Great Principle Whitewashed?

[Mike]

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Edited 3 times to sound plausible.  Not buying it.

 

Hello again, chockful.
I just wanted to re-write, possibly making this a 4th edit, some of my response to you above:

I have been open and honest about VPW causing problems at TWI. 

Where I differ from most here is:
I am not primarily focused on VPW’s sin and his problems. 

Nor do I count all of his teachings as tainted by his problems.

Some of VPW’s teachings are tainted by his flesh, but I think they are located more in the old Corps tapes and in his campfire sharings, or private conversations.

I understand (but not sure) that some of his musings on Corps tapes were deleted from the University of Life versions of same. 

But of course, many of these unrecorded words of his did leak out to the grad population and were circulated.  In my early years I was an eager recipient at times, of these kinds of leakages of the more private sharings of VPW. 

I have a large essay cooking, and have posted early partial drafts here of years ago, on the topic of “Private Conversations With VPW.”  I feel such things have severely polluted the TVTs we all were exposed to.  (TVT = Twi Verbal Traditions)

Unlike most here:
I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and the 1942 promise, and teaching it to us.

When VPW was out of fellowship, that working relationship was seriously impaired. 

This same exact process works for us.

God is just always FAITHFULLY waiting for us to return to a rich fellowship with Him, so we can work most efficiently with Him on His projects, and gain a marvelously great view of the Return, as we attempt to fill the empty shoes of the physically absent Christ, by the authority of the ever present Christ, spiritually within us. 

What I believe is that when VPW was out of fellowship, most of his team of helpers with the books and magazine articles and live teachings were in fellowship. 

Some of his SNT tapes were bland, compared to others. Maybe that was due to the defects in his old man nature and walk that week. It happens to us all… except the religious goodie-goodies.   And it really happens to them, just more subtly and more intensely.  We ALL are in that Romans 7 boat of Oh! wretched men that we are.

I got to know some of these people that were VPW’s helpers very personally. What I learned from my face-to-face years with VPW, his family, and his 400 head count of staff at HQ, was that we all were doing our best to walk in fellowship with God, and to magnify each other’s efforts, and overlook others (and our own) shortcomings, and do our best to get the Word out. 

We also, each and every one of us, failed miserably at this at times.

I so thank God for the First Epistle of John.

I noticed last week that a chapter in the Gospel of John (15?) that read a lot like this Epistle. It was fun.  This Epistle rescued me from RC guilt that was massive in my era of the 1950s.  That organization changed a lot since then, but in my day it was a pure Mary and guilt religion. It was just a week or two into my first twig that I was led through that whole Epistle, verse by verse.

 

[cman]

Well....there's the old "in fellowship/out of fellowship" doctrine....

1 John is not lining up with that old doctrine.

Edited January 4, 2023 by cman

[Bolshevik]

10 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Hello again, chockful.
I just wanted to re-write, possibly making this a 4th edit, some of my response to you above:

I have been open and honest about VPW causing problems at TWI. 

 

 

Where I differ from most here is:
I am not primarily focused on VPW’s sin and his problems. 

 

 

Nor do I count all of his teachings as tainted by his problems.

 

 

Some of VPW’s teachings are tainted by his flesh, but I think they are located more in the old Corps tapes and in his campfire sharings, or private conversations.

 

 

I understand (but not sure) that some of his musings on Corps tapes were deleted from the University of Life versions of same. 

But of course, many of these unrecorded words of his did leak out to the grad population and were circulated.  In my early years I was an eager recipient at times, of these kinds of leakages of the more private sharings of VPW. 

I have a large essay cooking, and have posted early partial drafts here of years ago, on the topic of “Private Conversations With VPW.”  I feel such things have severely polluted the TVTs we all were exposed to.  (TVT = Twi Verbal Traditions)

 

 

 

Unlike most here:
I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and the 1942 promise, and teaching it to us.

 

 

When VPW was out of fellowship, that working relationship was seriously impaired. 

 

 

 

This same exact process works for us.

 

 

God is just always FAITHFULLY waiting for us to return to a rich fellowship with Him, so we can work most efficiently with Him on His projects, and gain a marvelously great view of the Return, as we attempt to fill the empty shoes of the physically absent Christ, by the authority of the ever present Christ, spiritually within us. 

