word Over The World” slogans, to getting “extra help” to put together classes which usually meant non local people bringing the homeless to fellowship. I remember top leaders giving admonitions to witness to people with “teeth a car and a job” as that was mostly missing in many of the new student groups.
With all of the underlying factors still in place it is completely ludicrous to think that a nicer person is going to change that substantially. Maybe for a short time. But probably not even that.
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Rocky
My understanding is said public data was accessed from filings twi made to the Arizona Corporation Commission. However, years ago, the Arizona Legislature changed disclosure requirements such that ostensible nonprofits like twi no longer need to so disclose.
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OldSkool
Thanks!! I think either one may have been at play, but the disclosure requirements changing makes sense as well. Closing the bookstore is plausible as well...they love their paying their retainers...lol...sounds just like something a lawyer would advise.
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Twinky
I can understand payment on a "need" basis - as long as it applies to everyone - especially those at the helm! Can you see VPW, Craig or Rosalie living on a need basis? Or the other head honchos? Nah, me neither. Can't speak for Vern; he was on staff and thus paid on a "need" basis.
And the "need" needs to be fully costed - including provision for current needs (reliable cars, family time including ability to visit distant family) - and future needs, especially retirement planning.
God gives generously. Therefore, there is no need to pay stingily. Such is not reflective of God's abundance.
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OldSkool
Yeah that never happened...for a young single apprentice corps guy the told me what my need was...never an interview process or anything to actually determine what my need actally was.
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Rocky
Arizona doesn't have a state bookstore. Never has. Not sure to what you were actually referring. But the legislature DID get rid of the nonprofit financial reporting requirement. The records were kept by the AZ Corporation Commission. They didn't get rid of the ACC either. It's established by the state constitution and it primarily regulates utility rates. It won't be eliminated anytime soon.
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chockfull
No I believe they disbanded the TWI in state bookstore to avoid the reporting requirements. Yes they along with most states run a bookstore for TWI or used to. I do think the law changed after that. I’m not referring to state government entities.
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