 

 

What I believe is that when VPW was out of fellowship, most of his team of helpers with the books and magazine articles and live teachings were in fellowship. 

 

 

Some of his SNT tapes were bland, compared to others. Maybe that was due to the defects in his old man nature and walk that week. It happens to us all… except the religious goodie-goodies.   And it really happens to them, just more subtly and more intensely.  We ALL are in that Romans 7 boat of Oh! wretched men that we are.

 

 

I got to know some of these people that were VPW’s helpers very personally. What I learned from my face-to-face years with VPW, his family, and his 400 head count of staff at HQ, was that we all were doing our best to walk in fellowship with God, and to magnify each other’s efforts, and overlook others (and our own) shortcomings, and do our best to get the Word out. 

We also, each and every one of us, failed miserably at this at times.

I so thank God for the First Epistle of John.

 

 

I noticed last week that a chapter in the Gospel of John (15?) that read a lot like this Epistle. It was fun.  This Epistle rescued me from RC guilt that was massive in my era of the 1950s.  That organization changed a lot since then, but in my day it was a pure Mary and guilt religion. It was just a week or two into my first twig that I was led through that whole Epistle, verse by verse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VPW CAUSING PROBLEMS IS INDEED A GREAT PRINCIPLE 

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Blame is not the game I am playing; it is solutions. 

To WHOM is it written? To anyone who gives two hoots?

It's a noble sentiment, but really, is ANYONE who cares reading any of what you write?

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

This same exact process works for us.

Who is us? Are you imagining you're reaching out to everyone in every twig (or home) fellowship?

You DO know your audience here is much different, right?

When are you going to address your GSC parasite role?

I wish you great success figuring out a way to reach your INTENDED, IMAGINED, HOPED FOR audience.

[Charity]

2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

 

Well from the verses, I don't see two spirits, Father speaking to newly created spirit.

I see Jesus speaking to a Spirit sent by Jesus, The Son.  And the Spirit glorifies Jesus and all that belongs to The Father belongs to Jesus.

 

 

Ah. . . . . I see Trinitarian trickery . . . grab a concordance and some gloves . . .

Thanks Bolshevik, I've been doing more thinking on this. 

 

According to John 16, Jesus is the "source of or behind" everything that the spirit of truth would say and do.  This was the same deal with Jesus and his Father.  Jesus, after he received the spirit of God when he was baptized, always said that everything he did and said was what his Father showed or told him to do and say. 

The point to this is that the focus is on the "source" from whom all knowledge and power originates.

 

Now compare this to what the article found on twi's website (as shown on the first page of this thread) says.  "The great principle (GP) we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out."  Where is the focus placed?

If I edited the above as follows - "The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your (His) spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out as you listen to and obey God...

- you'd get is "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you. Then His spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm  as you listen to and obey Him."   We're still in there, but God, not us, is the focus.

It's like what's been posted time and time again - twi wants the focus to be on us because they know our focus is on them as our teachers of the accuracy of God's Word, all of which replaces the absent Christ. 

New question is if it's significant whether the spirit of truth is an "it" as in twi's GP or an "he" as in the Bible.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Charity

[Mike]

47 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Who is us? Are you imagining you're reaching out to everyone in every twig (or home) fellowship?

You DO know your audience here is much different, right?

When are you going to address your GSC parasite role?

I wish you great success figuring out a way to reach your INTENDED, IMAGINED, HOPED FOR audience.

I had written, and you quoted:
“This same exact process works for us.”

You asked:
Who is us? Are you imagining you're reaching out to everyone in every twig (or home) fellowship?

No. In that one group of sentences, “us” refers to all human beings, at all times.

That group of sentences says God is loving in the way He works with all us human beings, at all times. I went on to say, that when any of us are in fellowship with God, He is able to do much with and for us. He is much more limited, and can’t really talk to us much when we are out of fellowship, walking contrary to His will.

When we walk contrary to His will then we cut ourselves off from some of his blessings and we expose ourselves to more trickery of the adversary, which was how we walked contrary to His will in the first place. 

But God makes getting back in fellowship with Him very easy, and that exposes us more to other blessings He has to help us.

This is explicitly true for believers, but we know God’s gracious blessings extend farther than just believers.

So, the “us” referred to all humans, but really strongly for believers.

*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
You DO know your audience here is much different, right?

Partially right.  The audience here is different all right, but NOT AS MUCH as you think.  We have a lot of points in common. I keep posting them and you keep saying to others to not read them.  I guess by that logic, you aren’t reading this either?

I still think lots of people come here who are proPFAL  (not nearly as much as me), and they come here for news of what is going on lately, or they come to learn the history of the distant past at TWI went down.  I was one of them in 2002.

I get Private Messages PMs from about one very proPFAL person per year who either never post or dis so rarely.   I think it is a good guess there are a few more who don’t PM just like they don’t post.

Some people come here to connect with old friends, again like I did, and they may be  all shades of proPFAL, and deserve to hear another side, other than the pure evil VPW.

Another way I address this is by my preference of staying on one thread at a time.  I really blew it there over the holidays, and I apologize for that.  I am trying to get back to that.  Wish me luck.

*/*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
When are you going to address your GSC parasite role?
I am right this minute, and have been for weeks. I hope you are reading this.  :)

I wish you great success figuring out a way to reach your INTENDED, IMAGINED, HOPED FOR audience.
I will say this.  I wont be doing this for another 20 years.  I am happy with the tiny audience I do have, and I will try to be less of a parasite. 

How about you help me in this?  I’ll start posting all my responses to these threads I have backlogs on (7 folders) in one thread, the Jumping to Concussions thread.

You can help me by reminding the others when they want to converse in the too many other threads. 

It is way too complicated for me to keep up with multiple threads.

I’ll try to get back into a cage to keep the commotion down.

[waysider]

32 minutes ago, Mike said:

...when any of us are in fellowship with God, He is able to do much with and for us. He is much more limited, and can’t really talk to us much when we are out of fellowship, walking contrary to His will.

When we walk contrary to His will then we cut ourselves off from some of his blessings and we expose ourselves to more trickery of the adversary...

Would this not apply to Wierwille at the point in his life when he was producing the collaterals?

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Charity said:

Thanks Bolshevik, I've been doing more thinking on this. 

 

According to John 16, Jesus is the "source of or behind" everything that the spirit of truth would say and do.  This was the same deal with Jesus and his Father.  Jesus, after he received the spirit of God when he was baptized, always said that everything he did and said was what his Father showed or told him to do and say. 

The point to this is that the focus is on the "source" from whom all knowledge and power originates.

 

Now compare this to what the article found on twi's website (as shown on the first page of this thread) says.  "The great principle (GP) we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out."  Where is the focus placed?

If I edited the above as follows - "The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your (His) spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm AS YOU act or AS YOU speak out as you listen to and obey God...

- you'd get is "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you. Then His spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm  as you listen to and obey Him."   We're still in there, but God, not us, is the focus.

It's like what's been posted time and time again - twi wants the focus to be on us because they know our focus is on them as our teachers of the accuracy of God's Word, all of which replaces the absent Christ. 

New question is if it's significant whether the spirit of truth is an "it" as in twi's GP or an "he" as in the Bible.

 

 

 

Nice post, Charity.

Definitely part of the recipe for developing narcissist clones.  The holy spirit in GP focuses the mind judgmentally inward. 

Maybe this holy spirit is a Trojan Horse for an "inner critic"?  One would have to keep seeking "renewed mind self talk" to prop up that frail self image.  . . .  Just thinking

[So_crates]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

When we walk contrary to His will then we cut ourselves off from some of his blessings and we expose ourselves to more trickery of the adversary, which was how we walked contrary to His will in the first place. 

Two words: Saint Vic.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I still think lots of people come here who are proPFAL  (not nearly as much as me), and they come here for news of what is going on lately,

They don't know how to get to the Way website?  How did they manage to find their way here?

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I get Private Messages PMs from about one very proPFAL person per year who either never post or dis so rarely.   I think it is a good guess there are a few more who don’t PM just like they don’t post.

Only one per year, huh? For those thousands you clame PLAF blessed that's pretty slim pickings.

 

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I get Private Messages PMs from about one very proPFAL person per year

Jeepers! You'll never get a class together at that rate.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

It's like what's been posted time and time again - twi wants the focus to be on us because they know our focus is on them as our teachers of the accuracy of God's Word, all of which replaces the absent Christ.

I think that it is good and proper TEMPORARILY for new students to see whoever teaches them the foundations and the collaterals as benevolent.

After a short time, the new student can learn to use the collaterals for herself to see the Epistles and the rest of the Word. Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.

But, as so many temporary taxes morph into permanent ones, so this student dependency on the ministry is milked by corrupted ministry traditions and practices. and made permanent.

[Bolshevik]

49 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think that it is good and proper TEMPORARILY for new students to see whoever teaches them the foundations and the collaterals as benevolent.

After a short time, the new student can learn to use the collaterals for herself to see the Epistles and the rest of the Word. Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.

But, as so many temporary taxes morph into permanent ones, so this student dependency on the ministry is milked by corrupted ministry traditions and practices. and made permanent.

You literally just described how "The Word" is The Bible interpreted through a filter.

[Charity]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think that it is good and proper TEMPORARILY for new students to see whoever teaches them the foundations and the collaterals as benevolent.

After a short time, the new student can learn to use the collaterals for herself to see the Epistles and the rest of the Word. Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.

But, as so many temporary taxes morph into permanent ones, so this student dependency on the ministry is milked by corrupted ministry traditions and practices. and made permanent.

Mike, I cannot see this ever happening because of the corrupted ministry traditions, practices and doctrines which continue to this very day.  It are these things that cause TEMPORARILY new students to "morph into permanent ones."  This belief is based on my experiences in and knowledge about twi. 

1.  There was harsh judgment and subsequent consequences for anyone who questioned what twi taught.  Why do you think "after still more time" in the ministry, so many people did not see or if they did see, did not stand up and speak about the error in twi's "Great Principle?"  It actually took people leaving twi before they could openly question, discuss and realize the inaccuracy in this or any other doctrine.

2.  You wrote, "After a short time, the new student can learn to use the collaterals for herself to see the Epistles and the rest of the Word."  Okay, now the new student no longer needs to be spoon fed pfal by teachers, but she still has to use the pfal callaterals if she wants to see the Epistles and the rest of the word for herself.  In other words, the umbilical cord is still there. 

I'm not sure what "use the collaterals" even means, but almost everything new I learned throughout my years in twi was from their other classes, Sunday Night Service (SNS) tapes, the monthly way magazine and new book publications (all of which I had to pay for). 

BTW, isn't the current twi doing some type of the old "Word over the World (WOW)" ambassador program?  I went wow "a short time" after taking the pfal class (about half a year later) because of the spiritual growth I was told I would experience.  It's been almost 50 years since my year on the field, so I don't remember a lot of details, but what I do remember is that the year was basically based on pfal - living with other pfal grads and all of us witnessing and teaching from the collaterals and trying to put pfal classes together.  Like I said: umbilical cord...still there.

3.  You wrote, "Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.  Mike, you know this is only allowed if this new "nourishment" agrees with twi's doctrines.  If not, your leaders will not be happy campers. 

The first time I really studied something "far from any collaterals" by myself, it was about tithing.  After 12 years, I dared to think of myself as "mature enough" to do this.  The nourishment I did receive was to learn that the "law of tithing" doctrine in "Christians Should be Prosperous" was not only inaccurate but also detrimental (harmful, damaging, hurtful) to believer's financial, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being.

Mike, I highly doubt that much has changed since my involvement in twi.

 

 

 
 

[Mike]

25 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

You literally just described how "The Word" is The Bible interpreted through a filter.

 

25 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

You literally just described how "The Word" is The Bible interpreted through a filter.

There is a better analogy, very similar to the filter or the rose colored glasses.

The analogy I use is the collaterals forming a necessary God-provided window into the Bible.  If it were merely a VPW provided window, I'd not be interested.

Such a window is necessary because centuries of obfuscations hiding and burying the Word under the "temple debris," like in the OT.

Example: PFAL teaches zero consciousness immediately after death. Even the KJV has oodles of verses that say this plain as day, yet religion misses it systematically.  That the dead are not alive is a necessary component of the "filter" or the "binoculars"  or "window" that is necessary to read the Bible with understanding.

There are other components to this window:  body/soul/spirit, new birth, Return of Christ, heaven bound, extra rewards, SIT and 8 other manifestations, seated in the heavenlies, agape love,  Romans 10:9.... there are about 10 more, I think.  I made a list somewhere.

[Bolshevik]

23 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

There is a better analogy, very similar to the filter or the rose colored glasses.

The analogy I use is the collaterals forming a necessary God-provided window into the Bible.  If it were merely a VPW provided window, I'd not be interested.

Such a window is necessary because centuries of obfuscations hiding and burying the Word under the "temple debris," like in the OT.

Example: PFAL teaches zero consciousness immediately after death. Even the KJV has oodles of verses that say this plain as day, yet religion misses it systematically.  That the dead are not alive is a necessary component of the "filter" or the "binoculars"  or "window" that is necessary to read the Bible with understanding.

There are other components to this window:  body/soul/spirit, new birth, Return of Christ, heaven bound, extra rewards, SIT and 8 other manifestations, seated in the heavenlies, agape love,  Romans 10:9.... there are about 10 more, I think.  I made a list somewhere.

You're saying the Bible cannot be understood without dozens of pieces of information provided first.

God provided an Enigma Machine, which VPW carried through the lines, in the form of books he copied from other people.

These plagiarized books are needed to truly understand the most famous and common book in world history?

[Mike]

14 minutes ago, Charity said:

Mike, I cannot see this ever happening because of the corrupted ministry traditions, practices and doctrines which continue to this very day.  ...

3.  You wrote, "Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.  Mike, you know this is only allowed if this new "nourishment" agrees with twi's doctrines.  If not, your leaders will not be happy campers. 

Mike, I highly doubt that much has changed since my involvement in twi.

Hi Charity.  You began and ended your post with:
Mike, I cannot see this ever happening because of the corrupted ministry traditions, practices and doctrines which continue to this very day.  ...  Mike, I highly doubt that much has changed since my involvement in twi.
-I reluctantly agree that TWI-4 inherited some skeletons in the closets, and that changing that is difficult. We can pray for them at HQ, and wait and see, and reach out in love to them.  This strategy has done me well these past years for my contacts with local leaders and with scattered Internet thinkers still in TWI.

I am rooting for HQ to be as together as what I saw on the field.

*/*/*/*/*/*

You wrote, "Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.  Mike, you know this is only allowed if this new "nourishment" agrees with twi's doctrines.  If not, your leaders will not be happy campers. 

Yes, and rightly so in many cases.  I was a twig leader twice, and had to deal with  one or two doctrinal trouble makers over the years who were disrupting the learning and focus of others on the collaterals. I find that the corruptions and the traditions we agreed upon above had not penetrated the collaterals, so the nourishment was good when collaterals were the focus.

I know that TWI’s doctrines and traditions have some timed deviated from the collaterals. But the big message is that God gave us a boost in the murky field of Bibles and translations and manuscripts.  I am not a happy camper when I see people taking shots at the collaterals, but I know many of the practices and traditions and teachings of all the TWI administrations have inherent human problems.

[Charity]

59 minutes ago, Mike said:

Hi Charity.  You began and ended your post with:
Mike, I cannot see this ever happening because of the corrupted ministry traditions, practices and doctrines which continue to this very day.  ...  Mike, I highly doubt that much has changed since my involvement in twi.
-I reluctantly agree that TWI-4 inherited some skeletons in the closets, and that changing that is difficult. We can pray for them at HQ, and wait and see, and reach out in love to them.  This strategy has done me well these past years for my contacts with local leaders and with scattered Internet thinkers still in TWI.

I am rooting for HQ to be as together as what I saw on the field.

 

 

*/*/*/*/*/*

 

 

You wrote, "Then, after still more time, any Bible version can be opened far from any collaterals, and the matured student receive nourishment.  Mike, you know this is only allowed if this new "nourishment" agrees with twi's doctrines.  If not, your leaders will not be happy campers. 

 

Yes, and rightly so in many cases.  I was a twig leader twice, and had to deal with  one or two doctrinal trouble makers over the years who were disrupting the learning and focus of others on the collaterals. I find that the corruptions and the traditions we agreed upon above had not penetrated the collaterals, so the nourishment was good when collaterals were the focus.

 

I know that TWI’s doctrines and traditions have some timed deviated from the collaterals. But the big message is that God gave us a boost in the murky field of Bibles and translations and manuscripts.  I am not a happy camper when I see people taking shots at the collaterals, but I know many of the practices and traditions and teachings of all the TWI administrations have inherent human problems.

 

 

Thanks for your reply Mike.  I did an online jigsaw puzzle after my last post and I was thinking all the while that your reply would basically be what you said in your last 2 paragraphs.  I see, therefore, that no more discussions with you are needed when it comes to the collaterals as you believe they are inherently perfect.

That only leaves you with the knowledge that "many of the practices and traditions and teachings of all the TWI administrations have inherent human problems" which you admit are difficult to change.  You have decided on your course of action as to how you can perhaps help these changes happen and in the meantime, you are happy with what local fellowship you have now. 

So again, I see no further need for discussion on these matters with you.  Let me know, however, if there are any real changes at HQ.  God bless you Mike.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Charity

[Rocky]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

I still think [IMAGINE, without data to back up your wishful thinking] lots of people come here who are proPFAL  (not nearly as much as me), and they come here for news of what is going on lately, or they come to learn the history of the distant past at TWI went down

Self-awareness would go a LONGGGGG way to helping you NOT act like a parasite here. The problem is you hitch a ride on someone else's website. A website on which you hijack threads for a purpose diametrically opposed to the website's purpose.

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

I think [FANTASIZE] that it is good and proper TEMPORARILY for new students to see whoever teaches them the foundations and the collaterals as benevolent.

Not only do you describe a total FANTASY of FANTASTIC proportions (again, you're a PARASITE) you're arguing a rationalized self-justification for stealing the resources of this website.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

That only leaves you with the knowledge that "many of the practices and traditions and teachings of all the TWI administrations have inherent human problems" which you admit are difficult to change.  You have decided on your course of action as to how you can perhaps help these changes happen and in the meantime, you are happy with what local fellowship you have now. 

So again, I see no further need for discussion on these matters with you.

Mistletoe Mike "decided" no such thing. He has dedicated the last 20 years of his life to writing, piecemeal, a fictive story, completely the product of his FANTASTICAL IMAGINATION. And he has conned "many people," most significantly, himself. 

[WordWolf]

14 hours ago, Mike said:

 

(snip)

 

Unlike most here:
I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and the 1942 promise, and teaching it to us.

(snip)

 

[There was no 1942 Promise.  You're the only one here who doesn't seem to know that, It's been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt.  It just doesn't work once it's looked at. The only way one can believe it is to hide from all actual discussions about why it's false, dogmatically cling to an insistence it's true because I want it to be true,  and pretend one can shoot holes in the rather airtight case that there was no actual 1942 promise.]

[OldSkool]

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

 

[There was no 1942 Promise.  You're the only one here who doesn't seem to know that, It's been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt.  It just doesn't work once it's looked at. The only way one can believe it is to hide from all actual discussions about why it's false, dogmatically cling to an insistence it's true because I want it to be true,  and pretend one can shoot holes in the rather airtight case that there was no actual 1942 promise.]

The way international officially recognizes the faillure of the 1942 promise by scrubbing every record of it from every form of media they currently publish. Go ahead Mike --- I appreciate that you come here and help pull victor paul wierwille's past out into the light. The directors would not want this publicly discussed. Kudos Mikie!

[chockfull]

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

 

[There was no 1942 Promise.  You're the only one here who doesn't seem to know that, It's been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt.  It just doesn't work once it's looked at. The only way one can believe it is to hide from all actual discussions about why it's false, dogmatically cling to an insistence it's true because I want it to be true,  and pretend one can shoot holes in the rather airtight case that there was no actual 1942 promise.]

The 1942 promise is just one more example of bait and switch.  The story is out there in verbal legend and gets repeated all the time witnessing to new people to build up some kind of reason for them to take a video class in someone’s house not a church.  

But as you say, no official support for the story as the top leaders all know it to be false.  

It’s a lot like their “Statement of Beliefs” on the website.  Many statements masked to look like a mainstream denomination.  

If you have the goods there is no need to bait and switch.  That only comes in as a desperate move when you don’t have the goods.

[cman]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

Example: PFAL teaches zero consciousness immediately after death. Even the KJV has oodles of verses that say this plain as day, yet religion misses it systematically.  That the dead are not alive is a necessary component of the "filter" or the "binoculars"  or "window" that is necessary to read the Bible with understanding.

There are other components to this window:  body/soul/spirit, new birth, Return of Christ, heaven bound, extra rewards, SIT and 8 other manifestations, seated in the heavenlies, agape love,  Romans 10:9.... there are about 10 more, I think.

Good summation there Mike.

I take issue with each one. I disagree with a lot of it